Author Topic: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1  (Read 3964 times)

Offline Endarire

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> > > > LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1 < < < <

I ported this from the BrilliantGameologists board today and found formatting differences.  Presently, just read the BG version for prettier formatting if you can.  I'm backing the guide up here in its slightly less pretty state.

Offline eggynack

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2016, 08:49:39 AM »
I don't buy the claim that elemental (any) refers to all elementals. I mean, your only stated argument is that there aren't any other elementals sitting alongside small elementals in the summon monster list, but that claim doesn't really work. After all, while you can't find any other elementals at SM III, you can find other small elementals at other spell levels, particularly storm elementals at SM IV. Even if you want to stick to core here, SNA II has small elementals and SNA III has thoqquas, which are small elementals. So, if we're looking at all this on any basis of intent, then it's really clear that the intent doesn't line up with your claimed rules working.

Edit: I mean, jeez, what does greater and elder elemental summoning even mean if (any) is interpreted broadly? This argument doesn't even hold consistent in the context of this particular type of elemental summoning.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 09:14:44 AM by eggynack »

Offline ketaro

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2016, 02:16:30 PM »
Thoqquas have an elemental subtype but are listed separately from elemental.

Offline eggynack

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2016, 12:35:16 AM »
I'm rather confounded by this whole thing. I just looked at the old version of this handbook, and people back then also noted the massive holes in the underlying operation of your summoning tricks. And then, as now, you weirdly ignored the holes. What's the point of any of this if your handbook is going to maintain wholly incorrect, and presumably known to be incorrect, information. As is, this reads as a sort of guide to how to do optimal elemental tricks if you choose to ignore all rules and context. 

Offline Chemus

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2016, 11:06:34 AM »
(click to show/hide)

Endarire's position seems to be that since the Summon Elemental feat lets you "summon a Small elemental (air, earth, fire, or water; your choice)," you can actually choose 'any Small creature with the elemental type, of the air, earth, fire, or water subtype.' The capitalization shows that that's a Size Word, but perhaps not a creature name, but a type. This same reasoning would permit a druid to have any Small elemental (type) in place of its animal companion.

For the druid ACF, the context does not support this reading, as the elemental advances to Medium, Large, then Huge, which seems to be RAI as the creature named 'elemental.' The reserve feat has similar wording, except that you can't choose to have smaller elementals increase in Str/Con/HD rather than increase their size.

It's slightly more nebulous than I'd first thought, but still seems to be the specific creature, as each ability should be assumed to be specific, but the designers aren't always as clear as they could be.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 12:14:03 PM by Chemus »
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Offline ketaro

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2016, 02:03:39 PM »
Basically, if this ability to summon any kind of creature with simply a corresponding elemental subtype (rather than being explicitly Fire, Earth, Air, or Water elementals) then both SNA and SM summon lists wouldn't countain creatures that are not explicitly a Fire, Air, Earth, or Water Elemental as they'd already be considered underneath the umbrella "size Elemental (any)" creature.

But that's not how the lists are set up, in any way you look at these two spells they only are referring explicitly to the 4 base Elemental creatures in the Monster Manual that is part of Core.

So, like some one else said already, what's the point of this guide (and then even just reposting this guide) if it only works when you ignore the actual rules the game runs on?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2016, 02:41:20 PM »
Umm... I feel like I missed something. The 4th post very clearly mentions small & the basic four while the 3rd's ominious any elemental is talking about a Improved Elemental Summoning Feat which is a homebrew written by Endarire to begin with. So given date stamps on edits, did I miss something buried in spoiler text or was it already fixed two days ago?

I'm curious to know which.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 02:44:35 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Chemus

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2016, 03:24:57 PM »
The text I was writing about is under the 'How this works' and 'Controversies' spoilers. The rest of the guide, as you said, is standard rules, AFAICT.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2016, 03:50:09 PM »
Ahh I see it now.
Quote
Summon monster seems to support my definition of "Elemental," since summon monster III says "Elemental, Small (any)," and there are no other summonable creatures of the Elemental type.
From Endarire's limited prospective of knowledge this is true and so he overlooked his assumption.

And when faced with a correction this is his response.
Quote
When can I summon a Storm Elemental (Monster Manual III 48)?
They're Elementals with the [Air] descriptor, which may make them Air Elementals for purposes of Summon Elemental.  Also, the summon spells say Small Elemental (any), but Storm Elementals can be explicitly summoned 1 spell level later.  Ask your DM at which levels you can summon Storms.
In other words, to him Storm Elementals are a special exception, that in no way can prove his earlier assumption based on his limited knowledge wrong and he still asserts that you can summon any Elemental ever.

All I can say is welcome to a day in my life.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2016, 05:48:12 PM »
Don't cross the streams threads, SorO... :eh
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Offline eggynack

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2016, 05:50:10 PM »
In other words, to him Storm Elementals are a special exception, that in no way can prove his earlier assumption based on his limited knowledge wrong and he still asserts that you can summon any Elemental ever.

All I can say is welcome to a day in my life.
It's kinda an argument, in a  theoretical sense. It's not like it's fully against RAW. But it's incredibly thin, at best. The claim is, at best, an ambiguous one, and any fair reading of intent works against it. To be clear though, the thing about storm elementals is clearly wrong. There's no ambiguity surrounding that there text. And, to be even more clear, the problems here don't rely on other books or much of anything. An argument from greater elementals works just as well.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2016, 12:44:53 PM »
It's not like it's fully against RAW.
RAW really is a myth. Endarire's stance fundamentally is using one precedent, the misreading of a table entry, to lay guidelines for selecting stuff that would otherwise not have any rules supporting the claim. "Rules As Written" fundamentally requires written rules.  ;)

Likewise, while the word "Elemental" can mean different things we're not talking about RAW but interpretation. There is nothing to suggest Summon Monster was talking about Types and from it's 4th level Spell we can see contrary evidence because there is no such thing as a Mephit Type. Endarire basically just listened to a speaker and intended or not when he turned around and repeated it what he said was a fabricated lie. Claiming it's rooted in misunderstanding lessens the morality of the mistake but a mistake it will always be. RAI is the only rule-supported intent that matters.

What we are truly dealing with is the adjudication of the rules. Let me reiterate, it's not the interpretation because the meanings are pretty clear for the most part and the rules of where say a Taint Elemental should appear, if at all, on the list don't exist, we are purely dealing with adjudication of the rules based on known precedents. And this is where the Storm Elemental comes in, while "any" is being taken as a very wide binary concept of inclusion or not that is of course a false dichotomy. It's possible to appear on a Summon Monster list without being included within a specific entry. This complicates where, if at all, the example Taint Elemental could appear. And this reboils down to good or bad ruling when placed, or as the DMG/RC would say balance is also an equal part of handling the rules.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 12:59:45 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline eggynack

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2016, 02:22:45 PM »
RAW really is a myth.
I wouldn't go that far. There are things that cannot be handled  fully by RAW, when text could plausibly be referring to two separate possibilities, or when there is an unresolvable conflict between two texts. Thus, the notion that RAW is all solving is indeed a myth. However, there are many problems that can be fully resolved through a proper and full understanding of the rules. In fact, I'd wager that there are more problems that can be solved than problems that can not be, just because language isn't usually ambiguous or in conflict with other explicit language. Sometimes pure logic works.

In any case, this is indeed a problem that has no apparent perfect RAW solution. Does "elemental" refer specifically to creatures with that type, creatures with that name, creatures that lie under that heading, or, even further, creatures that lie under that heading in the book where the reference exists? It is essentially impossible to create a perfect piece of logical reasoning that proves that it is definitely one of those things, as opposed to the others. So, you must look at the surrounding text for context that would imply what elemental is referring to. And, unfortunately for his argument, just about any context that exists is pointing in the exact opposite direction from his claim. About the only thing I can think of that isn't present is a small elemental that's at that level in the same book.

Quote
Endarire basically just listened to a speaker and intended or not when he turned around and repeated it what he said was a fabricated lie. Claiming it's rooted in misunderstanding lessens the morality of the mistake but a mistake it will always be. RAI is the only rule-supported intent that matters.
I agree, and the fact that he should now know it's a mistake raises the level of immorality involved. He's just kinda actively spreading misinformation now, which sucks.

Offline Endarire

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2016, 05:23:53 PM »
My apologies about the confusion.  The port was a quick project due to frustrations with formatting on this MinMaxBoard.  I corrected the misinformation spots I found thanks to y'all's efforts and mentioned y'all in the credits.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Let's Discuss LOES: Spamming and Summoning Elementals From Level 1
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2016, 01:53:25 AM »
I have no opinion on this thread. Except the weird feat that's separated from everything else, it's not that noteworthy. The only difficulty I see is in managing that 4th level slot to fuel the main reserve feat.

Ahh I see it now.
Quote
Summon monster seems to support my definition of "Elemental," since summon monster III says "Elemental, Small (any)," and there are no other summonable creatures of the Elemental type.
From Endarire's limited prospective of knowledge this is true and so he overlooked his assumption.
I love it when people try to sound smart, but they aren't so they fail. More delicious irony is when they are busy calling other people stupid. Prospective is an adjective. Even a school child wouldn't say "his small is good."