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Creative Corner => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Topic started by: oslecamo on November 06, 2011, 08:51:03 PM

Title: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on November 06, 2011, 08:51:03 PM
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg138/oslecamo/oslecamo007/4945136509_57188acfe1_o_zpsc624unmf.jpg~original)
(http://htp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_veR0kQKWgbQ/TJKMjHBLW_I/AAAAAAAAAgk/ebe99nQoB18/s1600/zergRush.jg)
The zergs show that quantity has a quality of its own.

Intro
Well, as any D&D player may have noticed, it's really hard to make large number of small enemies threaten players once they start reaching higher levels.

It would be really cool if you could put your 10th level party against a hundred level 1 orc warriors, but the batle would be really one sided as the casters fly and drop nukes and the orcs can, at best, hit the party members on nat 20s, plus no sane DM wants to roll attacks, saves and iniatives for one hundred orcs, not to mention the models.

And the players wouldn't even get experience.

The good news is that DMG 2 gave us the mob template, which turns that group of commoners into actualy something dangerous.

The bad news is that, like everything else in DMG2, it kinda sucks. Ok, it's probably the best thing in the book, and the only reason any D&D player should bother reading it, but the template itself really could use some work. It's a great idea and so I decided to properly polish it.

So I present you:

Mob (template)
An angry mob represents a group of creatures that band together with a single destructive mentality. Like killing someone or taking down a city.

A mob is treated as a single entity similar to a swarm, except that it is made of larger creatures. A mob can be composed of Small, Medium, or Large creatures, but all the individual creatures must be of the same type. A mob that incorporates a crowd of goblins and a crowd of chokers is best modeled by two separate mobs.

“Mob” is an acquired template that can be added to any group of Small, Medium, or Large creatures who choose to form a mob. A mob uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Unless noted otherwise, all of the mob abilities are ex abilities.

Summarized version:
(click to show/hide)

Detailed version
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on November 06, 2011, 08:52:02 PM
Led Mob (template)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg138/oslecamo/Extras/mob-1.png~original)
This aspiring chaos champion knows well that even with his power armor and genetic enanchments, a wall of weak traitor guardsmen is still a valuable asset.

Some mobs form up spontaneously, each individual following the other whitout anyone being really in control, and just trampling over whatever they feel like.

Other mobs aren't as random. Specialy charismatic and/or brutal individuals may manage to gather a group of weaker minded individuals around them, and then use them as a blunt tool.

Altough still unable to perform sophisticated actions, a Led Mob is considerably stronger when it has someone pointing it where to go.
Unless where otherwise noted, a Led Mob works exactly as a regular Mob

Creation: Anyone wanting to become the center of a Led Mob (therefore refered as the Leader), must
(click to show/hide)
Hands free: The Leader decides the actions of the Led Mob as a free action each turn, allowing him to use his own actions to his own devices. The only limitation is that the Leader counts as having spent a move action if the Led Mob also moves. The Leader cannot make Aoos, but it can attack anyone in reach of the Led Mob.

Above all others: The Led Mob protects the Leader at all costs, puting themselves between him and incoming attacks. The Leader counts as having total cover and cannot be targeted by any means, but is still being able to observe his surroundings and target other creatures.

If an attack roll against a mob results on a natural 20, the attacker may choose to attack the enemy Leader instead of the Led Mob. Roll again, but this time agains the Leader statistics. If the attacker has any kind of precision damage dices like sneack attack, it needs only to roll 20-X, where X is the number of precision dice they have. So for example a 19th rogue with 10 sneack attack dice would only need to roll 10-20 to be able to target the leader. Conditions for the precision dice to work must be met (normaly Mob flatfooted). The Leader himself never takes the extra precision damage, is just easier to target.

If the Led mob gets hit by area attacks, the Leader only takes damage if the Led Mob rolls a natural 1 on the save.

If an enemy is inside the mob, it may attack the Leader in melee with a 50% miss chance. If the attack misses due to this, it hits the Led Mob instead.

Leadership: By not performing any other actions that would demand speaking, the leader may shout orders, advice and/or threats at the mass around him to make them fight better. In this case the mob adds the leader best mental stat bonus modifier to all saves, DCs, attacks, skill checks, ability checks and damage rolls (multiply by the BAB factor).

Momentum: If the Leader dies or willingly leaves the Led Mob, it reverts back to a normal Mob, and the Leader must again meet the pre-requisites of creating the Led Mob if he wants to join them again.

CR: Same as the base Mob+Leader's CRs (minimum +1 of the highest between them).
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on November 06, 2011, 08:52:37 PM
Unit(template)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg138/oslecamo/oslecamo007/Elf20Army_zps7fekq56l.jpg~original)
(http://htp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3317/3267255682_b5e10835ce.jpg?v=0)
Even squishy elves become a threat when properly organized


Trough training and careful coordination, a unit allows for the whole to be greater than the sum of the part. On the other hand, a single weak member may easily cripple or destroy the unit from inside, meaning that quality is as important as quantity when choosing its members.

Creation:
(click to show/hide)

Unless otherwise noted, a unit works as a mob

HP: As a mob, but add any HD gained from levels from the members as well. So for example a mob of ten lv5 human fighters would have 50 HD.

Abilities: A unit retains it's mental ability scores. If its members have different mental scores, use the lowest ones.

Speed: As the slowest creature on the unit. The members of a unit are trained to march in synchronization.

BAB: Use the lowest among the members of the unit.

Saves: Use the lowest among members of the unit.

Discipline: A unit gains a bonus on its saves, AC, skills, Trample damage, Mob up damage (before multiplying) and ability checks equal to its size modifier(+4 for large, +8 for huge, ect)

Unit Anatomy: Unlike a mob, a unit is vulnerable to critical hits and precision damage as it's strength comes from it's careful formation. Otherwise this works exactly as Mob Anatomy.

Wall of bodies: A unit keeps a tight cohesive formation, meaning it can choose to stop other creatures from moving inside it.

Wall of blades: A unit deals mob up damage to all creatures within it's reach at the end of each of it's turns. In addition, a Unit with reach weapons (like spears or pole arms) always threaten both the adjacent squares and reach squares.

Tactics: A unit may use activated abilities from it's members, as long as they coordinate themselves carefully.

As a swift action one member of the unit may use an activated ability it possesses. Others may help, up the following maximum number:
large: 2 combined members.
huge: 3 combined members.
gargantuan: 4 combined members.
colossal: 6 combined members.

For each extra member beyond the first, the ability counts as being two level higher for all levels purposes and its DCs increase by 2 as well. So 3 lv5 wizards with 16 int each casting fireball at the same time from inside an unit would cast a single fireball dealing 9d6 damage counting as CL9 and with a DC of 10+3+3+2+2=20

CR:
Large:5, or +4 if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR 2 or higher.
Huge:7, or +4  if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR is 4 or higher.
Gargantuan:10, or +4  if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR 7 or higher.
Colossal:14,  or +4 if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR 11 or higher.



Led Unit (template)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/Fernot/Army.jpg~original)
This undead army became much fiercer once it had an undead general to command it.

Putting a talented leader into the middle of a unit makes for the ultimate formation. This individual inspires and commands it's subordinate in battle.

Creation:
(click to show/hide)

Otherwise a led unit works exactly as a led mob, plus it gains the following extra abilities:

Command: Leading an unit is no easy task. At the beginning of each turn the leader must make a skill check (which skill dependant of the DM) with a DC of 10+unit's CR+1 per each 10% missing HP from the Unit:

Fail- Neither the led unit nor the leader may take no actions this turn.
Succeed- the led unit may act as normal but the leader can't take any actions except the leadership ability.
Succeed by 5 or more- as above, but the leader can take a partial action.
Succeed by 10 or more- as above, but the leader can take actions normally.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on November 06, 2011, 08:53:04 PM
Unit Feat Conversion

Several feats warriors usually take suddenly become useless when in a mob or unit, but the later can put them to good use.

Wedge Formation (Power attack): the Unit points all his members towards a single point to inflict maximum damage on a target, but they let themselves vulnerable to an attack from other oponents. As a fullround action, the unit performs a charge as per the normal rules (including taking a -2 penalty to AC), except at the end the Mob Up damage it deals is multiplied on the following manner (don't apply the normaly multiplier):

1/2 BAB:multiply by 2
3/4 BAB: multiply by 3
Full BAB:multiply by 4

In adition, if you use Wedge Formation on another Unit or Mob, you may atempt a bullrush atempth as a free action. If you suceed, the other Mob/Unit is split in two, each with half it's members, separated by a distance equal to your Unit's face (so a Large Unit would leave beind a 10-foot separation). If it was a led Mob/Unit, the leader remains on an half of his choice. You may then continue to move up to your max Charge range. The split mobs/units may join again by spending both a fullround action to get togheter.

Turtle Formation(Tower Shield Proficiency): This formation demands all the members to be equiped with tower shields and be proefecient with them. As an immediate action, the members of the Unit may raise their shields togheter to gain total cover from any and all ranged attacks, including magic ones, untill the start of their next turn, but all their movement speeds are reduced by half for 1 round.

Iron Wall (combat reflexes): The Unit's weapons create a dangerous barrier. Oponents hit by their attacks of oportunity have all their speeds reduced by half for 1 round.

Spread Up (combat expertise): The Unit's discipline allows it to spread out it's members whitout sacrificing any power. It may, as a swift action, become one size larger, gaining all the apropriate bonus and penalties, or return to normal (ability scores and natural armor always remain the same tough).

Leader Feat Conversion

In a similar way that an Unit can give new use to old feats, so do Leaders can apply their expertise to their forces

Combat blessing (recquires Combat Casting):When beings band togheter a special bond if formed between them. You can infuse that bond with magic. If you cast a spell while leading a mob/unit, you may have it affect all its members, including buffs to equipment such as magic weapon and greater magic vestment. If you leave the mob/unit or it disperses, the spell ends.

Warlord (recquires weapon focus and specialization in the same weapon): You show your men how it's done. If the Unit/mob you're leading now is using the same weapon you have Focus and specialization in, increase their damage multiplier by 1.

Glory in Battle (recquires Improved Critical): Whenever you threaten a critical hit with the weapon you have Improved Critical with, you do it in a spectacular way, filling your forces with bloodlust. They gain +1 moral bonus on Saves and damage rolls for every 2 HD of the target you were attacking (if a mob was damaged, use the HD of it's weakest member), for 1 round. Minimum +1 morale bonus.

Fighter Leaders: A  Fighter 3 may grant one of his feats to all it's Unit/Mob members for as long as he leads them. For every two extra Fighter levels he has, he may grant one extra feat.

Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Agrippa on May 15, 2012, 12:15:48 AM
I really like the mob rules revision you made, oslecamo, even though I've never seen the original DMG II rules. I'll use them as soon as I get the chance. Though I do have one problem with your thread. What I'm talking about is a lack of proper spacing. By the way, why don't make a PDF of these templates?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: veekie on May 15, 2012, 01:58:32 AM
Sorta wonder what a special attack mob should look like. A Unit of warlocks/dragonfire adepts would be a sight to see.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on May 19, 2012, 06:19:30 PM
I really like the mob rules revision you made, oslecamo, even though I've never seen the original DMG II rules. I'll use them as soon as I get the chance. Though I do have one problem with your thread. What I'm talking about is a lack of proper spacing. By the way, why don't make a PDF of these templates?

Thanks! However formating isn't exactly my strong point, and free time is a precious commodity nowadays. You're however free to clean it up and I'll post it.

As for pdfs, you're the first person asking for it honestly. You really think people would want it?

Sorta wonder what a special attack mob should look like. A Unit of warlocks/dragonfire adepts would be a sight to see.
Yes, it would. Guess I'll get that draft lingering on my notes finished sometime this weekend! :P
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on May 20, 2012, 01:54:32 PM
Supernatural Mob
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg138/oslecamo/Extras/e60a524b1cd7dc07633043b9c67403db.png~original)
They may be mooks, but they're mooks with lasers!

Normally the members of a mob just mindlessly trample and hack at whatever's in range, completely disregarding their own abilities. However when the mob is composed of individuals with similar supernatural abilities, it's possible for them channel them even in the midst of chaos, spreading even greater destruction all around.

“Supernatural Mob” is an acquired template that can be added to any group of Small, Medium, or Large creatures, all of which have an equal Su ability that works at range and who chooses to form a mob.

Unless otherwise noticed, a Supernatural Mob works exactly as a normal Mob.
 
Laser Storm: The members of a Supernatural Mob go around shooting eldritch blasts or unleashing energy breaths over anyone who gets close. The Supernatural Mob may use a supernatural ranged attack (either area or demanding an attack roll) they all share against any enemy who comes inside range as a free action even if it isn't their turns, as if used by one of its members. Ignore “cool downs”. No creature may be affected by Laser Storm more than 1/round.

Laser Up: Anyone who finds himself a Supernatural Mob finds themselves under a merciless barrage of blasts. At the end of each of its turns, instead of Mob Up damage, the Supernatural Mob may unleash a supernatural ranged attack (either area or demanding an attack roll) they all share against any enemies inside it. For every size category the supernatural mob is bigger than medium, they gain a +3 bonus on any attack roll, increase any save DCs by 3 and count the ability as coming from a  being three levels higher than the mob members for damage purposes. So for example a mob of 8 warlocks 1 with 16 Cha all knowing Frightful Blast would deal 2d6 damage and force a DC 16 will save or become Shaken, and they would gain a +3 bonus on the to-hit roll. A mob of 30 warlocks 1 would deal 4d6 damage and force a DC 19 or become shaken and gain +6 to attack.

CR: As a normal mob composed of the same individuals +1.

A supernatural mob may be led as a normal mob.


Supernatural Unit

(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg138/oslecamo/Extras/SithMarauders-TORtrailer.jpg~original)
Just because you've sold your soul and heart to eldritch forces and want to destroy everything, doesn't mean you can't work with equally-minded individuals.

Even more fearsome than a supernatural Mob, the members of a supernatural Unit coordinate themselves to wreck maximum devastation with their special abilities.

“Supernatural Unit” is an acquired template that can be added to any group of Small, Medium, or Large creatures, all of which have an equal Su ability that works at range and who chooses to form a unit.

Unless otherwise noticed, a Supernatural Unit works exactly as a normal Unit.

Greater Laser Storm: The members of a Supernatural Unit loose disciplined volleys of eldritch blasts or  energy breaths over anyone who gets close. The Supernatural Mob may use a supernatural ranged attack (either area or demanding an attack roll) they all share against any enemy who comes inside range as a free action even if it isn't their turns, as if used by one of its members. Ignore “cool downs”. No creature may be affected by Greater Laser Storm more than 1/round. They gain a +4 bonus on any attack roll, increase any save DCs by 4 and count the ability as coming from a  being four levels higher than the unit members for damage purposes.

Greater Laser Up: Anyone who finds himself a Supernatural Unit finds themselves under a merciless barrage of blasts. At the end of each of its turns, instead of Mob Up damage, the Supernatural Unit may unleash a supernatural ranged attack (either area or demanding an attack roll) they all share against any enemies inside it. For every size category the supernatural unit is bigger than medium, they gain a +4 bonus on any attack roll, increase any save DCs by 4 and count the ability as coming from a  being four levels higher than the unit members for damage purposes.

Wall of Lasers: Instead of using Wall of Blades, a supernatural unit can deals laser up damage to all creatures within its reach at the end of each of its turns.

Focused Laser Barrage: As a full round action, all the members of a Supernatural unit may use their powers at the same time targeting a single area, depending on the Supernatural unit size

Large- 5 radius circle.
Huge- 10 radius circle.
Gargantuan- 20 radius circle.
Colossal- 40 radius circle.

The range is the same as the base ability. For every size category the supernatural mob is bigger than medium, they gain a +4 bonus on any attack roll, increase any save DCs by 4 and count the ability as coming from a  being four levels higher than the unit members for damage purposes, plus an extra +2 to all of those.


CR: As a normal unit composed of the same individuals +1.

A supernatural unit may be led as a regular unit.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Agrippa on May 20, 2012, 03:37:03 PM
I really like the mob rules revision you made, oslecamo, even though I've never seen the original DMG II rules. I'll use them as soon as I get the chance. Though I do have one problem with your thread. What I'm talking about is a lack of proper spacing. By the way, why don't make a PDF of these templates?

Thanks! However formating isn't exactly my strong point, and free time is a precious commodity nowadays. You're however free to clean it up and I'll post it.

As for pdfs, you're the first person asking for it honestly. You really think people would want it?

I've already typed a cleaned up version of the basic mob template which I'll PM to you shortly. Though I'm not sure how many other people would want a PDF of this.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on May 20, 2012, 04:21:15 PM
That was a great help, thank you again!

So, no comments on the supernatural unit/mob since you're at it? :p
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Agrippa on May 20, 2012, 05:02:01 PM
That was a great help, thank you again!

So, no comments on the supernatural unit/mob since you're at it? :p

The super natural mob/units look pretty good too. But don't thank me yet, there are a few spelling and grammar mistakes I didn't catch while correcting the unit templates.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Dwarfi on May 21, 2012, 04:07:51 AM
Tyring to use this on a goblin group, but keep beeing confused on some points. Especially the size mods and the BAB stuff.

A group of 12 goblin soldiers with shortswords +1 (1d6-1) and shortbows +3 (1d8)

Mob size: large
~100-120 HP
Ini +5(impr ini)
AC normal 17 / new: 16 (-1 size)
Grapple goblins have -1 Str +4 size mod = +3 grapple ?
Bab ? how do I know the Bab of a goblin? 0 or 1 I guess, no idea how it progresses.

Mob up: I dont really get how to calculate that. The goblins have 1 BAB I guess, so no multiply. but whats with the additional dmg HD? I dont understand that part at all.
One goblin does 1d6-1 ... so what does a large mob do and why?
I try it again: 1d6-1 > 1d8-1(large weapon)
adding +4str for large creature: 1d8+3 ? Or is it +8str as a goblin is small?
As its only 1 BAB no multiplyer.
Is that correct ??

What was that with the AC = DR ? So If I have 20AC, the mob has to be able to do more than 20 dmg to actually hurt me, right ?

Volley: Same problem here.
A bow for small creatures does 1d4, for large 1d8 damage.
how does the "large" staturs affect the Dex or something for the bows calculation?

Dying goblins: Lets say the mob is hit by a fireball, usually most of them would be inst. dead. Does this affect the mob somehow or does he fight like normal till the end?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on May 21, 2012, 04:58:14 PM
Tyring to use this on a goblin group, but keep beeing confused on some points. Especially the size mods and the BAB stuff.

A group of 12 goblin soldiers with shortswords +1 (1d6-1) and shortbows +3 (1d8)

Mob size: large
~100-120 HP
Ini +5(impr ini)
AC normal 17 / new: 16 (-1 size)
Grapple goblins have -1 Str +4 size mod = +3 grapple ?
Bab ? how do I know the Bab of a goblin? 0 or 1 I guess, no idea how it progresses.
Depends on what levels they are. Goblins don't have an HD by themselves, they're a "base" race. If you check the srd entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm), you can see it actually says Goblin, 1st-Level Warrior, the NPC class. Which happens to give him Bab +1.

Mob up: I dont really get how to calculate that. The goblins have 1 BAB I guess, so no multiply. but whats with the additional dmg HD? I dont understand that part at all.
One goblin does 1d6-1 ... so what does a large mob do and why?
I try it again: 1d6-1 > 1d8-1(large weapon)
adding +4str for large creature: 1d8+3 ? Or is it +8str as a goblin is small?
As its only 1 BAB no multiplyer.
Is that correct ??
Here, let me explain with more detail:
-When I mention 1/2, 3/4 and Full bab, I mean the progression. So for example a wizard has 1/2 Bab because he only gains Bab every other level. The rogue has 3/4 Bab because he gains Bab every 3 levels in four. The fighter has Full Bab because he gains Bab every level. So if those are goblin warrior/fighter/barbarian or other class with Full bab, you multiply by 3.
-Goblins are small creatures base, so they get two size increases 1d6->1d8->2d6.
-Their ability scores don't change with size unless it's specifically monster advancment (otherwise Enlarge Person would be the supreme 1st level buff).

What was that with the AC = DR ? So If I have 20AC, the mob has to be able to do more than 20 dmg to actually hurt me, right ?
No, only your Armor and Shield bonus to AC count for your DR. So if you have a breastplate (+5 Armor bonus) and a Large Steel shield (+2 Shield bonus) you get DR 7 against the mob attacks. Don't count other bonus to AC.

Volley: Same problem here.
A bow for small creatures does 1d4, for large 1d8 damage.
how does the "large" staturs affect the Dex or something for the bows calculation?
It doesn't, again the ability scores don't change. Otherwise it follows the same calculations as the Mob Up damage.

Dying goblins: Lets say the mob is hit by a fireball, usually most of them would be inst. dead. Does this affect the mob somehow or does he fight like normal till the end?
In fluff terms, the goblins are so packed togheter that only the front ones get carbonized, and the others keep fighting like normal.

In crunch terms, yes they do keep fighting like normal until the mob HP drops to zero.

That's half the reason I created this template, since it's indeed extremely easy to wipe out mook groups with area spells and some other stuff. Notice however they do take +50% damage from area spells and double damage from melee attacks from enemies with cleave, so they're still more vulnerable to that kind of stuff that an actual single creature.

Notice that's pretty much how it works for swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm) already.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Dwarfi on May 22, 2012, 03:27:38 AM
Ah ok, thanks for the help. I will try once more to see if its all correct now:

Large Mob of 12 Goblin Warriors with 1d6-1 + Shortbows

HD: 12x10 ~100HP Large
Ini 5
Speed 10ft (original 20ft -10)
AC 16 / 11/ 15 - all clear so far

Attack: 1. Targets inside the mob auto hit + free action attack directly adj to the mob? endless Aoos 
Base weapon 1d6-1 (m) > 1d8 (large)> 2d6 (huge weapon)?
Full BAB so (2d6-1)x3 = 6d6-3 ? It that correct? Can a small goblin actually use swords/bows 1 size larger ?

Volley:1d6 (m) > 1d8 (large) = 2d6-1(huge)*3 = 6d6-3 ---- a gobblin can use a medium sword, can he use a medium bow too ?
only if no ungrappled enemy is inside the mob.
Ref DC : 10+ BAB(1) +Dex(1) =11 +range incr.(60ft)

Would be nice if you could tell me if this is correct.

A mob attack could look like this:
It moves in, passes a pc(provokes Aoo) (2d6 trample damage) and at the end of the turn does the mob up dmg.
If the pc wants to move out he gets and aoo every time he moves or one aoo from every adj. mob square ? that would be a little much.

Poisoned arrows would work the same as always I guess.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: dipolartech on May 22, 2012, 06:35:25 AM
What's that Sith photo from?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: veekie on May 22, 2012, 01:17:29 PM
Quote
If the pc wants to move out he gets and aoo every time he moves or one aoo from every adj. mob square ? that would be a little much.
One action can only provoke once from a given creature(and the mob is counted as one creature here). So however many threatened squares you move through you only get one.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on May 22, 2012, 04:32:01 PM
Ah ok, thanks for the help. I will try once more to see if its all correct now:

Large Mob of 12 Goblin Warriors with 1d6-1 + Shortbows

HD: 12x10 ~100HP Large
Ini 5
Speed 10ft (original 20ft -10)
AC 16 / 11/ 15 - all clear so far

Attack: 1. Targets inside the mob auto hit + free action attack directly adj to the mob? endless Aoos 
Only the Unit can attack adjacent oponents as a free action 1/round, a base Mob can only mash up adjacent objects.

Base weapon 1d6-1 (m) > 1d8 (large)> 2d6 (huge weapon)?
Full BAB so (2d6-1)x3 = 6d6-3 ? It that correct? Can a small goblin actually use swords/bows 1 size larger ?

Volley:1d6 (m) > 1d8 (large) = 2d6-1(huge)*3 = 6d6-3 ---- a gobblin can use a medium sword, can he use a medium bow too ?
only if no ungrappled enemy is inside the mob.
Ref DC : 10+ BAB(1) +Dex(1) =11 +range incr.(60ft)

Would be nice if you could tell me if this is correct.
They don't actually have huge weapons, it's simply an abstraction of being hit by a lot of small weapons at once. Otherwise your calculations are mostly correct. Just that 10+1+1=12. The save DC is reduced by 2 beyond the first range increment, just like a bow takes penalty to the shots if one tries to shoot beyond the first range increment.

A mob attack could look like this:
It moves in, passes a pc(provokes Aoo) (2d6 trample damage) and at the end of the turn does the mob up dmg.
If the pc wants to move out he gets and aoo every time he moves or one aoo from every adj. mob square ? that would be a little much.
Like Veekie said, you only get 1 aoo for an enemy moving inside your threatened area, regardless of how much you move.


Poisoned arrows would work the same as always I guess.
Yes. Now that's a nice touch for a mob I still hadn't tought of! :p

What's that Sith photo from?
No idea to be honest, just something I randomly found in the web. :P
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Dwarfi on May 22, 2012, 06:25:02 PM
Thats the sith intro from Star Wars - the old republic - Its pretty cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et5dzRpzMcw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et5dzRpzMcw)

And thanks for the help again. I think now everything should be more or less clear. Also that I am still a little confused, why a regular goblin soldier can use a medium sized weapon to begin with.
Even in the book he has a 1d6 and not a 1d4 shortsword. 
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on May 22, 2012, 07:05:29 PM
They're not using medium weapons, they're using small weapons that deal 1d6 damage. A longsword/morningstar/longbow for example all deal 1d6 when on small size and 1d8 when in medium size.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Dwarfi on May 23, 2012, 03:29:43 PM
My bad, the source I checked was wrong ^^ Should have looked in the book instead.

I prepared some different mob groups, a colossal goblin mob of 200 goblins is the biggest.
Must have around 200*10 HD ~1500-2000 HP ? Thats a lot.
A really low AC
For goblins pretty good Grapple stats. -1 STR+4(L)+4(H)+4(G)+4(C) =15 Grapple
Attack (1d6-1) > 4d6-1 (colossal shortsword) *3 = 12d6-3 *ouch even with the Armor DR*
Volley: Same there, + a 20ft radius aoe volley (40ft diameter)

should be correct if I havent overread some max damage or stuff like that.
If I can keep a rough track of the HP, I can reduce the troop to garg. size if they lost enough HP.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Rakoa on June 16, 2012, 01:24:34 PM
Wow, this is really cool. Mobs were always something I liked, just the idea of an enormous horde of goblins/kobolds/orc/any stereotypically expendable minion washing over enemies like a wave of destruction...something very instinctually awesome about that. And now that it is actually effective and reasonable, I think I will give it a try.

And by give it a try, I mean make a Goblin Horde PC for my next campaign.  :D
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: CDTalmas on September 19, 2012, 01:25:30 PM
Regarding the following...

Quote
A mob automatically deals damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move, with no attack roll needed. Mob attacks ignore concealment and cover. A mob’s attacks are non-magical, unless the base creature’s attacks are considered magical. Damage reduction applies to mob up attacks. If a creature has armor and/or shield, add their AC bonus to the creature's DR against Mob Up. Mob Up cannot hurt a creature with enough DR to fully nullify the attacks of the base creature composing the Mob.

The damage amount and type is based on the damage the most common kind of individual of the mob would normaly deal, but multiplied by a factor based on it's BAB and increase the damage HD according to the new size.

1/2 BAB:Don't multiply
3/4 BAB: multiply by 2
Full BAB:multiply by 3

For example, a mob of 50 orc warriors with longswords would deal 12d6+6 damage to any creature inside it every turn.

The mob can also choose to deal that damage to any unattended object it is touching. So a mob could eventually bring down walls and houses, assuming it's members had enough strength.

...do you count the DR before the whole armor/shield adjustment in relation to the monster?  Let's say that we use a MMII Wortling (under the entry of Orcwort, pg. 165).  It has 1d3 + 2 damage and Poison.  If we make a mob of 20 (maximum amount, divided by 2 for being small), it would become a large mob.  Say you're fighting a Half Orc fighter 16 with AC through the roof thanks to Mithral Full Plate +3 and Lg Shield + 2 and no "natural" DR.  Does that mean that the mob will never damage the Half Orc?  Or do you not count the DR of the Armor/Shield until determining damage of the mob-up attack?  I'm just getting a quick clarification for sake of defining the mob rules.  I could imagine a Stoneskin spell would stop a mob in its tracks... or does that not count as the "natural DR" spoken of earlier?  I guess the ultimate question is "what is used to determine DR in mob rules and WHEN?"

Also, the damage would change from small to large, correct?  So 1d3 (small) > 1d4 (med) > 1d6 (large)?  Then, because of full BAB, it's x3?  3d6 + (2 x 3 = 6)?  Plus poison, of course.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on September 19, 2012, 04:11:14 PM
Simply put, you first check any DR the creature has. If it is enough to stop an attack from a single mob member, then the mob can't damage it. In contrary case, then add the creature's armor/shield bonus as DR against the mob up attack.


Also, the damage would change from small to large, correct?  So 1d3 (small) > 1d4 (med) > 1d6 (large)?  Then, because of full BAB, it's x3?  3d6 + (2 x 3 = 6)?  Plus poison, of course.

Yes.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on July 06, 2013, 06:59:26 PM
This is a really cool idea, but there's currently no way to interact with mobs or units except damage (and negative levels which act like damage against mobs/units) so there's not much to do when you meet them except run away or go with the slugging match (unless you have a ranged attack and they don't, in which case you win but that's still not all that interesting.)

Why not have them be resistant to status conditions, rather than straight up immune? They should probably still be immune to effects that don't encompass their whole area, but for effects that do, maybe let them apply their size modifier (+4 per category over medium) on the save?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 06, 2013, 07:27:58 PM
Mmm, yeah; this is a bit weird. Amongst other things, it means that a group of eight commoners will somehow not run in terror from a Great Wyrm that would quite like the hairless apes to go away so it can get back to rearranging its treasure. Which... seems to defeat the point of a fear aura somewhat. :huh
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on July 06, 2013, 08:07:07 PM
This is a really cool idea, but there's currently no way to interact with mobs or units except damage (and negative levels which act like damage against mobs/units) so there's not much to do when you meet them except run away or go with the slugging match (unless you have a ranged attack and they don't, in which case you win but that's still not all that interesting.)
1-It's indeed suposed to simplify interaction. They're kinda suposed to be like 3.0 golems, durable, raw power, and immune to most tricks out there.
2-Basic terrain still affects them at full strength. Walls and pits and whatnot suddenly matter.
3-Mobs/units need leaders to shine. Leaders can be interacted with.


Why not have them be resistant to status conditions, rather than straight up immune? They should probably still be immune to effects that don't encompass their whole area, but for effects that do, maybe let them apply their size modifier (+4 per category over medium) on the save?
Too many area effects that don't allow saves out there.

And as a counter example, here's rocks falling over a cavarly unit (http://www.mangareader.net/kingdom/152/22), many die, but the guys that managed to stay safe in the gaps can still fight just fine. Just because a bunch of them got crippled or crushed to death doesn't actually affect the guys who didn't.

Mmm, yeah; this is a bit weird. Amongst other things, it means that a group of eight commoners will somehow not run in terror from a Great Wyrm that would quite like the hairless apes to go away so it can get back to rearranging its treasure. Which... seems to defeat the point of a fear aura somewhat. :huh
The alternative is to fully defeat the point of any kind of military organization, because whitout this, in D&D grouping 8 guys togheter is just asking them to be raped by area effects.

Anyway, an idea I just had right now since I mentioned the golems would be mobs/units each having a secret weakness, something along the lines of each mob/unit having to pick one from a list:

Cowards-The mob/unit can be affected by area fear effects. They still gain a +4 bonus on saves against fear for each size category they're bigger than medium.

Cubersome-The mob/unit can be affected by area entanglements and immobilization.  They still gain a +4 bonus on saves against entanglement for each size category they're bigger than medium.

Headless Body-the mob/unit needs a leader to fuction. If it leaves the unit/mob, or is killed/disabled, then the mob/unit automatically disperses.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on July 06, 2013, 08:15:48 PM
The idea of weaknesses is an interesting one. What knowledge check would you require to identify a mob or unit's weakness? Is there a knowledge (military) ?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 06, 2013, 08:16:25 PM
Thing is, 'eight commoners in a mob' is the exact type of group that would run in terror from the dragon. It's not military organisation in that case, it's clumping people together and hoping for the best. Honestly, this is what's weird: a mob gains all the morale and cohesion benefits that require military training and drills to achieve (complete immunity to basically every effect short of fireballing them to hell and back), despite it being a hell of a lot easier to disperse, say, the drunken contents of a pub than a smaller military unit.

I will freely admit that this is possibly my least-favourite thing out of everything of yours that I've seen. Damage sponges that automatically deal damage, are basically immune to all effects, and (if an NPC is in charge), can easily gain a powerful NPC that's got massively inflated defences from the people around him? Oh, and if the leader has any high mental stat score, the mob also gains huge benefits.

Then you get led units, which get to use special abilities as well as almost all of the defences and the ability to damage anything within reach...

I dunno, I just wouldn't think that 'make groups of weak creatures more threatening' would basically be making them vastly more annoying to deal with than most creatures of the same CR, just on the grounds that sheer damage dealt is the only applicable way to down them and most class abilities become... well, irrelevant. It just becomes a race to deal damage against something that can have... what, 90 HP whilst still being CR 3, and deal 6d6 damage automatically? Or 6d8 from anywhere within 120', moving back 20' each time. :/

Just seems kinda... draggy. And bland.

Blah. Should've written this post out ages ago, when I first got linked to it.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on July 07, 2013, 05:31:17 PM
"Draggy and bland" pretty much sums up my issues with the template as well, and I feel like the "immune to every status condition and combat maneuver just 'cause" part of mob anatomy is what makes it that way.

On the other hand, I appreciate the desire to make mobs not easily bypassable by any given spellcaster and the way you've got their saves working would have them lose to most area save or sucks.

The weaknesses idea is a decent compromise position between those two points. It's possible to disable a mob, but you have to figure out how first and then get access to that particular effect type.

As another alternative, maybe mobs could be partially affected by status conditions. That fits with the idea that part of the mob is taking the brunt of the attack to protect the rest. That would work with things like fear effects or fatigue/ exhaustion and maybe analogues could be set up for some others (sickened/nauseated, dazzled/blinded, maybe entangled/immobilized)
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on July 07, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
Ok, another idea that had today that may work better

Mob Unit's HP is between:
100%-75% max HP=Full immunity.
75%-50% max HP= Can be affected by stuff that allows saves/checks, but automatically recovers at the start of their next round.
50%-25% max HP=Can be affected by stuff that allows saves/checks, gets a new save to try to get rid off next round.
25%-0% max HP=Affected normally by stuff that allows saves/checks

Basically, as the mob/unit loses members and cohesions, it becomes gradually more vulnerable.

despite it being a hell of a lot easier to disperse, say, the drunken contents of a pub than a smaller military unit.
To be fair, a bunch of drunkards is not really a mob. A bunch of guys going in a killing/burning spree, that's a mob, and last time I checked they have to bring in shock forces to deal with those. When they can deal with them at all.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on July 07, 2013, 06:13:26 PM
I like the vulnerability based on remaining HP. Captures the "defense in depth" thing pretty well without being too complicated. Also works nicely with the fact that mobs have oodles of HP.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 07, 2013, 10:45:53 PM
Looks a lot better. A full HP mob can use sheer volume of flesh to reduce damage, and high level character vs an army is less focused on 'who can deal damage faster'.

I have a question: if you use Summon Monster to summon multiples of a lower-levelled creature, can you form them into a mob should there be 8 or more?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on July 07, 2013, 10:50:12 PM
I don't know about summon monster, but the IMC demons who summon exponentially larger groups as they move down their lists, might be able to form their troops into mobs (or units even.)
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 07, 2013, 10:54:53 PM
IMC?

I know I've seen something that has that sort of effect.

... honestly, I just want to overwhelm people with a bunch of celestial (honey) badgers or something equally ridiculous.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on July 08, 2013, 01:00:13 AM
Improved Monster Class. Several of the demons have summon abilities where you can get 1 of the highest powered, 2 of the second, 4 of the 3rd, 8 of the 4th, etc.

EDIT: Seems it's actually the Devils (the lawful infernals) who get exponential summoning abilities. An 8HD Pit Fiend, for example, can summon 8 Lemures. A 12 HD Pit Fiend can summon 8 Bearded Devils, or 32 lemures.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 08, 2013, 08:52:16 AM
Ah.

... I'll just satisfy myself with trying to form a pseudonatural creature mob at some point.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Jackinthegreen on July 11, 2013, 01:20:09 PM
Ah.

... I'll just satisfy myself with trying to form a pseudonatural creature mob at some point.
Tentacle orgy?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on December 09, 2013, 05:41:51 AM
Changed the rules a bit to allow Dex bonus to work against mob attacks.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: MrRoboto on July 03, 2014, 05:41:31 PM
What happens when a mob leader with Combat Casting cast cure light wounds on all members of their mob? Does the mob heal 1d8+CL x number of members?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on July 05, 2014, 06:40:43 AM
Yes. Helps making low-level casters as viable leaders.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 05, 2014, 08:31:21 AM
So they're meant to be more or less able to fully heal the mob with a 1st level spell? :huh
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on July 05, 2014, 10:03:11 AM
If your mob is composed of lv1 commoners of regular races with 10 or less Con, yes.

If you're leading a unit of veteran troops, or even 1st level warriors with positive Con mod, you'll need a stronger healing spell to fully restore them.

1d8+1 still averages to a measly 5,5 HP per dude cured.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: MrRoboto on July 13, 2014, 01:03:11 PM
Does a mob add its size modifier to the save DC of its volley attack? The text doesn't say it does but it does mention adding that modifier to the DC of other saves the mob causes.

EDIT: Since only half the members need a ranged weapon to use the volley option, can a unit perform a volley and still deal mob up damage at EOT (the members in the center of the formation attack at range while the edges engage in melee)?

2nd EDIT: How does moving within a mob/unit work for friendly creatures that are not part of said mob/unit (IE the other PCs)? Is it possible and does it provide cover of any sort?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on September 13, 2015, 05:22:23 AM
Mounted Mob/Unit


(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg138/oslecamo/oslecamo007/0charge_zpsie4r2cm6.jpg~original)
Mounts and Riders act as one.

A mounted Mob/Unit is composed of creatures riding their mounts. The riders must have the Mounted Combat feat and at least 4 ranks in ride and the mount must be able to carry the rider. Count each pair of rider/mount as a single creature, with the size and creature type based on the mount and then the best of each creature's Ability Scores, HD, movement speeds, skill ranks, base saves and Bab.  Combine the feats and other abilities of both.

The CR of a Mounted Mob/Unit is equal to 1+the CR of the base Mob/Unit if it was composed solely of individuals of the highest CR between mount/rider.

Otherwise it works as a normal Mob/Unit.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on September 13, 2015, 05:29:36 AM
Completely missed those questions but better late than never I guess.

Does a mob add its size modifier to the save DC of its volley attack? The text doesn't say it does but it does mention adding that modifier to the DC of other saves the mob causes.
No, since the Volley gets to add the Bab while most other abilities don't (correct  me if I'm mistaken on this).

EDIT: Since only half the members need a ranged weapon to use the volley option, can a unit perform a volley and still deal mob up damage at EOT (the members in the center of the formation attack at range while the edges engage in melee)?
Yes.

2nd EDIT: How does moving within a mob/unit work for friendly creatures that are not part of said mob/unit (IE the other PCs)? Is it possible and does it provide cover of any sort?
Friendly creatures still count a mob/unit as difficult terrain as it's still a bunch of tightly packed creatures. The mob/unit moves independently of creatures that are not a part of it, but will still grant cover as a bigger creature normally would.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on February 07, 2017, 01:50:05 AM
So a few questions:

1) A unit of Zombies would lose their Critical Strike and Precision Damage immunity, correct?

2) How would Tactics work with activated abilities involving attack rolls, or for that matter stuff like Martial Adept Strikes/Boosts? Would you just make a single attack against a target in reach? Do you need to roll the attack roll? Are you using Mob Up/Volley damage as the Unit or just a single attack as the base unit of the mob? Would something like a Boost apply to all the mobs attacks (presuming it works with more then 1 attack normally)?

3) Supernatural Mob/Unit are interesting, but kind of funky. Namely how their Laser Up and Focused Laser Barrage compare to Mob up and Volley. I was missing around with it with Warlocks, and I noticed that Mob Up generally outperformed Laser Up. This mainly stems from the damage multiplier from having 3/4 BAB which doesn't seem to apply to Laser Up, and even further for units that get to benefit from Discipline bonus damage. For Instance a Large Mob/Unit of Warlock 3 with Mob Up deal 4d6/+6 (assuming Str 8 with Morningstar) but only 3d6/4d6 with Laser Up. And then you need to make an attack roll. At bigger group sizes this difference only increases. It kind of evens out if you are using Higher level warlocks in smaller groups, but not by much.
Obviously the Warlock Mob Unit has more options available to it then Laser Up and Barrage, namely Laser Storm as an extra free attack, but it seems kind of odd that the warlocks are better off smacking people with weapons then eldritch blasting them. And of course this issue probably isnt a problem for most other applications of the template and is just a bit nitpicky on my part, but I felt like it would be good to point that out.

EDIT

4) And is bonus damage multiplied when calculating mob damage? From 1 Flaming weapon for example?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on February 08, 2017, 03:54:46 PM
So a few questions:

1) A unit of Zombies would lose their Critical Strike and Precision Damage immunity, correct?
Yes.

2) How would Tactics work with activated abilities involving attack rolls, or for that matter stuff like Martial Adept Strikes/Boosts? Would you just make a single attack against a target in reach? Do you need to roll the attack roll? Are you using Mob Up/Volley damage as the Unit or just a single attack as the base unit of the mob? Would something like a Boost apply to all the mobs attacks (presuming it works with more then 1 attack normally)?
Yes single-target maneuvers would remain single-target with normal attack/damage roll. Only use mob-up damage when specifically called. A boost would affect all of the unit's attacks as appliable.

3) Supernatural Mob/Unit are interesting, but kind of funky. Namely how their Laser Up and Focused Laser Barrage compare to Mob up and Volley. I was missing around with it with Warlocks, and I noticed that Mob Up generally outperformed Laser Up. This mainly stems from the damage multiplier from having 3/4 BAB which doesn't seem to apply to Laser Up, and even further for units that get to benefit from Discipline bonus damage. For Instance a Large Mob/Unit of Warlock 3 with Mob Up deal 4d6/+6 (assuming Str 8 with Morningstar) but only 3d6/4d6 with Laser Up. And then you need to make an attack roll. At bigger group sizes this difference only increases. It kind of evens out if you are using Higher level warlocks in smaller groups, but not by much.
Obviously the Warlock Mob Unit has more options available to it then Laser Up and Barrage, namely Laser Storm as an extra free attack, but it seems kind of odd that the warlocks are better off smacking people with weapons then eldritch blasting them. And of course this issue probably isnt a problem for most other applications of the template and is just a bit nitpicky on my part, but I felt like it would be good to point that out.
There's several details that you seem to have overlooked:
1-Although the warlock's blast damage is indeed not multiplied, it also outright ignores armor/shield/natural armor, so swarming with morningstars would only be superior against very lightly armored targets.
2-Warlock mob blast does not demand you to get closer and eat aoos.
3-There's several extra effects a bunch of debuffs you could add to their blast.
4-You kinda selected a biased example since warlock blast is infamous for being kinda lowish damage. Although now that I think about it I'm not very sure where you got the +6 to morningstar mob damage since 8 Str should be a negative modifier.


4) And is bonus damage multiplied when calculating mob damage? From 1 Flaming weapon for example?
Assuming everybody in the mob has flaming weapons, yes. A single one wouldn't do any difference though.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on February 08, 2017, 07:44:38 PM

3) Supernatural Mob/Unit are interesting, but kind of funky. Namely how their Laser Up and Focused Laser Barrage compare to Mob up and Volley. I was missing around with it with Warlocks, and I noticed that Mob Up generally outperformed Laser Up. This mainly stems from the damage multiplier from having 3/4 BAB which doesn't seem to apply to Laser Up, and even further for units that get to benefit from Discipline bonus damage. For Instance a Large Mob/Unit of Warlock 3 with Mob Up deal 4d6/+6 (assuming Str 8 with Morningstar) but only 3d6/4d6 with Laser Up. And then you need to make an attack roll. At bigger group sizes this difference only increases. It kind of evens out if you are using Higher level warlocks in smaller groups, but not by much.
Obviously the Warlock Mob Unit has more options available to it then Laser Up and Barrage, namely Laser Storm as an extra free attack, but it seems kind of odd that the warlocks are better off smacking people with weapons then eldritch blasting them. And of course this issue probably isnt a problem for most other applications of the template and is just a bit nitpicky on my part, but I felt like it would be good to point that out.
There's several details that you seem to have overlooked:
1-Although the warlock's blast damage is indeed not multiplied, it also outright ignores armor/shield/natural armor, so swarming with morningstars would only be superior against very lightly armored targets.
2-Warlock mob blast does not demand you to get closer and eat aoos.
3-There's several extra effects a bunch of debuffs you could add to their blast.
4-You kinda selected a biased example since warlock blast is infamous for being kinda lowish damage. Although now that I think about it I'm not very sure where you got the +6 to morningstar mob damage since 8 Str should be a negative modifier.


1 - That is true, so the damage is not too bad after those.

2 - You mean Laser Barrage correct? Because Laser up does want them in the mob, or in reach of the unit per its description. But yeah it is true you are away from the fight. Volley will also keep you out of the fight and if using crossbows dealing more damage then Mob up with morning stars in the example, but with point 1 the mob is probably dealing more damage with Laser Barrage ignoring armor and stuff still. Volley can beat it on range though, but that is only because of how eldritch Blast works, so that cant be helped and is the case with a lone warlock as well.

3 - That is true, though there are plenty of debuffs you can find to add to weapons, like poison. But thats not really an issue either way for me, with the above two points.

4 - Yeah like I said this issue only came up with the warlocks, they are somewhat low damage overall. I only used them because I was building a Unit of them (Warlock Drow Specifically) and that they were one the examples of a supernatural mob/unit as mentioned in the template.
The +6 is for the Unit and from the Discipline ability, which gives bonus damage based on size on top of scaling weapon damage (unless I read that wrong):
1d8-1 (base Warlock) > 2d6-1 (Large Warlock Mob) > 2d6+3(Large Warlock Unit) > 4d6+6 (after 3/4th BAB multiplying damage by 2)


4) And is bonus damage multiplied when calculating mob damage? From 1 Flaming weapon for example?
Assuming everybody in the mob has flaming weapons, yes. A single one wouldn't do any difference though.

Okay that is good to know, but to clarify something which I wasnt clear with my question, do you also scale up the bonus damage based on size, or only base weapon damage?
For instance, Medium Fire Elementals deal 1d6 fire damage on top of their slam damage. If you had a Large Mob of Medium Fire Elementals, would the Slam now receive a upgraded 1d8 extra fire damage, or would it not scale with size and remain 1d6?
I ask because normally damage like that doesnt scale up (the flaming property on a Large Longsword Wielded by a Large Creature still deals 1d6 Fire), but at the same time the damage scaling is in part abstraction of just being hit by multiple creatures in a group, so I imagine a mob of fire elementals is going to deal more fire damage then a single fire elementals base attack would.


Speaking of BAB and multiplied damage though, in the rare scenario where you have a multi classed mob (or monster mob with racial HD and class levels), you would probably just treat the BAB as what it would average out to for a creature of that HD yeah?
For example, a Mob of Bugbear (3HD of 3/4 BAB) with 3 Levels of Sorcerer (1/2 BAB) would be treated as having 1/2 BAB for purposes of multiplying damage correct?


Sorry for all the questions BTW =P
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on February 11, 2017, 07:57:39 AM
4 - Yeah like I said this issue only came up with the warlocks, they are somewhat low damage overall. I only used them because I was building a Unit of them (Warlock Drow Specifically) and that they were one the examples of a supernatural mob/unit as mentioned in the template.
The +6 is for the Unit and from the Discipline ability, which gives bonus damage based on size on top of scaling weapon damage (unless I read that wrong):
1d8-1 (base Warlock) > 2d6-1 (Large Warlock Mob) > 2d6+3(Large Warlock Unit) > 4d6+6 (after 3/4th BAB multiplying damage by 2)
That is indeed correct.

Okay that is good to know, but to clarify something which I wasnt clear with my question, do you also scale up the bonus damage based on size, or only base weapon damage?
For instance, Medium Fire Elementals deal 1d6 fire damage on top of their slam damage. If you had a Large Mob of Medium Fire Elementals, would the Slam now receive a upgraded 1d8 extra fire damage, or would it not scale with size and remain 1d6?
I ask because normally damage like that doesnt scale up (the flaming property on a Large Longsword Wielded by a Large Creature still deals 1d6 Fire), but at the same time the damage scaling is in part abstraction of just being hit by multiple creatures in a group, so I imagine a mob of fire elementals is going to deal more fire damage then a single fire elementals base attack would.
Well the extra fire damage is already kinda represented by the multiplier for Bab. Fire damage from weapons indeed doesn't scale by size whetever it's a pixie dagger or a titan maul. I could put a clause for that, but I'm afraid of opening a can of worms to promote stacking all the d6s you can in a small creature and then reap the size benefits.

Speaking of BAB and multiplied damage though, in the rare scenario where you have a multi classed mob (or monster mob with racial HD and class levels), you would probably just treat the BAB as what it would average out to for a creature of that HD yeah?
For example, a Mob of Bugbear (3HD of 3/4 BAB) with 3 Levels of Sorcerer (1/2 BAB) would be treated as having 1/2 BAB for purposes of multiplying damage correct?
Correct.

Sorry for all the questions BTW =P
No problem, you're welcome. :)
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on February 15, 2017, 12:52:26 AM
Yes thank you.

I guess my only inkling now is overall damage scalling, particularly for units. on the smaller sized units discipline bonus damage is not to bad, but when you get to larger units with full BAB that discipline damage could probably one shot parties. A Full BAB Gargantuan unit with 10 str is dealing 18d6+36 with Greatswords, an average of 99 damage to anything in range. The 10th level fully armored d12HD character with a 24 Con and avg HP is maybe 140 HP and around 20 DR vs Mob up give or take.
Barring other abilities to shave off damage (which outside of somewhat optimized games might not be around), this guy is getting 2 shotted. Against characters not as focused into defense or with smaller HD (d10HD, 20 Con) you are probably are going to see that HP drop to 110 and DR a few points. Squishes are straight out murdered on contact it seems, especially sense the Unit is ignoring miss chances and stuff.

Realistically as a DM your probably not going to send a horde of Greatsword wielding Hobos against your Party and are going to watch the damage they can do. The smart move as a DM is probably longswords (which is only 6d6 is less damage). Still the damage multiplier makes thing swing wildy in my opinion. It might be a good idea to make discipline damage for units apply after multiplication rather then before (still an advantage to the unit damage wise), or reduce BAB multiplication to 1, 1.5, and 2 (for low, mid, and high bab respectively), perhaps both. Really while characters with higher BAB should have some representation of being better combatants, I dont thing the difference between a low BAB and high BAB is a tripling of damage, especially amongst low level characters which mobs/units are going to typically be composed of.

And then there is Power Attack Wedge formation which doubles damage after base multiplication, which is just absurd no matter how you slice it. At best it should be a +1 multiplier.


I dont know, maybe Im miscalculating or not accounting for something, and any changes probably do throw off the lower end damage down. I guess the issue there is its easier to get a bulk or armor for DR early on but the bonuses scale slower then the damage ramps up.
What are your thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on February 15, 2017, 07:20:53 PM
My head's kinda burned right now, but I'll just point out a couple things:
1-At first level squishies go down in 1 round of melee.
2-At level 10 you either have great mobility or great range and either way a mob of 1st level dudes is gonna be lucky to ever close in melee, so they need to make it count.

Wedge Formation a bit too OP though so nerfed as per your suggestion.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 15, 2017, 10:30:04 PM
My head's kinda burned right now, but I'll just point out a couple things:
1-At first level squishies go down in 1 round of melee.

Most things will die to one bad crit for a couple of levels, but that's not a good thing. Also one of the issues at higher levels where it's all rocket tag. That doesn't mean it justifies an outcome where any sufficiently large group can only be taken on by kiting and hoping they have no way to catch up, even when the individual participants have no ability to hurt you even on a 20.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on March 01, 2017, 01:27:28 PM
Kinda late reply here, but consider the following.

A fire giant (CR 10) makes 3 attacks for 3d6+15, average of about 76 damage without crits. But he has power attack and is wielding a two-handed weapon by default, so he can easily get a 24+ damage in a full attack if facing a squishy target, keeping up damage with the mob. So squishies that get in melee range do drop in 1 round at mid levels against melee specialist already.

And from a fluff perspective, it is a classic that the heroes can't just mindlessly charge in the middle of a compact formation of mooks. Heck, more often than not, a compact formation of mooks is enough to make the heroes choose to run away to fight another day, or engage in skirmish tactics to wear down their opponents without eing surrounded, although one on one or even ten on one the mooks would have no chance.

Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: nijineko on March 01, 2017, 02:20:03 PM
Hmmm, I've never had problems with threatening PCs with large groups of mooks in the past?

the PCs have to burn some AoE uses or just wade into them for a somewhat protracted combat while taking some hits.

either way, it is a distraction and/or challenge.

an interesting idea nonetheless.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 01, 2017, 09:47:05 PM
A fire giant (CR 10) makes 3 attacks for 3d6+15, average of about 76 damage without crits. But he has power attack and is wielding a two-handed weapon by default, so he can easily get a 24+ damage in a full attack if facing a squishy target, keeping up damage with the mob. So squishies that get in melee range do drop in 1 round at mid levels against melee specialist already.

It can also miss for various reasons, doesn't ignore a chunk of defensive measures from both sides of the martial/magic divide, can end up in a position where its attacking risks it getting hit, and doesn't negate every single-target ability in the game and most debuffs. Whilst being able to hit every PC every round without fail for high damage. That's too many things at once.

Quote
And from a fluff perspective, it is a classic that the heroes can't just mindlessly charge in the middle of a compact formation of mooks. Heck, more often than not, a compact formation of mooks is enough to make the heroes choose to run away to fight another day, or engage in skirmish tactics to wear down their opponents without eing surrounded, although one on one or even ten on one the mooks would have no chance.

But there's also plenty of stories where the number of combatants is totally irrelevant and any number of weak enemies is literally just cannon fodder. There's enough mythological stories where numbers weren't enough and you needed to pit heroes of equal force against each other to achieve anything at all--the Greeks seemed to be a big fan of those sorts of things. Then there's the intermediate step where you can throw an entire army against one person and eventually kill them but at the cost of having lost the battle anyone as it worked out to a draw. Or a lot of mecha series.

There's level ranges and situations where that's appropriate, but a ten level gap is the difference between summoning a horse and teleporting a party the length of a continent. A disorganised low level mob is not the sort of thing that should be threatening level 11 fighters.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on March 01, 2017, 11:22:40 PM
A fire giant (CR 10) makes 3 attacks for 3d6+15, average of about 76 damage without crits. But he has power attack and is wielding a two-handed weapon by default, so he can easily get a 24+ damage in a full attack if facing a squishy target, keeping up damage with the mob. So squishies that get in melee range do drop in 1 round at mid levels against melee specialist already.

It can also miss for various reasons, doesn't ignore a chunk of defensive measures from both sides of the martial/magic divide, can end up in a position where its attacking risks it getting hit, and doesn't negate every single-target ability in the game and most debuffs. Whilst being able to hit every PC every round without fail for high damage. That's too many things at once.
Actually single-target effects that kill creatures do remove HP from a mob (and multi-target will remove multiples). And it loses immunities as it's losing HP. And takes extra damage from area effects and cleave/greater cleave. Heck even vulnerable to black tentacles. And the mob's AC/saves should be pretty crappy meaning it will be losing basically every save and you can full power attack it and only miss on 1s. That basic Fire Giant can probably one-round a colossal mob of basic 1st level dudes despite being a couple CRs lower.


Quote
And from a fluff perspective, it is a classic that the heroes can't just mindlessly charge in the middle of a compact formation of mooks. Heck, more often than not, a compact formation of mooks is enough to make the heroes choose to run away to fight another day, or engage in skirmish tactics to wear down their opponents without eing surrounded, although one on one or even ten on one the mooks would have no chance.

But there's also plenty of stories where the number of combatants is totally irrelevant and any number of weak enemies is literally just cannon fodder. There's enough mythological stories where numbers weren't enough and you needed to pit heroes of equal force against each other to achieve anything at all--the Greeks seemed to be a big fan of those sorts of things. Then there's the intermediate step where you can throw an entire army against one person and eventually kill them but at the cost of having lost the battle anyone as it worked out to a draw.
You mean like the Trojan war? Where the trojans had two named heroes who were explicitly weaker than the greek's best, die relatively fast and then the trojan mooks hold a literal army of greek named heroes for a decade before Ulysses pulls a super bluff check and then they just go coup de gracing the trojan mooks during their sleep?

Meanwhile the 300 spartans appear to be invincible until the persians get a proper flanking going and then even the spartan king goes down to the persian's mooks like a whimp.

Then there's the classic LoTR where individuals like Sauron and Gandalf are supposed to be demigods walking the earth, but get enough goblins/orcs and you can swarm them.

Or a lot of mecha series.
Gundam series always have the main mecha fighting as part of a bigger force. Even Mazinger and Getter Robo and TTGL ended up needing to rally armies to help win the day at the end. Getter Emperor actually deploys squads of rifle humies as part of its attack patterns, besides budding smaller getters.

There's level ranges and situations where that's appropriate, but a ten level gap is the difference between summoning a horse and teleporting a party the length of a continent. A disorganised low level mob is not the sort of thing that should be threatening level 11 fighters.
But then that raises the question of why would anybody bother to train and maintain armies. If quantity doesn't have a quality of its own, then there's no reason to ever go for quantity.

Plus explains why BBEGs love lurking in dungeons with tight corridors. Keeps them safe from being swarmed. :p

Hmmm, I've never had problems with threatening PCs with large groups of mooks in the past?

the PCs have to burn some AoE uses or just wade into them for a somewhat protracted combat while taking some hits.

either way, it is a distraction and/or challenge.

an interesting idea nonetheless.
So you're fine with rolling dozens/hundreds of rolls for all the mooks? :psyduck
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 01, 2017, 11:53:37 PM
A fire giant (CR 10) makes 3 attacks for 3d6+15, average of about 76 damage without crits. But he has power attack and is wielding a two-handed weapon by default, so he can easily get a 24+ damage in a full attack if facing a squishy target, keeping up damage with the mob. So squishies that get in melee range do drop in 1 round at mid levels against melee specialist already.

It can also miss for various reasons, doesn't ignore a chunk of defensive measures from both sides of the martial/magic divide, can end up in a position where its attacking risks it getting hit, and doesn't negate every single-target ability in the game and most debuffs. Whilst being able to hit every PC every round without fail for high damage. That's too many things at once.
Actually single-target effects that kill creatures do remove HP from a mob (and multi-target will remove multiples). And it loses immunities as it's losing HP. And takes extra damage from area effects and cleave/greater cleave. Heck even vulnerable to black tentacles. And the mob's AC/saves should be pretty crappy meaning it will be losing basically every save and you can full power attack it and only miss on 1s. That basic Fire Giant can probably one-round a colossal mob of basic 1st level dudes despite being a couple CRs lower.

Do I really have to point out that this is a lot of "probably"s that need more checking? Last time you used a mob you did nearly kill everyone except the mathematical abomination Anomander's playing in a single round.

Quote
Quote
And from a fluff perspective, it is a classic that the heroes can't just mindlessly charge in the middle of a compact formation of mooks. Heck, more often than not, a compact formation of mooks is enough to make the heroes choose to run away to fight another day, or engage in skirmish tactics to wear down their opponents without eing surrounded, although one on one or even ten on one the mooks would have no chance.

But there's also plenty of stories where the number of combatants is totally irrelevant and any number of weak enemies is literally just cannon fodder. There's enough mythological stories where numbers weren't enough and you needed to pit heroes of equal force against each other to achieve anything at all--the Greeks seemed to be a big fan of those sorts of things. Then there's the intermediate step where you can throw an entire army against one person and eventually kill them but at the cost of having lost the battle anyone as it worked out to a draw.
You mean like the Trojan war? Where the trojans had two named heroes who were explicitly weaker than the greek's best, die relatively fast and then the trojan mooks hold a literal army of greek named heroes for a decade before Ulysses pulls a super bluff check and then they just go coup de gracing the trojan mooks during their sleep?

Meanwhile the 300 spartans appear to be invincible until the persians get a proper flanking going and then even the spartan king goes down to the persian's mooks like a whimp.

Then there's the classic LoTR where individuals like Sauron and Gandalf are supposed to be demigods walking the earth, but get enough goblins/orcs and you can swarm them.

Yeah, the Trojan War where Achilles was unstoppable until a god specifically took action to take him out. The same Greek Myths where half of Herc's labours were killing things that couldn't be swarmed by sheer numbers. At which point they go spend the next ten years holing up inside of their walls rather than coming out to fight--that's a siege, not a battle. What about Beowulf, with the minor issue of "well, our soldiers can't do this, but this one guy can".

And LotR? Bad example. Yeah, the named human characters can be overwhelmed. Gandalf and Sauron? Nope. Gandalf survived every mortal battle he was ever in without issue, and Sauron's being defeated by the Last Alliance? It wasn't the numbers; he was single-handedly stopping an entire army by smashing it to pieces. It was one of the four named characters in the battle (two of whom were dead) who basically scored a crit. That isn't a mob of low level characters, that's an out-of-CR boss fight with NPC's to soak up damage for a bit. The rest of the setting is even worse. Nazgul? Named characters and they were generally operating as generals in the past. But go back to the Silmarillion and it's even more skewed: the earlier parts of the war include an entire army refusing to engage with a single elf who went to take on Morgoth. Or single entities radically changing the tide of battle--Ancalagon is a great example of "and no amount of numbers is going to help against a max-size dragon".

... The Battle of Thermopylae is so far our of D&D's general scale I'm not sure of its relevance.

Quote
Or a lot of mecha series.
Gundam series always have the main mecha fighting as part of a bigger force. Even Mazinger and Getter Robo and TTGL ended up needing to rally armies to help win the day at the end. Getter Emperor actually deploys squads of rifle humies as part of its attack patterns, besides budding smaller getters.

TTGL ultimately resolves to "what can a single party do against a single enemy" and any groups are totally sidelined. There's certainly no army in Getter Robo Armageddon or New Getter Robo. Gunbuster and Diebuster's biggest fights are sans army. Code Geass pretty much operates in a space of "the newest mecha eclipse the common stuff by such a margin they aren't worth considering". NGE doesn't have much of a role for armies or numbers.

There's pretty much a lot of examples either way. There's no universal rule that a large group of weaker enemies must be threatening and at a certain point it stretches much credibility: how the hell are these weak groups acquiring all the items they need to do any damage?

Quote
There's level ranges and situations where that's appropriate, but a ten level gap is the difference between summoning a horse and teleporting a party the length of a continent. A disorganised low level mob is not the sort of thing that should be threatening level 11 fighters.
But then that raises the question of why would anybody bother to train and maintain armies. If quantity doesn't have a quality of its own, then there's no reason to ever go for quantity.

Plus explains why BBEGs love lurking in dungeons with tight corridors. Keeps them safe from being swarmed. :p

I thought it was availability. The XP required for levelling rapidly increases as you go up in level, yet the valid sources of experience diminish--essentially, you end up in a world where most enemies aren't challenging enough to learn anything. So you maintain an army of mostly level 1 warriors because they're capable of dealing with most low-level threats, and a large polity will have some medium and maybe high level characters around to deal with monster incursions etc. that are otherwise impossible to handle. It's pretty much how adventurers are justified: there aren't enough high level people available to DEAL with these and only relying on the few high levels leaves you with a defence full of holes that a low level army can actually rush through because the higher levels can't be everywhere at once.

XP to level goes up, XP available goes down, and higher levels are exponentially rarer. Having a high levelled wizard basically makes you a nuclear power, but that means you can afford bigger armies in the first place. One's more economical than the other.

And "keeps them from being swarmed" is the point. You don't have highly powered characters utilising large amounts of weaker allies for the damage potential, it's so that they don't get bogged down and left vulnerable to other high powered characters or kept from reaching some objective in time. "Uncoordinated but large mobs being as inherently lethal as boss enemies" is a little strange at higher levels.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: nijineko on March 02, 2017, 03:41:03 PM
So you're fine with rolling dozens/hundreds of rolls for all the mooks? :psyduck

It's called Aid Another.

They attack in sets of 10 to 30 or so with reach weapons, everyone else in the group aids the single attacker - reduce size of attackers and/or make them flying creatures if you really need to pile the numbers on a tank or brick. They will hit the PCs, even with 30-50 ACs, or more. This method reduces the dice rolling to one roll per set of 'x' mooks. doable even by physical dice. For the Aid Another check, I can either fiat/assume a success or a certain percentage of success every time, roll one more die to determine how many succeed (yes, I have a 30 sided die), or I can roll them all using my next comment.


Besides, I have the best dice roller on the planet. It can handle up to 1000 rolls in a few seconds. Write the dice script ahead of time, push the button, and it sorts the results however I want. So if I wanted to, yes, yes I could roll for dozens or even hundreds of mooks in just a few seconds.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on March 04, 2017, 08:30:22 AM
Do I really have to point out that this is a lot of "probably"s that need more checking? Last time you used a mob you did nearly kill everyone except the mathematical abomination Anomander's playing in a single round.
Well, that was more fault of too much pimping of the gestalt enemy on my part than the mob rules. It is not easy to properly calibrate encounters when indeed attacks that nearly kill some party members only deal moderate damage to other party members.

Yeah, the Trojan War where Achilles was unstoppable until a god specifically took action to take him out.
Paris was the one sniping Acquilles. Some versions of the story have Apollo Aid Anothering him, but then Acquilles also had gods cheering him on too.

The same Greek Myths where half of Herc's labours were killing things that couldn't be swarmed by sheer numbers. At which point they go spend the next ten years holing up inside of their walls rather than coming out to fight--that's a siege, not a battle.
(click to show/hide)

What about Beowulf, with the minor issue of "well, our soldiers can't do this, but this one guy can".
Ok, one story.

And LotR? Bad example. Yeah, the named human characters can be overwhelmed. Gandalf and Sauron? Nope. Gandalf survived every mortal battle he was ever in without issue, and Sauron's being defeated by the Last Alliance? It wasn't the numbers; he was single-handedly stopping an entire army by smashing it to pieces. It was one of the four named characters in the battle (two of whom were dead) who basically scored a crit. That isn't a mob of low level characters, that's an out-of-CR boss fight with NPC's to soak up damage for a bit. The rest of the setting is even worse. Nazgul? Named characters and they were generally operating as generals in the past. But go back to the Silmarillion and it's even more skewed: the earlier parts of the war include an entire army refusing to engage with a single elf who went to take on Morgoth. Or single entities radically changing the tide of battle--Ancalagon is a great example of "and no amount of numbers is going to help against a max-size dragon".
Remind me, what happened after the big battle against Sauron?
HumiewhokilledSauron: Woot, let's return home to celebrate!
DM: Let me roll random encounters. Ok, a bunch of orc remants show up. Roll initiative!
HumiewhokilledSauron: Please, I just killed Sauron, what can some basic orcs do against mMY SPLEEN! GGAAAAAHHHH!!!!(dies to disorganized mob of orcs)

Also as a reminder, the only reason Sauron was fighting in the frontline on the first place was because his army was crumbling (since the humie/elf heroes were fighting on the frontline along the elf/humie mooks) and Sauron had nowhere to run.

And even in the Silmarrion armies were relevant and got shit done. The only reason orcs exist was because somebody decided they needed faster breeding mooks.

TTGL ultimately resolves to "what can a single party do against a single enemy" and any groups are totally sidelined. There's certainly no army in Getter Robo Armageddon or New Getter Robo. Gunbuster and Diebuster's biggest fights are sans army. Code Geass pretty much operates in a space of "the newest mecha eclipse the common stuff by such a margin they aren't worth considering". NGE doesn't have much of a role for armies or numbers.
Eeerrr, Gunbuster's grand finale is they gathering a massive army to zerg rush the enemy spawn camp. Diebuster's robot girl's main ability is having a zillion mecha mooks at her command. Lelouch's main trait is that he can rally a bunch of random peasants armed with smuggled/stolen weapons into an effective fighting force and Code Geas's grand finale has Lulu blocking the super flying fortress's nukes by literally throwing nameless mooks at them. NERV's base is completely crushed by a regular army despite having tanked multiple angels and EVA-2 gets beaten by mass produced models.

But more in particular, shame on you for forgetting Armageddon's Jin's Tower (https://youtu.be/0RljEuRJkrw?t=28).

And then there's the full getter mob attack in SRW Z3 (https://youtu.be/MacJ-MhYaVI?t=981). Never enuff Getter.
New Getter Robo does cut down on the army bits, but then it also cuts down in a lot of classic Getter stuff. Can only put so much in so few episodes.


There's pretty much a lot of examples either way. There's no universal rule that a large group of weaker enemies must be threatening and at a certain point it stretches much credibility: how the hell are these weak groups acquiring all the items they need to do any damage?
Well the basic idea is that pointy sticks never become fully obsolete.


I thought it was availability. The XP required for levelling rapidly increases as you go up in level, yet the valid sources of experience diminish--essentially, you end up in a world where most enemies aren't challenging enough to learn anything. So you maintain an army of mostly level 1 warriors because they're capable of dealing with most low-level threats, and a large polity will have some medium and maybe high level characters around to deal with monster incursions etc. that are otherwise impossible to handle. It's pretty much how adventurers are justified: there aren't enough high level people available to DEAL with these and only relying on the few high levels leaves you with a defence full of holes that a low level army can actually rush through because the higher levels can't be everywhere at once.

XP to level goes up, XP available goes down, and higher levels are exponentially rarer. Having a high levelled wizard basically makes you a nuclear power, but that means you can afford bigger armies in the first place. One's more economical than the other.
You're assuming that everybody has to grow with exp.

But on their natural state, most monsters simply grow stronger (dragons) or just spawn strong. And sometimes they can multiply by themselves (slaad, wights). Wizards can create minions by a variety of ways. Any civilization will lose by simple attrition if they must wait until heroes level up by exp to be able to defend themselves from D&D's ecoloy.

Heroes are still quite important as high mobility strike forces, since it's a lot easier to transport a few high-level dudes around than hundreds/thousands of mooks. In particular when the mooks need to eat and breathe and stuff.


And "keeps them from being swarmed" is the point. You don't have highly powered characters utilising large amounts of weaker allies for the damage potential, it's so that they don't get bogged down and left vulnerable to other high powered characters or kept from reaching some objective in time. "Uncoordinated but large mobs being as inherently lethal as boss enemies" is a little strange at higher levels.
Again, just ask the guy who took out Sauron with nothing besides a broken piece of metal.

Or the last lotr dragon. Ever wondered how his kin was driven to extinction? Well, as soon as he poked his head out, got critted by a peasant's lucky arrow. The only reason he ever conquered the mountain is because lotr dwarves have neither guns or crossbows and seem to hate bows, so fly-by attack+breath weapon wins the day.

So you're fine with rolling dozens/hundreds of rolls for all the mooks? :psyduck

It's called Aid Another.

They attack in sets of 10 to 30 or so with reach weapons, everyone else in the group aids the single attacker - reduce size of attackers and/or make them flying creatures if you really need to pile the numbers on a tank or brick. They will hit the PCs, even with 30-50 ACs, or more. This method reduces the dice rolling to one roll per set of 'x' mooks. doable even by physical dice. For the Aid Another check, I can either fiat/assume a success or a certain percentage of success every time, roll one more die to determine how many succeed (yes, I have a 30 sided die), or I can roll them all using my next comment.


Besides, I have the best dice roller on the planet. It can handle up to 1000 rolls in a few seconds. Write the dice script ahead of time, push the button, and it sorts the results however I want. So if I wanted to, yes, yes I could roll for dozens or even hundreds of mooks in just a few seconds.
I don't suppose you could share your super script with us? :P
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: nijineko on March 07, 2017, 01:57:48 PM
Sure, link's been in my sig for a long time.

Download the software, install it, and let me know what kinda dice roll you specifically want, and I'll see what I can get you.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on March 09, 2017, 08:56:57 AM
Ah, thanks! Had completely missed it. Will try it out later.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on March 20, 2017, 08:16:02 PM
Hmm heres a thought I might try out in my own game that might be worth suggesting, maybe just give Mob Up a Fort save for Half to endure damage similar to how Volley has a Ref save for Half?
I think that can go a little ways to make the damage feel fairer and somewhat avoidable without taking too much away from the potential damage as a whole.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on April 06, 2017, 04:21:15 AM
That's an interesting idea. Added it, with clause that it works against objects. Also reworked the DCs to be CR-based and reduced the extra damage from cleave and greater cleave (now only +50% and double instead of x2 and x4 respectively).
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: oslecamo on December 23, 2017, 10:53:29 AM
Added the option to go beyond 128 individuals per mob by going even bigger, one extra size per true doubling.
Title: Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
Post by: Skyrock on December 28, 2017, 03:39:16 PM
Looks pretty good from skimming over it, especially the added options such as missile volleys or mob grapples, and the better grading of HP rather than to set it always to 30HD as per the official mob template.

I might use this version in my upcoming pirate campaign as a way to handle ship crews in combat. That way they will still matter and losses will still hurt, but I will neither have to handwave them nor to keep track of individual HP for dozens of Expert 2 NPCs.