Min/Max Boards

Gaming Discussion => D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder => You Break it You Buy it => Topic started by: Bastian on January 09, 2012, 10:06:39 AM

Title: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 09, 2012, 10:06:39 AM
Work in Progress: Help Appreciated

As the title says I'm trying to create a list of Pun-Pun's infinities (and nigh-infinities) and some of its more extreme abilities. For those who don't know what Pun-Pun is see here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.?pg=1).

(click to show/hide)

Truly Infinite
Quote
Attack Rolls and Saves: Omniscificer Trick

Ability Scores: Omniscificer Trick + Pain Mastery + Bellflower Tattoo + Alter Reality to make it permanent

Skill Ranks: Void Disciple's Moment of Clarity(Su) + Alter Reality + infinite ability scores

Damage: the Factotum's Cunning Insight(Ex) + an infinite Intelligence modifier + nigh-infinite Inspiration points (without nigh-infinite Inspiration points, it can't be used continuously but it is sitll possible to use)

Untyped damage that bypasses all forms of immunity or resistance (unless the enemy is a tanar'ri): the Jovoc's Aura of Retribution (Su) + Delay Death made permanent by Alter Reality + another method to deal infinite damage. Whenever Pun-Pun wants to use this trick It simply needs to suppress Its regeneration on whichever body It wants to use then deal an infinite amount of damage to that body. Alternatively It could have two bodies next to each other that both have Aura of Retribution so they both take and cause an infinite amount of damage continuously (and after the loop starts they both can have Regeneration up). Any body that Pun-Pun does not wish to take part in this loop simply needs to either not have Aura of Retribution or needs to count as a tanar'ri.

Attack Bonus, Initiative, Turn Undead, Hit Points, Spell slots, Power Points: Infinite ability scores

Followers: Epic Leadership + Infinite Charisma.  Note that It has an infinite number of followers of each level up to and including 20th (so an infinite number of 1st level followers, an infinite number of 2nd level followers, and so on).

AC: Infinite ability scores + Battlesense divine salient ability + Fist of the Forest's AC Bonus(Ex) (for con)+ Factotum's Improved Cunning Defense(Ex) (for Int) + etc.

Electricity Damage: the Stormsinger's Thunderclap + infinite performance ranks

Area illuminated: the Epic Sword Dancer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030902a)'s Silverhair Armor (Su) + Pun-Pun's infinite charisma modifier

True Seeing distance (plus distance of awareness of magic and magical abilities, see feat description): Paragon Visionary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) epic feat + infinite spot ranks

Number of objects Pun-Pun's phylactery is made of: the epic spell Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery + one of Pun-Pun's infinite mental score modifiers

Number of rounds Pun-Pun can travel into the future: Zerth Cenobite's Timeless Step(Ps) + an infinite wisdom modifier. Note that Pun-Pun can choose to travel a finite number of rounds into the future if It so chooses to.

Number of hit points It can heal in a day: Palidan's Lay on Hands(Su)

Gold: a week of work plus infinite profession ranks

Number of creatures that can be hit with a single attack: a bite attack + infinite speed + Dalmosh's Feeding Frenzy (Ex).

Infinite Knowledge: infinite skill ranks (specifically knowledge, spot, and listen) + infinite mental scores + NI divine ranks + bardic knowledge + Draconic Knowledge + Lore + Portfolio sense divine quality + many divine salient abilities including True Knowledge, Power Of Truth, Know Secrets, Know Death, Divine Recall. Note that all that is really required is infinite knowledge checks since knowledge checks are a measure of how much you know and thus infinite knowledge checks means infinite knowledge. Note 2, this is not the same as omniscience since infinite knowledge does not necessarily mean all knowledge since there is an infinite amount of space and thus knowledge as well and infinity minus infinity in undefined which means even with an infinite amount of knowledge there still could be an infinite amount of things you don't know.

(Effective) Caster Levels: Sanctified One (of Wee Jas)'s Sanctified Spell(Ex) + infinite intelligence score + Alter Reality

Manifester level when manifesting powers from the eight disciplines: infinite caster level + the Psiotheurgist feat taken 8 times

Number of Bodies: Body Outside Body spell + Alter Reality + infinite caster level + a piercing weapon  + Ochre Jelly's Split(Ex) + infinite hit points + Hivemind + Living Wall's Amalgam(Ex) (from Dr343) + Dalmosh's Swallow Whole (Ex). All of this results in a truly infinite number of nigh-infinitely large Pun-Puns that all have one mind and can count as one or multiple people depending on which is more advantageous at the time (though only for specific things). Dalmosh's swallow whole ability allows the bodies to move freely from each other as long as one body is in the Gullet demiplane because the Dalmosh's ability automatically means that all bodies have a portal in their stomach that leads there and thus they can be in a non-Euclidean line.
(click to show/hide)

Amount of (effective) Essentia invested in any ability that requires it: Psycarnum Infusion feat + Incandescent Champion's Incarnum Overload(Ex) + Alter Reality

Reach: infinite effective essential invested in Umbral Disciple's Kiss of the Shadows(Su)

Spell  Resistance: infinite effective essential invested in the Dread Carapace soul meld (bound to heart slot)

Fast Healing: infinite effective essential invested in the Soulspark's Incarnum Shroud(Su), specifically the healing sub-ability

Telepathy and Mindsight:  infinite effective essential invested in the Soulspeaker Circlet soulmeld bound to the throat + the Mindsight feat

Damage Reduction: infinite effective essential invested in the Midnight Construct's Essentia Modifications(Su)

All speeds: infinite effective essential invested in the necrocarnum zombie's Incarnum Speed ability

HD for the purposes of the turn undead ability: infinite bodies(each with nigh-infinite HD) + Living Wall's Amalgam(Ex)

Miss chance of attacks made against Pun-Pun:  infinite effective essential invested in Umbral Disciple's Embrace of Shadow(Su) + Alter Reality
Nigh-Infinite
Quote
XP and thus Levels: The Magister template's Arcane Generosity (Su) + using the Divine Creation salient ability to create magic items

HD: Energy Charge (the opposite of energy drain) + Alter Reality to make it permenant and/or the HD resulting from Nigh-Infinite Levels. Note: The reason HD is listed separately is that Energy Charge is a much faster way of gaining HD than the XP method.

Essentia Capacity: Based on HD

Divine Ranks: NutPuns!

Size (of each body): Brown Mold's 'double in size near fire ability' + a continuous fire

Readied Undefined Standard Actions (that can be used as Move Actions): Dominant Ideal ACF set to Time Mantle with Substitute Powers ACF to add Synchronicity to the Time Mantle + Infinite Power points + Linked Power allows for nigh-infinite castings of Synchronicity linked to Synchronicity (aka Garryl's Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy)

Swift Actions: the Ruby Knight Vindicator's Divine Impetus ability + infinite uses of turn undead

Full-Round Actions: Greater Celerity (either via an at-will Sp or Pun-Pun's infinite spell slots) + immunity to daze from Favor of the Martyr made permanent by Alter Reality + Nigh-infinite swift actions + when it is not Pun-Pun's turn using Alter Reality to duplicate Greater Celerity + nigh-infinite undefined readied standard actions. Note that during your turn, immediate actions can be taken as many times as you have swift actions but when it is not your turn you can only take one immediate action. Thus, Alter Reality (which can duplicate any 9th level spell or lower using a standard action) must be used to duplicate the effects of Greater Celerity when it is not your turn.

Area effected by area attacks: Titanic Creature template's Area Attacks(Ex) applied a nigh infinite number of time at a point when Pun-Pun is between Fine and Medium in size (Fine is optimal)

Inspiration points: nigh-infinite Fonts of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606)

Creatures Pun-Pun can control directly: Control Creatures divine salient ability + infinite results on spot checks + an infinite charisma modifier + NI divine ranks

Dark Crafting XP: infinite Knowledge (religion) check result + a sacrifice (per the BoVD's rules on sacrificing). Note this can be set to any finite amount.

Ridiculous Abilities
Quote
the Sarukh's Manipulate Form(Ex): the most ridiculous of all Pun-Pun's ability and the whole basis of Pun-Pun.

Ability to restart time arbitrarily far in the past: Teleport Through Time spell+ a minion coated in quintessence who when taken out uses Forced Dream

Ability to travel through time without having to kill your past self: Teleport Through Time spell + Living Wall's Amalgam(Ex) + either a minion with Manipulate Form or a copy of Pun-Pun. All that needs to be done is have the copy/minion go back in time to give Pun-Pun Amalgam(Ex) when they were conceived and thus when Pun-Pun goes back in time they will not have to kill their original self because they will count as part of a conglomerate person.

Ability to suppress damage reduction, fast healing, immunities, miss chance (including from incorporeality), regeneration, resistance to energy, spell resistance, and turn resistance: a nigh-infinite number of the 3.5 epic destiny Blade of Ragnarok's Destiny Strike(Su)

Immune to attacks that might in anyway hinder It: The Aleax's Singular Enemy(Ex) with the "intended victim" set to one of Pun-Pun's other bodies.
(click to show/hide)

Immune to being killed: the Tarrasque's Regeneration(Ex) + the Pale Master's Tough as Bone(Ex) (note that regen needs to be suppressed anytime Pun-Pun wishes to benefit in anyway from taking damage) + Delay Death made permanent by Alter Reality (the main benefit of this is that it can't be suppressed since it isn't actually an immunity)

Won't stay dead if killed: Illurien's Rejuvination(Su) + the Ghost's Rejuvenation(Su) + the 3.5 epic destiny Eternal Hero's Continual Resurrection ability + the lich's phylactory made into an infinite number of objects by the epic spell Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery and one of Pun-Pun's infinite mental score modifiers + various crafted contingency spells + Rejuvenation divine salient ability + Zargon's Horn(Ex) + the Temporal Drake (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20031122a)'s Recurrence (Ex) (so that if the contingency spells fail, there will always be another Pun-Pun there to rez the first immediately instead of having to wait like the other abilities).  Encore(Ex) also provides a foolproof way to return from since it makes so the only way to beat Pun-pun would be to roll higher that it on three knowledge or perform checks or to fulfill Pun-pun's "last wishes", however it has the down side of making it "fueled by anger and bitterness" so it should likely only be used as a last resort and only on a powerless body.

Mortals die, no save, no way to block it: Divine Splendor divine salient ability

Ability to end any spell, effect, or condition (with a duration of one round or longer) currently affecting It: Iron Heart Surge

Can automatically erase all knowledge of Its existence from the world whenever It wants to and Diviniation spells don't work on it (and it can sense any attempts to use them): give Itself Cloak of Mystery (Su) every time It wishes to erase any knowledge gained about It since It lasted did it + optionally kill Vecna (who retains knowledge of Its existence)

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Attack Forms that Empower Pun-Pun Instead of Hurting It
Slashing, Piercing, and Electricity damage: causes Pun-Pun to multiply do to Ochre Jelly's Split ability

Negative energy: heals Pun-Pun do to the Gravewyrm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20040109a)'s Negative Energy Affinity (Ex)

(click to show/hide)


Side note: Pun-pun can now have abilities from any edition of DnD because of this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8818.msg297522#msg297522) poorly worded official statement. Note that to get many abilities from other additions, Pun-pun needs to use fusion shenanigans since they aren't necessarily typed like 3.5 and 3.0 abilities.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on January 10, 2012, 12:00:54 PM
Font of Power + Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy (see the psionic tricks handbook) = as many Synchronicity-readied actions (usable as plain old standard actions as needed) as you want (not sure if it's NI or truly infinite). Infinite ability scores + Turn/rebuke undead + Divine Impetus gives you as many swift actions as you want, too.

Technically, d2 Crusader is infinite damage, but it's still only a single attack.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 10, 2012, 02:06:12 PM
Font of Power + Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy (see the psionic tricks handbook) = as many Synchronicity-readied actions (usable as plain old standard actions as needed) as you want (not sure if it's NI or truly infinite). Infinite ability scores + Turn/rebuke undead + Divine Impetus gives you as many swift actions as you want, too.

Technically, d2 Crusader is infinite damage, but it's still only a single attack.
Casual Disconcern for the Action Econeomy is nigh-infinite, a finite amount times a finite amount will never equal an infinite amount (in other words an action with a finite result, done a finite number of times will never produce an infinite result).

Also, added.

Edit: Clarified what I was talking about in the first bit so no one reading later will be confused.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on January 16, 2012, 06:55:50 PM
It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.

... Size and Number of Bodies: Brown Mold's 'double in size near fire ability' + a continuous fire + Ochre Jelly's Split(Ex) + Continuous electrical damage + NI hit points + Hivemind + Living Wall's Amalgam(?) (from Dr343) resulting in a nigh-infinite number of nigh-infinitely large Pun-Puns that all have one mind and can count as one or multiple people depending on which is more advantageous at the time ...
Oh that's just sneaky  :tongue
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on January 24, 2012, 06:06:38 AM
Immunities are important.
Aleax's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) are probably the best bet, do to their Singular Enemy.
Quote
Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.
Unfortunately that means that one thing exists which can hurt Pun-Pun, which will be promptly destroyed but still, unless the enemy can already be totally non-existent in some manner.

And sorry to ask, but could I receive a link to the Omnificer Trick?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 24, 2012, 10:19:19 AM
Immunities are important.
Aleax's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) are probably the best bet, do to their Singular Enemy.
Quote
Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.
Unfortunately that means that one thing exists which can hurt Pun-Pun, which will be promptly destroyed but still, unless the enemy can already be totally non-existent in some manner.

And sorry to ask, but could I receive a link to the Omnificer Trick?
Here. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer)

As for Singular Enemy that "victim" can be another one of Pun-Pun's bodies since Amalgam allows allows them to count as multiple people if it is more advantageous.

I completely forgot about that Singular Enemy, thanks.

Edit: Whoops, hadn't realized I had spelled it wrong. It was a good thing you had me look it up.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Kremti on January 24, 2012, 11:49:01 AM
As for Singular Enemy that "victim" can be another one of Pun-Pun's bodies since Amalgam allows allows them to count as multiple people if it is more advantageous.

I completely forgot about that Singular Enemy, thanks.

Edit: Whoops, hadn't realized I had spelled it wrong. It was a good thing you had me look it up.
I think I'd call that "body" "Mr Pink" and have him complain about it.

-K
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on January 24, 2012, 12:02:07 PM
For the AC, it's also infinite because he can add con, wis, cha, and int to AC, and possibly str (monk, SS, Fist of the Forest for con, paladin (with Serenity or not determines wis/cha, there's an AFC that changes the saves to AC), ghost's deflection, Swashbuckler/Factotum, probably more).  So even if dex is denied somehow, still gets infinite AC.

Also, since he has a truely infinite number of turn attempts, doesn't he have a true infinite number of swift actions?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on January 24, 2012, 02:16:41 PM
Doesn't infinite ability scores also mean infinite spell slots?
And of course nigh-infinite levels of spells slots, due to the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity and the nigh-infinite HD
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 24, 2012, 09:19:56 PM
For the AC, it's also infinite because he can add con, wis, cha, and int to AC, and possibly str (monk, SS, Fist of the Forest for con, paladin (with Serenity or not determines wis/cha, there's an AFC that changes the saves to AC), ghost's deflection, Swashbuckler/Factotum, probably more).  So even if dex is denied somehow, still gets infinite AC.

Also, since he has a truely infinite number of turn attempts, doesn't he have a true infinite number of swift actions?
It is not an infinite number of swift actions because the conversion is not automatic, it needs conscious effort. As a result it can never be infinite since it is the finite result of an action done a finite number of time. To put it another way, the result will always be countable and infinity is not countable.

As for the rest, in the process of adding (just need to find exact names). Thank you.

Doesn't infinite ability scores also mean infinite spell slots?
And of course nigh-infinite levels of spells slots, due to the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity and the nigh-infinite HD
Added. Thanks as well.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on January 24, 2012, 09:38:56 PM
I would also add in the Zodar immunities along with the Singular Enemy. Just in case.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 24, 2012, 10:30:21 PM
I would also add in the Zodar immunities along with the Singular Enemy. Just in case.
I added a note about it. The only problem with the Zodar's Invulnerability(Ex) is that it also makes you immune to attacks that might help you (as I explained in the note). Thanks for your help.

Edit: Added a credits section
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on January 25, 2012, 02:46:51 PM
For the AC, it's also infinite because he can add con, wis, cha, and int to AC, and possibly str (monk, SS, Fist of the Forest for con, paladin (with Serenity or not determines wis/cha, there's an AFC that changes the saves to AC), ghost's deflection, Swashbuckler/Factotum, probably more).  So even if dex is denied somehow, still gets infinite AC.

Also, since he has a truely infinite number of turn attempts, doesn't he have a true infinite number of swift actions?
It is not an infinite number of swift actions because the conversion is not automatic, it needs conscious effort. As a result it can never be infinite since it is the finite result of an action done a finite number of time. To put it another way, the result will always be countable and infinity is not countable.

That depends on how the process of activating the ability is resolved. If you can, for instance, spend half of your (infinite) turn attempts on the ability, then you would have an infinite number of actions. I'm AFB at the moment, but I think that the wording of the ability was more of a 1:1 thing instead of an x:x, thus requiring it to be countable.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on January 25, 2012, 03:15:58 PM
I was under the impression that Pun-pun used Singular Enemy, Zodar Invulnerability, the Tarasque Regeneration, and Alter Reality - permanenced Favor of the Martyr in concert for absolute immunity to everything.

Also, for actions: Chronotyryn; Sharn; Choker; and Garryl's Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy reinforced with an Affinity Field (due to the copy-puns). But it can never hit true infinite, the number of actions you can take is always going to be a known factor, no matter how insanely many there may be.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on January 25, 2012, 03:52:48 PM
Not that it's all that relevant (due to having NI standard actions), but PP has NI move actions, too (NI swift actions + Font of Power + Hustle).

Does this work? Turn any personal range spell into touch range by giving the target the Share Spells ability of a familiar?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 26, 2012, 06:43:44 PM
For the AC, it's also infinite because he can add con, wis, cha, and int to AC, and possibly str (monk, SS, Fist of the Forest for con, paladin (with Serenity or not determines wis/cha, there's an AFC that changes the saves to AC), ghost's deflection, Swashbuckler/Factotum, probably more).  So even if dex is denied somehow, still gets infinite AC.

Also, since he has a truely infinite number of turn attempts, doesn't he have a true infinite number of swift actions?
It is not an infinite number of swift actions because the conversion is not automatic, it needs conscious effort. As a result it can never be infinite since it is the finite result of an action done a finite number of time. To put it another way, the result will always be countable and infinity is not countable.

That depends on how the process of activating the ability is resolved. If you can, for instance, spend half of your (infinite) turn attempts on the ability, then you would have an infinite number of actions. I'm AFB at the moment, but I think that the wording of the ability was more of a 1:1 thing instead of an x:x, thus requiring it to be countable.
It is done one at a time.
I was under the impression that Pun-pun used Singular Enemy, Zodar Invulnerability, the Tarasque Regeneration, and Alter Reality - permanenced Favor of the Martyr in concert for absolute immunity to everything.
I've already had Singular Enemy and Zodar Invulnerability. I'll add the Tarasque's Regeneration and immunity to non-lethal damage (which can be gotten through better methods than Favor of the Martyr) when I have time to look up the exact wording.
Quote
Also, for actions: Chronotyryn; Sharn; Choker; and Garryl's Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy reinforced with an Affinity Field (due to the copy-puns). But it can never hit true infinite, the number of actions you can take is always going to be a known factor, no matter how insanely many there may be.
The abilities of Chronotyryns, Sharns, and Chokers are pretty much made irrelevant by Garryl's Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy (which is already mentioned). Also Affinity Field isn't needed do to Amalgam().
Not that it's all that relevant (due to having NI standard actions), but PP has NI move actions, too (NI swift actions + Font of Power + Hustle).

Does this work? Turn any personal range spell into touch range by giving the target the Share Spells ability of a familiar?
As you said it is a less useful version of the trick already there. As for the second bit, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on January 26, 2012, 06:55:35 PM
I was under the impression that Pun-pun used Singular Enemy, Zodar Invulnerability, the Tarasque Regeneration, and Alter Reality - permanenced Favor of the Martyr in concert for absolute immunity to everything.
I've already added Singular Enemy and Zodar Invulnerability. I'll add the Tarasque's Regeneration and immunity to non-lethal damage (which can be gotten through better methods than Favor of the Martyr) when I have time to look up the exact wording.

Actually, the point of FotM is the status immunities. It fills in Daze, which is not covered by even the divine immunities.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on January 26, 2012, 09:18:21 PM
How exactly does he have infinite ability scores?  The original post has NI scores, and I can't remember (or find) how to get the infinite ones.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 26, 2012, 09:25:03 PM
How exactly does he have infinite ability scores?  The original post has NI scores, and I can't remember (or find) how to get the infinite ones.
It is listed in my post. "Omniscificer Trick + Pain Master + Bellflower Tattoo + Alter Reality to make it permanent."

I was under the impression that Pun-pun used Singular Enemy, Zodar Invulnerability, the Tarasque Regeneration, and Alter Reality - permanenced Favor of the Martyr in concert for absolute immunity to everything.
I've already added Singular Enemy and Zodar Invulnerability. I'll add the Tarasque's Regeneration and immunity to non-lethal damage (which can be gotten through better methods than Favor of the Martyr) when I have time to look up the exact wording.

Actually, the point of FotM is the status immunities. It fills in Daze, which is not covered by even the divine immunities.
I'll add that then, though there wouldn't be any way for Pun-pun to get it except self-inflicted (do to Singular Enemy).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on January 26, 2012, 09:50:37 PM
Right.  What is the Omniscificer trick?  And Pain Master?  The Pain Master one is the infinite damage loop+delay death+drown yourself, right?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on January 26, 2012, 10:12:10 PM
Right.  What is the Omniscificer trick?  And Pain Master?  The Pain Master one is the infinite damage loop+delay death+drown yourself, right?

Omnificer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer) and Pain Mastery is a feat in Savage Species (p37).

It makes your stats increase to an un-quantifiable extent instantaneously. Infinite.

(Its starts with just Str, but Bellflower lets you share the love)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on January 26, 2012, 10:38:35 PM
Thank you!  I knew it was this, I just couldn't remember or find it!
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on January 26, 2012, 10:53:20 PM
On a related note... the methods of becoming immune to damage would negate the omniscificer trick. So Singular Enemy, Zodar Invulnerability and Tarasque's Regeneration. Singular Enemy could be made to work if the infinite damage comes from your enemy.

Hmm... you're receiving infinite damage as a constant effect. Jovoc Aura? Anything, or any part of anything, that isn't a tanari gets auto-pwnd.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 27, 2012, 10:50:50 AM
On a related note... the methods of becoming immune to damage would negate the omniscificer trick. So Singular Enemy, Zodar Invulnerability and Tarasque's Regeneration. Singular Enemy could be made to work if the infinite damage comes from your enemy.

Hmm... you're receiving infinite damage as a constant effect. Jovoc Aura? Anything, or any part of anything, that isn't a tanari gets auto-pwnd.
Firstly, you could simply do the omniscificer trick before giving yourself Singular Enemy. Secondly, as the opening post already states, Singular Enemy can be pointed at one of Pun-Pun's other bodies do to Amalgam.

Nice find on the Jovoc's Aura of Retribution. While I wouldn't think Pun-Pun would want it active all the time since it is indiscriminate, being able to deal damage to people immune to damage is a really nice trick.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: sirpercival on January 27, 2012, 10:57:23 AM
You know... Pun-Pun doesn't even have to be a kobold.  He could be a Rilkan or Skarn, too -- they're Scaled Ones.  :)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on January 27, 2012, 11:20:01 AM
Yes, but it's better this way.  The original reason Pun-Pun was a kobold was because it was Khan's attempt at proving that they can be good, for a kobold optimization thread.  Pun-Pun doesn't even need to be a scaled one, with the 1st level trick for gaining the abilities, iirc.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: AyeGill on January 27, 2012, 02:05:59 PM
It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
Cantor's Diagonal Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument) is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.

First, imagine an infinitely long sequence, where each element is either 1 or 0. One such sequence could be 111111..., another 000000..., another 10101010..., and so on. Now, imagine that we take all of these sequences, and arrange them into a list. It might look something like this:

1: 111111111....
2: 000000000....
3: 101010101....
4: 010101010....
5: 100100100....
6: 011011011....
...

Thus, we associate each natural number with one such possible sequence. Now, one might think that, since there are infinitely many natural numbers, once we had associated every natural number with a sequence, there would be no more sequences. One would be wrong. Consider the sequence S, defined thus: the nth element in S is 0 if the nth element of the nth sequence is 1, and 1 otherwise. This sequence is clearly not anywhere in the list - it is by its very nature different from every sequence in the list. We can append this specific sequence to the list, but from the same definition, another sequence will arise which does not fit in the list. As long as every sequence on the list can be associated with a natural number, there will be sequences not on the list. Therefore, the set which contains all the possible sequences must have a larger cardinality than the set of all natural numbers, or, in layman's terms, there must be more possible sequences than natural numbers.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Kremti on January 27, 2012, 03:07:14 PM
Yes, but it's better this way.  The original reason Pun-Pun was a kobold was because it was Khan's attempt at proving that they can be good, for a kobold optimization thread.  Pun-Pun doesn't even need to be a scaled one, with the 1st level trick for gaining the abilities, iirc.
Heresy!  Pun-Pun has always been, is and shall always be a kobold!    :shakefist
-K
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on January 28, 2012, 03:14:39 PM
AyeGill ... Thanks. Now just don't expect to quiz me on the material anytime soon.  ;)



The kobold part is for the specific thingy of Scaled One.
And that kobolds suck.
Incentive To Play A Kobold ... has a slightly naive assumption to it,
that doesn't really include an understanding of where Pun-pun was gonna go.
We were all so young and innocent back then.
 :bigeyes  :smirk


It should be possible to play a Kobold that a Sarrukh has tampered with,
that would also keep up with the Full Casters despite not being one
Should.
(I know it's heresy)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 29, 2012, 03:38:29 PM
Does anyone know if manifester level/caster level can be made infinite? If not, what is the best method to get NI manifester level/caster level?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: sirpercival on January 29, 2012, 03:42:36 PM
I think you mean "Teleport through Time" and not "Travel through Time".
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 29, 2012, 03:48:09 PM
I think you mean "Teleport through Time" and not "Travel through Time".
Nice catch. Thank you.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on January 29, 2012, 03:57:02 PM
Does anyone know if manifester level/caster level can be made infinite? If not, what is the best method to get NI manifester level/caster level?

Well, for CL, the only thing that doesn't increase your CL by a set amount is Consumptive Field (and the Greater version). So the whole "Looped Consumptive Field" trick may work for this (the greater version can be fed by Summon Monster 1).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on January 29, 2012, 05:45:10 PM
Does anyone know if manifester level/caster level can be made infinite? If not, what is the best method to get NI manifester level/caster level?

Well, for CL, the only thing that doesn't increase your CL by a set amount is Consumptive Field (and the Greater version). So the whole "Looped Consumptive Field" trick may work for this (the greater version can be fed by Summon Monster 1).
So NI caster level by getting NI actions, then alternatively casting SM3 (for faster growth) and Altering Reality to make it permanent (to stack up tons), then GCF, then repeat?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on January 30, 2012, 09:32:08 PM
Does anyone know if manifester level/caster level can be made infinite? If not, what is the best method to get NI manifester level/caster level?

Well, for CL, the only thing that doesn't increase your CL by a set amount is Consumptive Field (and the Greater version). So the whole "Looped Consumptive Field" trick may work for this (the greater version can be fed by Summon Monster 1).
Added.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on January 31, 2012, 05:27:19 AM
If you care to be more explicit about it, NI HD/levels means NI feats and skill levels.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 03, 2012, 05:55:42 AM
Does anyone agree with my interpretation that the Paragon Visionary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) epic feat gives you true seeing as far as you can see? Or by "as true seeing" is it also referring to the range?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: AyeGill on February 03, 2012, 06:22:19 AM
I'd say as far as you can see. But i agree it's up for debate
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on February 03, 2012, 08:15:21 AM
Yeah, it's as far as you can see.  The "as true seeing" isn't refering to range (nothing does), so it's obviously just using that as a method of clarifying how you see through illusions.  Intention is as far as you can see.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: grautry on February 03, 2012, 10:26:40 AM
I'd add Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery(CoRuin 37) to Won't stay dead if killed part. It allows for Pun-Pun to effectively have NI infinite number of phylacteries.

Depending on how you read this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a), stealing Primus' Telepathy might allow for Pun-Pun to have Telepathy with truly infinite range(or else Telepathy with infinite range while on Mechanus), but this is subject to interpretation, 3.0 material and definitely shaky RAW.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 03, 2012, 05:04:26 PM
It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
Cantor's Diagonal Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument) is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.

First, imagine an infinitely long sequence, where each element is either 1 or 0. One such sequence could be 111111..., another 000000..., another 10101010..., and so on. Now, imagine that we take all of these sequences, and arrange them into a list. It might look something like this:

1: 111111111....
2: 000000000....
3: 101010101....
4: 010101010....
5: 100100100....
6: 011011011....
...

Thus, we associate each natural number with one such possible sequence. Now, one might think that, since there are infinitely many natural numbers, once we had associated every natural number with a sequence, there would be no more sequences. One would be wrong. Consider the sequence S, defined thus: the nth element in S is 0 if the nth element of the nth sequence is 1, and 1 otherwise. This sequence is clearly not anywhere in the list - it is by its very nature different from every sequence in the list. We can append this specific sequence to the list, but from the same definition, another sequence will arise which does not fit in the list. As long as every sequence on the list can be associated with a natural number, there will be sequences not on the list. Therefore, the set which contains all the possible sequences must have a larger cardinality than the set of all natural numbers, or, in layman's terms, there must be more possible sequences than natural numbers.
thanks again

Now I hafta go study this ...  :P
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: AyeGill on February 03, 2012, 05:09:29 PM
Wikipedia explains it very nicely
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 03, 2012, 06:21:22 PM
I'd add Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery(CoRuin 37) to Won't stay dead if killed part. It allows for Pun-Pun to effectively have NI phylacteries.
Nice catch on that one. That is going in both the Won't stay dead if killed subsection and the Truly Infinite section do to the wording "Each time it is cast, the number of objects that comprise the lich's phylactery can be increased by an amount equal to the caster's modifier for its spellcasting ability." Which means the caster doesn't have to choose a number since the spell can automatically be set to have an effect equal to one of Pun-Pun's already infinite mental score modifiers.
Quote
Depending on how you read this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a), stealing Primus' Telepathy might allow for Pun-Pun to have Telepathy with truly infinite range(or else Telepathy with infinite range while on Mechanus), but this is subject to interpretation, 3.0 material and definitely shaky RAW.
Edit: So I read it and the only place it states the range of Primus's telepathy is in Table 1 so we have to take the table at its word. That means its telepathic range is the entirety of Mechanus and not an inch outside of it. Thus it will go in the Truly Infinite section with that qualification.

If you care to be more explicit about it, NI HD/levels means NI feats and skill levels.
I added the bit about skill levels/ranks but Pun-Pun already has nigh-infinite feats/abilities.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on February 05, 2012, 03:49:03 AM
As per the extra spell slots table, and Pun-Pun's truly infinite ability modifiers, they have truly infinite spell slots.
Greater Celerity + NI Swift Actions therefore grants you NI full actions as opposed to standard, so long as you don't screw up and need to use an immediate action.

Could be used for.... something, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 05, 2012, 09:40:16 AM
As per the extra spell slots table, and Pun-Pun's truly infinite ability modifiers, they have truly infinite spell slots.
Greater Celerity + NI Swift Actions therefore grants you NI full actions as opposed to standard, so long as you don't screw up and need to use an immediate action.

Could be used for.... something, I'm sure.
Added. Nice find.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: JohnnyMayHymn on February 05, 2012, 11:02:53 AM
It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
Cantor's Diagonal Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument) is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.

First, imagine an infinitely long sequence, where each element is either 1 or 0. One such sequence could be 111111..., another 000000..., another 10101010..., and so on. Now, imagine that we take all of these sequences, and arrange them into a list. It might look something like this:

1: 111111111....
2: 000000000....
3: 101010101....
4: 010101010....
5: 100100100....
6: 011011011....
...

Thus, we associate each natural number with one such possible sequence. Now, one might think that, since there are infinitely many natural numbers, once we had associated every natural number with a sequence, there would be no more sequences. One would be wrong. Consider the sequence S, defined thus: the nth element in S is 0 if the nth element of the nth sequence is 1, and 1 otherwise. This sequence is clearly not anywhere in the list - it is by its very nature different from every sequence in the list. We can append this specific sequence to the list, but from the same definition, another sequence will arise which does not fit in the list. As long as every sequence on the list can be associated with a natural number, there will be sequences not on the list. Therefore, the set which contains all the possible sequences must have a larger cardinality than the set of all natural numbers, or, in layman's terms, there must be more possible sequences than natural numbers.
 
 If your base number system is large enough, that is one symbol for each known positive integer, then there is room on the list.  You are simply generating sequences faster than natural numbers.  Furthermore, I'm not convinced that infinity exists, there is always a limitation. 
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: AyeGill on February 05, 2012, 11:13:45 AM
It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
Cantor's Diagonal Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument) is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.

First, imagine an infinitely long sequence, where each element is either 1 or 0. One such sequence could be 111111..., another 000000..., another 10101010..., and so on. Now, imagine that we take all of these sequences, and arrange them into a list. It might look something like this:

1: 111111111....
2: 000000000....
3: 101010101....
4: 010101010....
5: 100100100....
6: 011011011....
...

Thus, we associate each natural number with one such possible sequence. Now, one might think that, since there are infinitely many natural numbers, once we had associated every natural number with a sequence, there would be no more sequences. One would be wrong. Consider the sequence S, defined thus: the nth element in S is 0 if the nth element of the nth sequence is 1, and 1 otherwise. This sequence is clearly not anywhere in the list - it is by its very nature different from every sequence in the list. We can append this specific sequence to the list, but from the same definition, another sequence will arise which does not fit in the list. As long as every sequence on the list can be associated with a natural number, there will be sequences not on the list. Therefore, the set which contains all the possible sequences must have a larger cardinality than the set of all natural numbers, or, in layman's terms, there must be more possible sequences than natural numbers.
 
 If your base number system is large enough, that is one symbol for each known positive integer, then there is room on the list.  You are simply generating sequences faster than natural numbers.  Furthermore, I'm not convinced that infinity exists, there is always a limitation.

Infinity definitely doesn't exist in reality - one of the main problems in physics today is in fact reconciling quantum mechanics with relativity, because when you combine them infinite values spring up all over the place, and that doesn't make any sense. However, a lot of higher-order mathematics have no counterpart in reality, see also pure mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_mathematics). You can argue back and forth whether these mathematics are interesting or useful at all, and i don't really think the difference between Aleph 0 and 1 has any bearing on pun-pun - aleph 1 has yet to be reached in DnD.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on February 05, 2012, 04:09:47 PM
Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.

Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.

Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich (http://"http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.html"). Specifically, magic immunity.

Quote
Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 05, 2012, 04:54:54 PM
Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.

Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.
I couldn't find any mention of a killing trait. Where did you find it?

Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich (http://"http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.html"). Specifically, magic immunity.

Quote
Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Magic immunity would only make Pun-Pun worse. Pun-Pun is already immune to all attacks that might hurt it so magic immunity can only make it immune to things that might help it.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on February 06, 2012, 12:50:35 AM
Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.

Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.
I couldn't find any mention of a killing trait. Where did you find it?
Manual of the Planes, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Chronius.
Absorbs good people, permanently destroys evil people.

Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich (http://"http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.html"). Specifically, magic immunity.

Quote
Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Magic immunity would only make Pun-Pun worse. Pun-Pun is already immune to all attacks that might hurt it so magic immunity can only make it immune to things that might help it.
Pun-Pun is already making backups. Any useful spells have already been alter-reality'd onto Pun-Pun, so 1/4 of the Pun Pun's (every  second division) would be given Zodar Immunities and Magic Immunity.

Also, there are a number of (harmless) spells which can kill/harm you. Pays to have insurance.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 06, 2012, 09:05:25 AM
Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.

Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.
I couldn't find any mention of a killing trait. Where did you find it?
Manual of the Planes, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Chronius.
Absorbs good people, permanently destroys evil people.
That isn't an explicit ability, that is specifically presented as complete speculation. For all we know Bahamut just annihilates anyone who enters.

"Those few who achieve the Illuminated Heaven never return, so no account records Chronias' true aspect. Tales say that those who enter have their inherent goodness magnified until their essence joins with Celestia itself. Or, if they harbor evil, their souls are extinguished and their existence is permanently erased from the multiverse."
Quote
Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich (http://"http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.html"). Specifically, magic immunity.

Quote
Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Magic immunity would only make Pun-Pun worse. Pun-Pun is already immune to all attacks that might hurt it so magic immunity can only make it immune to things that might help it.
Pun-Pun is already making backups. Any useful spells have already been alter-reality'd onto Pun-Pun, so 1/4 of the Pun Pun's (every  second division) would be given Zodar Immunities and Magic Immunity.

Also, there are a number of (harmless) spells which can kill/harm you. Pays to have insurance.
Any 'harmless' spell that can harm/kill you wouldn't effect Pun-Pun do to Singular Enemy(Ex).

Every fourth Pun-Pun could certainly be given them but it would still be pointless since they don't protect Pun-Pun any more than Singular Enemy(Ex) does.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Kremti on February 06, 2012, 10:44:54 AM
Waitaminute...does Pun-Pun only have *1* immediate action?  Is there a way for him to get more than 1 (preferably, NI or I)?

-K
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: AyeGill on February 06, 2012, 11:40:27 AM
Waitaminute...does Pun-Pun only have *1* immediate action?  Is there a way for him to get more than 1 (preferably, NI or I)?

-K
Would divine impetus not grant NI many more?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on February 06, 2012, 12:56:56 PM
Nope, DI only grants swift actions.

Pun-Pun can, at least, use multiple ToB Counters in a round through that Diamond Mind stance.

Pun-Pun can sort of fake NI immediate actions, though. Whenever he's done using one immediate action, he can use a readied action to cast Time Stop, which gives him 2-5 turns. The important part is that when the TS ends, he's on a new turn, so he has a new immediate action again. Rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 06, 2012, 02:05:26 PM
During your turn, immediate actions can be taken as many times as one has swift actions. Outside of your turn, you can only take one immediate action. I will add this as a note so people don't get confused.

Quote from: srd
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on February 06, 2012, 02:53:20 PM
Infinite Int + NI feats (NI of which are taken as Font of Inspiration) means NI inspiration points, and thus another source of NI standard actions and also NI Sneak Attack. Also, any other Factotum abilities taken to ridiculous extremes.

Pun-Pun similarly has NI actual power points from taking Psionic Talent NI times (instead of just not needing to spend any from Font of Power).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Agita on February 06, 2012, 02:56:43 PM
Pun-Pun similarly has NI actual power points from taking Psionic Talent NI times (instead of just not needing to spend any from Font of Power).
Truly inifinite, actually, from NI manifester level + truly infinite Int/Wis/Cha.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on February 06, 2012, 07:07:48 PM
And aren't inspiration points based on int+FoI?  If that's the case, then he has literally infinite inspiration points, and thus....NI factotum abilities?

Any ability base directly off of ability scores (power points, inspiration points, spells per day, turn/rebuke attempts, etc) are truly infinite for him because of infinite ability scores.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 06, 2012, 08:30:31 PM
Pun-Pun similarly has NI actual power points from taking Psionic Talent NI times (instead of just not needing to spend any from Font of Power).
Truly inifinite, actually, from NI manifester level + truly infinite Int/Wis/Cha.
Added.
And aren't inspiration points based on int+FoI?  If that's the case, then he has literally infinite inspiration points, and thus....NI factotum abilities?

Any ability base directly off of ability scores (power points, inspiration points, spells per day, turn/rebuke attempts, etc) are truly infinite for him because of infinite ability scores.
They are not based off int sadly enough.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on February 07, 2012, 07:53:18 AM
Truly infinite damage (not just melee) with Cunning Insight from Factotum.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Kremti on February 07, 2012, 11:39:44 AM
So, I think sometimes we need to compile things that limits *him* or things he *can't* do.  Not that it's much of limitation to have only 1 immediate action per turn, given that he can generate NI-ready-standard-action-he-can-use-whenever-he-wants via Synchronicity, but still, I feel like saying "he can't have the second immediate action" is wrong!

-K
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on February 07, 2012, 12:03:04 PM
There's still effectively NI immediate actions. Just do a time stop every time you want one, then you're ready to do it when it ends.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 07, 2012, 02:38:40 PM
So, I think sometimes we need to compile things that limits *him* or things he *can't* do.  Not that it's much of limitation to have only 1 immediate action per turn, given that he can generate NI-ready-standard-action-he-can-use-whenever-he-wants via Synchronicity, but still, I feel like saying "he can't have the second immediate action" is wrong!

-K
You are right, it is wrong. However it is not wrong because Pun-Pun can get around it, it is wrong because the rules say otherwise.

During your turn, immediate actions can be taken as many times as one has swift actions. Outside of your turn, you can only take one immediate action. I will add this as a note so people don't get confused.

Quote from: srd
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Kremti on February 08, 2012, 09:49:00 AM
Fine, splitting hairs.  He can have NI immediate actions during his turn because immediate actions count as swift actions during his turn, but he still can only have 1 immediate action outside of his turn, is what I mean  :P

As I said, it's not *much* of a limitation as he's got NI Syncronicity-readied actions.  But still, one of the point of P-P is that he can bend the rules of D&D to the extreme, but this is one rule he can't get around?   :???

-K
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on February 08, 2012, 11:12:48 AM
Both Wish and Arcane Fusion can mimic spells that take an immediate action. To use those when it's not your turn you can use Contingency (SLA to let you refresh it each turn), Synchronicity, or that divine spell that gives you an extra readied action.

Quoted for even more ways around the immediate action matter. Still not perfect, as not everything immediate can still be mimicked this way.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on February 08, 2012, 12:01:39 PM
If you can get a standard action at any point, you can use that to Time Stop (of which you of course have prepared an infinite amount). Then the immediate action you just used will take a swift action from the next 1d4+1 time stopped rounds, leaving you available to use another afterwards.


Stray thought: infinite charisma + epic leadership = followers of level infinity? Got to be a way to use that to get infinite HD yourself. nvm, there's a max level 20 clause on that :(
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on February 08, 2012, 12:13:09 PM
Nevermind your nevermind, because Epic Leadership.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Agita on February 08, 2012, 12:23:58 PM
Nevermind your nevermind, because Epic Leadership.
Epic Leadership is what caps followers at level 20, actually.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on February 08, 2012, 12:58:59 PM
Oh!  That's what you meant (well, Halinn meant)!  I thought you were talking about number of followers not increasing after YOU reach level 20.  No, but Pun-Pun has infinite followers, of every level, but none above level 20.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Agita on February 08, 2012, 01:04:15 PM
Hmm... Any chance of somehow abusing your truly infinite followers to gain truly infinite HD? Probably not...
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on February 08, 2012, 01:09:59 PM
Isn't there a PrC for Leadership?  I know Kensai has one ability, but it's not based off Leadership and won't help....

Anyways, I don't think there's a method of turning followers into HD that doesn't work with normal creatures.  Although, this does present a philosophical problem: does this mean that there are an infinite number of intelligent creatures?  Or does this mean that are only a finite number of creatures and every single one is a follower of Pun-Pun, and Pun-Pun has a finite number of followers?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Agita on February 08, 2012, 01:12:11 PM
Isn't there a PrC for Leadership?  I know Kensai has one ability, but it's not based off Leadership and won't help....

Anyways, I don't think there's a method of turning followers into HD that doesn't work with normal creatures.  Although, this does present a philosophical problem: does this mean that there are an infinite number of intelligent creatures?  Or does this mean that are only a finite number of creatures and every single one is a follower of Pun-Pun, and Pun-Pun has a finite number of followers?
Well, by the strict rules as written, you're entitled to your truly infinite followers. So if there aren't truly infinitely many followers in the campaigns setting... I guess they appear out of thin air in a puff of continuity.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on February 08, 2012, 01:21:04 PM
Is Pun-Pun omni-present?  If so, every single follower of his (whether it's an infinite amount, or every creature in the universe) is immune to fear effects.  HoB, Legendary Leader 5th level ability.  Pun-Pun is also immune to them, due to the 1st level ability.

New problem with infinite creatures: where are they?  I mean, these rules don't make the universe infinitely big......

Pun-Pun breaks physics once more!

EDIT: I also believe that these followers have infinite attack bonus/damage, due to Epic Inspire Courage.

EDITEDIT: NI attack/damage, due to NI HD for Pun-Pun.

EDITEDITEDIT: maybe infinite?  Is there an ability to grant someone your ability modifier as a bard or something similar?

EDIT: Oh jeeze, this is great: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/highProselytizer.htm
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Agita on February 08, 2012, 01:28:41 PM
Is Pun-Pun omni-present?  If so, every single follower of his (whether it's an infinite amount, or every creature in the universe) is immune to fear effects.  HoB, Legendary Leader 5th level ability.  Pun-Pun is also immune to them, due to the 1st level ability.

New problem with infinite creatures: where are they?  I mean, these rules don't make the universe infinitely big......

Pun-Pun breaks physics once more!

EDIT: I also believe that these followers have infinite attack bonus/damage, due to Epic Inspire Courage.

EDITEDIT: NI attack/damage, due to NI HD for Pun-Pun.

EDITEDITEDIT: maybe infinite?  Is there an ability to grant someone your ability modifier as a bard or something similar?
Do you mean Epic Inspiration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicInspiration)? If so, that'd be NI attack/damage. And also NI HD, incidentally.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on February 08, 2012, 01:39:34 PM
I didn't think it granted additional HD!  That's nice.  The link I posted is to the HIgh Proselytizer, and the first level ability is what I'm talking about.  Anyone within NI distance of Pun-Pun is enraptured with a save to resist of DC infinity.  NI times per day he can do this, and it lasts NI minutes.  Effectively, this means that every crature within NI distance of any Pun-Pun is Charmed, as per Charm Monster.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 08, 2012, 02:02:41 PM
Is Pun-Pun omni-present?  If so, every single follower of his (whether it's an infinite amount, or every creature in the universe) is immune to fear effects.  HoB, Legendary Leader 5th level ability.  Pun-Pun is also immune to them, due to the 1st level ability.
Pun-Pun is not omni-present, just nigh-infinitely large with a nigh-infinite number of bodies. Also, yes, Pun-Pun does literally have an infinite number of followers.
Quote
New problem with infinite creatures: where are they?  I mean, these rules don't make the universe infinitely big......
Yes, yes the rules actually do. In fact most of the major planes are each explicitly infinitely large.

I will take a look at everything else (and add them to the list) when I'm free (I'm rather busy right now).

Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on February 08, 2012, 07:45:43 PM
Hmm...so the universes have infinite mass as well?  That solves that problem!  Now the question becomes whether or not he has every creature as a follower or not.  I'm not sure how one would even BEGIN to solve that problem, so any math people want to take a crack at it?  Though, where does it discuss this?  MotP?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on February 09, 2012, 02:57:26 PM
Hmm...so the universes have infinite mass as well?  That solves that problem!  Now the question becomes whether or not he has every creature as a follower or not.  I'm not sure how one would even BEGIN to solve that problem, so any math people want to take a crack at it?  Though, where does it discuss this?  MotP?

Assuming that there are an infinite amount of potential followers at each level, 1-20, it is undefined whether or not every one of them is a follower. (+∞) - (-∞) = +∞, (-∞) + (-∞) = -∞, but (+∞) - (+∞) and (-∞) + (+∞) are both undefined.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on February 09, 2012, 03:17:40 PM
Regarding actions, can we assign them a specific time in a turn's 6 seconds, or only the order they take place in? If the former, I think legitimately infinite actions works out by the expedient of taking your first action 1/2 way through your turn, then your second 1/2 way through the remainder of your turn, and so on and so forth. You reach the end of the sequence at the end of your 6 seconds, having taken infinite actions (rather than arbitrarily many).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 09, 2012, 04:36:45 PM
Both Wish and Arcane Fusion can mimic spells that take an immediate action. To use those when it's not your turn you can use Contingency (SLA to let you refresh it each turn), Synchronicity, or that divine spell that gives you an extra readied action.

Quoted for even more ways around the immediate action matter. Still not perfect, as not everything immediate can still be mimicked this way.
Added.
Regarding actions, can we assign them a specific time in a turn's 6 seconds, or only the order they take place in? If the former, I think legitimately infinite actions works out by the expedient of taking your first action 1/2 way through your turn, then your second 1/2 way through the remainder of your turn, and so on and so forth. You reach the end of the sequence at the end of your 6 seconds, having taken infinite actions (rather than arbitrarily many).
We can not assign them a specific time and even if we could, it wouldn't help since you could only assign a finite number of actions to take place in that sequence. You can only take a finite number of actions in that sequence since you have to specify when each one of them individually takes place, instead of just setting up an automatic rule specifying when each of them occurs.

EDIT: I also believe that these followers have infinite attack bonus/damage, due to Epic Inspire Courage.

EDITEDIT: NI attack/damage, due to NI HD for Pun-Pun.

EDITEDITEDIT: maybe infinite?  Is there an ability to grant someone your ability modifier as a bard or something similar?
Pun-Pun can do all of that with Manipulate Form so I'm not sure if it should be added.
Quote
EDIT: Oh jeeze, this is great: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/highProselytizer.htm
The Control Creatures divine salient ability supplants that. Thank you for indirectly giving me the idea to look that up. :)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on February 09, 2012, 05:49:48 PM
Wait, why do you have to specify each one? I mean, in practice, you're going to want to in order to actually accomplish anything, but couldn't you just declare that you will spend every available action casting the everloving shit out of meteor swarm on the same area? Or even a repetitive sequence whose details never change?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on February 09, 2012, 05:59:09 PM
Wouldn't that also allow for infinite xp?  Cause, infinite actions...and if it's an action that grants xp......
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 09, 2012, 06:29:04 PM
Wait, why do you have to specify each one? I mean, in practice, you're going to want to in order to actually accomplish anything, but couldn't you just declare that you will spend every available action casting the everloving shit out of meteor swarm on the same area? Or even a repetitive sequence whose details never change?
Yes, you have to actually specify each one. You can't just declare that you want to take an infinite number of actions, you actually have to take each action one at a time (even if you fully intend to keep taking actions forever) and thus can never reach an infinite number.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on February 10, 2012, 02:22:19 AM
Okay, allow me to cut out the excess verbiage.

Why?


Oh, wait it's because you only ever have one at a time, and it's only taking one that triggers the next. And we're disallowing assigning routine instructions because there's no actual mechanic for that, and it's something that only exists on a metagame level?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 10, 2012, 07:52:43 AM
Okay, allow me to cut out the excess verbiage.

Why?


Oh, wait it's because you only ever have one at a time, and it's only taking one that triggers the next. And we're disallowing assigning routine instructions because there's no actual mechanic for that, and it's something that only exists on a metagame level?
Yep.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on February 10, 2012, 08:39:05 AM
I think Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy can be a true infinity. Unaugmented, Synchronicity still needs to have its action specified (I think). If the action is "manifest a Synchro-linked-Synchro, whose readied action is the same as this one," then choice is removed from the matter and the loop cannot be stopped.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 10, 2012, 02:17:13 PM
I think Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy can be a true infinity. Unaugmented, Synchronicity still needs to have its action specified (I think). If the action is "manifest a Synchro-linked-Synchro, whose readied action is the same as this one," then choice is removed from the matter and the loop cannot be stopped.
Readied actions do not go off automatically, one must choose to take a readied action and can only make that choice if the conditions specified for the readied action are met.  Thus only a finite number of actions can be reached.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on February 10, 2012, 03:25:49 PM
Huh. I'd always misread it as having to take the readied action once it was readied, not being optional. Thanks.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 10, 2012, 05:22:19 PM
Despite only having 1 Contingency at a time,
each single one Contingency could be snagged
from the various infinite time past(s) and futures.
I wonder what sort of wording is necessary here.
Obviously a true infinity Knowledge check solves this in-game.

Same goes for the wordings of Sychronicitys.
Infinity Knowledge has the right wording.
Pick a trigger action ... so long as it happens
some where and some time, you could yank it
out of "that""there""then" into this round here now.

Hmm...so the universes have infinite mass as well?  That solves that problem!  Now the question becomes whether or not he has every creature as a follower or not.  I'm not sure how one would even BEGIN to solve that problem, so any math people want to take a crack at it?  Though, where does it discuss this?  MotP?

Assuming that there are an infinite amount of potential followers at each level, 1-20, it is undefined whether or not every one of them is a follower. (+∞) - (-∞) = +∞, (-∞) + (-∞) = -∞, but (+∞) - (+∞) and (-∞) + (+∞) are both undefined.

My kitty avatar is confused again ...
:D
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 10, 2012, 05:25:06 PM
Wait, so ... every Commoner might be a secret follower of Pun-pun ?

The whole Thor thing is just to impress the local hot shots.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: AyeGill on February 10, 2012, 05:27:56 PM

Hmm...so the universes have infinite mass as well?  That solves that problem!  Now the question becomes whether or not he has every creature as a follower or not.  I'm not sure how one would even BEGIN to solve that problem, so any math people want to take a crack at it?  Though, where does it discuss this?  MotP?

Assuming that there are an infinite amount of potential followers at each level, 1-20, it is undefined whether or not every one of them is a follower. (+∞) - (-∞) = +∞, (-∞) + (-∞) = -∞, but (+∞) - (+∞) and (-∞) + (+∞) are both undefined.

My kitty avatar is confused again ...
:D

If I'm getting what he's saying, as long as an infinite amount of potential followers(people) exist in the universe, even if we do have infinite followers, there could still be people who are not our followers.

If p is the number of people/potential followers in the universe, and f is the number of followers we have.
p = ∞ and f = ∞, obviously
but p = f+∞ can still be true. So there might still be an infinite amount of people who are not our followers.
How does this work? Make every second person in the universe a follower. We now have an infinite amount of followers, but there's an equal amount of people who are not our followers.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on February 11, 2012, 09:49:56 AM
Hell, even every millionth, billionth or whatever-nth person could be a follower, and that would satisfy an infinite amount of followers. Infinities are f'd up.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 11, 2012, 03:06:09 PM
New problem with infinite creatures: where are they?  I mean, these rules don't make the universe infinitely big......

Pun-Pun breaks physics once more!

Now remember my young apprentice,
it only hurts Pun-pun when you practice
... not when you actually hit something.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: AyeGill on February 11, 2012, 03:08:56 PM
Hell, even every millionth, billionth or whatever-nth person could be a follower, and that would satisfy an infinite amount of followers. Infinities are f'd up.

Cantor arguably went mad because of his intense study into their nature(note: he did go mad, but you can debate whether his area of study was the reason)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on February 27, 2012, 01:55:27 PM
As far as I understand the BoVD sacrifice mechanics, an infinite knowledge check means that you can get infinite dark crafting gold/xp.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 27, 2012, 08:15:27 PM
As far as I understand the BoVD sacrifice mechanics, an infinite knowledge check means that you can get infinite dark crafting gold/xp.
The only thing I can see that might make it not work is the fact that the DC has to be set ahead of time and I'm not sure one can make it infinity since there is no set equal mechanic. I'll have to look into it further.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on February 27, 2012, 09:10:55 PM
At the very least, it's NI gold that can only be used for crafting.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on February 27, 2012, 09:19:55 PM
At the very least, it's NI gold that can only be used for crafting.

He already has NI item crafting. From his divine ranks. And it's instant.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on February 27, 2012, 10:01:51 PM
At the very least, it's NI gold that can only be used for crafting.

He already has NI item crafting. From his divine ranks. And it's instant.
Full round action from what I can tell, and with a rest period that can be quite long. This will at least allow Pun-Pun to work on another item while in the rest period from Divine Creation
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on March 01, 2012, 04:13:15 PM
So I've looked into it further, it can indeed only be a finite amount (since infinity isn't really a number, it's only treated as such in specific circumstances). I have thus added it to the nigh-infinite category.

Also for those who might not have noticed before, I found the Living Ship which has a speed dependent on the Intelligence score of its pilot and have thus added speed to the Infinite category.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on March 01, 2012, 04:46:16 PM
NI CL/ML? Might be some good spells in the RoS handbook to use with that.
Might want to mention Touchsight in the NI senses. The power scales at 10 ft/ML, so with Widen Power (or whichever metapsionic feat it is), it will be 4x the radius of the 5ft/ML telepathy/mindsight.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on March 30, 2012, 07:48:15 PM
Updated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on March 30, 2012, 08:36:31 PM
The NI manifester level is not mentioned explicitly. I imagine that the simplest method is just through NI levels
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Quillwraith on March 30, 2012, 09:18:29 PM
We should be able to manage aleph 1.
2^(aleph0) ≥ aleph1, so we find a way to square one of his stats, then a way to repeat it an infinite number of times.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on March 30, 2012, 09:45:52 PM
Updated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.

What's the wording on the various abilities that give Pun-Pun abilities? The older edition abilities may not be graspable, given that they are neither extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural, or natural to my knowledge.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on March 31, 2012, 01:10:57 AM
Updated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.

What's the wording on the various abilities that give Pun-Pun abilities? The older edition abilities may not be graspable, given that they are neither extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural, or natural to my knowledge.
If untyped, default to either extraordinary or natural. He could also just take levels in the various other edition classes :D
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on March 31, 2012, 01:59:01 AM
Updated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.

What's the wording on the various abilities that give Pun-Pun abilities? The older edition abilities may not be graspable, given that they are neither extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural, or natural to my knowledge.
If untyped, default to either extraordinary or natural. He could also just take levels in the various other edition classes :D

Not many of them. Even if he counts as human (and why wouldn't he?), dual-classing can still only be done among the list of valid multiclass combinations. And if the most recent source prevails on that, well, 4E's multiclassing rules are even worse for Pun-Pun, because I'm pretty sure there's no multiclass feat for Magic-Users, Fighting Men, Elves, Cavaliers, etc.. Might be able to hybrid them, at least.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on March 31, 2012, 02:09:35 AM
That can probably be solved with selective reading from 3e multiclass rules, which is also part of 4essential rules :p
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on March 31, 2012, 07:02:17 PM
To get abilities that can't be gotten by Itself or with Manipulate Form, all It has to do is use various Fusion tricks.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: jywu98 on April 03, 2012, 05:16:57 PM
Dunno if mentioned before, but:
Quote from: Elder Evils
Impervious to the Divine:
An elder evil that has this property cannot be affected by divine magic of any kind, regardless of the source.
Benefit: The elder evil is immune to all divine spells, whether from a spellcaster or a magic item. It is also immune to spell-like and supernatural abilities of extraplanar creatures and deities.
This ability is always active.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on April 03, 2012, 05:19:06 PM
That's a double-edged sword.  That makes Pun-Pun immune to all deities, but also to himself.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on April 07, 2012, 03:11:08 PM
From the Painisher (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4161.msg61584#msg61584), an idea for infinite xp (and thus infinite HD).  Kill an infinite number of creatures.  That part is obvious.  However.....

Some planes are infinitely large, correct?  So....destroy a plane.  Doesn't Pun-Pun have infinite reach?  And whirlwind attack dealing infinite damage with an infinite attack bonus?  Do that.  Kill an infinite number of creatures.  With one action, that way you don't level up, making anyone with a CR of at least 6 lower still give xp.  The problem I see is when he can do this.  If he can't until NI HD, then it can still maybe happen, just only killing things with NI HD.

I'm kinda on the fence on this one though, it doesn't seem like it should be possible, and I have a feeling I'm just missing something insanely obvious and it can't actually work.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on April 07, 2012, 03:23:19 PM
From the Painisher (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4161.msg61584#msg61584), an idea for infinite xp (and thus infinite HD).  Kill an infinite number of creatures.  That part is obvious.  However.....

Some planes are infinitely large, correct?  So....destroy a plane.  Doesn't Pun-Pun have infinite reach?  And whirlwind attack dealing infinite damage with an infinite attack bonus?  Do that.  Kill an infinite number of creatures.  With one action, that way you don't level up, making anyone with a CR of at least 6 lower still give xp.  The problem I see is when he can do this.  If he can't until NI HD, then it can still maybe happen, just only killing things with NI HD.

I'm kinda on the fence on this one though, it doesn't seem like it should be possible, and I have a feeling I'm just missing something insanely obvious and it can't actually work.
Doesn't work. Pun-Pun does not have infinite reach.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on April 07, 2012, 03:26:58 PM
Hmm, dang.  Does Pun-Pun have anything that can lead to an infinite area being covered?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: sirpercival on April 07, 2012, 03:30:45 PM
Infinite CL?

EDIT: Since this is YBIYBI, can we assume the Pun-Pun-friendly interpretation of Reserves of Strength?  If so, Pun-Pun can stack extended Suffer the Fleshes with his Infinite Con.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on April 07, 2012, 03:33:30 PM
Infinite CL?
Only nigh infinite, so it won't kill a truly infinite amount of enemies.

An additional problem with killing infinite creatures is that you're too high ECL for them to grant any experience points. If you instead treat everything as a single encounter, modifying the CR accordingly, you will be too low ECL to gain any experience, or you will only gain one non-infinite sum.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on April 07, 2012, 03:35:53 PM
That's why you don't level up until after the action that gets you infinite xp.  And if you do not have a true infinite HD, there WILL be an infinite number of creatures with an NI CR on an infinite plane.  So as long as you don't level up to infinity before you get infinite xp, you're fine on that front.

EDIT: basically, what this means is that in order for Pun-Pun to have infinite xp (and thus infinite levels in every class, with infinite HD), all he needs to do is have a truly infinite reach, and his infinite stats.  Anything that does truly infinite damage with an infinite area (or targets an infinite number of creatures) will net him infinite xp.

Alternatively, anything that provides xp, as long as he can do a true infinite number of those actions (so in any finite amount of time, accomplishes a true infinite number of the actions) will net him infinite xp.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on April 07, 2012, 03:58:14 PM
That's why you don't level up until after the action that gets you infinite xp.  And if you do not have a true infinite HD, there WILL be an infinite number of creatures with an NI CR on an infinite plane.  So as long as you don't level up to infinity before you get infinite xp, you're fine on that front.

EDIT: basically, what this means is that in order for Pun-Pun to have infinite xp (and thus infinite levels in every class, with infinite HD), all he needs to do is have a truly infinite reach, and his infinite stats.  Anything that does truly infinite damage with an infinite area (or targets an infinite number of creatures) will net him infinite xp.

Alternatively, anything that provides xp, as long as he can do a true infinite number of those actions (so in any finite amount of time, accomplishes a true infinite number of the actions) will net him infinite xp.
You can't take an infinite number of actions (see the discussion earlier in the thread for why that is so).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on April 07, 2012, 04:49:30 PM
there WILL be an infinite number of creatures with an NI CR on an infinite plane.
That is not so. Infinities can contain merely an infinite amount of some subset, such as an infinite amount of creatures with CR equal to or less than 1000.
Assuming an infinite universe, it does not have to contain an infinite amount of planets whose entire biomass is consisted of platypodes, to use a more familial example.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on April 07, 2012, 05:00:23 PM
@Bastian: that's where things like Whirlwind Attack come into play.  If you have truly infinite reach, you can attack an infinite number of creatures with a single action (you attack every creature within reach).

@Halinn: If you assume an infinite universe with infinite energy (otherwise it's not a true infinite universe), then the probability of anything occurring approaches 1.  You'd be right in that the probability is not 1, but it approaches 1.  So yes, there would be an infinite number of those planets, spaced infinitely far apart, and infinitely close together.  It gets weird.  The basic rule is that if there is an object that does not violate the universe's laws, then the probability that the object exists approaches 1 in a truly infinite universe.

As far as other planets exist, there's an infinite amount of energy in the universe.  It has to be located somewhere.  And taking the above rule into account, it is nearly impossible for there to exist a finite number of landmasses of finite size.  The only way for that to happen is for the entire rest of the infinite universe to be taken up by energy.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on April 07, 2012, 05:21:07 PM
Guys.
Divine Creation uses the Greater Create Object formula, but merely allows for magic items instead of just mundane.
You can get Greater Create Object to have no rest period for the creation up to 300gp.
Using this ability is a full-round without a rest period.
There are magic items worth less than 300gp.
Pun-Pun has copies of himself that he can give items to.
Pun-Pun has Arcane Generosity.
Pun-Pun has NI Full-round actions.

1) Full-round action, create Feather Token.
2) Readied standard action (move?), give token to Copy-Pun, gain 6XP
3) repeat steps 1&2 twenty-one million times all at once, become level 500, advancing every base class up, advance every PrC.

Since this is all happening at once, due to NI full-round actions and NI readied actions, this can actually be any level desired.

Pun-Pun has NI XP. Thus NI class levels. And can increase them to a NI extent as an Immediate Action with Celerity + Time Stop + Greater Celerity + etc. + etc. + etc. + et alli.

There is no way to gain True Infinite XP.
Any method of gaining XP would have to be defined in order to be awarded, you cannot hit infinite in any defined way.
The ways in which Pun-Pun hits TI for things is because of manipulating areas that are undefined.
XP has to be, must be, defined in order to be awarded, or else it cannot be awarded.
Infinite CL?
Only nigh infinite, so it won't kill a truly infinite amount of enemies.

An additional problem with killing infinite creatures is that you're too high ECL for them to grant any experience points. If you instead treat everything as a single encounter, modifying the CR accordingly, you will be too low ECL to gain any experience, or you will only gain one non-infinite sum.
This is my supporting point. CR =< ECL-6 or CR=> ECL+6 has no defined XP, thus you cannot say that you do gain it.
Even though the DMG basically states that the DM would have to Ad Hoc it in order to award it. But if you went with that, then:
A) It would be based on difficulty of being overcome. Pun-Pun had no difficulty = no XP.
B) If DM wanted to award, then the encounter must be quantified to be figured. Then would be figured. Then XP would be awarded.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on April 07, 2012, 05:28:42 PM
@Bastian: that's where things like Whirlwind Attack come into play.  If you have truly infinite reach, you can attack an infinite number of creatures with a single action (you attack every creature within reach).

@Halinn: If you assume an infinite universe with infinite energy (otherwise it's not a true infinite universe), then the probability of anything occurring approaches 1.  You'd be right in that the probability is not 1, but it approaches 1.  So yes, there would be an infinite number of those planets, spaced infinitely far apart, and infinitely close together.  It gets weird.  The basic rule is that if there is an object that does not violate the universe's laws, then the probability that the object exists approaches 1 in a truly infinite universe.

As far as other planets exist, there's an infinite amount of energy in the universe.  It has to be located somewhere.  And taking the above rule into account, it is nearly impossible for there to exist a finite number of landmasses of finite size.  The only way for that to happen is for the entire rest of the infinite universe to be taken up by energy.
The bolded part is the important thing here. An infinite plane could have a 'law' that stated that no creature naturally occuring there can have a CR above x, for instance.
In addition, an infinite universe can exist with finite energy, which would necessarily either be spread equally, and thus nearly nonexistant, or clumped. If the energy is clumped, it would be nothing on the scale of the universe, but could contain quite a lot locally. Clumping could occur from a law defining a limit on rate of expansion, and a non-infinite time frame from the clump's formation (which would come from a significant CP violation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP_violation)). Additionally, laws would not necessarily have to be universal in scale.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on April 07, 2012, 05:34:42 PM
@Bastian: that's where things like Whirlwind Attack come into play.  If you have truly infinite reach, you can attack an infinite number of creatures with a single action (you attack every creature within reach).

@Halinn: If you assume an infinite universe with infinite energy (otherwise it's not a true infinite universe), then the probability of anything occurring approaches 1.  You'd be right in that the probability is not 1, but it approaches 1.  So yes, there would be an infinite number of those planets, spaced infinitely far apart, and infinitely close together.  It gets weird.  The basic rule is that if there is an object that does not violate the universe's laws, then the probability that the object exists approaches 1 in a truly infinite universe.

As far as other planets exist, there's an infinite amount of energy in the universe.  It has to be located somewhere.  And taking the above rule into account, it is nearly impossible for there to exist a finite number of landmasses of finite size.  The only way for that to happen is for the entire rest of the infinite universe to be taken up by energy.
The bolded part is the important thing here. An infinite plane could have a 'law' that stated that no creature naturally occuring there can have a CR above x, for instance.
In addition, an infinite universe can exist with finite energy, which would necessarily either be spread equally, and thus nearly nonexistant, or clumped. If the energy is clumped, it would be nothing on the scale of the universe, but could contain quite a lot locally. Clumping could occur from a law defining a limit on rate of expansion, and a non-infinite time frame from the clump's formation (which would come from a significant CP violation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP_violation)). Additionally, laws would not necessarily have to be universal in scale.

... ya'know what?
Only Stephen Hawking should play Pun-Pun like that.
Let's keep this to the rules of D&D, and leave the Physics to the professionals.
Suddenly: Catgirls.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on April 07, 2012, 10:49:17 PM
@arias: yes, but that only works if you are actually at a higher level.  iirc, you only level up after an encounter ends.  But I suppose it might still not work.  Because...what is an encounter?  Would the encounter CR be the CR of the group of things you take out?  If so, that would be an infinite CR and.....no xp.  I already know about the NI xp thing, all I'm saying is that the way to get infinite xp is to have an action that grants xp and the capability of executing that an infinite amount of times in a finite amount of time.  That WILL yield infinite xp, as long as the action will always grant xp.  Basically, it's a defined amount of xp being granted an infinite amount of times.  Any discreet amount times infinity is infinity.

@Halinn: yes, yes, but there's no law that I know of against having an NI CR.  It's another assumption, on your part.  And besides, if there's a law in the universe against a creature with NI CR, then Pun-Pun cannot exist.  Because Pun-Pun has an NI CR.  Simply by existing, Pun-Pun says that there's not limit to your CR.  Also, if you take the base assumptions that the plane is infinite, then it does necessarily have an infinite amount of energy.  And with that, the probability that the plane has a finite amount of matter approaches 0.  It is not 0, yes, but it does approach 0.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on April 08, 2012, 09:24:40 AM
Just for fun, a roundabout way of getting NI experience: craft your own traps and disarm them. Their CR is based on damage dealt, so craft them with an arbitrary amount of damage for CR whatever. Then use your infinite disable device check to get past the trap. Experience!

@Halinn: yes, yes, but there's no law that I know of against having an NI CR.  It's another assumption, on your part.  And besides, if there's a law in the universe against a creature with NI CR, then Pun-Pun cannot exist.  Because Pun-Pun has an NI CR.  Simply by existing, Pun-Pun says that there's not limit to your CR.  Also, if you take the base assumptions that the plane is infinite, then it does necessarily have an infinite amount of energy.  And with that, the probability that the plane has a finite amount of matter approaches 0.  It is not 0, yes, but it does approach 0.
Okay, whatever. Still won't be infinite experience. At any point in time, you will only be defeating a finite CR. An infinite CR would grant you no experience. If you are defeating an infinite amount of creatures with CR close enough to Pun-Pun's ECL at once, the encounter level would be infinite as per DMG page 48
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on April 08, 2012, 11:41:59 AM
@arias: yes, but that only works if you are actually at a higher level.  iirc, you only level up after an encounter ends.  But I suppose it might still not work.  Because...what is an encounter?  Would the encounter CR be the CR of the group of things you take out?  If so, that would be an infinite CR and.....no xp.

So I guess the only way to get infinite xp is to find an action that automatically grants xp (regardless of your level or its CR), and somehow be able to do that action an infinite amount of times in a finite amount of time.  Dang, and I was so excited too.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on April 08, 2012, 12:00:24 PM
If you can find a way to make a skill check give experience directly, without it having to be specified how high a DC you're going for, you can get infinite xp. I do not believe it possible, but that is just about the only theoretical way I can see it being done.

Edit: can't believe I missed that. Pun-Pun has truly infinite gold, due to a week being spent on his profession check :D
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on April 08, 2012, 04:51:52 PM
can't believe I missed that. Pun-Pun has truly infinite gold, due to a week being spent on his profession check :D
Nice find. Added.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on May 31, 2012, 06:21:30 PM
Does anyone know of a way to do an infinite number of dice of damage? Note that d2 Crusader does not work since you are not actually doing an infinite number of dice, just rerolling one die continuously and getting extra damage each roll.

If so I think I have found a way to deal a higher order of infinity worth of damage. Specifically a Frostwing Virago's Frostbite Touch (Su) adds one's charisma bonus to each die of damage.

On a random side note, Divination Immunity (Ex) allows one's future moves in a game called xorvintaal to be completely unlearnable by divination or similar effects. Thus if Pun-pun started as a young adult true dragon with the xorvintaal template (it is free), It could ascend undetected assuming ascending isn't against the rules of the game/counts as a move in the game. The fluff sort of indicates that gaining power is part of the game but it also says there are an extremely complicated set of rules which it isn't telling us so for all we know ascending is against the rules and thus I don't think I'm likely going to add this to the list so I'm noting it here for posterity.

On a further side note, I have just changed Omniscience to be Infinite Knowledge and thus move it to the infinite section not the ability section since the fact that infinity minus infinity is undefined means that infinity does not necessarily equal everything.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on May 31, 2012, 08:22:55 PM
The omni trick is an infinite damage loop
... used for all those other goodies.
It'll do.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on May 31, 2012, 10:13:17 PM
The omni trick is an infinite damage loop
... used for all those other goodies.
It'll do.
Nice catch, I never even thought of considered it with infinite damage to get it to do infinite damage an infinite number of times, that renders Frostbite Touch (Su) rather useless. Now we've just got to check with someone good enough at math to know if that actually is a higher order infinity.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: AyeGill on June 01, 2012, 07:05:20 AM
If I'm reading your explanation correctly, no, that's not a higher-order infinity.
What you're doing would be infinity2
The smallest higher-order infinity would be 2infinity
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on June 04, 2012, 01:09:59 PM
If I'm reading your explanation correctly, no, that's not a higher-order infinity.
What you're doing would be infinity2
The smallest higher-order infinity would be 2infinity
Thank you for the help.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Mister Lamp on June 14, 2012, 01:29:06 PM
If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold.  :o

I think. I'm not 100% certain.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on June 14, 2012, 01:43:59 PM
If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold.  :o

He can already assume any shape of any size. In part because there are so many other shape-changers in the game, and in part because of his divine abilities.

So he is everyone and everything, and has merely chosen to "forget" this while allowing all of his selves to be independent (ignoring amalgam), Etc.

You thought WAY to small for Pun-Pun.

Heck, you thought to small for the Nut-Puns :)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Mister Lamp on June 14, 2012, 01:55:40 PM
If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold.  :o

He can already assume any shape of any size. In part because there are so many other shape-changers in the game, and in part because of his divine abilities.

So he is everyone and everything, and has merely chosen to "forget" this while allowing all of his selves to be independent (ignoring amalgam), Etc.

You thought WAY to small for Pun-Pun.

Heck, you thought to small for the Nut-Puns :)

I'm sorry, I'll do better.

Is there a thread to suggest strangest abilities Pun-Pun can get? because I found an interesting one.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on June 14, 2012, 05:30:02 PM
First post has a section for "Ridiculous abilities"
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on June 14, 2012, 05:36:29 PM
If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold.  :o

I think. I'm not 100% certain.
GAAHHH !!!!

(conspiracy voice) pun-pun is everywhere, and cute.
 :p
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on June 22, 2012, 03:39:59 PM
Simplifying a nigh-infinite caster level: Suffer The Flesh (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=6237) uncapped with Reserves of Strength. Then Pun-Pun won't be dependent on having the greater consumptive fields killing stuff.

Edit: I read up on Pain Mastery, the Omniscifier trick and Bellflower Tattoo. How is Pun-Pun using the strength bonus from Pain Mastery with the charisma-based Bellflower Tattoo?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on June 22, 2012, 10:12:42 PM
Void Disciple's Void Release (or something like that; it's in the "Any" category of the X stat to Y bonus thread) lets you use your highest ability modifier in place of any other ability modifier. Str is highest, so use that instead of Cha.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on June 22, 2012, 11:07:55 PM
I see. Thank you.

Looking at the Void Disciple, it can also be used to get truly infinite skill ranks, with the Moment of Clarity ability.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on June 23, 2012, 01:55:07 AM
Pun-Pun will have to sacrifice his immunity to Con damage in order to use Suffer the Flesh. He probably gives a number of fucks evenly divisible by all nonzero real numbers.

Also, Suffer the Flesh doesn't grant infinite or NI CL. I should've opened with that. Your CL scales at half the rate of the maximum Con damage you can take, and while RoS does let you exceed the hard cap of maximum 10 points of Con, it doesn't let you exceed your caster level because it isn't a "level-fixed limit".
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on June 23, 2012, 11:48:32 AM
Why wouldn't caster level be a level-fixed limit? Under the assumption that it is, Pun-Pun can take NI Con damage (after dropping his immunity to it for a round) for NI CL.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on June 23, 2012, 11:57:13 AM
The text makes clear that "level-fixed limit" refers to the cap on the maximum caster level that can benefit you. I'd actually argue that your interpretation makes more sense for parsing that phrase, but you can't have it both ways, because they're separate rules.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on June 23, 2012, 01:06:04 PM
Of course, the simplest way to show that Pun-Pun has NI CL is the fact that he has NI levels, of which quite a lot can be in classes that improve caster levels across the line. Also bloodlines.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on June 23, 2012, 02:08:46 PM
Oh, agreed. If absolutely nothing else, he can kill all of the encounters at once, gaining all of the levels as a consequence.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on August 10, 2012, 08:00:24 PM
We ought to have found this sooner. I was looking through the X stat to Y bonus handbook and found this:
Quote from: Complete Champion
Sanctified Spell (Ex): Once per day, you can increase your effective caster level by an amount equal to your Intelligence bonus (if any) for 1 round.

Sanctified One of Wee Jas ability. Make that permanent, and bam! Infinite caster level. The holy grail of Pun-Pun ability. With that, we can indirectly get a bunch more infinites.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: sirpercival on August 10, 2012, 08:26:41 PM
We ought to have found this sooner. I was looking through the X stat to Y bonus handbook and found this:
Quote from: Complete Champion
Sanctified Spell (Ex): Once per day, you can increase your effective caster level by an amount equal to your Intelligence bonus (if any) for 1 round.

Sanctified One of Wee Jas ability. Make that permanent, and bam! Infinite caster level. The holy grail of Pun-Pun ability. With that, we can indirectly get a bunch more infinites.

 :drool
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Quillwraith on August 10, 2012, 09:28:09 PM
We ought to have found this sooner. I was looking through the X stat to Y bonus handbook and found this:
Quote from: Complete Champion
Sanctified Spell (Ex): Once per day, you can increase your effective caster level by an amount equal to your Intelligence bonus (if any) for 1 round.

Sanctified One of Wee Jas ability. Make that permanent, and bam! Infinite caster level. The holy grail of Pun-Pun ability. With that, we can indirectly get a bunch more infinites.
Upvoted.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on September 24, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
I see. Thank you.

Looking at the Void Disciple, it can also be used to get truly infinite skill ranks, with the Moment of Clarity ability.
We ought to have found this sooner. I was looking through the X stat to Y bonus handbook and found this:
Quote from: Complete Champion
Sanctified Spell (Ex): Once per day, you can increase your effective caster level by an amount equal to your Intelligence bonus (if any) for 1 round.

Sanctified One of Wee Jas ability. Make that permanent, and bam! Infinite caster level. The holy grail of Pun-Pun ability. With that, we can indirectly get a bunch more infinites.
Added.

Edit: I'll add all the things that the infinite caster level revelation affect in a day or two.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on September 24, 2012, 08:00:17 PM
Do we have any way of converting a caster level directly to a manifester level? Since we're using ML for our telepathy and mindsight, it would be nice.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: sirpercival on September 24, 2012, 08:02:26 PM
Do we have any way of converting a caster level directly to a manifester level? Since we're using ML for our telepathy and mindsight, it would be nice.

Mental Pinnacle.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on September 24, 2012, 09:06:23 PM
Psiotheurgy on all 8 schools lets us make our caster level and ML stack for the purpose of casting all of these things.
Besides, archivist + chameleon casting debatably lets us do this anyway.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on September 26, 2012, 08:35:39 PM
ninja'd

Yeah, the Psiotheugist feat(s) in Dragon #349.
I have a suspicion that those feats don't cover
every type of psi power, just almost all of them.
Infinite ML = Infinite powerpoints.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on September 26, 2012, 08:49:29 PM
Infinite ML = Infinite powerpoints.
Technically we still have no way of getting infinite true ML with this, just for the powers.
This being said, M/P transparency, or at the very least, magic mantle can let us just directly use the infinite caster level as a manifester level (I think, been a while since I looked close at this).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on September 26, 2012, 09:10:42 PM
Also, Pun-Pun has infinite PP because he has an infinitely high stat (whichever one he needs to use).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on September 26, 2012, 11:28:45 PM
(click to show/hide)

Why didn't we do one of the arcane/divine changing KotW + MFK loops? Too vague? Too many Southern Magician arguments?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Haakon on November 22, 2012, 07:31:55 AM
It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero.

Aleph zero is essentially the size of the set of integers.
Aleph one is just taking the powerset of the set of integers.
And so on.
Of course, you can take the Aleph Aleph.
Or the Aleph Aleph Aleph.
AND SO ON.

Some mathematicians like to powergame their numbers.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on November 23, 2012, 04:34:17 PM
 :(  ... I'm still failing the epic Know-Math check.


Or  :D you need a super-epic Aid Another check.

Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Quillwraith on November 24, 2012, 09:41:28 AM
Count whole #s like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... forever.
That's Aleph(0) long, but countable. You can't finish, but you don't need to skip any.

Count decimal #s forever (in order). No matter how you list them, there's some in-between the ones you counted:
If I count "1.0, 1.1, " the I skipped 1.05. If I count that, I've missed 1.02. Etc.
That's Aleph(1) long, and "uncountable".

With Aleph(0), it'd take infinite(Aleph(0)) time to reach the end.
With Aleph(0), it'd take aleph(0) time to get from 1 to 2, and reaching the end takes even longer than infinite.
We call that longer than infinite amount Aleph(1).



It's been proven (don't ask how), that
Aleph(0) ^ Aleph(0) = Aleph(1)


There's also aleph 2, and, 3, and every other number, but I don't understand those. Ask a mathematician.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on November 24, 2012, 02:25:27 PM

With Aleph(0), it'd take infinite(Aleph(0)) time to reach the end.
With Aleph(0), it'd take aleph(0) time to get from 1 to 2, and reaching the end takes even longer than infinite.
We call that longer than infinite amount Aleph(1).

hmm ... Pun-pun has infinite actions, and can be on or create
a Time=0 plane like Far Realms and/or arcane Genesis.
maybe :???

The fluff/descriptive text d&d timeline includes a
beginning, but I don't recall any specific end time.
probably not  :???
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: sirpercival on November 24, 2012, 02:30:44 PM
Pun-Pun can reach Aleph(1) relatively easily, using Body Outside Body.  Infinite Pun-Puns each doing infinite things = Aleph(1).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 03, 2012, 08:50:00 PM
I don't see anything in the rules preventing Pun-Pun from making a Belt of Strength +infinity, and giving that away to get infinite experience from the Arcane Generosity (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/magister.shtml) ability. Afterwards, Pun-Pun will need to rest for an infinite amount of time, of course, but that's easily handled by just making a fresh clone that doesn't have to.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: sirpercival on December 03, 2012, 09:25:02 PM
I don't see anything in the rules preventing Pun-Pun from making a Belt of Strength +infinity, and giving that away to get infinite experience from the Arcane Generosity (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/magister.shtml) ability. Afterwards, Pun-Pun will need to rest for an infinite amount of time, of course, but that's easily handled by just making a fresh clone that doesn't have to.
Pun-Pun doesn't have infinite experience to craft such an item in the first place?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on December 03, 2012, 10:37:26 PM
The fact that Pun-Pun can create anything ever with no limit thanks to hisher divine ranks.  So the question: if you spend no xp, but create an item that takes xp to craft, do you get no xp from this ability?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 04, 2012, 01:49:45 AM
Could we just Wish for such a belt?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 04, 2012, 02:12:35 PM
The fact that Pun-Pun can create anything ever with no limit thanks to hisher divine ranks.  So the question: if you spend no xp, but create an item that takes xp to craft, do you get no xp from this ability?
As far as I can tell, XP cost is a rules term, rather than a subjective term. For TO purposes, I believe that you do get the experience.

Edit: blah, stupid rules preventing Pun-Pun from level infinity (so far!)
Quote from: PHB page 58
A character can advance only one level at a time. If, for some extraordinary reason, a character’s XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 04, 2012, 07:31:52 PM
How do we define "adventure"? If we could create some sort of infinitely chained Wish spell to produce an infinite number of such items simultaneously, it then becomes a matter of giving them all away infinitely quickly, each given away separately. I think they still have to be +Infinity items, though, to ensure you continue gaining XP.

Could we use Pun-Pun's infinite Int score and infinite skill checks in conjunction with Metamagic Effect to gain an infinite number of full-round actions with Twin Spell and Greater Celerity? Though I think that requires truly infinite spell slots or truly infinite maximum spell level, if it works at all. One could then use these infinite actions to cast infinite Wishes and then to transport each somewhere else, or cut directly to the chase and chain together infinite wishes with basically the same mechanism. Pun-pun could even complete entire adventures in an infinitely small amount of time, simplifying the need for separate adventures.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on December 04, 2012, 08:11:33 PM
Well, Pun-Pun has truly infinite spell slots thanks to truly infinite ability scores.

As for giving them away: Pun-Pun does have infinite followers.

As for separate adventures, the question becomes: does she have truly infinite number of actions (meaning infinite actions in a defined time)?  Otherwise I think this would require each giving to be counted as an adventure even though they are all being handed out simultaneously.  I don't think that would fly, so it has to be infinite actions.  I don't know how those spells and effect would work, so maybe GC would work?  I don't know.  Pun-Pun does have infinite spell slots, but does she have infinite spell levels?  I'm not sure how that would work, but as long as she has infinite feats she has infinite level spells (Improved Spell Capacity has no limitation on level, only on ability score).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 04, 2012, 09:30:58 PM
Only having nigh infinite feats means only having nigh infinite spell levels. Unless we can get a CL dependent amount of clones (whose xp gains would go towards the main body), I think this method is insufficient to get level infinity.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 04, 2012, 10:32:15 PM
I think you need either infinite slots or infinite max level. If you have the former, you can simply cast an infinite number of twinned (once) GCs, each of which will provide you with 1 action with which to cast the next in the sequence, and the other of which is stored for use with your actual shenanigans. If you have the latter, you would cast a single GC that has been twinned an infinite number of times (if you can do that).

I've realized, though, that this only gets you to arbitrarily many actions (something we already had), since you still have to actually cast it. Could we do something with traps or something similarly automated?

EDIT: Wait, you can't use a full-round action to take a swift or immediate action, so you can't stack actions that way. Balls. You'd need a way of converting them into additional swift actions (some way of using a standard action to gain a turn attempt, plus Divine Impetus?)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Amechra on December 04, 2012, 10:40:57 PM
Pun-Pun actually has infinite essentia capacity; the Incandescent Champion gets a class feature that let's them increase the essentia capacity of one of their essentia receptacles by their charisma.

Also, Pun-Pun has infinite turn-attempts; he doesn't need to be able to generate more.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 04, 2012, 10:52:00 PM
So, could Pun-Pun create a magic trap that casts Greater Celerity on her in response to a command word, and two magic traps that cast Greater Celerity on her each time Greater Celerity is cast within some defined area? The first one sets off a cascade, and the other two each trigger each other (since they can't trigger themselves, I think, even with an instantaneous automatic reset).

I don't think Pun-Pun can ever terminate the turn she takes as a consequence, but she can jump forward by 1 round (via Timeless Step) each time she wants to advance time. Also, once she does this, she can splinter off clones who are not subject to the infinite turn, and who retain the infinite experience, etc.

EDIT: Hah, you're right. So she has infinitenigh-infinite swift actions, by Divine Impetus. SUBEDIT: Which I now realize is in the OP. Herp a derp.

EDIT: Drat, that's not an available trigger. We'll have to get a bit more Goldbergian (http://i.imgur.com/fbaZ4.png) - we need a trigger trap that casts mage hand on a lever, which triggers a trap that casts mage hand on a second lever that is the trigger for two traps (something we're never explicitly forbidden to do), the first of which casts Greater Celerity, and the second of which pulls the first lever again. The levers in question all have an instantaneous reset, and may be replaced by other triggers if you find infinitely-fast levers to be implausible.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Amechra on December 04, 2012, 11:17:47 PM
By the way, due to Psycarnum Infusion, Pun-Pun has infinite reach.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on December 06, 2012, 12:04:10 AM
Pun-Pun actually has infinite essentia capacity; the Incandescent Champion gets a class feature that let's them increase the essentia capacity of one of their essentia receptacles by their charisma.

Also, Pun-Pun has infinite turn-attempts; he doesn't need to be able to generate more.
Pun-Pun does not have infinite essentia. All that ability does is make so that if he had infinite essentia, he could invest an infinite amount of it in an soulmeld/ability.

The fact that Pun-Pun can create anything ever with no limit thanks to hisher divine ranks.  So the question: if you spend no xp, but create an item that takes xp to craft, do you get no xp from this ability?
That would not create an infinite amount anyways, only a nigh-infinite amount.

Pun-Pun can reach Aleph(1) relatively easily, using Body Outside Body.  Infinite Pun-Puns each doing infinite things = Aleph(1).
Except each Pun-pun could only do a finite number of things. And no that wouldn't produce aleph(1) even if it did work, Aleph(1) is at minimum 2^infinity, not infinity squared (I made that mistake before as well).

Nice point about Body Outside Body, adding.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: sirpercival on December 06, 2012, 12:30:05 AM
A fun thing.  Pun-Pun can use his infinite CL to cast Stone Metamorphosis (Und) on the entirety of the Plane of Earth.  Whee!
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on December 06, 2012, 03:46:34 PM
Wouldn't all the Pun-pun Clones share his desire to get to infinity?
Kill the infinite # of almost Infinite almost Puns.


Essentia ... hmm ... the prc Incarnate Champ has a +Cha mod
to the amount of ~essentia it can invest for 1 round , 1/day.
Pun-puns Cha mod is infinite, right.
Pull more uses of the ability from flowing time / time travel.
Maybe combine with Psycarnum Infusion.

Necrocarnate gets X essentia for the # of dead things,
and Pun's got the slightly faster version.  Couldn't he
just make a small universe over "there" and kill everything
then yank all the essentia over?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on December 06, 2012, 03:50:00 PM
So Pun-pun can create an intelligent magic item that has his abilities using Nybor's Psychic Imprint (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041215a). However, I can't seem to find anyway to link intelligent item abilities scores with price so this may not help much. If anyone can find anything, please tell me.

On an unrelated note, I have managed to achieve an infinite number of non-gimped bodies, based off an extension of the Body Outside Body trick (see the spoiler below the listing in the OP for more details).

Edit:
Pun-Pun actually has infinite essentia capacity; the Incandescent Champion gets a class feature that let's them increase the essentia capacity of one of their essentia receptacles by their charisma.
By the way, due to Psycarnum Infusion
I've got to go but I'll definitely look into that during the weekend (it sounds promising).
edit2: Added
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: sirpercival on December 06, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
Derp.  Infinite essentia via Reserves of Strength Soul Boon.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 07, 2012, 01:11:53 AM
So about the Celerity engine... is that only nigh-infinite, as well? I'm not really up on this whole infinity thing, but it seems like it has to fire off an infinite number of instances of the spell in any finite period of time. If I did it right, it's the equivalent of telling a computer that takes no time to perform a calculation to execute an infinite loop.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Amechra on December 07, 2012, 03:14:27 AM
Allow me to repeat my earlier post:

By the way, due to Psycarnum Infusion Infinite Essentia through Soul Boon, Pun-Pun has infinite reach.

He also has an infinite% miss chance.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on December 07, 2012, 04:17:35 PM
So Pun-pun can create an intelligent magic item that has his abilities using Nybor's Psychic Imprint (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041215a). However, I can't seem to find anyway to link intelligent item abilities scores with price so this may not help much. If anyone can find anything, please tell me.

On an unrelated note, I have managed to achieve an infinite number of non-gimped bodies, based off an extension of the Body Outside Body trick (see the spoiler below the listing in the OP for more details).

hmm ... Pun targets his Super-BOB and gets an item with: 
"(gaining the personality, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, alignment, general memories, and languages known of the target creature) "
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 07, 2012, 07:58:00 PM
Will experience gained by a BOB clone go to main Pun-Pun? If so, just have each of the infinite clones give a magic item (xp cost above zero) to one of your followers. Infinite xp spread out over infinite encounters.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Quillwraith on December 07, 2012, 08:43:09 PM
Aleph(1) = 2^aleph(0) ?


[badly explained ideas]
get a two wide, aleph(0) long line of BOB clones with Jovoc auras. Stand at one end of the line, have the pair of clones at the other end hit each other.
In a finite line, the pair at the begging of it would each damage the next pair, so those take double the original damage. The 3rd pair take twice that, and so on. At the end of an infinitely long line of these, the damage will have been doubled aleph(0) times, for  result of Aleph(1).
Technically, an infinite line can't have 2 ends, so each pair has to hit each other, rather than only the first.
Use the omnicificer trick to turn the Aleph(1) damage into other stats.
[/badly explained ideas]

I/we better clarify this later. Just thinking aloud.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 07, 2012, 09:54:45 PM
Sidethought from Quillwraith's idea: assuming that Pun-Pun didn't use one of his many ways to not die from damage, would Aleph(1) damage kill her through her Aleph(0) hit points?

Also, for the infinite spell resistance listed on first post, a simpler method is the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellResistance.htm).

Would it be worth listing her +infinity weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm) and armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm)?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 08, 2012, 01:06:22 AM
The latter two do require RoS. I still maintain that strict RAW prevents that from helping, but that varies from everyone else's mileage.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Quillwraith on December 08, 2012, 10:24:03 AM
Sidethought from Quillwraith's idea: assuming that Pun-Pun didn't use one of his many ways to not die from damage, would Aleph(1) damage kill her through her Aleph(0) hit points?
It should. Aleph(1) > Aleph(0).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on December 08, 2012, 07:04:07 PM
get a two wide, aleph(0) long line of BOB clones with Jovoc auras. Stand at one end of the line, have the pair of clones at the other end hit each other.
In a finite line, the pair at the begging of it would each damage the next pair, so those take double the original damage. The 3rd pair take twice that, and so on. At the end of an infinitely long line of these, the damage will have been doubled aleph(0) times, for  result of Aleph(1).
Technically, an infinite line can't have 2 ends, so each pair has to hit each other, rather than only the first.
Use the omnicificer trick to turn the Aleph(1) damage into other stats.

Assuming this works, this gives us any aleph we want because Aleph (2) = 2^Aleph (1), etc. etc.
We actually couldn't restrict it to Aleph (1) because at each point in the line, it is sent backwards, which includes the 'end' where it is Aleph (1) already. Due to this, and the fact that the Jovoc aura's trigger instantly, this should give us Aleph (NI).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 08, 2012, 08:43:31 PM
We actually couldn't restrict it to Aleph (1) because at each point in the line, it is sent backwards, which includes the 'end' where it is Aleph (1) already. Due to this, and the fact that the Jovoc aura's trigger instantly, this should give us Aleph (NI).
I'm not knowledgeable enough about mathematics to know if we'd actually stack up like that, but assuming it's true, wouldn't we get Aleph(Aleph(0))?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 09, 2012, 01:11:03 AM
get a two wide, aleph(0) long line of BOB clones with Jovoc auras. Stand at one end of the line, have the pair of clones at the other end hit each other.
In a finite line, the pair at the begging of it would each damage the next pair, so those take double the original damage. The 3rd pair take twice that, and so on. At the end of an infinitely long line of these, the damage will have been doubled aleph(0) times, for  result of Aleph(1).
Technically, an infinite line can't have 2 ends, so each pair has to hit each other, rather than only the first.
Use the omnicificer trick to turn the Aleph(1) damage into other stats.

Assuming this works, this gives us any aleph we want because Aleph (2) = 2^Aleph (1), etc. etc.
Hmm... Existing planes only contain, at best, infinite volume. This could pose problems for arranging our clones if we wanted to chain upward through separate iterations this way, since we have to create our own planes and to do that with Genesis requires getting the casting time down far enough that you can cast a number of them per turn equal to 1 power of Aleph less than what you're trying to get your damage output to be equal to. Fortunately that works out to be exactly the power of Aleph you're starting with, but you need a way to convert that directly into actions. If, and this is a big if, the Celerity Engine works, you still only get up to Aleph(0) with it, and there's no way I know of to hook them back into themselves since traps don't use actions (to my knowledge), and I'm not sure there's a way to make a Von Neumann Trap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_spacecraft).

We actually couldn't restrict it to Aleph (1) because at each point in the line, it is sent backwards, which includes the 'end' where it is Aleph (1) already. Due to this, and the fact that the Jovoc aura's trigger instantly, this should give us Aleph (NI).
However, if this is true, then what I just said only applies to jumping from one... power of powers(?) of aleph to the next. There's a term for this, I just cannot for the life of me remember it. Still, somebody smarter than me will be along shortly, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on December 10, 2012, 01:34:13 AM
We actually couldn't restrict it to Aleph (1) because at each point in the line, it is sent backwards, which includes the 'end' where it is Aleph (1) already. Due to this, and the fact that the Jovoc aura's trigger instantly, this should give us Aleph (NI).
I'm not knowledgeable enough about mathematics to know if we'd actually stack up like that, but assuming it's true, wouldn't we get Aleph(Aleph(0))?
I don't know enough about this maths to be sure, but doesn't the fact that each process is triggered mean that it can't reach truly infinite? If you have a magic computer repeat an action with no delay, but only 1 at a time, it can only have triggered a defined (but unknowable) number of times. E.G. the number move actions for meta-magic-less Greater Celerity via Alter Reality looping would be NI.



Let's look a the Omnicifier's original damage trick, than go from there. I think circular looping may be the key to this.
A thought occurs: incorporeal creatures can share each others space. Even if they can't, we can use living wall's amalgam to do it, probably.

Thus, Aleph (0) clones in one space. If each performs the clone spawning routine, we have Aleph (0) ^ 2 clones.
This repeats to Aleph (0) ^3 clones.
Via repetition, we thus have Aleph (0) ^ (Number of repetitions we can have) clones. Via input of damage and use of aura's, we can convert this to stats.

Aleph (0) ML temporal acceleration gives us Aleph (0) rounds to do this in, which means we can thus have (Current Aleph) ^ (Current Aleph) clones, and thus, via AOE damage, stats.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 10, 2012, 02:06:07 AM
Hm, temporal acceleration is probably a much more efficient mechanism than Greater Celerity. Unfortunately, while I'm pretty sure we have to agree that infinite looping produces a true infinity (this is how the Omniscificer does it - through infinite looping of a finite amount of damage), progress at that rate doesn't jack us up to the next degree of Aleph, since (I think) we're only ever taking Aleph(whatever) to an arbitrarily high power, rather than an arbitrarily large base to the Aleph(whatever) power. Unless we can automate it, I think. Which I just now realized is a problem with hitting level infinity - we're going to need to automate entire adventures so they execute infinitely many times.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on December 10, 2012, 05:35:31 AM
Hm, temporal acceleration is probably a much more efficient mechanism than Greater Celerity. Unfortunately, while I'm pretty sure we have to agree that infinite looping produces a true infinity (this is how the Omniscificer does it - through infinite looping of a finite amount of damage), progress at that rate doesn't jack us up to the next degree of Aleph, since (I think) we're only ever taking Aleph(whatever) to an arbitrarily high power, rather than an arbitrarily large base to the Aleph(whatever) power. Unless we can automate it, I think. Which I just now realized is a problem with hitting level infinity - we're going to need to automate entire adventures so they execute infinitely many times.

I think you misunderstand. To reach Aleph (1), you need 2^ Aleph (0)
I am providing a clone output equal to (Initial Clone input) * (Number of clones produced per process) ^ (Number of duplications).
Since we can input at least 2 clones, if not Aleph (0), and we can always duplicate at least once in a round, due to arbitrary action numbers, and we have Aleph (0) rounds due to temporal acceleration, the process is:
Let X be > or = 2, and Y = Pun-Pun's current Aleph of caster level (e.g. Aleph (0)), Z = psuedo-round number,
Have X clones. Each of these clones uses temporal acceleration, and once every turn performs the process to produce Y un-gimped clones. Each Un-Gimped clone uses temporal acceleration and once every turn performs the process to produce Y un-gimped clones.

Thus, if we use > to represent a pseudo-round passing:
X clones > X * Y clones > X * Y^2 clones >>>>>> X * Y ^ Z clones, and since we have Y rounds, therefore Z = Y, thus:
X * (Y^Y), where Y equals our current aleph.

Aleph (0) ^ Aleph (0) = Aleph (1), I believe. And we can repeat this with our new Aleph. And with that new aleph, etc. etc.

Unrelated, but amazing:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 10, 2012, 12:08:36 PM
Yeah, but the problem is that we actually have to construct and execute an infinite sequence of decisions when we say that we're doing something some number of times every round for Aleph(0) rounds. I might be completely misunderstanding it, but I think it's the same reason why you can't go from NI of something to Aleph(0) just by saying so. Remove the decision-making, though, and it's no longer arbitrary whether the cycle continues at a given iteration, and you can therefore actually take limits.

Can we figure out a way to automate the production of clones in a way that still fundamentally ties it to a current statistic? If I read it correctly, traps are fixed at Aleph(0) unless you can automate trap production.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on December 10, 2012, 03:58:23 PM
Yeah, but the problem is that we actually have to construct and execute an infinite sequence of decisions when we say that we're doing something some number of times every round for Aleph(0) rounds. I might be completely misunderstanding it, but I think it's the same reason why you can't go from NI of something to Aleph(0) just by saying so. Remove the decision-making, though, and it's no longer arbitrary whether the cycle continues at a given iteration, and you can therefore actually take limits.

Can we figure out a way to automate the production of clones in a way that still fundamentally ties it to a current statistic? If I read it correctly, traps are fixed at Aleph(0) unless you can automate trap production.

AFAIK, the reason why linear decision making can never reach an Aleph is that repeating a process a non-infinite times per iteration for a non-infinite amount of time can at most give uncountable, arbitrarily large values (given the delay = 0), as opposed to infinites. Actions are limited in that you must perform them one after the other.

The reason you can't go from NI to Aleph (0) on, say, the Imp of Cania is that:
If the imp of Cania went to a timeless plane, did it's trick for ever, and came back, it would only have performed the trick an uncountable number of times. You can't reach Aleph (0) by waiting through time, as you have always spent a countable number of turns there.

However, my Pun-Pun gets around this by having a known amount of time, namely Aleph (0). Assuming we perform each spawning loop at least once per round, which we can, we will thus have an iteration number equal to or greater than the number of rounds.
(Input) ^ 2 ^ (Iteration Number)


About your other points:
Tying clone production to a statistic kills the process. By tying clone production to each clone (because remember, when we split it doesn't keep magic items), 2 is to the power of the round variable.
By tying it to a statistic, it would stay at (Input) + (Clones per use) * (Rounds). This is not nearly high enough.

Your traps are not Aleph (0). They are only NI; you are dividing by zero, which doesn't reach true infinities.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 10, 2012, 06:44:58 PM
Thus, Aleph (0) clones in one space. If each performs the clone spawning routine, we have Aleph (0) ^ 2 clones.
This repeats to Aleph (0) ^3 clones.
Via repetition, we thus have Aleph (0) ^ (Number of repetitions we can have) clones. Via input of damage and use of aura's, we can convert this to stats.

Aleph (0) ML temporal acceleration gives us Aleph (0) rounds to do this in, which means we can thus have (Current Aleph) ^ (Current Aleph) clones, and thus, via AOE damage, stats.
Aleph(0)^n = Aleph(0). We need 2^Aleph(0) to reach Aleph(1).

Also, temporal acceleration can only give us NI rounds, since we have to choose an amount of times we augment it.

Which I just now realized is a problem with hitting level infinity - we're going to need to automate entire adventures so they execute infinitely many times.
Body Outside Body (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-arcane--55/body-outside-body--454/) gives us an infinite amount of clones. Have each of those make a magic item with their divine ability and give it one of your followers that hasn't yet gotten an item. Aleph(0) separate encounters each giving some amount of experience through your magister template power.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on December 11, 2012, 10:26:14 PM
Thus, Aleph (0) clones in one space. If each performs the clone spawning routine, we have Aleph (0) ^ 2 clones.
This repeats to Aleph (0) ^3 clones.
Via repetition, we thus have Aleph (0) ^ (Number of repetitions we can have) clones. Via input of damage and use of aura's, we can convert this to stats.

Aleph (0) ML temporal acceleration gives us Aleph (0) rounds to do this in, which means we can thus have (Current Aleph) ^ (Current Aleph) clones, and thus, via AOE damage, stats.
Aleph(0)^n = Aleph(0). We need 2^Aleph(0) to reach Aleph(1).

Also, temporal acceleration can only give us NI rounds, since we have to choose an amount of times we augment it.

Augmenting is not something we have to do multiple times per use of a power. Augmenting is: I spend X extra power points, and the power says for every Y extra power points spent something extra is added on. In this case:
(X = Aleph (0))/(y=4)*(1 round) = Aleph (0) Extra Rounds.

Aleph (0) ^ Aleph (0) is, indeed, not = Aleph (0). It is equal to Aleph (1).
However, if that isn't simple enough for you, just use two starting clones. Then you have 2 ^ Aleph (0).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on December 12, 2012, 01:42:07 PM
First off, it would be x*y, not x/y, but the math ends up the same, being aleph(0)*(1round/4PP)=aleph(0).

But that's not the issue.  The issue is that in those aleph(0) rounds, each one is taken discreetly, which means you have an NI number of rounds taken, not I rounds taken.  If you could automate it, where the first round has the second happen simultaneously, and so on, then you would have taken aleph(0) rounds in the span of 1 round, rather than continuing indefinitely in the same round.  The issue we're having is that we can't seem to get an infinite loop to happen, and that's what's needed.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 12, 2012, 02:27:13 PM
Augmenting is not something we have to do multiple times per use of a power. Augmenting is: I spend X extra power points, and the power says for every Y extra power points spent something extra is added on. In this case:
(X = Aleph (0))/(y=4)*(1 round) = Aleph (0) Extra Rounds.
You can't choose to treat infinity as a number in saying that you choose to spend infinite power points on a power. In the same way, you can't claim that you have truly infinite swift actions from infinite turnings etc.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 12, 2012, 03:13:28 PM
Augmenting is not something we have to do multiple times per use of a power. Augmenting is: I spend X extra power points, and the power says for every Y extra power points spent something extra is added on. In this case:
(X = Aleph (0))/(y=4)*(1 round) = Aleph (0) Extra Rounds.
You can't choose to treat infinity as a number in saying that you choose to spend infinite power points on a power. In the same way, you can't claim that you have truly infinite swift actions from infinite turnings etc.
I think you can do the first because it's a single decision (you don't augment by 1 pp, then another, and so on, you just augment all at once and you can spend whatever you like, subject to the usual caps). The second can't be done because it requires an infinite number of separate decisions, and saying you're going to do it infinitely many times is just shorthand. At least as I understand it.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on December 12, 2012, 03:43:28 PM
Derp.  Infinite essentia via Reserves of Strength Soul Boon.
I'm hesitant to include Reserves of Strength (as the interpretation is extremely dubious) and it doesn't do anything more than Psycarnum Infusion feat + Incandescent Champion's Incarnum Overload(Ex).
So about the Celerity engine... is that only nigh-infinite, as well? I'm not really up on this whole infinity thing, but it seems like it has to fire off an infinite number of instances of the spell in any finite period of time. If I did it right, it's the equivalent of telling a computer that takes no time to perform a calculation to execute an infinite loop.
I have to look into this.
He also has an infinite% miss chance.
Which ability or soulmeld does that come from?

As for all these attempts to reach Aleph(1), I'll have to look into them. Sorry this is taking so long but I have been very busy.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 12, 2012, 08:42:30 PM
By the way, in case people have problems with different "sizes" of infinity, this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elvOZm0d4H0) might help to explain how that works. It doesn't go into aleph numbers, but it does explain countable vs. uncountable infinities.

edit: frankly, I don't understand any of it beyond Aleph(1), and I am not sure that 2^Aleph(n) = Aleph(n+1) for cases other than Aleph(0)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on December 13, 2012, 12:10:30 AM
First off, it would be x*y, not x/y, but the math ends up the same, being aleph(0)*(1round/4PP)=aleph(0).

X clones start, and multiply their number of clones by aleph (0) each round. This is equal to X * (Aleph (0) ^ (number of rounds)).

(Z = 0) X >(Z=1) X * Y >(Z=2) X * Y * Y ..... etc. clearly shows that the number is = X * (y^Z)
How is this hard to understand?

Also, your point about rounds is illogical.
Quote
But that's not the issue.  The issue is that in those aleph(0) rounds, each one is taken discreetly, which means you have an NI number of rounds taken, not I rounds taken.
After the Temporal Acceleration goes up, you have Aleph (0) round to take actions in. You agree to this.

You say that because I have to make decisions about each round, a countable number of psuedo-rounds would have passed. Yes?
There's two ways of resolving this. One is to have each clone make their pants into a 1/round Aleph (0) CL BOB trap, which should satisfy you. The other is to take that because we only make a finite amount of decisions each round, it is possible (but it takes Aleph (0) time, which we have).

And therein lines what I have been saying. You cannot reach Aleph (0) by repeating something for a long time, because you don't have Aleph (0) rounds. The universe might not even exist for longer than that. But by using Temporal Acceleration, we do have Aleph (0) rounds.

So:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

By the way, in case people have problems with different "sizes" of infinity, this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elvOZm0d4H0) might help to explain how that works. It doesn't go into aleph numbers, but it does explain countable vs. uncountable infinities.

edit: frankly, I don't understand any of it beyond Aleph(1), and I am not sure that 2^Aleph(n) = Aleph(n+1) for cases other than Aleph(0)

Cantor proved that there were different sizes of infinity via a method which works on any set. The method boiled down to X is a proper subset of Y, therefore Y > X (but not equal to). This works for any Aleph.

I forget how a power set exactly proved that Y > X though, so dunno.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on December 13, 2012, 01:22:28 AM
My point about that was unit canceling.  You have x=(1/4) rounds per power point, and y=aleph(0) power points.  Thus, to get unit canceling right, instead of x/y, it's x*y.  x/y is rounds/(pp^2), and x*y is rounds.  It was a minor nitpick, and unit canceling is one of those things that drives me nuts.

Your second part is basically what I was trying to say.  However, I don't think it works that by having an infinite number of additional rounds in a single round we can do it.  I don't think anyways.  I could be wrong, this is the YBIYBI section after all.  I think it would be best if we can come up with a way to make all of those "rounds" happen at once instead of discreetly, that way there's no question about it.  As it is, they require just as much decision as anything else, so we end up with merely NI levels, which we already had.

And we don't care about stats.  We already have infinite stats.  We care about xp and thus levels now.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 13, 2012, 03:21:19 PM
Aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall, aleph(0) bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Scottzar on December 13, 2012, 03:49:56 PM
However, I don't think it works that by having an infinite number of additional rounds in a single round we can do it.  I don't think anyways.  I could be wrong, this is the YBIYBI section after all.  I think it would be best if we can come up with a way to make all of those "rounds" happen at once instead of discreetly, that way there's no question about it.  As it is, they require just as much decision as anything else, so we end up with merely NI levels, which we already had.

And we don't care about stats.  We already have infinite stats.  We care about xp and thus levels now.

Via the conservative, automated process, we can do this. You know why? We have access to time travel, (Teleport through time, that weird clone summoning epic spell, etc.) and can therefore know what will happen.
Just jump in time to after that Pun-Pun's initiative and his Aleph (0) rounds will be over.

And we do care about stats. What I've said gives us Aleph (number of times we repeat this process again) stats, which is higher than our current Aleph (0).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on December 13, 2012, 04:18:42 PM
So, I guess my question is how this differs from just doing it in normal time. D&D doesn't have rules for the heat death of the universe, to my knowledge, and since entropy is clearly violated through numerous tricks we can safely conclude that there's no need for it. You already have, therefore, a countable infinity of rounds available to you without any sort of time shenanigans, provided you're on a plane that isn't explicitly stated to have a maximum lifespan. Since we can Teleport Through Time (which has no maximum time traversal), you can appear at any point in history to make use of your infinite powers.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on December 13, 2012, 05:20:27 PM
Aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall, aleph(0) bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall.

2nd verse: 
Aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall, aleph(0) bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall.

Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on December 14, 2012, 12:41:51 AM
Aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall, aleph(0) bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall.

2nd verse: 
Aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall, aleph(0) bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall.
Third:
Aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall, aleph(0) bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall.

...
I have a feeling we're going to be at this for a long time.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on December 14, 2012, 12:44:19 PM
Welcome to the T.O. Twelve step program.
Why don't you introduce yourself to the group?

Hi , uh everybody ...  (swallows nervously) ... I'm Pun-pun.

{group voices} : Hi Pun-pun

I am a drunk.  I have been a drunk.  I ever shall be a drunk.
I was a drunk before time.  I'll be a drunk after time stops.
And during time stops, too.  I also want you to know that
I am not a drunk.  Here, let me explain ...

(this part goes on for hours)

... so in conclusion, lets all sing together:
Aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall, aleph(0) bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall.
 :D
 ;)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: dman11235 on December 14, 2012, 01:06:33 PM
Okay, new ability for Pun-Pun: perpetually drunk.  In fact, she's NI drunk (and maybe more).  And also immune to the effects of being drunk.  maybe that's why she drinks so much?  In order to feel something, but she just....can't....feel anymore....
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Amechra on December 15, 2012, 08:55:19 PM
You know that PrC that gives Pun-Pun the ability to have infinite Reach?

It also has an ability that gives you a miss chance of 5% per point of invested Essentia.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on December 18, 2012, 03:41:15 PM
You know that PrC that gives Pun-Pun the ability to have infinite Reach?

It also has an ability that gives you a miss chance of 5% per point of invested Essentia.
Added.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on December 18, 2012, 05:43:47 PM
Okay, new ability for Pun-Pun: perpetually drunk.  In fact, she's NI drunk (and maybe more).  And also immune to the effects of being drunk.  maybe that's why she drinks so much?  In order to feel something, but she just....can't....feel anymore....

 :plotting
Maybe Pun-pun can only get A.H. drunk.
Unless in a fit of supreme partying (uh-oh)
acquires a Drunken Master type ability.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: JohnnyMayHymn on February 12, 2013, 08:59:01 PM
You know that PrC that gives Pun-Pun the ability to have infinite Reach?

It also has an ability that gives you a miss chance of 5% per point of invested Essentia.
Added.
so... only Aleph(0)% miss chance?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on February 12, 2013, 10:25:23 PM
You know that PrC that gives Pun-Pun the ability to have infinite Reach?

It also has an ability that gives you a miss chance of 5% per point of invested Essentia.
Added.
so... only Aleph(0)% miss chance?
I'm still not sure we have more than aleph(0) anything, but I'll admit that larger infinities does confuse me.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 15, 2013, 04:34:25 PM
It's probably the case, that whoever old school T.O.-er
could explain Aleph1 to non high math majors, and
know enough about punpun, has a very complicated job
... (which they think about quitting every now and then).
 :D ;)


**


Staff of Pun-Pun ... how far out can an Item go ??
From that spell a thread page back, it's got his memories
and Int Wis Cha, so that's a lot of juice right off.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on February 16, 2013, 10:36:09 AM
You know that PrC that gives Pun-Pun the ability to have infinite Reach?

It also has an ability that gives you a miss chance of 5% per point of invested Essentia.
Added.
so... only Aleph(0)% miss chance?
I'm still not sure we have more than aleph(0) anything, but I'll admit that larger infinities does confuse me.
I don't know shit about the aleph notation, but at least I can describe part of the idea of countable vs uncountable infinities. Countable infinities are just infinitely big, but uncountable infinities are also, in the way I think of it, infinitely dense. With a countable infinity, you can sort of "make progress" toward the end, such that given infinite time you'd finish counting through all of it, like if you were to count integers from 1 to infinity. Uncountable infinities, though, put you in a situation where just counting from one element of the set to any other will also take an infinite amount of time, much less counting the entire group, such as if you were counting from 1 to infinity but wanted to get every real number in between. Between, say, 1 and 2, there are infinitely many real numbers.

I've probably missed the real mathematical distinction, though.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on February 16, 2013, 04:33:05 PM
I got that much from some simple research, Bauglir, but not how to verify whether or not the method described earlier in this thread produces an uncountable infinity.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on March 02, 2013, 04:00:15 PM
Uh oh ...  :tongue ... gamingden is having a hash-out:

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=54075&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bauglir on March 03, 2013, 09:45:23 PM
I hereby submit that we ignore its conclusion, whatever it is. It's an argument over what a particular grammar choice implies. I know what my opinion is, but it's a stupid argument and I'm stupider for having skimmed it and thereby forming an opinion.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: EjoThims on March 05, 2013, 08:06:55 PM
I hereby submit that we ignore its conclusion, whatever it is. It's an argument over what a particular grammar choice implies. I know what my opinion is, but it's a stupid argument and I'm stupider for having skimmed it and thereby forming an opinion.

This, especially the last.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on March 05, 2013, 08:16:20 PM
(without engaging with it much at all)

The Sarrukh did leave evidence of their handywork.
So they at least did that.

They could say, Knowledge check all the monsters
that were around at their time, and get a very large pile.

Ripvanwormer has a long FR / Planescape timeline
The Sarrukh show up around the red line.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on March 06, 2013, 12:47:29 PM
I hereby submit that we ignore its conclusion, whatever it is. It's an argument over what a particular grammar choice implies. I know what my opinion is, but it's a stupid argument and I'm stupider for having skimmed it and thereby forming an opinion.

This, especially the last.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: OldManAlexi on March 09, 2013, 12:41:23 PM
Pun-Pun cannot be seen.  With a combination of the Shadow Blend ability of the Shadow Dragon and the Hide in Plain Sight ability of the Shadowspy, Pun-Pun can hide in any situation.  Add in her infinite hide skill modifier and no one is going to find her.  Actually, that infinite hide mod would probably allow her to hide while shouting "I'M HERE. I'M HERE."  Thus, her location would not be a secret so Vecna couldn't find her either. 
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on March 09, 2013, 04:11:25 PM
Pun-Pun cannot be seen.  With a combination of the Shadow Blend ability of the Shadow Dragon and the Hide in Plain Sight ability of the Shadowspy, Pun-Pun can hide in any situation.  Add in her infinite hide skill modifier and no one is going to find her.


Heh good point.


Quote
Actually, that infinite hide mod would probably allow her to hide while shouting "I'M HERE. I'M HERE." 

Pun-pun can generate an Inf loud Sonic something, so this gets into the Create an Object too heavy to lift conundrum.
But only for himself / lesser selves // legit challengers.


Quote
Thus, her location would not be a secret so Vecna couldn't find her either.

Omni Knowledge checks lets you know how to hide Info from Vecna.
And that giving the secret appearance of a "serpent" leaving just the
lightest smidgey hint that it was there ... will tickle Vecna for a long time.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on March 09, 2013, 11:41:55 PM
Ummm... Pun-pun took the Vecna-blooded ability, and does not depend on being Vecna-blooded.
Pun-pun can just kill Vecna, and be done with that little qualm.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on March 10, 2013, 08:33:35 AM
Ummm... Pun-pun took the Vecna-blooded ability, and does not depend on being Vecna-blooded.
Pun-pun can just kill Vecna, and be done with that little qualm.
She could, but she's busy plane shifting to Earth and back to check various dragon magazines and D&D books for interesting abilities.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on March 10, 2013, 09:11:53 AM
... she's busy ...

WHAT!?!

Pun-pun is never 'busy'.
Copy-puns, time travel, the ability to affect any point on any plane from any point on any plane, NI actions in any given round.
Pun-pun killing Vecna would be a reflexive immediate action, done by a copy, before Pun-pun was even 1/4 way through the full ascension.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Halinn on March 10, 2013, 11:11:58 AM
... she's busy ...

WHAT!?!

Pun-pun is never 'busy'.
Copy-puns, time travel, the ability to affect any point on any plane from any point on any plane, NI actions in any given round.
Pun-pun killing Vecna would be a reflexive immediate action, done by a copy, before Pun-pun was even 1/4 way through the full ascension.
Immediate action? No way! Those are much too rare to waste on something trivial like killing gods. Besides, why even bother?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on March 10, 2013, 11:16:46 AM
Immediate action? No way! Those are much too rare to waste on something trivial like killing gods. Besides, why even bother?

Infinite secrecy: Vecna-blooded + no Vecna.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on March 10, 2013, 03:28:54 PM
Ooooooh ...  :o ... that's dirty ; I like it.

So Vecna exists, and doesn't realize that he/it
has been totally recreated down to the exact
molecule, except for the ability to know a secret
about Pun-pun. 
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on March 30, 2013, 02:57:55 PM
Truenamers can increase the Effective Spell Level
by easily increasing the DC check by +4 per level.
Sooo ... the Omniscificer trick can go boom.
Did we have inf Spell level yet?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on March 30, 2013, 03:28:23 PM
Truenamers can increase the Effective Spell Level
by easily increasing the DC check by +4 per level.
Sooo ... the Omniscificer trick can go boom.
Did we have inf Spell level yet?

That's not an infinite. That is a NI. Yes, you can make the check DC, no matter what it is, due to an infinite int mod. However, you must still set what the check DC that you're beating is. Thus, you can say that the spell level is googolplex to the power of googolplex, and have a DC of insanity, but the DC and ESL would still be quantifiable.

Similarly, thanks to the epic feats for spellcasters, yes, pun-pun has infinite spell slots (due to infinite casting stat) with spells of NI levels (due to NI HD).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on April 01, 2013, 06:18:12 PM
 :(
Ahh, two (or three) steps behind.  Poor Truenamer of Pun-pun.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on April 28, 2013, 02:59:14 PM

Insidious Magic is a feat requiring Shadow Weave Magic that renders the effects of any of your non-Evocation or Transmutation undetectable to Divination unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check against your Caster Level + 11.

Oh wow ...  :o ... this is why nobody knew about Pun-pun
before he ("he"/she/it) chose to make himself known.

OK children gather round and consider everything around us
is Pun-pun, except for Evocation and Transmutation magic.
(which we are only just not sure yet about)
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Garryl on April 28, 2013, 03:43:23 PM

Insidious Magic is a feat requiring Shadow Weave Magic that renders the effects of any of your non-Evocation or Transmutation undetectable to Divination unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check against your Caster Level + 11.

Oh wow ...  :o ... this is why nobody knew about Pun-pun
before he ("he"/she/it) chose to make himself known.

OK children gather round and consider everything around us
is Pun-pun, except for Evocation and Transmutation magic.
(which we are only just not sure yet about)

And Shadowcraft Mage abilities means that anything Evocation on the Sor/Wiz list can be Illusion, too, and thus protected by Insidious Magic.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Mithril Leaf on April 28, 2013, 04:16:24 PM
Red Wizard of High Sorcery 3 gets the same, but affects all schools.

From The Dragonlance Campaign Setting, the ability is:

Quote
Magic of Mystery: A Red Robe who knows this secret casts spells that are harder to detect and identify. When another spellcaster employs a divination spell, spell-like ability, or magic item, such as a detect magic spell, that may detect the magical aura of one of the Red Robe's spells, the other caster must make a level check (DC 11 + the Red Robe's caster level) to successfully detect the spell. Similarly, a spellcaster attempting to use a divination such as see invisibility to reveal the effects of one of the Red Robe's spells must make a level check to reveal the spell's effects. Any given caster can check only once for each divination spell used, no matter how many of the Red Robe's spell effects may be operating in an area.

In addition, when another spellcaster attempts to identify the spell a Red Robe is casting (for instance, to counterspell it), the DC of the required Spellcraft check is increased by +1 for every 2 class levels the Red Robe has attained.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Amechra on April 29, 2013, 01:29:50 PM
Ah, well, Pun-Pun gets the best of everything!

Literally.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Forumowicz on April 29, 2013, 03:43:25 PM
You could just grab vecna-blooded Cloak of Mystery supernatural ability as soon as you get Manipulate Form. Unless someone catches you in the process, you are completely forgotten and immune to divination (no risk of losing the opposed caster check).
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: zugschef on April 29, 2013, 03:52:24 PM
Ah, well, Pun-Pun gets the best of everything!

Literally.
no he doesn't. literally.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Amechra on April 29, 2013, 05:15:42 PM
Fine, figuratively, then.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: ariasderros on April 29, 2013, 05:26:14 PM
You could just grab vecna-blooded Cloak of Mystery supernatural ability as soon as you get Manipulate Form. Unless someone catches you in the process, you are completely forgotten and immune to divination (no risk of losing the opposed caster check).

VB is already accounted for. But if the planet that you live on is one that he made via Major Creation castings, you could still use Detect Magic to know that your planet is just a Conjuration spell creation. This is because VB protects you from divination, but not necessarily your spell effects if they are independent of you, such as the aforementioned planet.

Beat the CL check? Pun-Pun has a NI Caster Level, and a True Infinite Effective Caster Level. It would be the Effective CL that you'd go by for this. So, in order to beat the check, you'd need an Infinite CL yourself. Somehow, I doubt that Pun-Pun would allow that.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Forumowicz on April 30, 2013, 05:02:04 PM
You could just grab vecna-blooded Cloak of Mystery supernatural ability as soon as you get Manipulate Form. Unless someone catches you in the process, you are completely forgotten and immune to divination (no risk of losing the opposed caster check).

VB is already accounted for. But if the planet that you live on is one that he made via Major Creation castings, you could still use Detect Magic to know that your planet is just a Conjuration spell creation. This is because VB protects you from divination, but not necessarily your spell effects if they are independent of you, such as the aforementioned planet.

Beat the CL check? Pun-Pun has a NI Caster Level, and a True Infinite Effective Caster Level. It would be the Effective CL that you'd go by for this. So, in order to beat the check, you'd need an Infinite CL yourself. Somehow, I doubt that Pun-Pun would allow that.
That makes sense. I misunderstood the purpose and thought that it is a trick used to avoid being prevented from achieving Pun-Pun-hood. In that case it is an awesome feat indeed.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on April 30, 2013, 08:26:06 PM
Heh ... Pun-pun spams Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) all across the planes.
No one's the wiser.
Maybe Pun-pun created all the planes?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on June 05, 2013, 02:08:23 PM
Is there anyway to extend the Insidious Magic trick to all of Evocation and Transmutation? I prefer not to use Dragonlance material unless I have to.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on June 05, 2013, 05:10:31 PM
Garryl's post 236, should move lots of Evoc over.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on June 06, 2013, 05:15:10 PM
Garryl's post 236, should move lots of Evoc over.
I know but I was looking for something a little more encompassing or I might have to just go with the Dragonlance ability.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on June 06, 2013, 06:23:10 PM
Idea:

Linked Power metapsi turns the 2nd power into a metapsi cost.
This would be a near T.O.-ish interpretation, but the 1st power
can set what kind of school/discipline it belongs to, and then
consider the 2nd power just a metapsi.  Cheesy yes?

We already almost do this, with the Erudite as a way around
it's Unique Powers limit.  There it's just a metapsi cost, and there
isn't any worry about what else might be going on.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: Bastian on February 10, 2014, 01:43:59 PM
Does anyone know if there are any "feats that enhance movement and defense" that can be taken multiple times that would allow us to abuse the Legacy Champion/alternate Uncanny Trickster loop (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11474.msg215027#msg215027)?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on February 11, 2014, 06:20:34 PM
Oh you mean, since it's a Loop instead of the usual A.H. goes to Inf.


Epic srd has these loop-ables:
Armor Skin +1 NA
Blinding Speed +5 minutes of Haste, technically (ex)
Damage Reduction +3/-
Energy Resistance +10 to one of acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic
Epic Inspiration +1 to Competence Dodge Morale via Bardic Music
Epic Skill Focus +10 to one skill (linear tho) , probably already has these
Epic Toughness +30 hp
Extend Life Span +1/2 to age category, can be rationalized to work
Fast Healing +3
Great Stat X +1 to one of 6, can easily be rationalized to work
Group Inspiration ... not sure about this one
Improved Dark Vision doubles
Improved Favorite Enemy +1 to Bluff (?), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival 
Improved Low Light Vision doubles
Improved Spell Resistance +2
Ranged Inspiration ... not sure about this one

Who'd be listening to Pun-pun one handed clapping?


Psi
Open Minded +5 skill ranks, to fill up all those that fit this definition
Psionic Talent (+1*X)+2 ppoints so long as rationalized

Deities
Extra Music +1 use per day, rationalized

Core
Extra Turning +4 uses per day
Spell Mastery +Int for easy bake, rationalized
Toughness +3hp (snore)


google site:dndtools.eu this feat can be taken multiple times
... gets 493 results.  Even with the inconsistent wordings.


Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: nijineko on August 26, 2016, 02:59:08 PM
so. possibly silly questions.

doesn't the whole pun-pun premise rest upon being able to make the DC check for knowing about the sarrukh (or however that's spelled)?

and are not things, by definition, which are not known to the character infinite dc, or simply disallowed a check by the DM?

which would mean that regardless of how high a dc check one couuld make, if the character has never been exposed to the knowledge, they simply can't know it and don't even get a check in the first place?



ergo... pun-pun is impossible from the beginning?



unless, of course, one manages to find a tome with handy description... or is that part of the premise?
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 26, 2016, 03:23:08 PM
Theoretical (adj): based on or calculated through theory rather than experience or practice.
synonyms: hypothetical, abstract, conjectural, academic, suppositional, speculative, notional, postulatory, what-if, assumed, presumed, untested, unproven, unsubstantiated.

There really isn't any TO that works on the table top because otherwise it wouldn't be TO.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: phaedrusxy on August 26, 2016, 03:27:58 PM
so. possibly silly questions.

doesn't the whole pun-pun premise rest upon being able to make the DC check for knowing about the sarrukh (or however that's spelled)?

and are not things, by definition, which are not known to the character infinite dc, or simply disallowed a check by the DM?

which would mean that regardless of how high a dc check one couuld make, if the character has never been exposed to the knowledge, they simply can't know it and don't even get a check in the first place?



ergo... pun-pun is impossible from the beginning?
The same could be said about any knowledge check. The entire point of the check is to see if the PC knows it or not. If the DM determines beforehand that the PC does NOT know that information, no matter how good their check, then the DC is basically infinite. IF there is a chance at all that the PC might have picked up that information, then the DM sets an appropriate DC.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: nijineko on August 26, 2016, 03:37:36 PM
i see.

i was just wondering because i saw a lot of phraseology to the effect of: well the dc is only such-an-so, so my character obviously knows that.

i had the impression that some were assuming that if they could make the listed dc, their character somehow automatically knew that without actually doing anything to learn it in the first place.

thought i'd ask here to get the inside angle.


thanks for the explanations.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: EjoThims on July 14, 2017, 08:21:49 AM
i had the impression that some were assuming that if they could make the listed dc, their character somehow automatically knew that without actually doing anything to learn it in the first place.

That is, technically, how it works before DM fiat comes in to play.
Title: Re: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on July 14, 2017, 04:07:28 PM
obscure tangent to that ... if you remember Tsuyo's Shaedling.
They aren't trained in Know(anything), so the top DC is 10.
But that's only on the first iteration.