Author Topic: Discussion on Vancian Magic  (Read 21223 times)

Offline Bronzebeard

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 145
  • HELP! I'm lost!
    • View Profile
Discussion on Vancian Magic
« on: May 06, 2015, 06:25:46 AM »
Foreward:
After a discussion in my Game group during the last few days - I went back to my sketching desk and thought for long about the mechanics for the wizards in d&d and especially third edition.
I know that many a word had been written over the subject and I did went on a little journey across the web. But, alas, no webpage held the highly prized answer. Or rather, none had an answer suiting my reasoning.
The following is an attempt at an open discussion regarding the abilities and numbers of the arcane enabled character. Your input and opinion is greatly appreciated.


Main Topic - Arcane spellcasting mechanic.
Emphasize on dynamics and rules with little to no regard of the flavor.


So far, my personal experience has led me to believe that there are a few fundamental problems associated with arcane characters:
  • When running out of spell the player feels that he is no longer contributing to the party and is at a huge disadvantage. Particularly at low levels.
  • At high and end-game levels the arcane characters overshadow the rest of the team.
  • The rules for regaining spells have caused many players to simply make camp after every encounter, thus inventing the "5 minute work day" and bypassing the resource management aspect completely.
  • Items such as spellbook keeping, (holy symbol,) components, and other foci demanded too much booking and were often ignored by the players.
  • Spells often presented a simple off-switch solutions, affectionately named Save or Die, without any trade-off, penalty or otherwise.


These, in turn, give birth to a number of questions:

- What should a spent mage be allowed to do? What could be his options?
 - How should a mage regain his power?
 - What is the purpose of the spellbook?
 - What makes arcane differ from divine spellcasting?
 - What is the tradeoff for the immense high level spell's power?
 - What makes the spellcasting schools unique?
 - How can an arcane caster work with the other characters?


I would like to emphasize that what I'm looking for is not a way to solve the mentioned in-game. I don't wish to present magic-resistant monsters or have the caster amnesiac. Neither am I willing to simply swap the casting system with a different one.
Instead, I want to look at the arcane spellcasting ability as it is presented in the Core Rules materiel and adjust / change it so that it would evolve into a fun engaging thematic mechanic.

And again, thank you for reading and for your input.

Offline bluephenix

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 12:02:46 PM »
I'm not sure it really needs much tweaking past 5th ed.
The way fifth edition handles wizards recovery I think is a fair trade off and honestly, as long as you pick your cantrips in that edition carefully, you'll find using them more than most your other spells.

Honestly though, the camping  evry 5 minutes issue is something I solve by giving the group initiative to finish a given task within a certain time frame.
The last time it was solve this riddle or you and everyone else trapped here will be teleported to a random plane of hell by those weird ritualistic lines all over the place.

I think what people have to be careful off is giving low level parties too long a work day, and higher level characters too short a work day. There being afterall a natural progression in difficulty of go rescue my missing pet chicken, then come back and you can stay in my barn for free to  go storm that lodge full of skullcrusher ogres, a drow priestess and about 50 orc slaves.

So in short, let people recover half their levle in spell slots whenever they take light or no strenuous activity  for an hour or more. Make memorized cantrips infinite use and consider upgrading a couple of the offensive ones to D6s+spellcasting ability  istead of D3s. Never understood who in their right mind would pick up ray of frost... even at level 1.

As for save or die spells and the trade off in power at higher levels..., the only suggestion I can give is to limit their use with expensive conponents IF your really keen too. I personally think that wizards becoming god at lvl 20 is only fair for being less than a rat catcher at level 1. If your having some issue with a powerful wizard pretty much carrying the group at higher levels then I believe that is a matter of designign encounters more specifically to pin them down without killing him outright first round.

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 06:31:37 PM »
Something to keep in mind with the Vancian system is the potential overload of possible spells to choose from and keep track of.  That's the main reason why I'll never play a prepared caster like a cleric since it's both a lot of work and if I got into it I'd lose myself to all the optimization.

Supposedly the "balance" of high level spells is that they are able to be cast less frequently and many have the requirement of spending other resources.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 06:34:47 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Bronzebeard

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 145
  • HELP! I'm lost!
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2015, 10:00:48 AM »
Something to keep in mind with the Vancian system is the potential overload of possible spells to choose from and keep track of.  That's the main reason why I'll never play a prepared caster like a cleric since it's both a lot of work and if I got into it I'd lose myself to all the optimization.

Supposedly the "balance" of high level spells is that they are able to be cast less frequently and many have the requirement of spending other resources.

Having the balance be set by number of spells to cast is a horrible, horrible mechanic. It's simply no fun. Once arcanist runs out of juice he is, for all intents and purposes, out of the game until he can enable his 'recharge' mechanic, AKA sleep. That's silly.



I'm not sure it really needs much tweaking past 5th ed.
I'm sure it needs much work. It's nowhere near as much fun and engaging as it could be.

Honestly though, the camping  evry 5 minutes issue is something I solve by giving the group initiative to finish a given task within a certain time frame.
In essence, you are opting to solve a broken rule with an inside story reasoning. You are letting the story overwrite the game mechanics. You are ignoring the broken tool and give birth to new problems like having players unwilling to play wizards (I, to this day, am unwilling to play as a cleric). Taken to the extreme; why even bother having the rules at all, we could simply play FreeForm.


As for save or die spells and the trade off in power at higher levels..., the only suggestion I can give is to limit their use with expensive conponents IF your really keen too.
How?
 
I personally think that wizards becoming god at lvl 20 is only fair for being less than a rat catcher at level 1. If your having some issue with a powerful wizard pretty much carrying the group at higher levels then I believe that is a matter of designign encounters more specifically to pin them down without killing him outright first round.
That makes no sense.
Forcing people to play a figure that have zero impact on the action, having them come in to "play" for hours on end untill, finally, a high number of sessions afterwards, they become the god-wizards and turning the tables on the other players. Atrocious.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 12:06:11 PM »
Neither am I willing to simply swap the casting system with a different one.
Instead, I want to look at the arcane spellcasting ability as it is presented in the Core Rules materiel and adjust / change it so that it would evolve into a fun engaging thematic mechanic.

Something to keep in mind with the Vancian system is the potential overload of possible spells to choose from and keep track of.  That's the main reason why I'll never play a prepared caster like a cleric since it's both a lot of work and if I got into it I'd lose myself to all the optimization.

Supposedly the "balance" of high level spells is that they are able to be cast less frequently and many have the requirement of spending other resources.

Having the balance be set by number of spells to cast is a horrible, horrible mechanic. It's simply no fun. Once arcanist runs out of juice he is, for all intents and purposes, out of the game until he can enable his 'recharge' mechanic, AKA sleep. That's silly.
These are incompatible.  Pick one.  Either you want to use something very close to what D&D gives you -- to wit Vancian spellcasting balanced by limited uses per day -- or you want something different.

Jackinthegreen wasn't necessarily advocating that as the best way to go about balancing the mechanic.  But, he was taking your OP seriously.  If you think the limitations per day is a horrible mechanic, then you probably want to revise your initial consideration of not wanting a new spellcasting system.  That's kind of the fundamental architecture it's built around. 

It's like you're asking for ways to fix your Ford, and then complaining that there's still a Ford badge on it.

Offline Chemus

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 02:25:45 PM »
As for altering the casting mechanic without altering the spells, make a class and give it a spell list, give a schedule of spells known. Then make the casting mechanic "You may spontaneously cast any spell you know as a sorcerer casts spells, using charisma as your spellcasting ability. You are considered to always have an available slot of the highest spell level that you know."

As long as the spell list and spell levels are balanced/examined to a moderate level, it won't break anything more than spellcasting already does.

Tentative balance of spell level: 1 spell level per 3 levels; 6th level spells by 18th level. So 0-level spells to start, 1st at will when 2nd comes up for other casters, 2nd at will a level after most casters get 3rd, 3rd when most casters get 5ths, 4th after most casters get 6th, 5th when most casters get 8th, and 6th a level after other casters get 9ths.

Consider the bard list as a starting point for balancing the list.

The first problem I see is that ScM would get great mileage out of it, getting 9ths of 1.8 sor/wiz schools. Disallowing metamagic is distasteful...but may be necessary.
Apathy is ...ah screw it.
My Homebrew

Offline faeryn

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 816
  • Dedicated Spellthief: stealing all your spells
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 03:08:20 PM »
Something you could also do, is offer your casters a number of the Reserve Spell feats throughout their progression so they don't burn through their daily allotment of spells in a single encounter and are more likely to use their spells sparingly and more strategically since they will actually have an alternative option each round (usually)... or encourage them to take at least one level in Warlock for Eldritch Blast & an Invocation...

If the problem is the limit to spells per day, then just simply work around that... and there are already some tools at your disposal in the official source books to do just that.

Reserve Spells
Warlock
Spell Points Alternative Casting System
Pearls of Power...
Spellthief

just to name a few...

I would honestly just make 0-level spells unlimited use per day and offer a number (2-3) of Reserve Spell feats for free throughout their leveling process, while also encouraging them to pickup a level or two in classes like Warlock or Spellthief so that they don't feel required to setup camp between every encounter and so they will use their spells more sparingly since they will actually have other actions available (even if they are weaker alternatives... in most encounters they are using spells that are far more powerful than they need for the encounter anyway)

Offline Eldritch_Lord

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 173
  • Master of Magic
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 04:07:15 PM »
  • When running out of spell the player feels that he is no longer contributing to the party and is at a huge disadvantage. Particularly at low levels.
  • At high and end-game levels the arcane characters overshadow the rest of the team.
  • The rules for regaining spells have caused many players to simply make camp after every encounter, thus inventing the "5 minute work day" and bypassing the resource management aspect completely.
[...]

Neither am I willing to simply swap the casting system with a different one.
Instead, I want to look at the arcane spellcasting ability as it is presented in the Core Rules materiel and adjust / change it so that it would evolve into a fun engaging thematic mechanic.

If you want to keep things mostly standard Vancian but give low-level casters more staying power without giving high level casters tons of spells, here's one possible solution: go back to the AD&D spell prep mechanics where a given spell requires 10 minutes per spell level to prepare, and don't require 8 hours of rest to re-prepare the same spell that formerly occupied a slot.  A 1st-level caster with his one magic missile and one color spray, for instance, could cast each one once in combat, rest for 10 minutes to re-prepare magic missile and color spray, and repeat as necessary; if he wanted to swap magic missile out for sleep, however, he'd have to get 8 hours' rest first.  A low-level caster can thus keep on going all day given a bunch of smaller rests, but he's limited to a certain spell selection unless the whole party stops for the night.

A 20th-level wizard with 50 spells per day, meanwhile, would require 8 hours of rest plus 38 hours of spell preparation (assuming a 0th-level spell counts as 1/2 level as it does in other cases) to prep his entire spell loadout, and an hour and a half to re-prepare each 9th-level spell; he can keep going all day with his low-level spells, but needs to use his mid- and high-level spells more sparingly, and reconfiguring his spell loadout to be the perfect solution to the current problem requires taking almost two solid days off.

This makes the wizard somewhat of a sorcerer-wizard hybrid (he has the ability to change up his spells for downtime or for known threats like a wizard, but has more limited higher-level spells and a generally fixed spell selection like a sorcerer), and it addresses the 5-minute workday problem: in time-crunch situations it's not worth it to rest after every encounter to only get a handful of spells back, and in no-time-pressure situations it's no worse than standard Vancian, so it's a strict improvement.  We also have experimental evidence from AD&D that longer spell prep times discourage the 5-minute workday, but you can't entirely remove it without (A) changing things like rope trick, the frequency and severity of random encounters, and other factors that make resting during adventures relatively safe in 3e and (B) fiating that the PCs can't make smart decisions to rest when it makes sense.

It also works well in conjunction with the above suggestions to have casters pick up a few reserve feats, since under this system casters are more inclined to hang on to their top-level slots anyway and so the opportunity cost of not casting them to power reserve feats isn't as high.[/list]

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 09:09:08 PM »


Jackinthegreen wasn't necessarily advocating that as the best way to go about balancing the mechanic.  But, he was taking your OP seriously.  If you think the limitations per day is a horrible mechanic, then you probably want to revise your initial consideration of not wanting a new spellcasting system.  That's kind of the fundamental architecture it's built around. 

It's like you're asking for ways to fix your Ford, and then complaining that there's still a Ford badge on it.

Yup, there's a reason I put balance in quotes.  In practice, one needs much much more than just a per day limit on those things to properly balance them.  Having the spells themselves actually be balanced but still worthwhile is the big thing.


I think Eldritch_Lord's suggestion of the AD&D system has merit for sure, though there's more to contemplate about it.  The spell prep and switch time can be both a blessing and a curse since it does help keep the caster from running out of spell juice, but it can also lead to such significant downtime that it simply won't work for some campaigns or circumstances.  I can see it feeling like it's a significant penalty that detracts from playing such a class, and that could very easily prevent someone from even trying to play them at higher levels.

I'm now thinking about whether casters ought to have something interesting to do each round besides casting...  Yeah, it seems odd that a caster wouldn't go with their primary shtick, but having some sort of variety keeps the game from getting monotonous.  There's also something to be said about mechanics that should not be put on spells so that spellcasters can't solve every problem with just a wave of their hands.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 11:51:15 PM »
Jackinthegreen wasn't necessarily advocating that as the best way to go about balancing the mechanic.  But, he was taking your OP seriously.  If you think the limitations per day is a horrible mechanic, then you probably want to revise your initial consideration of not wanting a new spellcasting system.  That's kind of the fundamental architecture it's built around. 
Yup, there's a reason I put balance in quotes.  In practice, one needs much much more than just a per day limit on those things to properly balance them.  Having the spells themselves actually be balanced but still worthwhile is the big thing.
I agree there, Vancian Magic not cutting it use something else. Martial Adapts, Warlock/DFA, Soulmelds, Truenaming, Binders, and Shadow Magic all break the mold and can be either used as is, or give a baseline for further adaption. Psionics and Spell Point Systems using a smaller, but infinite pool (such as say <40pp/encounter), also break from Vancian Magic and thanks to a smaller cap they prevent multi-round novas. Then there is 4th's answer to magic if you feel people should suck.

And that's all before you create your own...

Offline faeryn

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 816
  • Dedicated Spellthief: stealing all your spells
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2015, 01:40:44 AM »
I'm now thinking about whether casters ought to have something interesting to do each round besides casting...  Yeah, it seems odd that a caster wouldn't go with their primary shtick, but having some sort of variety keeps the game from getting monotonous.  There's also something to be said about mechanics that should not be put on spells so that spellcasters can't solve every problem with just a wave of their hands.
I certainly agree that casters should have somthing interesting to do each round besides casting... unfortunately it seems to not be possible or really all that praactical given the limited options currently available to fill this hole... there are several psudo-caster classes that do this, but most of them don't synergize very well with a full caster and multiclassing them tends to be detrimental in most cases. Other option have heavy feat taxes or only really come into play late game typically...

Giving them a built in mechanic to fill this hole would certainly help out a lot

Offline Bronzebeard

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 145
  • HELP! I'm lost!
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2015, 11:51:31 AM »
First off:
Thank you for all your input.
(^_^)



@Unbeliever -
I will pick one. But it will not be from the two that are commonly suggested: The first option I mentioned was the usuall response of "well, simply swap vancian for something else - like mana point system". The other, to use that which is given because
Quote
That's kind of the fundamental architecture it's built around


This, I think, is only avoiding the problems with this system (or another). I want to tackle them. I look at the spellcasting system for all d&d editions and I looks to me as if it got stuck at move from 2nd to 3rd with no real innovation.

And I don't think your example match. If anything, it resembles me going to the mechanic with my faulty, but operational, car and being told to either buy a new one or use it as is.



@Chemus - I never said not to change the spells levels or affect. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I agree with tweaking some of the spells and banning a select few (I'm looking at you Wish).
Would you favor the option of choosing only Sorcerer and sorcerer-like-divine-caster?



@faeryn - I already give a Reserve Spell feat as part of the Wizard class for free. It alliviates some of the uselessness feeling for the arcane casters at low levels. Personally, I consider it a must. It seems 5th edition had done as you suggested.
Multiclassing seems wrong to me as most of the editions don't take into account the way spellcasting progressing works when adding defferent classes.



@Eldritch_Lord - Thank you for the advice. I think it fits. It won't save everything, but I think it's a good step.



@Jackinthegreen -  I've been thinking on a few options to give Wizards extra tools - replenishing power with hp drain or skill checks, maybe overclocking at the expense of next day's spells, forcing spells at the risk of escalating corruption meter and the like.
I vehemntly against opting for the 'use crossbow between spells' options.
I really want to keep the signature Vancian spellcasting rather than completely ditching it.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2015, 04:54:30 PM »
I already give a Reserve Spell feat as part of the Wizard class for free. ... I've been thinking on a few options to give Wizards extra tools - replenishing power with hp drain or skill checks, maybe overclocking at the expense of next day's spells, forcing spells at the risk of escalating corruption meter and the like.
Question.

What are you giving Sorcerers?
I mean, Sorcerer is nearly unanimously agreed upon being weaker than a Wizard, but you're handing out shiny candies to a Wizard. So what are you giving to the Sorcerer?

And then further in, since the Wizard is also nearly unanimously agreed upon as the most powerful base Class in D&D, what shinies are you handing everyone else?

And even further into it, how is this power creep altering Encounters? Do you find your self viewing CR1s and below to be Horde-only? Are planned Adventurers offering just too few creatures to fight and by extension, just not challenging?

And even further further into it, does your power creep and deprecation of printed materials make you feel like you are spending more time trying to fix D&D than playing D&D? Are you really enjoying that or is it just something to pass the time out of sheer boredom?

Offline Bronzebeard

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 145
  • HELP! I'm lost!
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2015, 08:29:24 AM »
None of my players had played a sorcerer as of yet. So I was never required to have a fix for the class.
And it's true that wizards is the most powerful class in the game, but that power only comes after the 12th level. Until then, they are one of the more miserable playing experience that you can offer.

Usually, the power change is not that significant so no real change is being needed in regard to number and toughness of the monsters and encounters. However, when the spellcasters get into their respective "god-mode"s, then power is so out of wack that no change of numbers can sufficiently change the problems.

The time I spent trying to tinker around with the rules amount to, gross, 5 or 6 years. I'm still unsatisfied with anything I came up with.
But it is worth it, I think. Just this week one of the players went home, according to what he told me, very frustrated and disappointed from not being able to contribute or do anything fun. (The party is level 2 by the way). He asked me that if he doesn't have fun then what's the point, and why should he even go the gaming nights?
And he is partly right, you know. Of-course there are hardships and the players need to tackle and overcome obstacles. However, those should come from within the story, following the rules and the parameters of the game. The players shouldn't feel like they are receiving the short end of the stick from the rules - the game itself.

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2015, 03:25:51 PM »
Level 2 and already complaining about not having fun?  What were his expectations?  What was he playing, and what was his party playing?  Were any of his class abilities useful given the challenges encountered and how the other players were performing?

If he's expecting to kick ass and take names from the get go then 3.5 doesn't deliver on that except in very specific circumstances (such as a bunch of weak enemies trying to go after a lockdown fighter with reach and Combat Reflexes).  It's not until 3rd level or later where characters even start finding a good concept to run with.  That's one of the reasons I highly dislike starting from 1st and am kinda annoyed when starting from 2nd.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2015, 10:48:10 PM »
It's not until 3rd level or later where characters even start finding a good concept to run with.  That's one of the reasons I highly dislike starting from 1st and am kinda annoyed when starting from 2nd.
Hearty +1.  I generally refuse to play 1st level characters.  It's then that meaningful choices are more readily available and characters start to distinguish from each other.  Although a handful of alchemist fire flasks can make a Wizard a credible thread sans spells at 2nd level in most games. 

Bronzebeard, you quoted me out of context.  What I wrote was:
If you think the limitations per day is a horrible mechanic, then you probably want to revise your initial consideration of not wanting a new spellcasting system.  That's [meaning limitations per day] kind of the fundamental architecture it's built around. 
I bring it up not to flog a dead horse (just bear with me ...), but b/c the bolded bit is the point that, so far, seems to be the biggest problem.  That is, that they don't have enough spells to keep doing awesome things each round and each encounter.  Yet, that kind of limited resource deployment type of decision is the balance point that Vancian Magic is built around.  Actually, it seems like that's a lot of what D&D is built around. 

That being said, if we've identified the culprit, then we can go about fixing it.  You might want to think what kind of firepower you want a Wizard-type to throw around all day.  I happen to find the Reserve Feats generally weaksauce, but figure out what you'd want them to be able to do ad infinitum (or effectively so), and go from there. 

Personally, I find that it's hard to run out of spells in your standard adventuring day after about level 6 or so.  This is doubly so with some small investment into wands, scrolls, etc.

And it's true that wizards is the most powerful class in the game, but that power only comes after the 12th level. Until then, they are one of the more miserable playing experience that you can offer.
This seems ... untrue.  I mean, once your humble Web comes online you can do pretty amazing things.  By 10th level I can be halfway through Malconvoker, and making most melee characters sob themselves to sleep in the corner since I've taken all their roles by casting a spell or two per combat. 

This:
Just this week one of the players went home, according to what he told me, very frustrated and disappointed from not being able to contribute or do anything fun. (The party is level 2 by the way). He asked me that if he doesn't have fun then what's the point, and why should he even go the gaming nights?
strikes me as a bit melodramatic.  To echo a version of Jackinthegreen's questions above, what's his expectations with the Wizard character?  The examples I used above (Web and Malconvoker) explicitly play to the Wizard's strengths.  And, as you'd expect, their ability to contribute (read:  turn the universe into their plaything) comes online early and effectively.  It may be that he's trying to pound a round peg into a square hole. 

And, how widespread is this sentiment at your gaming table?  We've seen a lot of "how do we tweak this mechanic to make this class fun?" threads in our days.  Too many.  But, as SorO noted above, Wizard is universally seen as one of the toughest classes in the game.  So, it's odd to think that it needs some serious bumping up. 

Offline Bronzebeard

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 145
  • HELP! I'm lost!
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2015, 08:32:44 AM »
Quote
It's not until 3rd level or later where characters even start finding a good concept to run with.  That's one of the reasons I highly dislike starting from 1st and am kinda annoyed when starting from 2nd.

That's one of the reasons I highly dislike starting from 1st and am kinda annoyed when starting from 2nd.

I generally refuse to play 1st level characters.


Really? Do you notice what you wrote?
This and the later mention of vast amount of spell power after 6th level tells me that this is not a singular thing. That the lower levels are unfun, unplayable and generally ignored. Most of the time people show case the high-level-god-wizard. I point that the lower levels need a look too.


Quote from: Unbeliever
Bronzebeard, you quoted me out of context.  What I wrote was:
Quote
If you think the limitations per day is a horrible mechanic, then you probably want to revise your initial consideration of not wanting a new spellcasting system.  That's [meaning limitations per day] kind of the fundamental architecture it's built around. 
I bring it up not to flog a dead horse (just bear with me ...), but b/c the bolded bit is the point that, so far, seems to be the biggest problem.  That is, that they don't have enough spells to keep doing awesome things each round and each encounter.  Yet, that kind of limited resource deployment type of decision is the balance point that Vancian Magic is built around.  Actually, it seems like that's a lot of what D&D is built around.

I'm very sorry if I made a mistake and misquoted you on something. That was not my intention. Apologies.
However - I do not think that the limitations of /per day are a bad thing. The resource management borne out of this limit is a nice aspect for the class. In contrast, the sleep-reset button is horrendous. When the player has the ability of simply using "sleep" action after every encounter then gameplay and game-balance is greatly skewed.


Quote
strikes me as a bit melodramatic.  To echo a version of Jackinthegreen's questions above, what's his expectations with the Wizard character?  The examples I used above (Web and Malconvoker) explicitly play to the Wizard's strengths.  And, as you'd expect, their ability to contribute (read:  turn the universe into their plaything) comes online early and effectively.  It may be that he's trying to pound a round peg into a square hole.

It may be so. Yet, this is not something I'm discussing. I, definitely, have a mixed bag of people in my group. One of them usually follows the rule-of-cool and has no understanding of the math and therefore plays the shittiest characters I have ever seen. Another simply wants to roll dice. etc.
Be that as it may, what I'm actually asking is tweaking and optimizing the system pre-character creation.
Yes, it's wasteful, and yes, it's time consuming. Still, I think it is a worthwhile endeavor. The topic is shown at Libertad's second post's link to his insightful blog post.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2015, 02:05:57 PM »
You do know that Jack was referring to all 1st and 2nd players being kind of unfun to play, right?  Not just spellcasters/wizards.  This is an acknowledged problem in the system, although one that's at least pretty easy to solve.  It's not a wizard-specific issue.  And, if you're going to turn a dial for one class, and a powerful one to boot, you should keep an eye on what that means to the other classes. 

As to rest mechanic, you could just eliminate it and move back to a stricter "per day" one.  That's a pretty easy fix to implement.  I don't think it'd give you everything you want -- which, is kind of a bunch of things, some of which might be mutually exclusive or very un-D&D -- but it's easy.  An encounter-based ToB-style mechanic for spells might make you happier if you can figure out how to implement it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 02:10:52 PM by Unbeliever »

Offline faeryn

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 816
  • Dedicated Spellthief: stealing all your spells
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2015, 09:56:22 PM »
If your players insist on resting after every encounter to regain their lost spells, you can equally insist on "this is not a safe place to rest" spring a random encounter on them after so many hours of "rest" to keep them from hitting that 8 hour mark when they decide to make camp between encounters... Or do as Unbeliever suggests and revert to the strict /day reset eliminating rest from the equation.

In the campaign I'm in we're required to rest to regain spells, BUT... resting for 8 hours mid day to regain spells used that morning doesn't work... We have to get 8 hours of rest & proceed to the next day... basically if I use my spells in the morning, then rest 8 hours, I'll gain back those spells after midnight but not any spells I used that evening until I rest another 8 hours... in the end it's to much of a hassle to keep track of how many spells were used when and how much rest was done since then and if it's the next day or not so as a result, we just rest at night rather than between encounters.


I've played around with encounter based mechanics in my head before, and while the idea sounds appealing, in most circumstances it's really not all that good... it detracts from any element of strategy involved in using such abilities. Spellcasters are supposed to be intellectual classes, using their wit and cunning to outsmart their enemies and back them into a carefully set trap. To a spellcaster a battle is like a game of chess and each piece on the board is a spell, they want to lose as few spells as possible while eliminating their enemy in the most efficient and strategic manner they can... or conversely they want to toy with the enemy and enjoy the show.

I stand by the best solution to this problem is to provide your spellcasters with an interesting alternative to expending their spells each round (reserve spells are great for this, and you're already using them), beyond that all other solutions should be through story (no time to rest, not a safe place to rest, your camp was discovered while you rested, ect...) Just because the mechanics say "they can rest to get spells back", doesn't mean you have to give them that opportunity every time they try. Sometimes you must push the players to be more strategic with their resources and to continue on rather than resting every time they fight something.

As for players feeling they have no fun because they don't get to do much in an encounter, create encounters tailored towards each party member's strengths and weaknesses. Don't stick to generic hack'n'slash encounters, create an encounter where the parties rogue might be the most useful person, or an encounter where only the wizard can get them through safely, and for the warriors an encounter where the wizard is less than spectacular... (that's not to say render the other party members useless in some encounters, just less useful than they normally are... like an encounter may have enemies with high spell resistance that the wizard has a hard time overcoming, or is highly resistant to the types of spells your wizard uses the most... a rogue would be most useful in an encounter that involves a chase through a trap filled corridor or perhaps the BBEG has set traps all over the room that the party is to fight him in...)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 09:59:27 PM by faeryn »

Offline Eldritch_Lord

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 173
  • Master of Magic
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion on Vancian Magic
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2015, 11:14:58 PM »
I'm now thinking about whether casters ought to have something interesting to do each round besides casting...  Yeah, it seems odd that a caster wouldn't go with their primary shtick, but having some sort of variety keeps the game from getting monotonous.

Quote from: faeryn
I stand by the best solution to this problem is to provide your spellcasters with an interesting alternative to expending their spells each round (reserve spells are great for this, and you're already using them),

Alternately, why not make the "interesting thing to do every round" the baseline effect of every spell, rather than most spells being one-and-done and tacking on generic reserve feats to modify them?

By that, I mean that there are a bunch of spells that are cast once and then used for multiple rounds (flaming sphere, manyjaws, call lightning, prismatic eye, etc.), so there's precedent for tweaking most combat-usable spells to work the same way.  Instead of one big change, stone shape would let you create walls, attack with earth spikes, etc. for a short duration; black tentacles would let you summon one or two tentacles per round within range rather than creating one AoE; dimension door could be used for multiple shorter teleports; summon monster IV could be used to summon up to 3 SMIII critters, 9 SMII critters, etc. over a few minutes; and so forth.

So instead of a wizard pre-casting a lot of buffs and then casting 1 (or 2 at higher levels) spell per round for 3-6 rounds in every encounter, a wizard could have a long-duration buff or two going and cast 1 or 2 spells total in an encounter (or whatever cap on concurrent spells you want to use) and uses those for the duration of the encounter; basically, every spell gets its own short-duration reserve feat.  It would require a lot of rewriting of stuff, but most rewrites would be fairly intuitive like the ones above, and it would simplify spell prep quite a bit: instead of needing to figure out exactly how many dimension doors, cones of cold, solid fogs, and summon monsters a wizard needs per day, he can just say "I'm expecting three encounters against fire creatures today" or "I want to BFC in two encounters today" and go on that.  And it would keep the very Vancian flavor of needing only one spell to win an encounter, just not in such a way that the wizard wins the whole thing in the surprise round and the rest of the party twiddles their thumbs.