Author Topic: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege  (Read 68459 times)

Offline TravelLog

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Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« on: November 20, 2011, 08:57:08 PM »
On the Wizard's Board, there was a thread about trying to create character's capable of getting through Dis and defeating Dispater as detailed in the Dicefreaks Gates of Hell project. DO YOU DARE TO MAKE THE ATTEMPT!?

Gates of Hell.

The Original Challenge from the Wizard's Board (the very first attempt was on the Dicefreaks forum, but I don't have access to it)
A more recent challenge
Here is an example attempt

Here is the quote from the Wizard's board:
Quote
This is for questions, ideas comments and whatnot. You know the drill.

And to make things easier I reiterate rules here. If something is left unclear, feel free to ask, that is the purpose of the thread.

Your goal is to kill Dispater, Lord of the Second, and you must do it in Dis. You will start at the gates of Dis, right past Tiamat's lair, but you are allowed to do all precautions and preparations you want before the challenge begins. That is to say, you are allowed to craft items, device epic spells and whatnot, but when the challenge starts, you will find yourself to be standing at the gates.

You use are to use Dicefreaks' deity creation rules. They can be found from the 9th book of Gates of Hell. I suggest you to read them through. You have a pool of 18 divine ranks from which to draw and you can split them as you wish. It is allowed to have a single DvR 18 deity, two DvR 9 deities, etc.

You will use PC wealth appropriate to your level. Deities' HD caps at 70, normal mortals are limited to 40 HD, but creatures such as dragons and undead can go as high as 100 HD. You also have 5 level worth of LA at your disposal, it can be used for crafting as such if you don't want to use it. If you don't get something, then ask.

As to sources: you are allowed to use any WoTC material, though you must cite sources in your build

Aside from that, you are good to go, as long as you abide by the Dicefreaks statistics caps (to which Dispater and his minions are held as well). For the physical scores, this is a maximum of 70. For the mental scores, this is a maximum of 55. For levels, this can be found in the appendix.

Finally, I do have the right to use my nerfhammer. Pun-Pun, Omniscificer and their close relatives will find themselves utterly unable to take part into this challenge.

A more condensed version of the rules by my esteemed predecessor, Tshern:
Quote
To give a little run down, he is greatly amped and he lives within his own safe haven, the Iron Tower. The rules are relatively simple:
No theoretical builds like Pun-Pun.
All builds must be clarified by me.
You start at the gates of Dis, right past Tiamat's lair, but you are allowed to do all necessary preparations before the challenge starts. That includes casting buffs, creating epic spells and such.
You need to kill Dispater, incapacitating is not enough. He has Contingent true resurrection active and that needs to be taken care of as well.
You are subject to the following HD limitations (including class levels): Mortals 40HD, Outsiders/Deities 70HD, pretty much everything else 100HD. Ask for more details.
You are allowed to use a party of four members and you have a pool of 18 divine ranks to draw from.
Deity creation rules as per The Gates of Hell, Chapter 9. Download here.

Deities use their own wealth to equip their party members. No additional wealth given for extra challengers. On the issue of wealth, that was my bad, I linked TravelLog to the NPC wealth table. The usable wealth stands at 108 million gp with a maximum of one third spent on any individual item.

I will add a single addenda to the allowed sources (though the same was done originally, and I have substantially expanded the original allowed sources): You may NOT make use of any obviously broken tactics like infinite loops, infinite CL, etc. as well as prestige classes like Beholder Mage, Incantatrix, Planar Shepard.

Also, Disjunction does not destroy major artifacts.

Here are the list of answered questions as per the original thread:
(click to show/hide)

New rulings:
(click to show/hide)

Your Opponent: Dispater, His Iron Grace, Lord of the Second:
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:57:27 PM by TravelLog »
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Satori

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 09:08:49 PM »
Is there a reason Incarnum is banned? It's probably not at all useful for this challenge, but if someone wanted, say Planar Ward, I'm not sure why you wouldn't allow it.

Offline Bozwevial

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 09:12:03 PM »
Is there a reason Incarnum is banned? It's probably not at all useful for this challenge, but if someone wanted, say Planar Ward, I'm not sure why you wouldn't allow it.
I think it's because Tshern isn't familiar with it. Usually he'll allow things on a case-by-case basis, IIRC.
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Offline TravelLog

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2011, 09:18:28 PM »
For my version of this, Magic of Incarnum is allowed. Basically, all WoTC material is, though I have ban hammer privilege if it seems too broken. Also, if anyone is interested in helping me run actual challenges should people submit builds, I'd be thankful. Working with stuff at this level is tricky at best.

Edit: Also, Bozwevial, I responded to your comments about the Kensei in the thread. Thanks for notes.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 09:21:44 PM by TravelLog »
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2011, 12:57:26 PM »
This was already restarted on this board, but if you are willing to take the reign, please do. Perhaps three and a half years was enough for me. The sheer amount of notes for Dispater's preparations, tactics, items and spells I accumulated over that time was astonishing indeed.

Now I can even start revealing the strategies and tools my Dispater and his minions used to survive. Perhaps, perhaps...

TravelLog: If you have any questions, I am ready to answer. I can also help you go through character sheets and whatnot, assuming you are still looking for help in that department.

Is there a reason Incarnum is banned? It's probably not at all useful for this challenge, but if someone wanted, say Planar Ward, I'm not sure why you wouldn't allow it.
I think it's because Tshern isn't familiar with it. Usually he'll allow things on a case-by-case basis, IIRC.
This was the reasoning, yes. Same for Truenamers and whatnot.

A link to a thread started here. Not very useful, didn't have the time to port all the stuff over.

The BG subforum for the challenge. Perhaps a bit more useful.

By the way, none of those challenges is the original one. The first attempts were made at the Dicefreaks forum rather than Wizards of the Coast. A minor detail, but still.

Edit: Jesus, that quote in the first post sure took me for a nostalgia ride.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 01:00:34 PM by Tshern »
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Offline TravelLog

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2011, 03:06:32 PM »
Tshern! I had no idea you had ported it over here. Still, if you'd like, I'd be happy to take over for you, though I'd be glad to have your continued help on the matter, as you're indisputably an expert on it after all these years.
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2011, 03:15:02 PM »
Tshern! I had no idea you had ported it over here. Still, if you'd like, I'd be happy to take over for you, though I'd be glad to have your continued help on the matter, as you're indisputably an expert on it after all these years.
It was already buried a few pages back. Naturally I remembered that the boards boast a search engine, but only after I had gone back and dragged it to light manually. So far it hadn't attracted too much interest anyway and I feel the challengers may be more than happy to let another DM step in. I got rather irregular with the Siege after running it for so long.

As for help, I can definitely help read through the characters, epic spells, SDAs and whatever the prospective corpses come up with. Since you would still be the DM, I would point out things strictly concerning rules unless you want any opinions regarding the custom stuff. After all, it is the DM who decides what to let in and what to leave out of the game.

I have a question, too. My personal policy was not to device new epic spells for Dispater, but will you do the same? The problem, to me, was that since I was regulating the game, creating custom material would be a dubious strategy.
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Offline TravelLog

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2011, 03:24:20 PM »
I was thinking about that actually earlier and what I've come up with is this: I may once interest have begun create a small number of custom epic spells based on defeating the more expected threats, and maybe some unexpected ones (since Dispater is enormously paranoid). Beyond that initial number though, I won't be, simply because it would be unfair for prospective challengers to have an opponent that is universally prepared for everything.

So in short, maybe a couple epic spells (certainly no more than 3 or so), but no more after build submissions start to come in.

That said, if people are opposed to it for the challenge, then I naturally will not do so.  :)

As for help, that would be great, and I may indeed consult you on custom stuff now and again, if that's alright.
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 03:32:14 PM »
Gave this thread a place of honour in my signature.

Also, assuming challengers start pouring in, I would suggest you ask someone to monitor you during the game itself. I personally employed two different people for that at various times. Helps to keep you accountable and looks honest as well.
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Offline TravelLog

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2011, 03:41:01 PM »
Sounds like a good idea. Would you be willing to be one of those people? Or have recommendations for who I might ask to do so?
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2011, 03:58:24 PM »
Sounds like a good idea. Would you be willing to be one of those people? Or have recommendations for who I might ask to do so?
I'll consider it. I might be willing to roll a character of my own, so that might not be very prudent. My participation is tentative though, but there is no hurry yet, no-one has a challenger posted yet.
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Offline TravelLog

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2011, 04:00:25 PM »
Of course. If there's anyone else you'd recommend, let me know. And yeah, there is certainly no hurry as of yet.
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2011, 04:50:23 PM »
Of course. If there's anyone else you'd recommend, let me know. And yeah, there is certainly no hurry as of yet.
I know PhaedrusXY did splendid job, but I doubt he has the time. The other gentleman I used isn't on these boards and I haven't talked to him for a few months. I suppose someone might just volunteer, it isn't exactly a hard job to do.

Somehow being relieved of duty makes me want to tell the tricks I used to kill challengers, thus making this harder for the new DM. However, as the old Lord of Dis, I want to keep the veil of mystery.
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Offline TravelLog

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2011, 05:55:32 PM »
Let me know some of your personal favorites.
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2011, 06:32:56 PM »
That would be telling.
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Offline TravelLog

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2011, 06:34:40 PM »
Well, I suppose half the fun is experimenting. Very well then.
Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be.
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2011, 07:18:27 PM »
Well, I suppose half the fun is experimenting. Very well then.
Very true. Spent a lot of time wondering how different tricks work in practice and running scenarios. It was actually fun at times.
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Offline DrHorrible

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2011, 01:03:18 PM »
Cool, I can't wait to see someone give it a try.
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2011, 01:25:47 PM »
Cool, I can't wait to see someone give it a try.
I am considering it. The first one would probably have the best chance, DMs tend to learn quick and here they have to.
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Offline TravelLog

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Re: Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2011, 01:33:12 PM »
Cool, I can't wait to see someone give it a try.
I am considering it. The first one would probably have the best chance, DMs tend to learn quick and here they have to.

Wonderful. The person who I can count on to know most, if not all the tricks I might pull early on as DM for this wants to be the first challenger.

Well I suppose if he'd prefer to avoid a real challenge by taking me on while I'm learning the ropes, then who am I to deny him?
  :rolleyes


In all seriousness though, whenever you'd like to make the challenge, it'll be an honor to test your skills.
Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be.
--Miguel de Cervantes