The 3.5 Assassin's Handbook discussion thread

[Pluto]

Hey everybody,

This is the discussion topic for the 3.5 Assassin's Handbook. If you have any suggestions for inclusion, or any bones to pick with the entries I included, please post them here.

Any feedback would be very welcome. 

[Elevevated Beat]

You can use the green arrows (Float Left and Float Right) next to the Font Face drop down box. The floating effect doesn't stack, so you only get one indent.
I'm not sure what the Preformatted Text button does, but that might be another possibility.

Float Right

Float Left

Edit: Nice Handbook, btw!

[phaedrusxy]

Wow, at first glance it looks excellent! If I have time to look it over more carefully, I'll try to give more detailed feedback, but no promises (time is a precious commodity).

Mentioning something about "IP Proofing" might be a decent idea, since you specifically said something about picking up immunities to "shore up" some of the assassin's weak spots. Rerolls, Contingencies, allies with Revenance + Revivify scrolls, and other things like these are also decent backup plans to have to cover your weakspots. There was a handbook on this at one time, but it was deleted (and I'm not sure how good it was, since I never read it before it was deleted...). There is a thread that discusses it here, but I will warn you it has a lot of nasty back and forth arguments. If you ignore that, you might get something useful out of it, though.

[Amechra]

Are you going to cover the really sexy spells Assassins get? A lot of their best spells (Insightful Flanker immediately jumps to mind, though you might want to mention that they need to dip to get the best Assassin-type spells (Unseen Seer to grab Vine/Grave/Ruin Strike or Hunter's Eye is win.))

Really, Death Attack isn't what you are taking Assassin for; you're taking Assassin so you can get access to the neat spell list.

[Pluto]

Are you going to cover the really sexy spells Assassins get? A lot of their best spells (Insightful Flanker immediately jumps to mind, though you might want to mention that they need to dip to get the best Assassin-type spells (Unseen Seer to grab Vine/Grave/Ruin Strike or Hunter's Eye is win.))

Really, Death Attack isn't what you are taking Assassin for; you're taking Assassin so you can get access to the neat spell list.

I'm not familiar with Insightful Flanker. Is that from Dragon?

I got Unseen Seer + Hunter's Eye. On dipping out a few levels for the X-strikes, I'm hesitant - they're dirt-cheap wands, and they don't benefit much from added CL. They're definitely in the Wand section (which is one of the areas that could probably use the most tinkering), but I don't think I'll push them harder.

Looking back, I don't think I mentioned Death Attack once without undercutting its cred as a combat tactic. Do you think I really need to grind that in harder? (And is that what this marquee function is for?  )

[Amechra]

If you really need the X-strikes, you can get them through Unseen Seer as well.

There is always Telling Blow+Hunter's Mercy through Unseen Seer; I do believe that let's you Death Attack anyone with a bow within your range, as long as they aren't crit immune...

[Jackinthegreen]

You might also want to list the Avenger class, which is the same as Assassin but can be Good since the class is based on service to the city, state, etc.

I'm not seeing Insightful Flanker anywhere, including Realmshelp and even Google.  Are you sure you have the name right Amechra?

[Pluto]

Wow, at first glance it looks excellent! If I have time to look it over more carefully, I'll try to give more detailed feedback, but no promises (time is a precious commodity).

Mentioning something about "IP Proofing" might be a decent idea, since you specifically said something about picking up immunities to "shore up" some of the assassin's weak spots.

Thanks. 

Digging around Google for that guide or other indices, that topic looks like it got a lot of flak. But I'll see what I can scrounge up.

You might also want to list the Avenger class, which is the same as Assassin but can be Good since the class is based on service to the city, state, etc.

I mentioned that in the variant Assassin section, but didn't go into much depth. I'm digging around for feats or PrCs that the Avenger has that the Assassin can't get otherwise, but I'm not coming up with much: So far Sacred Strike, Daggerspell Mage, Raptor Arrows, maybe Holy Weapons without UMD. I'll start book-diving when I have a chance, but any other ideas would be welcome.

[Amechra]

It's Insightful Feint. Sorry for messing that up.

It gives you a +10 on your next Feint attempt, and let's you Feint one step faster (so as a Free action once per round if you have Improved Feint; the spell takes up your Swift action for the round, so...).

It's a first level spell with a duration of 1 round.

[Piggy Knowles]

Very nice!  Just a few thoughts after reading over this...

• You mention changelings in your class section, recommending the changeling rogue sub levels if you take rogue, but changeling is not listed in your race section.  Considering that I think they're right up there with whisper gnome and human as the top possible assassin race, I would say they're worth inclusion.  (And yes, I consider human a better choice than strongheart halfling.  Small size is nice, but the reduced speed just isn't worth it, IMO.)
  
  
• Also, since you include some human sub-races but not others, azurin are probably worth a mention as well.  Losing the extra skill rank hurts, but an assassin with a dip into totemist or incarnate will almost certainly appreciate the extra essentia more.
  
  
• I might include Ultimate Magus in the class section.  As the assassin is a spontaneous Int-based class, it can make an interesting choice for the other side of a wizard/ultimate magus build.  If nothing else, it's an easy way to pick up a lot of free metamagic effects - persistent Hunter's Eye and Wraithstrike is easily worth the hammering you'll take to your BAB.
  
  
• I'd probably bump Maiming Strike up to blue.  While four die of SA for one point of Charisma damage seems low, an assassin with multiple attacks can easily completely disable many common enemies in a single round.  Worth noting that undead are NOT immune to all ability damage, only ability damage to the physical stats, so if you can SA undead, you can use Maiming Strike on them.  Considering that zombies and skeletons have a Charisma of 1, that's pretty much an auto-kill against an otherwise difficult target.
  
  Also, if you can eke out more attacks, it gets even more ridiculous.  Picture a daelkyr half-blood assassin who Alter Self's into a grell.  With 8d6 sneak damage funneled into Maiming Strike, you're talking about dealing a potential 22 points of Charisma damage with a single attack routine.  Toss in wraithstrike and that's enough to easily fell a great wyrm black dragon in a single round.
  
  (And, being fixed damage rather than variable, it multiplies with things like Battle Jump, valorous weapons, Spirited Charge, etc. - but that's not as easy to take advantage of for an assassin.)
  
  
• I think Spymaster is worth inclusion on the prestige class section.  A bunch of ways to beat divinations, Magic Aura at will (Darkstalker isn't worth much when you glow like a Christmas tree whenever someone casts the 0-level Detect Magic), martial weapon proficiency, some cool defensive abilities and it somewhat advances SA, plus excellent skills.  Even just a three level dip gives you a cover identity, Undetectable Alignment and Magic Aura at will, +1d6 sneak and big bonuses against scrying - although going all seven levels for Deep Cover certainly isn't a bad idea for the more socially inclined.
  
  
• A couple of others that I feel are worth inclusion on the soulmeld front - the Shedu Crown grants 100' telepathy, and opens up access to Mindsight.  The Enigma Helm is Nondetection + Will save booster + immunity to charms.   Both of these rely only on the Crown chakra bind, which can be picked up with just two levels in Incarnate or Open Least Chakra, and can do a lot for the low-level assassin.
  
  
• The Hellbreaker from Fiendish Codex II is another nice choice for prestige classes.  It progresses SA (albeit slowly), allows you to steal SLAs like a spellthief, stow away alongside enemies that try to teleport from you, and most importantly, grants a nice version of HiPS and a static field that impedes divination spells and suppresses telepathy right at level 1.  It is one of the only RAW ways to beat Mindsight.  (Widen Supernatural Ability helps with this, by the way, since it is of limited range.)  Three entry feats, including Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, so it's probably best as a dip for a Surprising Riposte build.
  
  
• One last prestige class and I'm done, I promise.  Alchemist Savant from MoE allows you to combine alchemical items with poisons, potions, etc, and lets you craft them much quicker.  You can qualify with assassin casting, then use this to create things like acid + contact or injury poison.  Now you can attack with a thrown vial, dealing SA damage and possibly death attack on your initial target, and also hit both your initial target and anyone within splash range with poison.  It also lets you create spellvials, which can contain any targeted spell and be delivered with a ranged touch attack.  So now any assassin spell that was a little lackluster because of touch range can instead by delivered as a ranged touch.
  
  Easy entry requirements for an assassin, too - third level spells and a single feat requirement (the Mark of Making is a super useful feat for anyone who likes to play with poison regardless), plus 8 ranks in craft (alchemy).  I'd take this over Black Dog almost any day.[/i]
  
  

That's all I've got right now - the handbook is great, by the way!

[Pluto]

Thanks for the reply.

I'll agree with most of that, with a couple quibbles:

I had considered Ultimate Magus while I was drafting, but decided against it because after accounting for the hoops it has to jump through to pick up Move Silently ranks and Hunter's Eye, UM ends up wedging Assassin into a very rigid build, and I'm not sure Assassin can justify the additional work involved, compared to a more traditional Beguiler or Sorcerer Magus - especially if Master Spellthief tricks are going to be thrown in. I could be persuaded, but I don't think it's particularly relevant to Assassin-building.

Regarding Alchemist Savant, I'm on the fence. The Least Dragonmark isn't the one that's useful for poisoners, so that's 2 feats burnt for entry. I'm going to need to comb through the Assassin spell list again to see what interacts with spellvial before saying anything either way.

[Garryl]

Stonedeath Assassin in RotW (page 124-126) deserves an honorable mention for its Stonedeath Strike ability. It's like Death Attack, but it petrifies instead of killing or paralyzing and gives gnomes and dwarves a -4 penalty on the save, although both the assassin and the target have to be touching a stone surface for the study rounds and the actual attack.

Divine Prankster from the same book (page 107-109) is also interesting to note, in that its Killing Joke ability is sort of like Death Attack as a Bardic Music ability.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

"per the Rules Compendium, but doesn't stack levels with Death Attack classes." Rules Quote? I went through all of RC looking for "Race", "racial", and "death" but found nothing of the sort. It seems to me that everything stacks but only some mention it, similar to sneak attack.

[Nanshork]

"per the Rules Compendium, but doesn't stack levels with Death Attack classes." Rules Quote? I went through all of RC looking for "Race", "racial", and "death" but found nothing of the sort. It seems to me that everything stacks but only some mention it, similar to sneak attack.

The writer of the handbook hasn't been on in two and a half years.....

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Okay well does anyone else believe that quote? I'm incredulous.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Went through realmshelps for any "Death Attack"
that also has stacking language (or similar).
Very few have that, usually with more specifics.
Most of them have the same wording as the
Assassin PrC as if nothing else would stack.
 

Monk Of The Long Death , in Players Guide To Faerun
If the monk of the long death also has the death attack ability from another class (such as assassin), levels of that class stack with his monk of the long death levels for the purpose of determining the save DC.

Imaskari Vengeance Taker , in Underdark
A vengeance taker with levels in the assassin prestige class may add her assassin and vengeance taker class levels together for the purpose of calculating the save DC for her vengeance taker death attack.

Thayan Slaver , in Unapproachable East
Enervating Attack: As the assassin death attack ability, except that Thayan slavers have only the option of paralyzing their victims. If a Thayan slaver has levels in the assassin prestige class, he may add his assassin and Thayan slaver class levels together for purposes of calculating the DC of his enervating attack. Slaver class levels do not add to the DC of the assassin's death attack.

Perfect Wight , in Epic ... though more of a feat add on type
Improved Legerdemain (Su): A perfect wight can perform the following class skills at a range of 30 feet: Disable Device, Open Lock, Pick Pocket, and Search. If desired, the perfect wight can take 10 on the check. Any object manipulated during the skill check must weigh 100 pounds or less. Alternatively, the perfect wight can use improved legerdemain to make one melee sneak attack against any creature within 30 feet. The perfect wight executes the sneak attack (or death attack, if applicable) as if attacking from a flanking position. If the attack is successful, the victim is dealt the appropriate sneak attack damage despite the fact that the perfect wight and his or her weapon do not physically cross the intervening distance. A perfect wight can use improved legerdemain once per day at 2nd level, plus one additional time per day every five levels thereafter.

... and ...
Black Flame Zealot , in Complete Divine
 If a black flame zealot has this class feature from another class (such as assassin), he may add black flame zealot class levels together with the class levels of such other classes to calculate the save DC of his death attack.

[linklord231]

"per the Rules Compendium, but doesn't stack levels with Death Attack classes." Rules Quote? I went through all of RC looking for "Race", "racial", and "death" but found nothing of the sort. It seems to me that everything stacks but only some mention it, similar to sneak attack.

I think you're reading it wrong.  "Per Rules Compendium" is referring to the bit about scaling via hit dice and Charisma (since it's an Extraordinary special ability, the DC is 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha rather than the flat 13 defined in Sandstorm), not about Death Attack not stacking. 

I think that part is based on the assumption that if it doesn't give a formula for how to stack something, then it doesn't stack.  If that's the case, then you'd have 2 separate Death Attacks that the opponent would have to save against separately as long as both applied. 

[kitep]

I second Linklord.  Here's the quote from the handbook

Marrulurk (Sand): Charisma-based DC that scales with any Hit Dice and Charisma per the Rules Compendium, but doesn't stack levels with Death Attack classes.

I'm pretty sure the "per the RC" applies to "Charisma-based DC that scales with any Hit Dice and Charisma" and not the stacking part.

I'd also like to point out that it says "scales with ANY hit dice" - so if you take a level of assassin, you get an assassin's HD, and the attack DC goes up.  Adding the assassin level in addition to the assassin HD would be doubling up.

(I'm not saying I necessary agree or don't agree with the handbook, but I think that's what it says)

Good luck!

[Pluto]

"per the Rules Compendium, but doesn't stack levels with Death Attack classes." Rules Quote? I went through all of RC looking for "Race", "racial", and "death" but found nothing of the sort. It seems to me that everything stacks but only some mention it, similar to sneak attack.

Yeah, what Linklord said - when I wrote the Rules Compendium thing, I was talking about the DC formula:

Sandstorm gives Death Attack a flat DC 13.
RC gives extraordinary ability DCs equal to 10+1/2 HD+Cha.
Sandstorm's specific implementation doesn't explicitly contradict the general RC rule, so the RC formula should hold true.

As far as DC stacking between Marrulurk and Death Attack classes, there's no listed formula or protocol, so I try to hold to the most conservative assumptions in online discussions, which in this case would be DC = max(10+Class Level+Int, 10+1/2 HD+Cha).

I'm not sure how they'd stack if they were supposed to - they don't have the same base stat and neither has language even referencing stacking - so I personally wouldn't incorporate HD and class levels into the same formula, but I don't think there's explicit language going one way or the other.