Author Topic: Ammunition Rules  (Read 7287 times)

Offline Captnq

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Ammunition Rules
« on: February 02, 2013, 12:23:29 AM »
I’d like some feedback on the proposed entry about ammunition in my Weapon Handbook

Ammunition
Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons, below), and what happens to them after they are thrown. Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action. A single unit of ammunition costs an additional 6 gp if it is crafted as masterwork. Masterwork ammunition is damaged (effectively destroyed) when used. The enhancement bonus of masterwork ammunition does not stack with any enhancement bonus of the projectile weapon firing it.

Editor: And that’s it. The complete and total rules about ammunition as written in the text. Now, some of you might be thinking, what else do we need? Well, for starters, what are the qualities of ammunition? Is ammunition a weapon, or something else? Does it have a size? What happens when I use a tiny arrow in a huge longbow? These questions might seem obvious, or unimportant, but alas, WotC has very little RAW on the nature of ammunition. But I will address these issues, each in turn, and explain the implications of said issues.

Editor (Ammunition is not a Weapon): WotC never comes right out and says that Ammunition is or is not a weapon. In some aspects, it could be considered a “charge” for a weapon, not a weapon in and of itself. On the other hand, every bolt can be wielded as an improvised weapon, which would indicate that it is a weapon. There are two problems with this. One, improvised weapons have made up values that are the best guess of a DM. Even if the player’s guide suggests what those improvised values should be, the values are still improvised, and therefore invalid as proof that ammunition is a weapon.
If one chooses to ignore this and state that improvised values are valid, then we have the problem that sling stones cannot be used as improvised weapons. Arrows can, bolts can, but bullets cannot, because WotC has not given them any values as improvised weapons.. You might say, “Well, then I’ll make some values up.” But if you are stating that the WotC suggested values for Arrows and Bolts are valid proof they are weapons, then why did they not suggest improvised weapon values for all forms of ammunition? Either improvised weapon values are official, in which case bullets are not weapons, (Which raises the question why are some forms of ammunition weapons, and others not?) or they are made up values, in which case a sling bullet could be used as an improvised weapon, and all improvised weapon values are subject to the whims of the DM. Since I could make a tiny creature, hand him a sling stone, and ask him to bash another tiny creature over the head with it, I believe it is quite clear that sling stones can be used as improvised weapons. Therefore the values are “improvised” and not valid as proof that ammunition is considered a weapon. To clear this up, we need to go to the Arms and Equipment Guide.
Quote from: Arms and Equipment Guide, pg 5
Ammunition for ranged weapons requires no particular proficiency to use, although the weapons that propel the ammunition (usually bows) do. The Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat isn’t required to use any item in the Ammunition category.
While A&EG is 3.0, I can find no rules that contradict this paragraph in any 3.5 document. We can determine from it that ammunition is a separate category from weapons. The fact that that the ammunition requires no weapon proficiency to use is additional proof that it is not a weapon. When you take a weapon proficiency in a projectile weapon, then the ability to use the ammunition for that weapon is included in the proficiency, be that simple, martial, or exotic weapon.

Editor (Ammunition has a size): At first glance, the fact that ammunition’s values as an improvised weapon are not valid as proof for anything outside of it’s use as a melee weapon, would indicate that ammunition does not have a size. On the weapon chart on page 117 of the Player’s Guide, footnote number one states: Weight figures are for Medium weapons. A Small weapon weighs half as much, and a Large weapon weighs twice as much. Since ammunition appears on the chart, and has a weight, one might assume it has a size as well. However, since we have just proven that ammunition is not a weapon, we cannot apply footnote #1 to ammunition. Footnote #1 only applies to weapons, after all. Again, we have to go elsewhere to find proof that ammunition has a size. In this case, the Expanded Psionics Handbook
Quote from: Expanded Psionics Handbook, pg 81 (Psionic Power: Bolt)
You create 2d4 ectoplasmic crossbow bolts, arrows, or sling bullets, appropriate to your size.
Alas, this is the only passage I can find anywhere that specifically states that Bolts, Arrows, and Sling Bullets have a size. In this case, the size is the same size of the user of the psionic power. While not in an official rule section regarding equipment or combat, it is valid. This, combined with a number of other circumstantial sources, clearly indicates that both RAW and RAI give ammunition size. The fact that ammunition has size has many implications.

Editor (Projectile Weapons): Before we address over/under-sized ammunition, we must briefly address projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons are two-handed, a few select are one handed. If a projectile is two handed, you cannot wield a larger size version of that weapon. You can wield smaller versions, down two more sizes. When a projectile weapon shrinks, it goes from two-handed, to one-handed, to light. This has no effect on how many hands you actually use, as stated under the weapon descriptions, you must use two hands regardless of size. When the weapon shrinks one more size, you go to less then a light weapon, and it is simply too small for you to use.
 A one-handed projectile weapon can be increased in size to become a two-handed projectile weapon, with all the benefits and penalties of an oversized weapon. If the weapon is reduced in size, it becomes effectively a light weapon, and thus you no longer have the benefit of using two hands to modify damage.

Editor (Oversized/Undersized Ammunition): So what happens when you try to fire a large arrow with a medium long bow? There are no rules anywhere on what happens if you use mismatched ammo/weapon combos. We can only read into the examples given. The examples that stand out are siege weapons and the bow bow. It appears that when you use ammunition that is larger then the size that is equal to yours, that there is a -2 penalty, and the length of time it takes to fire increases. A standard action becomes a full-round, and every increase in size adds another full-round. In heroes of Battle, a light ballista takes two-full rounds to load. The heavy ballista, which is two size classes larger, takes four rounds to load. This comes up in the DMG regarding catapults. It also appears to show up in the Bone Bow, from Frostburn..
Now, I must admit, this is an interpretation of how the weapon reads. It appears that the weapon is actually a Martial Ranged Weapon, just like a longbow, but that you can take an exotic weapon proficiency to use large ammunition from it. This has precedent in other weapons like the bastard sword. You can wield a bastard sword in two-hands as a martial weapon, but in one hand as an exotic weapon. The Bone Bow appears to be the same way. So what conclusions can we draw?
A RAI reading of the rules implies that you simply cannot use any size ammo except that which matches with the size of the weapon firing said ammunition. However, it only implies this. I cannot find any entry that indicates there is ANY penalty to using the wrong sized ammo in any weapon. It certainly would appear that way, but I cannot say this is RAW. They gave ammunition a size, so one can assume that it’s used for something. So the safe answer is, only matching size ammunition/weapons can be used together.
I believe that this is not the case. After reading many different examples of how medium size creatures use oversized projectile weapons, I believe that the penalties to hit are based on the size of the weapon, but the additional time to fire is based on the size of the ammunition. That said, and drawing upon the example of the Bone Bow, I believe that any projectile weapon has a little bit of, wiggle room. Here is why:
Quote from: Frostburn, pg 75 (Bone Bow)
A character may use a bone bow as a martial weapon, but doing so imparts a –4 penalty on attack rolls, and firing an arrow from the bow requires a full round action.
This is the same penalty you take if you use a weapon you don’t have a proficiency for, with an additional penalty of it taking a full round action to fire. Thus, I conclude that you can use oversize ammunition. The firing time increases to a full-round to fire. If increasing the size would increase this to over a full-round, then you cannot use that ammunition, unless you have a weapon that specifically states that you can. You cannot increase the size more then one more then the size of the weapon. The effect is to increase the damage by one size class.
A DM could allow someone to take an exotic weapon feat to allow him to use oversized ammunition on a regular basis. It is recommended that you force him to take the weapon proficiency first, then he can take the exotic version (Weapon X with Oversized Ammunition.) Then he could fire it normally and would not take a -4 penalty. If the player then decides to fire ammunition that is one size beyond that, I suppose you could do that, but then it would regain the -4 to hit and the one full round to fire.
If you are forced to use ammunition that is too small, you can only use one size class smaller. The damage decreases one size class. You take a -4 penalty to hit, and it takes a full round action to fire. You cannot use ammunition more then one size class smaller then the weapon. I suppose it is possible to take an exotic weapon proficiency in firing ammunition that is too small for your weapon, but only the most insane player would waste a feat doing it. Simply hit the player in the head with a book and tell him to start taking the game seriously.

Thoughts?
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Ammunition Rules
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 02:17:02 PM »
 :o ... Purple Eyes , via the Spice from the movie Dune ?!

(cheeky) Yeah so that recent ruleofcool thread ...
http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,860.0.html

We don't really want to nerf JaronK's shuriken trick.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Ammunition Rules
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 02:25:51 PM »
We don't really want to nerf JaronK's shuriken trick.

Shuriken are thrown weapons that are sometimes treated as ammunition.  Nothing in the above post would negatively impact his trick.

Edit:
Captnq, I think you should make it clear that there is no RAW answer for what to do about mismatched ammunition/launcher size.  As it stands, you go out of your way to point out that RAI might be that you simply can't do it, but then list a bunch of single-case precedents and circumstantial evidence as to why you think that reading is wrong.  I think it would be better if you just listed the reasoning behind both opinions, and then made a note to the effect of "but neither of these can be definitively proven to be RAW."

Also, in the section on Oversized/Undersized Ammunition, you said "The examples that stand out are siege weapons and the bow bow."  I think you meant bone bow. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 02:33:16 PM by linklord231 »
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Ammunition Rules
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 02:32:57 PM »
So, one thought I'm still trying to figure out...

the Seige weapon rules and rules from DM's guide regarding ballista, as well as a few others seems to indicate that every size distance of the ammunition from your current one adds one full-round to fire.

So, a tiny bow would be a -4 to use because of the tiny bow.
Tiny ammunition is supposed to work with a tiny bow, so no -4 non-weapon proficiency.
However, tiny ammunition is 2 steps removed from a medium creature, so would it be 2 full rounds to fire?

After all, a light ballista is 2 rounds to fire, add two size classes to a heavy ballista and it is 4 rounds to fire. Same thing with catapults.

See where I'm going?
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Ammunition Rules
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 12:20:43 AM »
But I thought you didn't want to use siege weapon rules for normal weapons?

And at least on the SRD, they only mention a -2 penalty/size category discrepancy, nothing about increased action time.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Ammunition Rules
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 12:42:55 AM »
But I thought you didn't want to use siege weapon rules for normal weapons?

And at least on the SRD, they only mention a -2 penalty/size category discrepancy, nothing about increased action time.

Sort of...

There are two sets of ballista. Ballista the seige weapons, and Ballista, the oversized heavy crossbow rules. The oversized heavy crossbow was replaced by heroes of battle's siege rules. But just because the old version is replaced, that doesn't mean we can't use it as a way to extrapolate the RAI.

Like I said, I believe that the -2 penalty is for the size of the weapon. But when ballista were oversized crossbows, every increase in size class added one full round action. My theory is, the increase in ammo size is what increased The time needed to fire.

The penalty to fire and the extra damage is built into the weapon itself, but the time to fire is based on the size of the ammo, At least that's my theory. Trying to pin down examples.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Ammunition Rules
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 01:29:52 AM »
But its replaced in a newer source... So it doesn't matter anymore.
Otherwise we might as well use weapon rules from 2e, 1e, or even 4e for your 3.x handbook.

But you want help with interpretation of the CURRENT rules for your ammo/weapon handbook... So how about please discussing those, instead of the "what if's of outdated rules" ?


Since the ballista is a siege weapon, it doesn't follow some of the standard weapon rules. That's why its listed separately from normal weapons in its own section. Plus high wind speeds affect them vastly differently. Many of the rules they follow are similar. They deal damage, require ammo, etc.
There's probably more, but I'm afb.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Ammunition Rules
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2013, 12:34:24 AM »
But its replaced in a newer source... So it doesn't matter anymore.

Maybe.

Look, They made the original ballista as oversized heavy crossbows (I'm just gonna call it a OHC Ballista from now on). Just because they replaced them with siege ballista doesn't mean the math to make the OHC Ballista isn't also valid.

For example, lets say they made catapults just like oversized slings. They figure out rules for really big slings. Later, they replace catapults as really big slings with a new class of weapon entirely.

Would the math for the original oversized slings be wrong? Techically, they are both still valid, because while the name is the same, they are both different weapons entirely. Like a dagger is a melee weapon with range incriments, but a throwing dagger is a ranged weapon. Both have almost identical stats, but the weapon clasification drastically affects what weapon special abilities you can put on them.

How they classify siege weapons has changed, but the rules for calculating effects didn't. They just decided that siege weapons need a seperate classification. The fundimental rules for the original oversized projectile weapon still apply. In fact, the full-round delay is one thing that carried over from OHC ballistas to Siege ballistas. There is definately a pattern here.

I mean, technically, the OHC ballista is still a valid weapon, but not as static defense. It would be valid as a weapon for a huge or greater sized humanoid. Again, Not comfortable with it. I have not had as much time to research this as I wanted. What I need is some sort of confirmation. What I have is a coincidence. I need something like rules on an oversized sling or an example in a module, or something. This is mostly conjecture at this point.

Or, to counterpoint, I need some example of an oversized projectile that has no delay in firing to disprove what I'm talking about. Bone Bow points towards a delay, but it's implied, not clearly spelled out. OHC ballista point to a delay, but has been replaced, so in and of itself, it's not a valid proof. Siege weapons point to a delay, but being a seperate classification of weapons, I cannot apply rules for them to rules for hand held Projectile Weapons.

I'm going to have to take this back to formula. I'm just going to have to read every book again from the beginning until an answer jumps out at me. This could take a few days.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Ammunition Rules
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2013, 09:47:41 PM »
Crap.

Quote from: Enlarge Person Spell
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them.

So, a thrown weapon does damage based on it's size, but the size of the projectile has no effect on damage done by a weapon at all.

Well, that puts a big hole in my ammunition theory. Any one have any thoughts?
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Ammunition Rules
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2013, 09:53:30 PM »
But that also implies ammo has size, but not its own projectile damage. Which is good for several of the rest of us :P
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