Note:Thanks to awaken_D_M_golem I can post the original Incentive To Play A Kobold thread **
Khan the Destroyer
08-09-05, 04:01 AM
There was a thread a little while ago about the potential abuse of the Sarrukh monsters from Serpent Kingdoms. El_Machinae used a rather conservative interpretation of the RAW. I'm just taking it as I see it.
The Sarrukh has a SU ability called Manipulate Form that allows it to add/take away abilities to any Scaly Kind creature (which includes anything from Kobolds to Lizard Folk to people with Yuan-ti grafts and the Snake Blooded feat). The Sarrukh can:
-Increase an ability score up to a number equal to its own same ability score
-Add tentacles/arms/legs/wings/snake torso/human torso
-Give the creature an extraordinary/supernatural/spell-like ability
-Change the size of the creature
Note, these effects are all permanent alterations. And they are non-magical.
So, my friend and I were thinking. The scenario has 2 Kobolds. At least one is a 12th level Egoist with Overchannel and Metamorphic Transfer. It uses Overchannel to Metamorph into a Sarrukh, and uses Metamorphic Transfer to use its Manipulate Form ability. It uses Manipulate Form to give the other Kobold Manipulate Form. The second Kobold gives the first kobold Manipulate Form (after it returns to its original form).
Ok, now both Kobolds permanently have Manipulate Form.
Kobold 1: Metamorphs into a Sea Drake, gaining a strength of 35. He uses Manipulate Form to grant Kobold 2 a 35 Strength. Kobold 1 returns to his original form.
Kobold 1: Uses Manipulate Form to turn Kobold 2 Colossal. Kobold 2 gains a +36 size increase to his Strength score, making it a total of 71.
Kobold 2: Uses Manipulate Form to increase Kobold 1's Strength score to 71. He then increases Kobold 1 to Colossal size. Kobold 1 gains a +36 size bonus to his Strength, making it a total of 107.
Both Kobolds return each other to their normal size, rinse, and repeat.
The same thing can be done with Dexterity. The Kobold turns into a Will-O-Wisp, gaining a Dexterity of 29. Then they take turns reducing their sizes, increasing their Dexterity by +6 each time they attain Fine size.
Note, the Metamorph isn't needed, but it gives a higher base to start from.
For Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, which aren't affected by Metamorphosis, the Kobolds can use Animal Affinity.
Kobold 1 uses Animal Affinity to increase his Intelligence from 16 to 20 (as an example). He then increases Kobold 2's Intelligence to 20 with Manipulate Form permanently. Kobold 1 dismisses the Animal Affinity, so his Intelligence is 16 again. Kobold 2 uses Manipulate Form to increase Kobold 1's Intelligence to 20 permanently. Kobold 1 uses Animal Affinity to increase his own Intelligence from 20 to 24. They repeat the process until they are satisfied with their Intelligence, and then move onto the other ability scores.
So, the Kobolds have whatever ability scores they pretty much wish for, power points permitting for the day
: . Each day they can just keep the combo going for a while, and buff their stats like crazy.
Aside from that, they can grant each other any extraordinary/supernatural/spell-like ability. We can all see where that is going.
It just seems too easy to break though. Nothing in the text says there is any limit. What is stopping the kobolds from giving each other Wish as a spell-like ability? Sarrukh's cannot be affected by Manipulate Form, and I can see why they wouldn't give such powerful abilities to their servitors. But these kobolds could do it.
A wizard can do this at level 17 with Shapechange, or at a lower level with a scroll (as El_Machinae suggested in his thread). The only thing I find more tempting about the wizard build is the familiar. You can get a viper familiar and totally buff him like crazy. You can give your tiny serpent a human torso, arms, and legs, and call him 'Little Man'. And Little Man could have a 100 in each ability score, and all sorts of extraordinary or supernatural abilities, like DR, Regeneration, Swallow Whole, etc... The wizard could just sit back and let his omnipotent familiar handle the encounters.
'Get him Little Man!' the wizard yells as the 6 inch feral man leaps from his robes and eviscerates his target. My friend and I were laughing hysterically at the thought.
I used kobolds because they have no LA and are considered Scaly Kind. If your DM allows LA Buy-Off, then Poison Dusk Lizardfolk from MM3 are LA+1 and a lot less pathetic than kobolds. Also, any yuan-ti graft will apparently qualify you.
Gives me incentive to play a Kobold
. Unless of course I am missing something illegal in the 'builds' (or combo). Any thoughts?
A Man In Black
08-09-05, 04:29 AM
The LA on Tainted One is low enough to work, too. If you want to use a subpar choice that isn't kobald, there's always the Reptilian template from SS.
And wow. Woooow. That's just ridiculous.
Tonight is just totally-awesome-broken-ridiculousness night.
runestar
08-09-05, 07:32 AM
Yes, I feel it would be doable. In fact, I felt that was the only reason why anyone would play a sarrukh, to buff your party's ability scores to the nines and do all sorts of funny ability manipulations. That was about the only thing worthy of the henious +8 LA.
Vecna
08-09-05, 09:12 AM
You just discovered that Dragons are just mutated Kobolds...
:
Wizard Random
08-09-05, 09:19 AM
Wait what book, and what page. I have never heard of that book before. Is it made for Dnd or just a d20 book. That is insane, and i WANT it.
Khan the Destroyer
08-09-05, 11:56 AM
The LA on Tainted One is low enough to work, too. If you want to use a subpar choice that isn't kobald, there's always the Reptilian template from SS.
I totally forgot about the Reptilian template, and Tainted One. The idea of a Tainted One running around more powerful than any other Yuan-ti or even their creators, the Sarrukhs, is just funny.
So, low ECL's that can get you this combo are:
Kobold (LA+0)
Lizardfolk (2 HD, LA+1)
Reptilian Template (LA+2)
Poisondusk Lizardfolk (LA+1)
Anyone with the Snake Blooded Regional feat from FR
Anyone with a Yuan-ti graft
You just discovered that Dragons are just mutated Kobolds...
Yeah, maybe every Sacled One on Toril is actually a descedant of Kobold stock
. Sarrukhs were like 'We can make it bigger, faster, stronger. Well... we can improve just about anything, they're so pitiful.'
Wait what book, and what page. I have never heard of that book before.
Sarrukhs are a monster in Serpent Kingdom, a supplement for Forgotten Realms detailing Yuan-ti and other serpent people. Page 80.
DisposableHero_
08-09-05, 12:11 PM
........... :OMG! wow, good catch....
ChaosRabbit
08-09-05, 03:10 PM
Congrats.You just made a Kobold that is better than the tarrasque.
Actually you just made 2
Kobolds are broken
By the way, 1st time post from a loong time lurker. YAY!
Khan the Destroyer
08-09-05, 04:29 PM
Congrats.You just made a Kobold that is better than the tarrasque.
Thanks
. But actually, these Kobolds can be much much stronger than just the tarrasque. They can have any number imaginable for an ability score. And then they can give themselves all sorts of other abilities, like: immunity to weapons/magic, every spell as a spell-like ability at-will, any feat they want, etc..
Kobolds are broken
Yeah, they were just hiding it under that -4 strength and small size
.
By the way, 1st time post from a loong time lurker. YAY!
Welcome
.
Kadasbrass
08-09-05, 10:42 PM
You just discovered that Dragons are just mutated Kobolds...
:
Good Job Khan the Destoryer, I'm posting a link to this thread in the Kobold foundation just because of the laughs I got out of it
May of got an idea for an adventure too.
EvilVegan
08-09-05, 11:28 PM
Size bonuses don't stack.
Wouldn't those Str mods just be size mods?
I'd have to read the ability, but still, good job.
Just wanted to be the first parade rainer.
Khan the Destroyer
08-10-05, 02:14 AM
Size bonuses don't stack.
Very true.
Wouldn't those Str mods just be size mods?
No. The Manipulate Form ability is not granting a size bonus to strength, it is merely increasing the strength of the one kobold to match the strength of the second kobold. So...
Kobold 1 enlarges Kobold 2 to colossal size. Kobold 2 gains a +36 size bonus to Strength. So, if his starting strength was 10 (for example), Kobold 2 now has a 46 strength. Kobold 2 then uses Manipulate Form to increase Kobold 1's strength to match his own. So Kobold 1's strength rises from 10 to 46 as well, even though he is not changing size. Kobold 2 isn't granting Kobold 1 a size bonus to strength, he is merely changing his strength score permanently up to a number equal to his own strength.
I hope I explained it well enough, I'm sure I would do better in person
.
Just wanted to be the first parade rainer.
Strange desire... but no worries. No rain here, just blue skies, and uber kobolds.
A Man In Black
08-10-05, 08:26 AM
You know, I just remembered...a human with the Snake Blood feat is considered a Scaled One.
You don't even really have to be a kobald or an LA race.
Slim-the-sneaky
08-10-05, 01:47 PM
yeah but another super uber human is not really as cool as mega-kobolds.
rock on man
A Man In Black
08-10-05, 11:03 PM
You could also use the new Extaminaar race from Champions of Ruin. +0 LA.
A Man In Black
08-11-05, 07:19 PM
I did a little research, because I was bored. Want to take advantage of this abuse?
You can be...
Kobold (LA +0)
Lizardfolk (2 HD, LA +1)
Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (LA +1)
Extaminaar (LA +0, from Champions of Ruin)
Some of the lesser Nagas from OA (LA varies)
Reptilian Template (LA +2)
Chameleon Creature (LA +2)
A human with the Snake Blooded feat from PGtF
Anyone with a Yuan-ti graft
Any scaly non-draconic familiar, like a viper or a horned lizard (Sand)
I love how every single abuse of this trick requires that you make a seriously sub-par choice to get access.
Khan the Destroyer
08-11-05, 09:19 PM
I did a little research, because I was bored. Want to take advantage of this abuse?
You can be...
Kobold (LA +0)
Lizardfolk (2 HD, LA +1)
Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (LA +1)
Extaminaar (LA +0, from Champions of Ruin)
Some of the lesser Nagas from OA (LA varies)
Reptilian Template (LA +2)
Chameleon Creature (LA +2)
A human with the Snake Blooded feat from PGtF
Anyone with a Yuan-ti graft
Any scaly non-draconic familiar, like a viper or a horned lizard (Sand)
I had a smaller list somewhere up above. But this one is longer
. Good job.
I love how every single abuse of this trick requires that you make a seriously sub-par choice to get access.
Pretty much
. You just sit by and play the waiting game. Let the other players have their temporary glory, and look at you with pity as you dwell in your sub-parness. Then, at level 12... break out of your cocoon of low-stats and cumbersome level adjustments and become the infinite powerhouse butterfly you were destined to be.
Or... something like that.
I'm going to come up with a sample build just to see what it's like.
A Man In Black
08-11-05, 09:57 PM
I'm going to come up with a sample build just to see what it's like.
I think the most optimal choice might be the Extaminaar. You're making a wizard or psion, after all, and Extaminaar are -2 str and +2 con, on top of some other class features.
Of course, kobald is much more stylish.
Khan the Destroyer
08-11-05, 10:17 PM
I think the most optimal choice might be the Extaminaar. You're making a wizard or psion, after all, and Extaminaar are -2 str and +2 con, on top of some other class features.
Sounds pretty good. Unfortunately, I don't have Champions of Ruin, so I don't know the race's other specs. Maybe I can sneak a peak at the store tomorrow.
Of course, kobald is much more stylish.
Yeah, I was thinking of two different examples. One Human with the snake-blooded feat, and one Kobold.
Dragon3
08-13-05, 11:23 AM
Your DM may well be within his own rights to slap LA on you for your extra abilities. After all LA reflect extra abilities and the like. You can have it but you'll need harder challenges to gain exp
. Any idea of how much you can slap on before triggering LA? Hmm seem you can avoid getting slapped with LA by buffing up your familar instead. What's the wording of this ability? Once you gain it, can you modify anyone at all? Or you cast polymorph on them and then modify away? Example I like warforged. Can 2 warforged wizard polymorphed do it?
Nifft
08-13-05, 12:08 PM
Your DM may well be within his own rights to slap LA on you for your extra abilities.
Your DM would be well within his own rights to pimp-slap you into the next Plane, but that's irrelevant... it's a great (ab)use of kobolds!
-- N
Dragon3
08-13-05, 01:26 PM
Here we go. Page 11 on level adjustment factors.
Dragon3
08-13-05, 01:29 PM
You know, best strategy would be get to MasTrans 10 level ability and abuse the hell out of it. You can get that ability as as secondary ability and apply it to your favored form. You don't have to be an Sarrukh. Just make sure you're reptilian or your favored form is. This eliminate the need for 2 characters. I was wrong, infinite variety state that special ability must be EX. damm
Dragon3
08-13-05, 01:49 PM
First post gave me this idea. Just have your omnipotent familar enhance you up. Still working on how to extend this to warforged wizard. Hmmm.
Khan the Destroyer
08-13-05, 03:43 PM
Here we go. Page 11 on level adjustment factors.
The point isn't that you can actually play this guy at level 12 or 17. It's just that by the rules you can make the most powerful character ever. LA or not, he's uber beyond belief.Just have your omnipotent familar enhance you up.Whups, I guess I didn't really clarify that. Yes, that is how the wizard pulls it off. The two kobold psions use each other, and the wizard uses his familiar.Still working on how to extend this to warforged wizard.I'm not sure. I'm working on a couple of example builds right now. If Warforged can use grafts, than a simple Yuan-ti graft can do it.
Dragon3
08-13-05, 11:36 PM
What about templates? As written it doesnt add any. I was just thinking of a divine rank. Is that beyound the reach of the ability? Certainly there's dragon gods and reptilian gods all over the places but I don't think you can add their divine ranks.
Prak, the Mad
08-14-05, 05:00 PM
It just seems too easy to break though. Nothing in the text says there is any limit. What is stopping the kobolds from giving each other Wish as a spell-like ability? Sarrukh's cannot be affected by Manipulate Form, and I can see why they wouldn't give such powerful abilities to their servitors. But these kobolds could do it.
a very strict interpretation of the rule that Sarrukhs can't be affected would be that creatures with manipulate form can't be affected. but that's up to the DM, as a DM, I would require a Will save vrs. loss of Sanity(either using Sanity points, or the rules for half-golem limbs) as a limitation of the ability.
Khan the Destroyer
08-14-05, 05:32 PM
a very strict interpretation of the rule that Sarrukhs can't be affected would be that creatures with manipulate form can't be affected. but that's up to the DM, as a DM, I would require a Will save vrs. loss of Sanity(either using Sanity points, or the rules for half-golem limbs) as a limitation of the ability.
Actually, a very strict interpretation would mean that only Sarruhks cannot be affected, as that is exactly what the ability says.
I'm almost done with the sample build, there are a lot of numbers involved
.
evilgenius
08-14-05, 09:12 PM
I'm in a non-psionic campaign;
What's the earliest that this can be done as a non-psion? I'm asuming Arcane caster here...
Would it be 4th level polymorph or 9th level shapechange?
Khan the Destroyer
08-14-05, 09:42 PM
I'm in a non-psionic campaign;
What's the earliest that this can be done as a non-psion? I'm asuming Arcane caster here...
Would it be 4th level polymorph or 9th level shapechange?
It would have to be 9th level Shapechange, because Polymorph doesn't give you supernatural abilities. I think El_Machinae used a scroll of polymorph in his example, so if you can afford one, do it as early as your DM will allow you to buy one (I think he said 11th level).
Shwepie
08-15-05, 02:53 AM
Then, at level 12... break out of your cocoon of low-stats and cumbersome level adjustments and become the infinite powerhouse butterfly you were destined to be.
O.o
Is that a Kung Fu Hustle referance?
Also, does anyone know if the ability transfer only the base score, or the current score?
Cause if it transfers the current, the two Kobolds could get magic equipment to wear, maybe inharent bonuses or better yet both! Then slap each other across the face every round, getting a increase of up to 11 in one ability every 6 seconds. Without having to transform into anything.
Slim-the-sneaky
08-16-05, 03:12 AM
O.o
Also, does anyone know if the ability transfer only the base score, or the current score?
it's current so yes it is awesome Khan is going to re-post this so if you can wait for that then prepare to catch your jaw (save it from going through the floor)
Khan the Destroyer
08-28-05, 02:27 AM
Here is the link to the example build.... right.... here (
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801).
And jameswilliamogle made a good point. Essentially, any race could pull this off just by manifesting Metamorphosis enough times. The human becomes a Sarruhk and his psicrystal becomes a snake. The human gives his psicrystal Manipulate Form. He dismisses the power. He manifests Metamorphosis again, but this time becomes a troglodyte. His psicrystal grants him the Manipulate Form ability. Presto.
Wow, it was so simple... I can't believe I missed it. Good catch again jameswilliamogle.
Lionhearted
10-21-05, 03:46 PM
came to think of a con loooong ago. when a girl advised me to get a shocker lizard familiar and all girls admiriation (sp). use this build on a shocker lizard?
(i know the shocker lizard makes the char weaker... but with this build? who cares?)
" haha did they sent a lizard to defeat us?
:schemes: "dragon not lizard"
"huh?"
CHADABRADAKAAAZZZZZ
btw this is why i supect all kobolds to be ninjas ,,, the enemy you dont expect is the most dangerous (whiped an entire party with 2 kobold ninjas of the parties lvl once)
ps. i <3
:
Elvis Gone Warlock
10-24-05, 10:43 AM
I thought the sarrukh could only do extraordinary abilities...
tsuyoshikentsu
10-24-05, 10:00 PM
(whiped an entire party with 2 kobold ninjas of the parties lvl once)
Did the same thing.
Kobold ninjas rock.
Lionhearted
10-25-05, 09:46 AM
Did the same thing. Kobold ninjas rock.
I KNOW !
after that all kobolds where KoS... even if it was a new party. guess if they hated me when i put in half ogre psions
Quenditar
12-01-05, 05:41 PM
:bump: As the very beginning of Pun-Pun, this thread should go down in history.
Kurama Youko
02-14-06, 11:30 PM
Khan you have inspired me and a Friend to use the same trick but we wont go astronomical with it.
I myself plan on using the Rilkans from Magic Incarnum as the base race. No LA and very good looking race. (That may sound shallow, but hey.. technically though through use of MF I could be a kobold and just augment myself asking my companion to make the desired alterations to myself.)
Anyway, we are drooling at the mouth, not at the idea of giving our selves crazy things like 1000 str, which we wont be doing anyway, but the idea that we can augment our selves permenately and basically mold ourselves into the perfect species and thus creating a new species altogether since our off spring will inherent any changes we make on our selves so long as we breed with members of our original kind. NEW RACES!!!!
So basically take a Rilkan add claws like that of a half dragon of the same size, wings of a dragon of the same size (with equal flight speed and manuverability), Fangs of a Viper of the same size (minus any changes to the face except for the fangs and the ability to hide them in our mouths.) plus the poison which will be based on half our HD+Con+10. The Senses of a Dragon (Darkvision, Lowlight-Vision, 60ft Blindsense), Regeneration of a Troll, and Natural Armor of 4, and SR of 11+HD from Drow.
We are pretty much gonna mimic the ability scores of the Sarrukh as well. All this for a 20th lv Campaign that is coming up. Man, we are gonna pimp, or get kicked out.. either way its gonna be fun. My friend is gonna be the one originally with the idea and give me the Manipulate Form ability as well as his familiar, and thus it all starts from there.
MagicWar1
07-08-06, 07:44 PM
Here is the link to the example build.... right.... here (
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801).
And jameswilliamogle made a good point. Essentially, any race could pull this off just by manifesting Metamorphosis enough times. The human becomes a Sarruhk and his psicrystal becomes a snake. The human gives his psicrystal Manipulate Form. He dismisses the power. He manifests Metamorphosis again, but this time becomes a troglodyte. His psicrystal grants him the Manipulate Form ability. Presto.
Wow, it was so simple... I can't believe I missed it. Good catch again jameswilliamogle.
He wouldn't even have to become a Troglodyte. Since as a few people have pointed out in other threads, it doesn't actually say that the abilities given to the familiar have to be ones exactly like abilities that already exist, you could give it a twisted version of Manipulate Form. I am personally partial to calling it Universal Manipulation. Why waste minutes going back and forth, when instead you could simply give the little beastie who is your buddy the ability to affect anything in existence simply by looking at it, giving it any ability score it wants, whether above or below their own scores. No save. Throw in DR 500/-, and you are now immortal, heck just throw in an ability called Immortal. Woo! fun.
Edit: Aw dagnabbit. I need to start paying attention to when the last post was...
Chosen of the Dark Sun
07-08-06, 09:31 PM
Wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this just Diet Pun-Pun?
Tempest Stormwind
07-08-06, 10:25 PM
Wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this just Diet Pun-Pun?
If you'd check the Pun-Pun thread, you'd have seen that this was the thread that spawned him. And then we discovered exactly what such an ability meant.
Mud
07-08-06, 11:17 PM
I thought the sarrukh could only do extraordinary abilities...
Well, the Serpent Kingdoms excerpt here (
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040709a&page=3) has a stat block for Pil'it'ith, an example sarrukh, and his Manipulate Form ability does say it only grants extraordinary abilities. Of course, that's just his version of the ability, and since I don't have the book I don't know if a normal sarrukh's Manipulate Form grants supernatural and spell-like abilities in addition to extraordinary ones. But I trust the CO boards when they say it does grant them, and even if it doesn't, there's still plenty of things to abuse with the ability.
(And I'm also pretty sure this has been answered on the Pun-Pun thread, but I don't want to wade through 30 pages to find it.
)
Tempest Stormwind
07-08-06, 11:46 PM
It's quoted in its entirety on the very first post of the Pun-Pun topic.
CriminalTruth
11-16-06, 01:35 AM
I've been debating.. what would you guys do if someone tried to pull this off in ur game? lol
Tleilaxu_Ghola
11-16-06, 01:41 AM
Slap him/her upside the head with my dice bag.