Attack Rolls and Saves: Omniscificer TrickNigh-Infinite
Ability Scores: Omniscificer Trick + Pain Mastery + Bellflower Tattoo + Alter Reality to make it permanent
Skill Ranks: Void Disciple's Moment of Clarity(Su) + Alter Reality + infinite ability scores
Damage: the Factotum's Cunning Insight(Ex) + an infinite Intelligence modifier + nigh-infinite Inspiration points (without nigh-infinite Inspiration points, it can't be used continuously but it is sitll possible to use)
Untyped damage that bypasses all forms of immunity or resistance (unless the enemy is a tanar'ri): the Jovoc's Aura of Retribution (Su) + Delay Death made permanent by Alter Reality + another method to deal infinite damage. Whenever Pun-Pun wants to use this trick It simply needs to suppress Its regeneration on whichever body It wants to use then deal an infinite amount of damage to that body. Alternatively It could have two bodies next to each other that both have Aura of Retribution so they both take and cause an infinite amount of damage continuously (and after the loop starts they both can have Regeneration up). Any body that Pun-Pun does not wish to take part in this loop simply needs to either not have Aura of Retribution or needs to count as a tanar'ri.
Attack Bonus, Initiative, Turn Undead, Hit Points, Spell slots, Power Points: Infinite ability scores
Followers: Epic Leadership + Infinite Charisma. Note that It has an infinite number of followers of each level up to and including 20th (so an infinite number of 1st level followers, an infinite number of 2nd level followers, and so on).
AC: Infinite ability scores + Battlesense divine salient ability + Fist of the Forest's AC Bonus(Ex) (for con)+ Factotum's Improved Cunning Defense(Ex) (for Int) + etc.
Electricity Damage: the Stormsinger's Thunderclap + infinite performance ranks
Area illuminated: the Epic Sword Dancer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030902a)'s Silverhair Armor (Su) + Pun-Pun's infinite charisma modifier
True Seeing distance (plus distance of awareness of magic and magical abilities, see feat description): Paragon Visionary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) epic feat + infinite spot ranks
Number of objects Pun-Pun's phylactery is made of: the epic spell Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery + one of Pun-Pun's infinite mental score modifiers
Number of rounds Pun-Pun can travel into the future: Zerth Cenobite's Timeless Step(Ps) + an infinite wisdom modifier. Note that Pun-Pun can choose to travel a finite number of rounds into the future if It so chooses to.
Number of hit points It can heal in a day: Palidan's Lay on Hands(Su)
Gold: a week of work plus infinite profession ranks
Number of creatures that can be hit with a single attack: a bite attack + infinite speed + Dalmosh's Feeding Frenzy (Ex).
Infinite Knowledge: infinite skill ranks (specifically knowledge, spot, and listen) + infinite mental scores + NI divine ranks + bardic knowledge + Draconic Knowledge + Lore + Portfolio sense divine quality + many divine salient abilities including True Knowledge, Power Of Truth, Know Secrets, Know Death, Divine Recall. Note that all that is really required is infinite knowledge checks since knowledge checks are a measure of how much you know and thus infinite knowledge checks means infinite knowledge. Note 2, this is not the same as omniscience since infinite knowledge does not necessarily mean all knowledge since there is an infinite amount of space and thus knowledge as well and infinity minus infinity in undefined which means even with an infinite amount of knowledge there still could be an infinite amount of things you don't know.
(Effective) Caster Levels: Sanctified One (of Wee Jas)'s Sanctified Spell(Ex) + infinite intelligence score + Alter Reality
Manifester level when manifesting powers from the eight disciplines: infinite caster level + the Psiotheurgist feat taken 8 times
Number of Bodies: Body Outside Body spell + Alter Reality + infinite caster level + a piercing weapon + Ochre Jelly's Split(Ex) + infinite hit points + Hivemind + Living Wall's Amalgam(Ex) (from Dr343) + Dalmosh's Swallow Whole (Ex). All of this results in a truly infinite number of nigh-infinitely large Pun-Puns that all have one mind and can count as one or multiple people depending on which is more advantageous at the time (though only for specific things). Dalmosh's swallow whole ability allows the bodies to move freely from each other as long as one body is in the Gullet demiplane because the Dalmosh's ability automatically means that all bodies have a portal in their stomach that leads there and thus they can be in a non-Euclidean line.(click to show/hide)
Amount of (effective) Essentia invested in any ability that requires it: Psycarnum Infusion feat + Incandescent Champion's Incarnum Overload(Ex) + Alter Reality
Reach: infinite effective essential invested in Umbral Disciple's Kiss of the Shadows(Su)
Spell Resistance: infinite effective essential invested in the Dread Carapace soul meld (bound to heart slot)
Fast Healing: infinite effective essential invested in the Soulspark's Incarnum Shroud(Su), specifically the healing sub-ability
Telepathy and Mindsight: infinite effective essential invested in the Soulspeaker Circlet soulmeld bound to the throat + the Mindsight feat
Damage Reduction: infinite effective essential invested in the Midnight Construct's Essentia Modifications(Su)
All speeds: infinite effective essential invested in the necrocarnum zombie's Incarnum Speed ability
HD for the purposes of the turn undead ability: infinite bodies(each with nigh-infinite HD) + Living Wall's Amalgam(Ex)
Miss chance of attacks made against Pun-Pun: infinite effective essential invested in Umbral Disciple's Embrace of Shadow(Su) + Alter Reality
XP and thus Levels: The Magister template's Arcane Generosity (Su) + using the Divine Creation salient ability to create magic items
HD: Energy Charge (the opposite of energy drain) + Alter Reality to make it permenant and/or the HD resulting from Nigh-Infinite Levels. Note: The reason HD is listed separately is that Energy Charge is a much faster way of gaining HD than the XP method.
Essentia Capacity: Based on HD
Divine Ranks: NutPuns!
Size (of each body): Brown Mold's 'double in size near fire ability' + a continuous fire
Readied Undefined Standard Actions (that can be used as Move Actions): Dominant Ideal ACF set to Time Mantle with Substitute Powers ACF to add Synchronicity to the Time Mantle + Infinite Power points + Linked Power allows for nigh-infinite castings of Synchronicity linked to Synchronicity (aka Garryl's Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy)
Swift Actions: the Ruby Knight Vindicator's Divine Impetus ability + infinite uses of turn undead
Full-Round Actions: Greater Celerity (either via an at-will Sp or Pun-Pun's infinite spell slots) + immunity to daze from Favor of the Martyr made permanent by Alter Reality + Nigh-infinite swift actions + when it is not Pun-Pun's turn using Alter Reality to duplicate Greater Celerity + nigh-infinite undefined readied standard actions. Note that during your turn, immediate actions can be taken as many times as you have swift actions but when it is not your turn you can only take one immediate action. Thus, Alter Reality (which can duplicate any 9th level spell or lower using a standard action) must be used to duplicate the effects of Greater Celerity when it is not your turn.
Area effected by area attacks: Titanic Creature template's Area Attacks(Ex) applied a nigh infinite number of time at a point when Pun-Pun is between Fine and Medium in size (Fine is optimal)
Inspiration points: nigh-infinite Fonts of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606)
Creatures Pun-Pun can control directly: Control Creatures divine salient ability + infinite results on spot checks + an infinite charisma modifier + NI divine ranks
Dark Crafting XP: infinite Knowledge (religion) check result + a sacrifice (per the BoVD's rules on sacrificing). Note this can be set to any finite amount.
the Sarukh's Manipulate Form(Ex): the most ridiculous of all Pun-Pun's ability and the whole basis of Pun-Pun.
Ability to restart time arbitrarily far in the past: Teleport Through Time spell+ a minion coated in quintessence who when taken out uses Forced Dream
Ability to travel through time without having to kill your past self: Teleport Through Time spell + Living Wall's Amalgam(Ex) + either a minion with Manipulate Form or a copy of Pun-Pun. All that needs to be done is have the copy/minion go back in time to give Pun-Pun Amalgam(Ex) when they were conceived and thus when Pun-Pun goes back in time they will not have to kill their original self because they will count as part of a conglomerate person.
Ability to suppress damage reduction, fast healing, immunities, miss chance (including from incorporeality), regeneration, resistance to energy, spell resistance, and turn resistance: a nigh-infinite number of the 3.5 epic destiny Blade of Ragnarok's Destiny Strike(Su)
Immune to attacks that might in anyway hinder It: The Aleax's Singular Enemy(Ex) with the "intended victim" set to one of Pun-Pun's other bodies.(click to show/hide)
Immune to being killed: the Tarrasque's Regeneration(Ex) + the Pale Master's Tough as Bone(Ex) (note that regen needs to be suppressed anytime Pun-Pun wishes to benefit in anyway from taking damage) + Delay Death made permanent by Alter Reality (the main benefit of this is that it can't be suppressed since it isn't actually an immunity)
Won't stay dead if killed: Illurien's Rejuvination(Su) + the Ghost's Rejuvenation(Su) + the 3.5 epic destiny Eternal Hero's Continual Resurrection ability + the lich's phylactory made into an infinite number of objects by the epic spell Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery and one of Pun-Pun's infinite mental score modifiers + various crafted contingency spells + Rejuvenation divine salient ability + Zargon's Horn(Ex) + the Temporal Drake (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20031122a)'s Recurrence (Ex) (so that if the contingency spells fail, there will always be another Pun-Pun there to rez the first immediately instead of having to wait like the other abilities). Encore(Ex) also provides a foolproof way to return from since it makes so the only way to beat Pun-pun would be to roll higher that it on three knowledge or perform checks or to fulfill Pun-pun's "last wishes", however it has the down side of making it "fueled by anger and bitterness" so it should likely only be used as a last resort and only on a powerless body.
Mortals die, no save, no way to block it: Divine Splendor divine salient ability
Ability to end any spell, effect, or condition (with a duration of one round or longer) currently affecting It: Iron Heart Surge
Can automatically erase all knowledge of Its existence from the world whenever It wants to and Diviniation spells don't work on it (and it can sense any attempts to use them): give Itself Cloak of Mystery (Su) every time It wishes to erase any knowledge gained about It since It lasted did it + optionally kill Vecna (who retains knowledge of Its existence)
Slashing, Piercing, and Electricity damage: causes Pun-Pun to multiply do to Ochre Jelly's Split ability
Negative energy: heals Pun-Pun do to the Gravewyrm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20040109a)'s Negative Energy Affinity (Ex)
Font of Power + Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy (see the psionic tricks handbook) = as many Synchronicity-readied actions (usable as plain old standard actions as needed) as you want (not sure if it's NI or truly infinite). Infinite ability scores + Turn/rebuke undead + Divine Impetus gives you as many swift actions as you want, too.Casual Disconcern for the Action Econeomy is nigh-infinite, a finite amount times a finite amount will never equal an infinite amount (in other words an action with a finite result, done a finite number of times will never produce an infinite result).
Technically, d2 Crusader is infinite damage, but it's still only a single attack.
... Size and Number of Bodies: Brown Mold's 'double in size near fire ability' + a continuous fire + Ochre Jelly's Split(Ex) + Continuous electrical damage + NI hit points + Hivemind + Living Wall's Amalgam(?) (from Dr343) resulting in a nigh-infinite number of nigh-infinitely large Pun-Puns that all have one mind and can count as one or multiple people depending on which is more advantageous at the time ...Oh that's just sneaky :tongue
Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.Unfortunately that means that one thing exists which can hurt Pun-Pun, which will be promptly destroyed but still, unless the enemy can already be totally non-existent in some manner.
Immunities are important.Here. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer)
Aleax's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) are probably the best bet, do to their Singular Enemy.QuoteSingular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.Unfortunately that means that one thing exists which can hurt Pun-Pun, which will be promptly destroyed but still, unless the enemy can already be totally non-existent in some manner.
And sorry to ask, but could I receive a link to the Omnificer Trick?
As for Singular Enemy that "victim" can be another one of Pun-Pun's bodies since Amalgam allows allows them to count as multiple people if it is more advantageous.I think I'd call that "body" "Mr Pink" and have him complain about it.
I completely forgot about that Singular Enemy, thanks.
Edit: Whoops, hadn't realized I had spelled it wrong. It was a good thing you had me look it up.
For the AC, it's also infinite because he can add con, wis, cha, and int to AC, and possibly str (monk, SS, Fist of the Forest for con, paladin (with Serenity or not determines wis/cha, there's an AFC that changes the saves to AC), ghost's deflection, Swashbuckler/Factotum, probably more). So even if dex is denied somehow, still gets infinite AC.It is not an infinite number of swift actions because the conversion is not automatic, it needs conscious effort. As a result it can never be infinite since it is the finite result of an action done a finite number of time. To put it another way, the result will always be countable and infinity is not countable.
Also, since he has a truely infinite number of turn attempts, doesn't he have a true infinite number of swift actions?
Doesn't infinite ability scores also mean infinite spell slots?Added. Thanks as well.
And of course nigh-infinite levels of spells slots, due to the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity and the nigh-infinite HD
I would also add in the Zodar immunities along with the Singular Enemy. Just in case.I added a note about it. The only problem with the Zodar's Invulnerability(Ex) is that it also makes you immune to attacks that might help you (as I explained in the note). Thanks for your help.
For the AC, it's also infinite because he can add con, wis, cha, and int to AC, and possibly str (monk, SS, Fist of the Forest for con, paladin (with Serenity or not determines wis/cha, there's an AFC that changes the saves to AC), ghost's deflection, Swashbuckler/Factotum, probably more). So even if dex is denied somehow, still gets infinite AC.It is not an infinite number of swift actions because the conversion is not automatic, it needs conscious effort. As a result it can never be infinite since it is the finite result of an action done a finite number of time. To put it another way, the result will always be countable and infinity is not countable.
Also, since he has a truely infinite number of turn attempts, doesn't he have a true infinite number of swift actions?
It is done one at a time.For the AC, it's also infinite because he can add con, wis, cha, and int to AC, and possibly str (monk, SS, Fist of the Forest for con, paladin (with Serenity or not determines wis/cha, there's an AFC that changes the saves to AC), ghost's deflection, Swashbuckler/Factotum, probably more). So even if dex is denied somehow, still gets infinite AC.It is not an infinite number of swift actions because the conversion is not automatic, it needs conscious effort. As a result it can never be infinite since it is the finite result of an action done a finite number of time. To put it another way, the result will always be countable and infinity is not countable.
Also, since he has a truely infinite number of turn attempts, doesn't he have a true infinite number of swift actions?
That depends on how the process of activating the ability is resolved. If you can, for instance, spend half of your (infinite) turn attempts on the ability, then you would have an infinite number of actions. I'm AFB at the moment, but I think that the wording of the ability was more of a 1:1 thing instead of an x:x, thus requiring it to be countable.
I was under the impression that Pun-pun used Singular Enemy, Zodar Invulnerability, the Tarasque Regeneration, and Alter Reality - permanenced Favor of the Martyr in concert for absolute immunity to everything.I've already had Singular Enemy and Zodar Invulnerability. I'll add the Tarasque's Regeneration and immunity to non-lethal damage (which can be gotten through better methods than Favor of the Martyr) when I have time to look up the exact wording.
Also, for actions: Chronotyryn; Sharn; Choker; and Garryl's Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy reinforced with an Affinity Field (due to the copy-puns). But it can never hit true infinite, the number of actions you can take is always going to be a known factor, no matter how insanely many there may be.The abilities of Chronotyryns, Sharns, and Chokers are pretty much made irrelevant by Garryl's Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy (which is already mentioned). Also Affinity Field isn't needed do to Amalgam().
Not that it's all that relevant (due to having NI standard actions), but PP has NI move actions, too (NI swift actions + Font of Power + Hustle).As you said it is a less useful version of the trick already there. As for the second bit, I'm not sure.
Does this work? Turn any personal range spell into touch range by giving the target the Share Spells ability of a familiar?
I was under the impression that Pun-pun used Singular Enemy, Zodar Invulnerability, the Tarasque Regeneration, and Alter Reality - permanenced Favor of the Martyr in concert for absolute immunity to everything.I've already added Singular Enemy and Zodar Invulnerability. I'll add the Tarasque's Regeneration and immunity to non-lethal damage (which can be gotten through better methods than Favor of the Martyr) when I have time to look up the exact wording.
How exactly does he have infinite ability scores? The original post has NI scores, and I can't remember (or find) how to get the infinite ones.It is listed in my post. "Omniscificer Trick + Pain Master + Bellflower Tattoo + Alter Reality to make it permanent."
I'll add that then, though there wouldn't be any way for Pun-pun to get it except self-inflicted (do to Singular Enemy).I was under the impression that Pun-pun used Singular Enemy, Zodar Invulnerability, the Tarasque Regeneration, and Alter Reality - permanenced Favor of the Martyr in concert for absolute immunity to everything.I've already added Singular Enemy and Zodar Invulnerability. I'll add the Tarasque's Regeneration and immunity to non-lethal damage (which can be gotten through better methods than Favor of the Martyr) when I have time to look up the exact wording.
Actually, the point of FotM is the status immunities. It fills in Daze, which is not covered by even the divine immunities.
Right. What is the Omniscificer trick? And Pain Master? The Pain Master one is the infinite damage loop+delay death+drown yourself, right?
On a related note... the methods of becoming immune to damage would negate the omniscificer trick. SoFirstly, you could simply do the omniscificer trick before giving yourself Singular Enemy. Secondly, as the opening post already states, Singular Enemy can be pointed at one of Pun-Pun's other bodies do to Amalgam.Singular Enemy,Zodar InvulnerabilityandTarasque's Regeneration. Singular Enemy could be made to work if the infinite damage comes from your enemy.
Hmm... you're receiving infinite damage as a constant effect. Jovoc Aura? Anything, or any part of anything, that isn't a tanari gets auto-pwnd.
It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.Cantor's Diagonal Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument) is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
Yes, but it's better this way. The original reason Pun-Pun was a kobold was because it was Khan's attempt at proving that they can be good, for a kobold optimization thread. Pun-Pun doesn't even need to be a scaled one, with the 1st level trick for gaining the abilities, iirc.Heresy! Pun-Pun has always been, is and shall always be a kobold! :shakefist
I think you mean "Teleport through Time" and not "Travel through Time".Nice catch. Thank you.
Does anyone know if manifester level/caster level can be made infinite? If not, what is the best method to get NI manifester level/caster level?
So NI caster level by getting NI actions, then alternatively casting SM3 (for faster growth) and Altering Reality to make it permanent (to stack up tons), then GCF, then repeat?Does anyone know if manifester level/caster level can be made infinite? If not, what is the best method to get NI manifester level/caster level?
Well, for CL, the only thing that doesn't increase your CL by a set amount is Consumptive Field (and the Greater version). So the whole "Looped Consumptive Field" trick may work for this (the greater version can be fed by Summon Monster 1).
Added.Does anyone know if manifester level/caster level can be made infinite? If not, what is the best method to get NI manifester level/caster level?
Well, for CL, the only thing that doesn't increase your CL by a set amount is Consumptive Field (and the Greater version). So the whole "Looped Consumptive Field" trick may work for this (the greater version can be fed by Summon Monster 1).
thanks againIt's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.Cantor's Diagonal Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument) is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
First, imagine an infinitely long sequence, where each element is either 1 or 0. One such sequence could be 111111..., another 000000..., another 10101010..., and so on. Now, imagine that we take all of these sequences, and arrange them into a list. It might look something like this:
1: 111111111....
2: 000000000....
3: 101010101....
4: 010101010....
5: 100100100....
6: 011011011....
...
Thus, we associate each natural number with one such possible sequence. Now, one might think that, since there are infinitely many natural numbers, once we had associated every natural number with a sequence, there would be no more sequences. One would be wrong. Consider the sequence S, defined thus: the nth element in S is 0 if the nth element of the nth sequence is 1, and 1 otherwise. This sequence is clearly not anywhere in the list - it is by its very nature different from every sequence in the list. We can append this specific sequence to the list, but from the same definition, another sequence will arise which does not fit in the list. As long as every sequence on the list can be associated with a natural number, there will be sequences not on the list. Therefore, the set which contains all the possible sequences must have a larger cardinality than the set of all natural numbers, or, in layman's terms, there must be more possible sequences than natural numbers.
I'd add Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery(CoRuin 37) to Won't stay dead if killed part. It allows for Pun-Pun to effectively have NI phylacteries.Nice catch on that one. That is going in both the Won't stay dead if killed subsection and the Truly Infinite section do to the wording "Each time it is cast, the number of objects that comprise the lich's phylactery can be increased by an amount equal to the caster's modifier for its spellcasting ability." Which means the caster doesn't have to choose a number since the spell can automatically be set to have an effect equal to one of Pun-Pun's already infinite mental score modifiers.
Depending on how you read this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a), stealing Primus' Telepathy might allow for Pun-Pun to have Telepathy with truly infinite range(or else Telepathy with infinite range while on Mechanus), but this is subject to interpretation, 3.0 material and definitely shaky RAW.Edit: So I read it and the only place it states the range of Primus's telepathy is in Table 1 so we have to take the table at its word. That means its telepathic range is the entirety of Mechanus and not an inch outside of it. Thus it will go in the Truly Infinite section with that qualification.
If you care to be more explicit about it, NI HD/levels means NI feats and skill levels.I added the bit about skill levels/ranks but Pun-Pun already has nigh-infinite feats/abilities.
As per the extra spell slots table, and Pun-Pun's truly infinite ability modifiers, they have truly infinite spell slots.Added. Nice find.
Greater Celerity + NI Swift Actions therefore grants you NI full actions as opposed to standard, so long as you don't screw up and need to use an immediate action.
Could be used for.... something, I'm sure.
It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.Cantor's Diagonal Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument) is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
First, imagine an infinitely long sequence, where each element is either 1 or 0. One such sequence could be 111111..., another 000000..., another 10101010..., and so on. Now, imagine that we take all of these sequences, and arrange them into a list. It might look something like this:
1: 111111111....
2: 000000000....
3: 101010101....
4: 010101010....
5: 100100100....
6: 011011011....
...
Thus, we associate each natural number with one such possible sequence. Now, one might think that, since there are infinitely many natural numbers, once we had associated every natural number with a sequence, there would be no more sequences. One would be wrong. Consider the sequence S, defined thus: the nth element in S is 0 if the nth element of the nth sequence is 1, and 1 otherwise. This sequence is clearly not anywhere in the list - it is by its very nature different from every sequence in the list. We can append this specific sequence to the list, but from the same definition, another sequence will arise which does not fit in the list. As long as every sequence on the list can be associated with a natural number, there will be sequences not on the list. Therefore, the set which contains all the possible sequences must have a larger cardinality than the set of all natural numbers, or, in layman's terms, there must be more possible sequences than natural numbers.
It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.Cantor's Diagonal Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument) is the best explanation I've seen for the difference between countable(aleph zero) and uncountable(aleph one) infinities. Here's my take on it.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero. Anyone trying to get that number
via the D&D rule set, is up against not just doing it,
but also explaining what it is.
Remains quite a cookie, for both Pun-pun lovers and haters.
First, imagine an infinitely long sequence, where each element is either 1 or 0. One such sequence could be 111111..., another 000000..., another 10101010..., and so on. Now, imagine that we take all of these sequences, and arrange them into a list. It might look something like this:
1: 111111111....
2: 000000000....
3: 101010101....
4: 010101010....
5: 100100100....
6: 011011011....
...
Thus, we associate each natural number with one such possible sequence. Now, one might think that, since there are infinitely many natural numbers, once we had associated every natural number with a sequence, there would be no more sequences. One would be wrong. Consider the sequence S, defined thus: the nth element in S is 0 if the nth element of the nth sequence is 1, and 1 otherwise. This sequence is clearly not anywhere in the list - it is by its very nature different from every sequence in the list. We can append this specific sequence to the list, but from the same definition, another sequence will arise which does not fit in the list. As long as every sequence on the list can be associated with a natural number, there will be sequences not on the list. Therefore, the set which contains all the possible sequences must have a larger cardinality than the set of all natural numbers, or, in layman's terms, there must be more possible sequences than natural numbers.
If your base number system is large enough, that is one symbol for each known positive integer, then there is room on the list. You are simply generating sequences faster than natural numbers. Furthermore, I'm not convinced that infinity exists, there is always a limitation.
Magic Immunity (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.I couldn't find any mention of a killing trait. Where did you find it?
Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.
Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich (http://"http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.html"). Specifically, magic immunity.Magic immunity would only make Pun-Pun worse. Pun-Pun is already immune to all attacks that might hurt it so magic immunity can only make it immune to things that might help it.QuoteMagic Immunity (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Manual of the Planes, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Chronius.Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.I couldn't find any mention of a killing trait. Where did you find it?
Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.
Pun-Pun is already making backups. Any useful spells have already been alter-reality'd onto Pun-Pun, so 1/4 of the Pun Pun's (every second division) would be given Zodar Immunities and Magic Immunity.Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich (http://"http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.html"). Specifically, magic immunity.Magic immunity would only make Pun-Pun worse. Pun-Pun is already immune to all attacks that might hurt it so magic immunity can only make it immune to things that might help it.QuoteMagic Immunity (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
That isn't an explicit ability, that is specifically presented as complete speculation. For all we know Bahamut just annihilates anyone who enters.Manual of the Planes, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Chronius.Let's add another NI sized instant death bubble onto Pun-Pun. Aleax immunities mean he can survive on the seventh mounting heaven of celestia. World-Walker means he is native to that plane while on it. Planar Shepard bubbles + NI duration acorn of far travel gives him a NI sized instant death/absorption bubble.I couldn't find any mention of a killing trait. Where did you find it?
Only natives of the 7th layer who are planar shepards, Aleax's, or Zodars could survive that.
I think.
Absorbs good people, permanently destroys evil people.
Any 'harmless' spell that can harm/kill you wouldn't effect Pun-Pun do to Singular Enemy(Ex).Pun-Pun is already making backups. Any useful spells have already been alter-reality'd onto Pun-Pun, so 1/4 of the Pun Pun's (every second division) would be given Zodar Immunities and Magic Immunity.Oh, and there are more immunities. Look at, say, demilich (http://"http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.html"). Specifically, magic immunity.Magic immunity would only make Pun-Pun worse. Pun-Pun is already immune to all attacks that might hurt it so magic immunity can only make it immune to things that might help it.QuoteMagic Immunity (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Also, there are a number of (harmless) spells which can kill/harm you. Pays to have insurance.
Waitaminute...does Pun-Pun only have *1* immediate action? Is there a way for him to get more than 1 (preferably, NI or I)?Would divine impetus not grant NI many more?
-K
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn.
Pun-Pun similarly has NI actual power points from taking Psionic Talent NI times (instead of just not needing to spend any from Font of Power).Truly inifinite, actually, from NI manifester level + truly infinite Int/Wis/Cha.
Added.Pun-Pun similarly has NI actual power points from taking Psionic Talent NI times (instead of just not needing to spend any from Font of Power).Truly inifinite, actually, from NI manifester level + truly infinite Int/Wis/Cha.
And aren't inspiration points based on int+FoI? If that's the case, then he has literally infinite inspiration points, and thus....NI factotum abilities?They are not based off int sadly enough.
Any ability base directly off of ability scores (power points, inspiration points, spells per day, turn/rebuke attempts, etc) are truly infinite for him because of infinite ability scores.
So, I think sometimes we need to compile things that limits *him* or things he *can't* do. Not that it's much of limitation to have only 1 immediate action per turn, given that he can generate NI-ready-standard-action-he-can-use-whenever-he-wants via Synchronicity, but still, I feel like saying "he can't have the second immediate action" is wrong!You are right, it is wrong. However it is not wrong because Pun-Pun can get around it, it is wrong because the rules say otherwise.
-K
During your turn, immediate actions can be taken as many times as one has swift actions. Outside of your turn, you can only take one immediate action. I will add this as a note so people don't get confused.Quote from: srdUsing an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn.
Both Wish and Arcane Fusion can mimic spells that take an immediate action. To use those when it's not your turn you can use Contingency (SLA to let you refresh it each turn), Synchronicity, or that divine spell that gives you an extra readied action.
Nevermind your nevermind, because Epic Leadership.Epic Leadership is what caps followers at level 20, actually.
Isn't there a PrC for Leadership? I know Kensai has one ability, but it's not based off Leadership and won't help....Well, by the strict rules as written, you're entitled to your truly infinite followers. So if there aren't truly infinitely many followers in the campaigns setting... I guess they appear out of thin air in a puff of continuity.
Anyways, I don't think there's a method of turning followers into HD that doesn't work with normal creatures. Although, this does present a philosophical problem: does this mean that there are an infinite number of intelligent creatures? Or does this mean that are only a finite number of creatures and every single one is a follower of Pun-Pun, and Pun-Pun has a finite number of followers?
Is Pun-Pun omni-present? If so, every single follower of his (whether it's an infinite amount, or every creature in the universe) is immune to fear effects. HoB, Legendary Leader 5th level ability. Pun-Pun is also immune to them, due to the 1st level ability.Do you mean Epic Inspiration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicInspiration)? If so, that'd be NI attack/damage. And also NI HD, incidentally.
New problem with infinite creatures: where are they? I mean, these rules don't make the universe infinitely big......
Pun-Pun breaks physics once more!
EDIT: I also believe that these followers have infinite attack bonus/damage, due to Epic Inspire Courage.
EDITEDIT: NI attack/damage, due to NI HD for Pun-Pun.
EDITEDITEDIT: maybe infinite? Is there an ability to grant someone your ability modifier as a bard or something similar?
Is Pun-Pun omni-present? If so, every single follower of his (whether it's an infinite amount, or every creature in the universe) is immune to fear effects. HoB, Legendary Leader 5th level ability. Pun-Pun is also immune to them, due to the 1st level ability.Pun-Pun is not omni-present, just nigh-infinitely large with a nigh-infinite number of bodies. Also, yes, Pun-Pun does literally have an infinite number of followers.
New problem with infinite creatures: where are they? I mean, these rules don't make the universe infinitely big......Yes, yes the rules actually do. In fact most of the major planes are each explicitly infinitely large.
Hmm...so the universes have infinite mass as well? That solves that problem! Now the question becomes whether or not he has every creature as a follower or not. I'm not sure how one would even BEGIN to solve that problem, so any math people want to take a crack at it? Though, where does it discuss this? MotP?
Added.Both Wish and Arcane Fusion can mimic spells that take an immediate action. To use those when it's not your turn you can use Contingency (SLA to let you refresh it each turn), Synchronicity, or that divine spell that gives you an extra readied action.
Quoted for even more ways around the immediate action matter. Still not perfect, as not everything immediate can still be mimicked this way.
Regarding actions, can we assign them a specific time in a turn's 6 seconds, or only the order they take place in? If the former, I think legitimately infinite actions works out by the expedient of taking your first action 1/2 way through your turn, then your second 1/2 way through the remainder of your turn, and so on and so forth. You reach the end of the sequence at the end of your 6 seconds, having taken infinite actions (rather than arbitrarily many).We can not assign them a specific time and even if we could, it wouldn't help since you could only assign a finite number of actions to take place in that sequence. You can only take a finite number of actions in that sequence since you have to specify when each one of them individually takes place, instead of just setting up an automatic rule specifying when each of them occurs.
EDIT: I also believe that these followers have infinite attack bonus/damage, due to Epic Inspire Courage.Pun-Pun can do all of that with Manipulate Form so I'm not sure if it should be added.
EDITEDIT: NI attack/damage, due to NI HD for Pun-Pun.
EDITEDITEDIT: maybe infinite? Is there an ability to grant someone your ability modifier as a bard or something similar?
EDIT: Oh jeeze, this is great: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/highProselytizer.htmThe Control Creatures divine salient ability supplants that. Thank you for indirectly giving me the idea to look that up. :)
Wait, why do you have to specify each one? I mean, in practice, you're going to want to in order to actually accomplish anything, but couldn't you just declare that you will spend every available action casting the everloving shit out of meteor swarm on the same area? Or even a repetitive sequence whose details never change?Yes, you have to actually specify each one. You can't just declare that you want to take an infinite number of actions, you actually have to take each action one at a time (even if you fully intend to keep taking actions forever) and thus can never reach an infinite number.
Yep.Okay, allow me to cut out the excess verbiage.
Why?
Oh, wait it's because you only ever have one at a time, and it's only taking one that triggers the next. And we're disallowing assigning routine instructions because there's no actual mechanic for that, and it's something that only exists on a metagame level?
I think Casual Disconcern for the Action Economy can be a true infinity. Unaugmented, Synchronicity still needs to have its action specified (I think). If the action is "manifest a Synchro-linked-Synchro, whose readied action is the same as this one," then choice is removed from the matter and the loop cannot be stopped.Readied actions do not go off automatically, one must choose to take a readied action and can only make that choice if the conditions specified for the readied action are met. Thus only a finite number of actions can be reached.
Hmm...so the universes have infinite mass as well? That solves that problem! Now the question becomes whether or not he has every creature as a follower or not. I'm not sure how one would even BEGIN to solve that problem, so any math people want to take a crack at it? Though, where does it discuss this? MotP?
Assuming that there are an infinite amount of potential followers at each level, 1-20, it is undefined whether or not every one of them is a follower. (+∞) - (-∞) = +∞, (-∞) + (-∞) = -∞, but (+∞) - (+∞) and (-∞) + (+∞) are both undefined.
Hmm...so the universes have infinite mass as well? That solves that problem! Now the question becomes whether or not he has every creature as a follower or not. I'm not sure how one would even BEGIN to solve that problem, so any math people want to take a crack at it? Though, where does it discuss this? MotP?
Assuming that there are an infinite amount of potential followers at each level, 1-20, it is undefined whether or not every one of them is a follower. (+∞) - (-∞) = +∞, (-∞) + (-∞) = -∞, but (+∞) - (+∞) and (-∞) + (+∞) are both undefined.
My kitty avatar is confused again ...
:D
New problem with infinite creatures: where are they? I mean, these rules don't make the universe infinitely big......
Pun-Pun breaks physics once more!
Hell, even every millionth, billionth or whatever-nth person could be a follower, and that would satisfy an infinite amount of followers. Infinities are f'd up.
As far as I understand the BoVD sacrifice mechanics, an infinite knowledge check means that you can get infinite dark crafting gold/xp.The only thing I can see that might make it not work is the fact that the DC has to be set ahead of time and I'm not sure one can make it infinity since there is no set equal mechanic. I'll have to look into it further.
At the very least, it's NI gold that can only be used for crafting.
Full round action from what I can tell, and with a rest period that can be quite long. This will at least allow Pun-Pun to work on another item while in the rest period from Divine CreationAt the very least, it's NI gold that can only be used for crafting.
He already has NI item crafting. From his divine ranks. And it's instant.
Updated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.
If untyped, default to either extraordinary or natural. He could also just take levels in the various other edition classes :DUpdated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.
What's the wording on the various abilities that give Pun-Pun abilities? The older edition abilities may not be graspable, given that they are neither extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural, or natural to my knowledge.
If untyped, default to either extraordinary or natural. He could also just take levels in the various other edition classes :DUpdated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.
What's the wording on the various abilities that give Pun-Pun abilities? The older edition abilities may not be graspable, given that they are neither extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural, or natural to my knowledge.
Impervious to the Divine:
An elder evil that has this property cannot be affected by divine magic of any kind, regardless of the source.
Benefit: The elder evil is immune to all divine spells, whether from a spellcaster or a magic item. It is also immune to spell-like and supernatural abilities of extraplanar creatures and deities.
This ability is always active.
From the Painisher (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4161.msg61584#msg61584), an idea for infinite xp (and thus infinite HD). Kill an infinite number of creatures. That part is obvious. However.....Doesn't work. Pun-Pun does not have infinite reach.
Some planes are infinitely large, correct? So....destroy a plane. Doesn't Pun-Pun have infinite reach? And whirlwind attack dealing infinite damage with an infinite attack bonus? Do that. Kill an infinite number of creatures. With one action, that way you don't level up, making anyone with a CR of at least 6 lower still give xp. The problem I see is when he can do this. If he can't until NI HD, then it can still maybe happen, just only killing things with NI HD.
I'm kinda on the fence on this one though, it doesn't seem like it should be possible, and I have a feeling I'm just missing something insanely obvious and it can't actually work.
Infinite CL?Only nigh infinite, so it won't kill a truly infinite amount of enemies.
That's why you don't level up until after the action that gets you infinite xp. And if you do not have a true infinite HD, there WILL be an infinite number of creatures with an NI CR on an infinite plane. So as long as you don't level up to infinity before you get infinite xp, you're fine on that front.You can't take an infinite number of actions (see the discussion earlier in the thread for why that is so).
EDIT: basically, what this means is that in order for Pun-Pun to have infinite xp (and thus infinite levels in every class, with infinite HD), all he needs to do is have a truly infinite reach, and his infinite stats. Anything that does truly infinite damage with an infinite area (or targets an infinite number of creatures) will net him infinite xp.
Alternatively, anything that provides xp, as long as he can do a true infinite number of those actions (so in any finite amount of time, accomplishes a true infinite number of the actions) will net him infinite xp.
there WILL be an infinite number of creatures with an NI CR on an infinite plane.That is not so. Infinities can contain merely an infinite amount of some subset, such as an infinite amount of creatures with CR equal to or less than 1000.
This is my supporting point. CR =< ECL-6 or CR=> ECL+6 has no defined XP, thus you cannot say that you do gain it.Infinite CL?Only nigh infinite, so it won't kill a truly infinite amount of enemies.
An additional problem with killing infinite creatures is that you're too high ECL for them to grant any experience points. If you instead treat everything as a single encounter, modifying the CR accordingly, you will be too low ECL to gain any experience, or you will only gain one non-infinite sum.
@Bastian: that's where things like Whirlwind Attack come into play. If you have truly infinite reach, you can attack an infinite number of creatures with a single action (you attack every creature within reach).The bolded part is the important thing here. An infinite plane could have a 'law' that stated that no creature naturally occuring there can have a CR above x, for instance.
@Halinn: If you assume an infinite universe with infinite energy (otherwise it's not a true infinite universe), then the probability of anything occurring approaches 1. You'd be right in that the probability is not 1, but it approaches 1. So yes, there would be an infinite number of those planets, spaced infinitely far apart, and infinitely close together. It gets weird. The basic rule is that if there is an object that does not violate the universe's laws, then the probability that the object exists approaches 1 in a truly infinite universe.
As far as other planets exist, there's an infinite amount of energy in the universe. It has to be located somewhere. And taking the above rule into account, it is nearly impossible for there to exist a finite number of landmasses of finite size. The only way for that to happen is for the entire rest of the infinite universe to be taken up by energy.
@Bastian: that's where things like Whirlwind Attack come into play. If you have truly infinite reach, you can attack an infinite number of creatures with a single action (you attack every creature within reach).The bolded part is the important thing here. An infinite plane could have a 'law' that stated that no creature naturally occuring there can have a CR above x, for instance.
@Halinn: If you assume an infinite universe with infinite energy (otherwise it's not a true infinite universe), then the probability of anything occurring approaches 1. You'd be right in that the probability is not 1, but it approaches 1. So yes, there would be an infinite number of those planets, spaced infinitely far apart, and infinitely close together. It gets weird. The basic rule is that if there is an object that does not violate the universe's laws, then the probability that the object exists approaches 1 in a truly infinite universe.
As far as other planets exist, there's an infinite amount of energy in the universe. It has to be located somewhere. And taking the above rule into account, it is nearly impossible for there to exist a finite number of landmasses of finite size. The only way for that to happen is for the entire rest of the infinite universe to be taken up by energy.
In addition, an infinite universe can exist with finite energy, which would necessarily either be spread equally, and thus nearly nonexistant, or clumped. If the energy is clumped, it would be nothing on the scale of the universe, but could contain quite a lot locally. Clumping could occur from a law defining a limit on rate of expansion, and a non-infinite time frame from the clump's formation (which would come from a significant CP violation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP_violation)). Additionally, laws would not necessarily have to be universal in scale.
@Halinn: yes, yes, but there's no law that I know of against having an NI CR. It's another assumption, on your part. And besides, if there's a law in the universe against a creature with NI CR, then Pun-Pun cannot exist. Because Pun-Pun has an NI CR. Simply by existing, Pun-Pun says that there's not limit to your CR. Also, if you take the base assumptions that the plane is infinite, then it does necessarily have an infinite amount of energy. And with that, the probability that the plane has a finite amount of matter approaches 0. It is not 0, yes, but it does approach 0.Okay, whatever. Still won't be infinite experience. At any point in time, you will only be defeating a finite CR. An infinite CR would grant you no experience. If you are defeating an infinite amount of creatures with CR close enough to Pun-Pun's ECL at once, the encounter level would be infinite as per DMG page 48
@arias: yes, but that only works if you are actually at a higher level. iirc, you only level up after an encounter ends. But I suppose it might still not work. Because...what is an encounter? Would the encounter CR be the CR of the group of things you take out? If so, that would be an infinite CR and.....no xp.
can't believe I missed that. Pun-Pun has truly infinite gold, due to a week being spent on his profession check :DNice find. Added.
The omni trick is an infinite damage loopNice catch, I never even thought of considered it with infinite damage to get it to do infinite damage an infinite number of times, that renders Frostbite Touch (Su) rather useless. Now we've just got to check with someone good enough at math to know if that actually is a higher order infinity.
... used for all those other goodies.
It'll do.
If I'm reading your explanation correctly, no, that's not a higher-order infinity.Thank you for the help.
What you're doing would be infinity2
The smallest higher-order infinity would be 2infinity
If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold. :o
If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold. :o
He can already assume any shape of any size. In part because there are so many other shape-changers in the game, and in part because of his divine abilities.
So he is everyone and everything, and has merely chosen to "forget" this while allowing all of his selves to be independent (ignoring amalgam), Etc.
You thought WAY to small for Pun-Pun.
Heck, you thought to small for the Nut-Puns :)
If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold. :oGAAHHH !!!!
I think. I'm not 100% certain.
Sanctified Spell (Ex): Once per day, you can increase your effective caster level by an amount equal to your Intelligence bonus (if any) for 1 round.
We ought to have found this sooner. I was looking through the X stat to Y bonus handbook and found this:Quote from: Complete ChampionSanctified Spell (Ex): Once per day, you can increase your effective caster level by an amount equal to your Intelligence bonus (if any) for 1 round.
Sanctified One of Wee Jas ability. Make that permanent, and bam! Infinite caster level. The holy grail of Pun-Pun ability. With that, we can indirectly get a bunch more infinites.
We ought to have found this sooner. I was looking through the X stat to Y bonus handbook and found this:Upvoted.Quote from: Complete ChampionSanctified Spell (Ex): Once per day, you can increase your effective caster level by an amount equal to your Intelligence bonus (if any) for 1 round.
Sanctified One of Wee Jas ability. Make that permanent, and bam! Infinite caster level. The holy grail of Pun-Pun ability. With that, we can indirectly get a bunch more infinites.
I see. Thank you.
Looking at the Void Disciple, it can also be used to get truly infinite skill ranks, with the Moment of Clarity ability.
We ought to have found this sooner. I was looking through the X stat to Y bonus handbook and found this:Added.Quote from: Complete ChampionSanctified Spell (Ex): Once per day, you can increase your effective caster level by an amount equal to your Intelligence bonus (if any) for 1 round.
Sanctified One of Wee Jas ability. Make that permanent, and bam! Infinite caster level. The holy grail of Pun-Pun ability. With that, we can indirectly get a bunch more infinites.
Do we have any way of converting a caster level directly to a manifester level? Since we're using ML for our telepathy and mindsight, it would be nice.
Infinite ML = Infinite powerpoints.Technically we still have no way of getting infinite true ML with this, just for the powers.
It's worth mentioning the Infinity is an Aleph Zero.
I don't have near enough High Math mojo,
to describe what Aleph One is or why it's different
from Aleph Zero.
With Aleph(0), it'd take infinite(Aleph(0)) time to reach the end.
With Aleph(0), it'd take aleph(0) time to get from 1 to 2, and reaching the end takes even longer than infinite.
We call that longer than infinite amount Aleph(1).
I don't see anything in the rules preventing Pun-Pun from making a Belt of Strength +infinity, and giving that away to get infinite experience from the Arcane Generosity (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/magister.shtml) ability. Afterwards, Pun-Pun will need to rest for an infinite amount of time, of course, but that's easily handled by just making a fresh clone that doesn't have to.Pun-Pun doesn't have infinite experience to craft such an item in the first place?
The fact that Pun-Pun can create anything ever with no limit thanks toAs far as I can tell, XP cost is a rules term, rather than a subjective term. For TO purposes, I believe that you do get the experience.hisher divine ranks. So the question: if you spend no xp, but create an item that takes xp to craft, do you get no xp from this ability?
A character can advance only one level at a time. If, for some extraordinary reason, a character’s XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level.
Pun-Pun actually has infinite essentia capacity; the Incandescent Champion gets a class feature that let's them increase the essentia capacity of one of their essentia receptacles by their charisma.Pun-Pun does not have infinite essentia. All that ability does is make so that if he had infinite essentia, he could invest an infinite amount of it in an soulmeld/ability.
Also, Pun-Pun has infinite turn-attempts; he doesn't need to be able to generate more.
The fact that Pun-Pun can create anything ever with no limit thanks toThat would not create an infinite amount anyways, only a nigh-infinite amount.hisher divine ranks. So the question: if you spend no xp, but create an item that takes xp to craft, do you get no xp from this ability?
Pun-Pun can reach Aleph(1) relatively easily, using Body Outside Body. Infinite Pun-Puns each doing infinite things = Aleph(1).Except each Pun-pun could only do a finite number of things. And no that wouldn't produce aleph(1) even if it did work, Aleph(1) is at minimum 2^infinity, not infinity squared (I made that mistake before as well).
Pun-Pun actually has infinite essentia capacity; the Incandescent Champion gets a class feature that let's them increase the essentia capacity of one of their essentia receptacles by their charisma.
By the way, due to Psycarnum InfusionI've got to go but I'll definitely look into that during the weekend (it sounds promising).
By the way, due toPsycarnum InfusionInfinite Essentia through Soul Boon, Pun-Pun has infinite reach.
So Pun-pun can create an intelligent magic item that has his abilities using Nybor's Psychic Imprint (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041215a). However, I can't seem to find anyway to link intelligent item abilities scores with price so this may not help much. If anyone can find anything, please tell me.
On an unrelated note, I have managed to achieve an infinite number of non-gimped bodies, based off an extension of the Body Outside Body trick (see the spoiler below the listing in the OP for more details).
Sidethought from Quillwraith's idea: assuming that Pun-Pun didn't use one of his many ways to not die from damage, would Aleph(1) damage kill her through her Aleph(0) hit points?It should. Aleph(1) > Aleph(0).
get a two wide, aleph(0) long line of BOB clones with Jovoc auras. Stand at one end of the line, have the pair of clones at the other end hit each other.
In a finite line, the pair at the begging of it would each damage the next pair, so those take double the original damage. The 3rd pair take twice that, and so on. At the end of an infinitely long line of these, the damage will have been doubled aleph(0) times, for result of Aleph(1).
Technically, an infinite line can't have 2 ends, so each pair has to hit each other, rather than only the first.
Use the omnicificer trick to turn the Aleph(1) damage into other stats.
We actually couldn't restrict it to Aleph (1) because at each point in the line, it is sent backwards, which includes the 'end' where it is Aleph (1) already. Due to this, and the fact that the Jovoc aura's trigger instantly, this should give us Aleph (NI).I'm not knowledgeable enough about mathematics to know if we'd actually stack up like that, but assuming it's true, wouldn't we get Aleph(Aleph(0))?
Hmm... Existing planes only contain, at best, infinite volume. This could pose problems for arranging our clones if we wanted to chain upward through separate iterations this way, since we have to create our own planes and to do that with Genesis requires getting the casting time down far enough that you can cast a number of them per turn equal to 1 power of Aleph less than what you're trying to get your damage output to be equal to. Fortunately that works out to be exactly the power of Aleph you're starting with, but you need a way to convert that directly into actions. If, and this is a big if, the Celerity Engine works, you still only get up to Aleph(0) with it, and there's no way I know of to hook them back into themselves since traps don't use actions (to my knowledge), and I'm not sure there's a way to make a Von Neumann Trap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_spacecraft).get a two wide, aleph(0) long line of BOB clones with Jovoc auras. Stand at one end of the line, have the pair of clones at the other end hit each other.
In a finite line, the pair at the begging of it would each damage the next pair, so those take double the original damage. The 3rd pair take twice that, and so on. At the end of an infinitely long line of these, the damage will have been doubled aleph(0) times, for result of Aleph(1).
Technically, an infinite line can't have 2 ends, so each pair has to hit each other, rather than only the first.
Use the omnicificer trick to turn the Aleph(1) damage into other stats.
Assuming this works, this gives us any aleph we want because Aleph (2) = 2^Aleph (1), etc. etc.
We actually couldn't restrict it to Aleph (1) because at each point in the line, it is sent backwards, which includes the 'end' where it is Aleph (1) already. Due to this, and the fact that the Jovoc aura's trigger instantly, this should give us Aleph (NI).However, if this is true, then what I just said only applies to jumping from one... power of powers(?) of aleph to the next. There's a term for this, I just cannot for the life of me remember it. Still, somebody smarter than me will be along shortly, I'm sure.
I don't know enough about this maths to be sure, but doesn't the fact that each process is triggered mean that it can't reach truly infinite? If you have a magic computer repeat an action with no delay, but only 1 at a time, it can only have triggered a defined (but unknowable) number of times. E.G. the number move actions for meta-magic-less Greater Celerity via Alter Reality looping would be NI.We actually couldn't restrict it to Aleph (1) because at each point in the line, it is sent backwards, which includes the 'end' where it is Aleph (1) already. Due to this, and the fact that the Jovoc aura's trigger instantly, this should give us Aleph (NI).I'm not knowledgeable enough about mathematics to know if we'd actually stack up like that, but assuming it's true, wouldn't we get Aleph(Aleph(0))?
Hm, temporal acceleration is probably a much more efficient mechanism than Greater Celerity. Unfortunately, while I'm pretty sure we have to agree that infinite looping produces a true infinity (this is how the Omniscificer does it - through infinite looping of a finite amount of damage), progress at that rate doesn't jack us up to the next degree of Aleph, since (I think) we're only ever taking Aleph(whatever) to an arbitrarily high power, rather than an arbitrarily large base to the Aleph(whatever) power. Unless we can automate it, I think. Which I just now realized is a problem with hitting level infinity - we're going to need to automate entire adventures so they execute infinitely many times.
Yeah, but the problem is that we actually have to construct and execute an infinite sequence of decisions when we say that we're doing something some number of times every round for Aleph(0) rounds. I might be completely misunderstanding it, but I think it's the same reason why you can't go from NI of something to Aleph(0) just by saying so. Remove the decision-making, though, and it's no longer arbitrary whether the cycle continues at a given iteration, and you can therefore actually take limits.
Can we figure out a way to automate the production of clones in a way that still fundamentally ties it to a current statistic? If I read it correctly, traps are fixed at Aleph(0) unless you can automate trap production.
Thus, Aleph (0) clones in one space. If each performs the clone spawning routine, we have Aleph (0) ^ 2 clones.Aleph(0)^n = Aleph(0). We need 2^Aleph(0) to reach Aleph(1).
This repeats to Aleph (0) ^3 clones.
Via repetition, we thus have Aleph (0) ^ (Number of repetitions we can have) clones. Via input of damage and use of aura's, we can convert this to stats.
Aleph (0) ML temporal acceleration gives us Aleph (0) rounds to do this in, which means we can thus have (Current Aleph) ^ (Current Aleph) clones, and thus, via AOE damage, stats.
Which I just now realized is a problem with hitting level infinity - we're going to need to automate entire adventures so they execute infinitely many times.Body Outside Body (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-arcane--55/body-outside-body--454/) gives us an infinite amount of clones. Have each of those make a magic item with their divine ability and give it one of your followers that hasn't yet gotten an item. Aleph(0) separate encounters each giving some amount of experience through your magister template power.
Thus, Aleph (0) clones in one space. If each performs the clone spawning routine, we have Aleph (0) ^ 2 clones.Aleph(0)^n = Aleph(0). We need 2^Aleph(0) to reach Aleph(1).
This repeats to Aleph (0) ^3 clones.
Via repetition, we thus have Aleph (0) ^ (Number of repetitions we can have) clones. Via input of damage and use of aura's, we can convert this to stats.
Aleph (0) ML temporal acceleration gives us Aleph (0) rounds to do this in, which means we can thus have (Current Aleph) ^ (Current Aleph) clones, and thus, via AOE damage, stats.
Also, temporal acceleration can only give us NI rounds, since we have to choose an amount of times we augment it.
Augmenting is not something we have to do multiple times per use of a power. Augmenting is: I spend X extra power points, and the power says for every Y extra power points spent something extra is added on. In this case:You can't choose to treat infinity as a number in saying that you choose to spend infinite power points on a power. In the same way, you can't claim that you have truly infinite swift actions from infinite turnings etc.
(X = Aleph (0))/(y=4)*(1 round) = Aleph (0) Extra Rounds.
I think you can do the first because it's a single decision (you don't augment by 1 pp, then another, and so on, you just augment all at once and you can spend whatever you like, subject to the usual caps). The second can't be done because it requires an infinite number of separate decisions, and saying you're going to do it infinitely many times is just shorthand. At least as I understand it.Augmenting is not something we have to do multiple times per use of a power. Augmenting is: I spend X extra power points, and the power says for every Y extra power points spent something extra is added on. In this case:You can't choose to treat infinity as a number in saying that you choose to spend infinite power points on a power. In the same way, you can't claim that you have truly infinite swift actions from infinite turnings etc.
(X = Aleph (0))/(y=4)*(1 round) = Aleph (0) Extra Rounds.
Derp. Infinite essentia via Reserves of Strength Soul Boon.I'm hesitant to include Reserves of Strength (as the interpretation is extremely dubious) and it doesn't do anything more than Psycarnum Infusion feat + Incandescent Champion's Incarnum Overload(Ex).
So about the Celerity engine... is that only nigh-infinite, as well? I'm not really up on this whole infinity thing, but it seems like it has to fire off an infinite number of instances of the spell in any finite period of time. If I did it right, it's the equivalent of telling a computer that takes no time to perform a calculation to execute an infinite loop.I have to look into this.
He also has an infinite% miss chance.Which ability or soulmeld does that come from?
First off, it would be x*y, not x/y, but the math ends up the same, being aleph(0)*(1round/4PP)=aleph(0).
But that's not the issue. The issue is that in those aleph(0) rounds, each one is taken discreetly, which means you have an NI number of rounds taken, not I rounds taken.After the Temporal Acceleration goes up, you have Aleph (0) round to take actions in. You agree to this.
By the way, in case people have problems with different "sizes" of infinity, this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elvOZm0d4H0) might help to explain how that works. It doesn't go into aleph numbers, but it does explain countable vs. uncountable infinities.
edit: frankly, I don't understand any of it beyond Aleph(1), and I am not sure that 2^Aleph(n) = Aleph(n+1) for cases other than Aleph(0)
However, I don't think it works that by having an infinite number of additional rounds in a single round we can do it. I don't think anyways. I could be wrong, this is the YBIYBI section after all. I think it would be best if we can come up with a way to make all of those "rounds" happen at once instead of discreetly, that way there's no question about it. As it is, they require just as much decision as anything else, so we end up with merely NI levels, which we already had.
And we don't care about stats. We already have infinite stats. We care about xp and thus levels now.
Aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall, aleph(0) bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall.
Third:Aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall, aleph(0) bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall.
2nd verse:
Aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall, aleph(0) bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph(0) bottles of beer on the wall.
You know that PrC that gives Pun-Pun the ability to have infinite Reach?Added.
It also has an ability that gives you a miss chance of 5% per point of invested Essentia.
Okay, new ability for Pun-Pun: perpetually drunk. In fact, she's NI drunk (and maybe more). And also immune to the effects of being drunk. maybe that's why she drinks so much? In order to feel something, but she just....can't....feel anymore....
so... only Aleph(0)% miss chance?You know that PrC that gives Pun-Pun the ability to have infinite Reach?Added.
It also has an ability that gives you a miss chance of 5% per point of invested Essentia.
I'm still not sure we have more than aleph(0) anything, but I'll admit that larger infinities does confuse me.so... only Aleph(0)% miss chance?You know that PrC that gives Pun-Pun the ability to have infinite Reach?Added.
It also has an ability that gives you a miss chance of 5% per point of invested Essentia.
I don't know shit about the aleph notation, but at least I can describe part of the idea of countable vs uncountable infinities. Countable infinities are just infinitely big, but uncountable infinities are also, in the way I think of it, infinitely dense. With a countable infinity, you can sort of "make progress" toward the end, such that given infinite time you'd finish counting through all of it, like if you were to count integers from 1 to infinity. Uncountable infinities, though, put you in a situation where just counting from one element of the set to any other will also take an infinite amount of time, much less counting the entire group, such as if you were counting from 1 to infinity but wanted to get every real number in between. Between, say, 1 and 2, there are infinitely many real numbers.I'm still not sure we have more than aleph(0) anything, but I'll admit that larger infinities does confuse me.so... only Aleph(0)% miss chance?You know that PrC that gives Pun-Pun the ability to have infinite Reach?Added.
It also has an ability that gives you a miss chance of 5% per point of invested Essentia.
I hereby submit that we ignore its conclusion, whatever it is. It's an argument over what a particular grammar choice implies. I know what my opinion is, but it's a stupid argument and I'm stupider for having skimmed it and thereby forming an opinion.
Agreed.I hereby submit that we ignore its conclusion, whatever it is. It's an argument over what a particular grammar choice implies. I know what my opinion is, but it's a stupid argument and I'm stupider for having skimmed it and thereby forming an opinion.
This, especially the last.
Pun-Pun cannot be seen. With a combination of the Shadow Blend ability of the Shadow Dragon and the Hide in Plain Sight ability of the Shadowspy, Pun-Pun can hide in any situation. Add in her infinite hide skill modifier and no one is going to find her.
Actually, that infinite hide mod would probably allow her to hide while shouting "I'M HERE. I'M HERE."
Thus, her location would not be a secret so Vecna couldn't find her either.
Ummm... Pun-pun took the Vecna-blooded ability, and does not depend on being Vecna-blooded.She could, but she's busy plane shifting to Earth and back to check various dragon magazines and D&D books for interesting abilities.
Pun-pun can just kill Vecna, and be done with that little qualm.
... she's busy ...
Immediate action? No way! Those are much too rare to waste on something trivial like killing gods. Besides, why even bother?... she's busy ...
WHAT!?!
Pun-pun is never 'busy'.
Copy-puns, time travel, the ability to affect any point on any plane from any point on any plane, NI actions in any given round.
Pun-pun killing Vecna would be a reflexive immediate action, done by a copy, before Pun-pun was even 1/4 way through the full ascension.
Immediate action? No way! Those are much too rare to waste on something trivial like killing gods. Besides, why even bother?
Truenamers can increase the Effective Spell Level
by easily increasing the DC check by +4 per level.
Sooo ... the Omniscificer trick can go boom.
Did we have inf Spell level yet?
Insidious Magic is a feat requiring Shadow Weave Magic that renders the effects of any of your non-Evocation or Transmutation undetectable to Divination unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check against your Caster Level + 11.
Insidious Magic is a feat requiring Shadow Weave Magic that renders the effects of any of your non-Evocation or Transmutation undetectable to Divination unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check against your Caster Level + 11.
Oh wow ... :o ... this is why nobody knew about Pun-pun
before he ("he"/she/it) chose to make himself known.
OK children gather round and consider everything around us
is Pun-pun, except for Evocation and Transmutation magic.
(which we are only just not sure yet about)
Red Wizard of High Sorcery 3 gets the same, but affects all schools.
Magic of Mystery: A Red Robe who knows this secret casts spells that are harder to detect and identify. When another spellcaster employs a divination spell, spell-like ability, or magic item, such as a detect magic spell, that may detect the magical aura of one of the Red Robe's spells, the other caster must make a level check (DC 11 + the Red Robe's caster level) to successfully detect the spell. Similarly, a spellcaster attempting to use a divination such as see invisibility to reveal the effects of one of the Red Robe's spells must make a level check to reveal the spell's effects. Any given caster can check only once for each divination spell used, no matter how many of the Red Robe's spell effects may be operating in an area.
In addition, when another spellcaster attempts to identify the spell a Red Robe is casting (for instance, to counterspell it), the DC of the required Spellcraft check is increased by +1 for every 2 class levels the Red Robe has attained.
Ah, well, Pun-Pun gets the best of everything!no he doesn't. literally.
Literally.
You could just grab vecna-blooded Cloak of Mystery supernatural ability as soon as you get Manipulate Form. Unless someone catches you in the process, you are completely forgotten and immune to divination (no risk of losing the opposed caster check).
That makes sense. I misunderstood the purpose and thought that it is a trick used to avoid being prevented from achieving Pun-Pun-hood. In that case it is an awesome feat indeed.You could just grab vecna-blooded Cloak of Mystery supernatural ability as soon as you get Manipulate Form. Unless someone catches you in the process, you are completely forgotten and immune to divination (no risk of losing the opposed caster check).
VB is already accounted for. But if the planet that you live on is one that he made via Major Creation castings, you could still use Detect Magic to know that your planet is just a Conjuration spell creation. This is because VB protects you from divination, but not necessarily your spell effects if they are independent of you, such as the aforementioned planet.
Beat the CL check? Pun-Pun has a NI Caster Level, and a True Infinite Effective Caster Level. It would be the Effective CL that you'd go by for this. So, in order to beat the check, you'd need an Infinite CL yourself. Somehow, I doubt that Pun-Pun would allow that.
Garryl's post 236, should move lots of Evoc over.I know but I was looking for something a little more encompassing or I might have to just go with the Dragonlance ability.
so. possibly silly questions.The same could be said about any knowledge check. The entire point of the check is to see if the PC knows it or not. If the DM determines beforehand that the PC does NOT know that information, no matter how good their check, then the DC is basically infinite. IF there is a chance at all that the PC might have picked up that information, then the DM sets an appropriate DC.
doesn't the whole pun-pun premise rest upon being able to make the DC check for knowing about the sarrukh (or however that's spelled)?
and are not things, by definition, which are not known to the character infinite dc, or simply disallowed a check by the DM?
which would mean that regardless of how high a dc check one couuld make, if the character has never been exposed to the knowledge, they simply can't know it and don't even get a check in the first place?
ergo... pun-pun is impossible from the beginning?
i had the impression that some were assuming that if they could make the listed dc, their character somehow automatically knew that without actually doing anything to learn it in the first place.