Author Topic: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?  (Read 6350 times)

Offline Libertad

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3618
    • View Profile
    • My Fantasy and Gaming Blog
Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« on: March 26, 2016, 06:09:14 PM »
I hear a lot and get the impression that 5th Edition is a streamlined variant of 3rd Edition. Reading through it there are a lot of things which seem similar.

However, just like how 3rd Edition's playtesters ran the game like 2nd Edition, they managed to miss huge parts of their own game system. Like all the shit Wizards can do aside from blasting spells, or tanky clerics who aren't just healbots. Or how save or dies are a much more effective tactic at higher levels due to completely passing the gradual hit point defense in favor of a binary "survive/lose" option.

I already get a gist of some common experiences, like the Beastmaster Ranger having some screwy mechanics, or that a low Intelligence Eldritch Knight build is feasible by choosing certain spells not reliant on having it as a high ability score.

What I want to know is:

1. What are some things which seem the same or highly similar to 3rd on the surface, but can be easily misunderstood due to how the system plays?
2. What classes, archetypes, etc, are suboptimal to the point that playing a reflavored other class is a better idea?
3. How strong is 'role protection' between classes? How easy would it be for a bard to out-thief a rogue, a druid to out-tank a fighter, etc?
4. How much work is there in converting 3rd Edition/Pathfinder material? I realized that converting between systems is a lot like a language: doing it straight misses all the nuances. A 9 Strength in old-school Editions might be average, whereas in 3rd and 5th it's below-average.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 06:17:20 PM by Libertad »

Offline Wilb

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 285
  • Elder Lurker
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2016, 08:16:56 PM »
1: Aoos and Reach
2: Beastmaster Ranger and Wild Magic Sorcerer are useless, Fighter(champion) a bit item dependent (but is a good dip) and its still way better than the previous 2.
3: A bard can't out-thief a rogue without spending precious limited resources, and those are also open to the rogue himself (and he has more than the bard) making it moot if both use everything they can, but the rogue will still be more consistent in thieving around. There are no clear offenders with the exception of the Moon druid at level 20, when he can certainly out-tank a Fighter (but the Fighter isn't exactly a tank).
4: Its not that hard. At some point there was a semi-auto converter that grokked some acceptable monster conversions. As for other material, converting will be done mostly by feel, with no clear way.

I hope this helps you, and it is, as always, simply my opinion on things, not hard  facts.
Lovely Zoma...

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2016, 05:18:09 PM »
I'm running into some of these lately so I figured I'd list them.

1. Things different from 3rd that people take for granted:
  • Very few things that provoked opportunity attacks in 3rd provoke them in 5e.  By default, only moving out of a creature's reach provokes them.  Some feats and features grant reaction attacks, but not all reaction attacks are opportunity attacks.
  • 1s and 20s aren't special except when it comes to attack rolls and death saving throws.
  • Readying an action in 5e isn't quite the same thing as delaying action.  Readying an action involves declaring an action or movement you want to take and what will trigger it, and you must spend your reaction to perform the readied action when the trigger occurs.  This doesn't change your initiative.  Using a spell with the ready an action option uses concentration, even if the spell would not normally use concentration.
  • Swift action and immediate action are not exactly the same as as bonus action and reaction.  In 5e, you have both a bonus action and a reaction, unlike 3.5 when an immediate action took away your chance to use a swift action.  Reactions also have specific triggers and cannot be used whenever you feel like it.
  • Everything with an attack roll can critically hit.  No creature types have immunity to critical hits or sneak attack.  Sneak attack dice critically hit.  Spell attacks critically hit without using a variant rule from a splatbook.
  • You can knock a flying creature prone to bring it out of the air unless it can hover.

3. Role Protection
  • A ranger's unique role is a master of exploration.  So far that tends to be less useful and some of the Unearthed Arcana infringes on that, but nothing official.  Fighter and rogue tend to outperform them at archery roles due to raw power and mobility respectively.
  • A warlock's role tends to be infringed on when other charisma classes dip it.  It's most powerful unique stuff is available at levels 2 and 3.  This is not to say that warlock is bad, and full spellcasters actually playing to high levels that dip warlock are making a significant sacrifice in late game power for a slight gain at low levels.
  • Bards only step on the toes of the rogue at lower levels.  Past 11, rogues become incredibly consistent at no cost.  A bard would have to expend significant resources to be able to roll more dice to maybe reach that consistency.  In time-sensitive situations, the thief rogue especially outshines the bard at being skilled due to their action economy.
  • Moon druid is tanky, but it's so much less threatening than a fighter at level 11 and beyond that nothing intelligent enough to speak would waste time on the druid unless it had no other options or the druid went back to humanoid form to cast spells.  A barbarian, especially bear totem, deals with big bursts of damage better than the moon druid does.  Moon druid is also extremely susceptible to creatures that can cast Divine Word and Power Word spells.

4: Converting 3.5 and Pathfinder
The biggest challenge is bringing down the scope of numbers.  3.5 creatures are flat-out more powerful than 5e versions more often than not, even with the numbers scaled down appropriately.  Often times you need to ask yourself if something should have high Con just because it's supposed to have high HP, since 5e creatures tend not to have lots of high saving throws and you can arbitrarily add HD instead of Con to increase HP without increasing Con saves in 5e.  Something that's supposed to be very accurate may not necessarily have lots more Strength than a player, since you can adjust proficiency bonus as you see fit to reach the right accuracy without necessarily increasing the damage per hit of the creature.  Some creatures that were very fiddly with the amount of things they could do are good candidates for legendary actions instead of cramming 10+ options onto a creature that might only get 2 turns.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 05:20:34 PM by TenaciousJ »
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline Kremlin K.O.A.

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 06:41:07 AM »
The most obvious wierdness is that deep Gnome Abjurers can make decent battle 'healers.'
At first Level they get +2 int, which can max out Int on a random rolled stats game where you got an 18, or have a 17 Int in a point buy or array game.
At 2nd level you get Arcane Ward: A magic shield that can absorb Int bonus +2x wiz level hp (either 7 or 9 at this level depending on int score) it can be recharged by casting level 1+ Abjuration spells
At 4th level You take the Svirfneblin Magic Feat and get Nondetection at will (self only) This 3rd level Abjuration lets you recharge your shield in seconds between fights.
At 6th level You get Projected Ward, which lets you use your reactions to have your shield absorb hits for another player. Said ward is now 15-17 pts (ironically on average about the difference between your HP and that of a Fighter with the same Con score)
If you did not start with max int your level 8 and 12 feats are spent on Observant (with the +1 int option) and +2 int, in that order. If you rolled but got a 17 as best stat get Observant.
When you can, get the healer feat


So by 12th level, assuming rolled stats and a rolled 17 for int, you get 27 ablative HP to spread around per fight, This recharges between fights, regardless of whether the party takes a short rest, or just 30 seconds searching the room.
You also have a 55% chance of 'No Sale'ing an enemy's 9th level spell, using a 3rd level spell slot. Better if someone lends you inspiration dice. (60% chance for their 8th level slot, 65% for their 7th level slots.)
So yeah, if you want some kind of heal like effects in the party. Go Deep Gnome Abjurer, instead of Cleric. The GM will never see it coming.

Offline Libertad

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3618
    • View Profile
    • My Fantasy and Gaming Blog
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 02:35:23 PM »
The most obvious wierdness is that deep Gnome Abjurers can make decent battle 'healers.'
At first Level they get +2 int, which can max out Int on a random rolled stats game where you got an 18, or have a 17 Int in a point buy or array game.
At 2nd level you get Arcane Ward: A magic shield that can absorb Int bonus +2x wiz level hp (either 7 or 9 at this level depending on int score) it can be recharged by casting level 1+ Abjuration spells
At 4th level You take the Svirfneblin Magic Feat and get Nondetection at will (self only) This 3rd level Abjuration lets you recharge your shield in seconds between fights.
At 6th level You get Projected Ward, which lets you use your reactions to have your shield absorb hits for another player. Said ward is now 15-17 pts (ironically on average about the difference between your HP and that of a Fighter with the same Con score)
If you did not start with max int your level 8 and 12 feats are spent on Observant (with the +1 int option) and +2 int, in that order. If you rolled but got a 17 as best stat get Observant.
When you can, get the healer feat


So by 12th level, assuming rolled stats and a rolled 17 for int, you get 27 ablative HP to spread around per fight, This recharges between fights, regardless of whether the party takes a short rest, or just 30 seconds searching the room.
You also have a 55% chance of 'No Sale'ing an enemy's 9th level spell, using a 3rd level spell slot. Better if someone lends you inspiration dice. (60% chance for their 8th level slot, 65% for their 7th level slots.)
So yeah, if you want some kind of heal like effects in the party. Go Deep Gnome Abjurer, instead of Cleric. The GM will never see it coming.

How much of this is "core" and how much is in other sourcebooks like the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide?

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 05:48:05 PM »
The deep gnome race and their racial feat are both in SCAG and Elemental Evil Player's Companion (a free pdf).  Everything else is core.  Abjurers are pretty strong in 5e even without this trick. 

Any race of abjurer can recharge their ward via in-school rituals fyi, but the deep gnome with svirfneblin magic feat is the fastest way to recharge it when time is a concern.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2016, 05:53:24 PM »
ninja'd


Lock 2 Mage Armor (wtfname) does the same thing, but at a much higher opportunity cost.
Alarm ritual also works, though orders of magnitude slower.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2016, 06:51:41 AM »
One thing to watch out for is the exact wording on Sneak attack. It doesn't work the way it did in 3.5 despite similarities.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2016, 11:10:52 PM »
Sneak attack dice critically hit.
You can almost do this in 3e, but it requires an interpretation that flat out ignores the FAQ. Because rogues are too powerful in 3e, or something.

If 3.5 creatures are flat-out more powerful than 5e versions, even after appropriate scaling, doesn't that imply that PCs are likewise nerfed? Otherwise the PCs would be steamrolling the monsters...

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2016, 04:21:50 AM »

If 3.5 creatures are flat-out more powerful than 5e versions, even after appropriate scaling, doesn't that imply that PCs are likewise nerfed? Otherwise the PCs would be steamrolling the monsters...

5e has different assumptions about how encounters are built and how many encounters per day a group will fight.  Individual creatures are weaker, but you have to compare the total of everything a 5e group is expected to fight in a day against the total of everything a 3.5 group is expected to fight in a day.

5e is also balanced without a WBL assumption.  PCs have more inherent power relative to the system because they are never assumed to have magic items.  Adding magic items forces an adjustment to encounter building to compensate if you want the fights to maintain a similar level of difficulty.  Luckily the 5e encounter building rules offer suggestions for scaling up encounters that can be applicable to a well-equipped group.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline sambojin

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 472
  • It's a game. Have fun.
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2016, 06:29:09 PM »
Much of it also seems to be that buffs aren't as strong and HP damage works as an encounter ender. There's not as many encounter ending spells that a wizard can cast to immediately walk all over a particular mob. No one has 30AC, but everyone has little buffs/debuffs and ways of doing damage.

While doing damage, you'll be using resources, and taking damage as well. This slowly wears parties down, even with healing being more prevalent. When you finally get to your end-of-day "harder" encounters, the enemies can actually seem quite scary with only a couple of good abilities. They're fresh, but your party might not be.

Good pacing of encounters in a given day, and ways of winning them without HP damage even being necessary, is the mark of a good DM in 5th.



I'll agree that the MM could use some work. I won't say they phoned it in, but it wasn't as varied as I would like. To spice things up, I tend to look at what would be available to someone picking the magical initiate feat, and tack on abilities from there. You can describe them as magical, or simply as an ability that these creatures have, or that their equipment provides. Key it to whatever stat you want. Not necessarily the exact cantrips/lvl1 spells, but that ball-park of power. Scale the spell to an appropriate level level if needed, but I wouldn't go higher than an actual level 2 spell's effect.

Thornwhip makes for wonderful lassos. Bless is a chieftain's warcry. Mooks get healing potions (cure light wounds) or can be considered as *their* healing surge. Flaming arrows are produce flame or create bonfire, low range, but can be scary with plenty of them razing the area. Some big beasts have 16AC with barkskin (that can be broken when you attack them enough). Some things are particularly good at a certain stat (enhance ability), but can likewise be flustered after a bit of damage. They can start the encounter with these bonuses, or use them during it, depending on what seems better. Cantrips and lvl1/2 spells let you redesign encounters quickly and easily to add a bit of flavour, and give the party combat objectives.

Pretty much any lvl1/3 class ability can be thrown on any creature to make them feel more unique too. Describe it how you want. Packs of things can have SA if they're good at damage, or swipe Pack Tactics from the wolves for them, so that the party has to try and split them up. Give a boss AS for a vital moment, some BM dice, or Rage. Bonus action dash? Yeah, why not....

You can also give any creature a PC race's advantages, including stat boosts if necessary, if you want to make a slightly altered creature. This doesn't necessarily make them a Half Orc or Halfling or anything. It's just an easy/lazy template to slap on top of anything, providing easier characterization of a particular creature. Think of it as a tankier or more cunning or quicker variation of the basic creature, with a few little bonuses to different areas. Quick, easy, doesn't have to make sense. All attacks are "weapon attacks" for skills that refer to it, extra Con gives a reasonable amount of extra HP, Str/Dex might give +to-hit/damage or AC, other stats boost innate skills. Giant wolves from the plains/forests are quick and stealthy (Wood Elf), ones from the mountains can be tanky (Dwarf), ones from the jungle can be lucky and fearless (Halfling), ones from the underdark hit harder on crits and don't die immediately (HO), and trained/variant wolves can do anything (V.Human) You can even subtly alter your visual description of a creature to match the racial template applied (Halfling is smaller, WE is lithe, Dwarf is stocky, HO is brutish, V.Human is canny). Some have analogies for bonuses (Dwarf=+1AC, WE=+5 foot movement), but it's pretty easy to work out. Probably don't use the base movement speed, or any other particular bits of a racial template that seems too odd, unless you really want too. Is there any reason that some Giant Wolves don't breathe fire (Dragonborn template) or fly (Aarakocra template) in your world? Not really.... Other seemingly odd variations of wolves breathe frost or have wings, so why not yours, for a given CR? Easy/lazy templates to add to anything, providing bonuses (or stat alternatives) for slightly more novel variations of well known things. Think of them as being palette swapped enemies in a computer game. Mook mkII, for higher level areas.

Most of these are ribbons and don't change the CR of an encounter at all. +1/2CR to +1CR at most. Even the ones that you think should alter CR, often don't. A good party overcomes the extra abilities of your foes easily, but it was more interesting for them to do so, with very little extra work from you.


It's a lazy fallback, but a good one. Sometimes it makes the encounters harder, sometimes it's just for some nice extra flavour. Everything gives you a good reference of its power level, but the MM is just a shell to slap adornments on, for fun/interesting encounters and creatures. Party too powerful? Combat getting stale? Still want to use a creature type for your campaign but the MM says it's crap? Problem solved.

You never have to give "actual" class levels to anything, who wants to keep track of all that? Just relevant abilities and templates. Cherry pick whatever you want, cantrips, lvl1-2 spells, lvl1-3 class abilities, racial templates, even feats. Maybe not all at once, just whatever seems fun. Infinite variety. Way quicker, way easier, does the same thing as "fully/properly designed" encounters. Makes the MM actually seem like a good reference material for interesting encounters, rather than just vanilla stat blocks with basic descriptions.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 10:53:14 PM by sambojin »

Offline Power

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Rolling a boulder up a hill
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2016, 07:40:53 AM »
  • A ranger's unique role is a master of exploration.  So far that tends to be less useful and some of the Unearthed Arcana infringes on that, but nothing official.  Fighter and rogue tend to outperform them at archery roles due to raw power and mobility respectively.
There's not a lot of niche protection there, to be honest. The Bard can also infringe on their role as an archer simply by using Magical Secrets at 10 to swipe their Swift Quiver spell 7 levels before the Ranger gets it and have more spells per day to use it with too, although the Bard does not get Ranged Combat style. Their exploration perks are also limited to favored terrains as always.

Quote
  • A warlock's role tends to be infringed on when other charisma classes dip it.  It's most powerful unique stuff is available at levels 2 and 3.  This is not to say that warlock is bad, and full spellcasters actually playing to high levels that dip warlock are making a significant sacrifice in late game power for a slight gain at low levels.
With 3 levels of Warlock it's still possible to obtain 9th level spells at 20. Sorclock multiclasses are pretty common since those 2nd level Warlock slots provide a renewable source of sorcery points and the Sorcerer can get a heavy blasting combo going with those Warlock features along with utility from a Pact of the Tome.

Quote
  • Bards only step on the toes of the rogue at lower levels.  Past 11, rogues become incredibly consistent at no cost.  A bard would have to expend significant resources to be able to roll more dice to maybe reach that consistency.  In time-sensitive situations, the thief rogue especially outshines the bard at being skilled due to their action economy.
Bards cannot outperform Rogues at using Thieves' Tools so long as the Rogue puts his Expertise in it. Aside from that, levels 1-2 Rogue tops with Expertise. Level 3 Bard gets the same Expertise (except Bards can't get Expertise on Thieves' Tools) and 2nd level spells, which lets him cast Enhance Ability to give himself advantage on ability checks for the ability score of his choice for a full hour, at which point the Bard rivals the Rogue without effort and outshines the Rogue if he self-enhances. At level 11 the Rogue gets an equalizer in the form of Reliable Talent, which still gives a lower average roll than Enhance Ability, but if you only need a 10 to succeed it's the better option. Level 14 Lore Bards can add their Bardic Inspiration die on top if the result is still too low at which point the Bard is extremely unlikely to fail a roll if he's using Enhance Ability. I'm not sure how badly I would consider BI a significant resource since a Bard can restore BI with every short rest.

For the most part a Bard lacks the Rogue's tool proficiencies altogether, but an Urchin background will hand anyone the basic Rogue proficiencies (Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Thieves' Tools, Disguise Kit). It is also possible to spend training costs (250gp) to obtain new tool proficiencies with 250 days of downtime. So if you start a higher level character you could probably just mark that as backstory expenses to increase your tool proficiencies.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 03:44:48 PM by Power »

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2016, 09:58:03 AM »
  • A ranger's unique role is a master of exploration.  So far that tends to be less useful and some of the Unearthed Arcana infringes on that, but nothing official.  Fighter and rogue tend to outperform them at archery roles due to raw power and mobility respectively.
There's not a lot of niche protection there, to be honest. The Bard can also infringe on their role as an archer simply by using Magical Secrets at 10 to swipe their Swift Quiver spell 7 levels before the Ranger gets it and have more spells per day to use it with too, although the Bard does not get Ranged Combat style. Their exploration perks are also limited to favored terrains as always.

Quote
  • A warlock's role tends to be infringed on when other charisma classes dip it.  It's most powerful unique stuff is available at levels 2 and 3.  This is not to say that warlock is bad, and full spellcasters actually playing to high levels that dip warlock are making a significant sacrifice in late game power for a slight gain at low levels.
With 3 levels of Warlock it's still possible to obtain 9th level spells at 20. Sorclock multiclasses are pretty common since those 2nd level Warlock slots provide a renewable source of sorcery points and the Sorcerer can get a heavy blasting combo going with those Warlock features along with utility off with a Pact of the Tome.


Yeah you can do that with a bard, but why would you?  A bard has so many better options than being an archer.  A wizard can be a good blaster too but evocation is still one of the weakest wizard traditions.  If I wanted recurring bonus action damage with a magical secrets spell, I'd grab Bigby's Hand because it has increased options and scaling while operating off my primary ability score or Storm Sphere because it provides recurring aoe damage and some BFC, again operating off my primary ability score.  Regardless, I did not argue that the ranger's niche as an archer is protected.  There's no archer class just like there's no two-hander class or dual wielder class.

I hate that multiclass warlock argument, because at level 20, you're giving up a 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slot to average 15 more damage on your cantrip.  15 damage for a turn is a drop in the bucket at 20 compared to the way an extra 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell can swing a fight.  I stand by my evaluation that dipping warlock for optimized Eldritch Blast is a drop in power compared to just getting the extra slots.  If all you care about is damage and you casted 2 extra Disintegrates with the 6th and 7th level slots, you'd get 23d6+80 damage for an average of 160.5 damage.  How many times do you need to cast Eldritch Blast to make up for that?  Then account for how useful it is to do all that damage packed into one turn vs. the number of rounds it would take Eldritch Blast to catch up the total damage vs. Fire Bolt.  Sustained DPR is overvalued in a game where encounters end in 3-4 rounds.  If you're actually going to do turn by turn analysis and bring up quickened Eldritch Blast, be sure to compare 2 Eldritch Blasts to a quickened Disintegrate with Fire Bolt.  You have a lot of spell slots at 20th level.  If you're falling back on cantrips for so many rounds that Eldritch Blast vs. Fire Bolt is significant, your group has messed up somewhere.

If you're really dedicating your bard to being a skill monkey and you're willing to spend the resources, yeah, you can outdo a rogue.  But again, why would you?  Keep those bardic inspirations for Cutting Words.  Concentrate on something better than Enhance Ability.  I realize other people don't play the same way I run my games, but when you're going through a dungeon on initiative and you need to cover a lot of ground quickly because a boulder is rolling down the hall at you fast AND you need to get past the sealed door and some traps, you start to appreciate what Cunning Action allows a rogue to do under pressure that a bard just cannot.  Sure, raw numbers definitely go to the bard if you're always counting averages, but action economy and resource management favor the rogue.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 10:24:46 AM by TenaciousJ »
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2016, 10:14:27 AM »
quote is not modify
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2016, 01:04:19 PM »
Encounter level assumed to balanced with a party that has no magic items? What? Is the DM supposed to do extra work or the PCs supposed to have no material toys?

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2016, 01:27:00 PM »
It means if you use magic items, you can nudge encounter CR up or just accept that what you thought was a "medium" encounter will be "easy" depending on the quality of items you gave out.  The encounter size charts have difficulty levels, so it's not much more work.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2016, 11:17:22 AM »
Do you have to DM fiat/eyeball it, or is there a chart for how much WBL translates into what? Hmm both of those would be bad. Perhaps there's a simply mathematical rule/formula would be better.

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2016, 12:43:08 PM »
There's no WBL in 5e because it's balanced assuming no magic items.  Gold is a roleplay device.  Another way to look at it is that expected WBL is 0.  The flip side of this reality is that you no longer have to give out anything to keep the game balanced.  Magic items are now truly a reward for overcoming a great obstacle or exceptional roleplay.

Take a look at adventure modules for 5e.  Strahd is CR 15 in a module made to go to level 10, and the environmental advantages Strahd has make him stronger than CR 15 IMO, but I'll compare just to the written CR.  The few magical items available in the module make the final encounter with Strahd more feasible to win.  The Deadly threshhold for 4 level 10 PCs is 11,200 exp and Strahd is worth 13,000.

A weapon deemed magical with no numerical properties whatsoever is still something that changes the balance of the game.  If you find a sword that only has a magical property that makes it glow in the dark, it's still a powerful weapon because it overcomes lots of monsters' resistances to non-magical weapons.

This is the sort of discussion that makes me repeatedly say you should try out 5e as-is before you start conversions or start adding optional rules like magic items.  If you try to introduce a lot of stuff to the system it's not balanced around, then you should expect that you're unbalancing the system and that there's not a simple fix available.  The best advice I can give is to look at how the magic-item-enhanced output of your PCs compare to higher level PC capabilities with no items.  That can give you an idea of what level to rate your PCs at to gauge how large an experience point budget you should use for your encounters.  The above-referenced glowing magical sword with no other properties effectively doubles that PC's damage against something like a vampire.

Monsters are tailored around their CR, so you need to look at the DMG monster-building rules to figure out how each property contributes to a monster's CR if you're trying to make formulas.  Let's say you gave out a +2 weapon.  That effectively lowers all monster's AC by 2 against that PC.  The DMG says that a monster's defensive CR goes down by 1 for every 2 AC it is below the expected value for its CR.  Let's say that same PC has +2 armor.  That item effectively lowers all monster's attack bonuses by 2.  That lowers the monster's offensive CR by 1.  A monster's CR is the average of its offensive and defensive CR, so to this PC with a +2 weapon and +2 armor, all monsters are effectively 1 CR lower than printed.

Now let's take a look at what a glowing magical sword with no other magical properties.  Resistance to non-magical weapons grants an effective HP multiplier to monsters depending on their CR.  CR < 4 is x2, 5-10 is x1.5, 11-16 is x1.25, and 17+ is no modifier.  Let's look at what's expected for CR 15: 281-295 HP.  A CR 15 monster with resistance to non-magical weapons can have a HP range of about 225-236.  If the entire group bypasses that via glowing magical swords, that monster's HP range is around what's expected for CR 11.  Since a monster's final CR is an average of its offensive and defensive CR calculations, that monster's final CR only falls by 2 since the monster did not lose any offensive power due to the PCs' glowing magical swords.  This CR 15 is now effectively CR 13 to the group.

Compound that explanation with what I just demonstrated about a +2 weapon and a +2 armor.  A CR 15 that relies on resistance to non-magical weapons is now down to an effective CR 12.  Effective CR drops quickly using very basic magic items.

I'm not arguing you should not give out magic items.  However, if you try to recreate the christmas trees of 3.5 and 4e, you're going to destroy the balance of the game, relying more and more on DM fiat to figure out what's actually appropriate for a group.

Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Advice on a 3.5/Pathfinder fan jumping to 5th?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2016, 01:58:46 AM »
That's actually a really solid explanation on what might seem like a frail CR system. It's logical, of course, but quite malleable. It might end up being better than 3e's due to how it was really just a giant compilation of centered sets and often a vague one at that. Do players ever find the CR system feeling weak or is it only an "under the hood" look from a more powerful, previous edition?

I always play games vanilla before trying to break/optimize them. I will of course play 5e vanilla the first time. That might not be for a while though. I'm still playing dark souls 1 rather than 2 or 3 yet.

I'm going to push you a bit, if you don't mind. Why is it that so many people have a problem with "the Christmas tree" effect in 3e. I always found that an odd title for characters that will have a 20 item groups max: held things (rods,etc), weapon(s), shield(s), armor, helmet, visor, amulet, cape, shirt, gloves, bracers, belt, rings (x5 if you go extra rings+hand of glory), boots, backpack (often extra-dimensional like handy haversack, etc) and unslotted things (grafts, ioun stones, or gaining a magical location benefit). The miscellaneous things that they don't really "do" much with like paying for a ferry, buying food, or purchasing a mundane spell focus often are small enough to not really need to be tracked other putting a note with the other things in your sack. I track them, but many DMs don't -- like favored classes or encumbrance. 5e has both a set of non-attunement item(s) and a set of 3 attunement items. So it looks like all they did was scale it down to 4ish, but still leave open the possibility of as many entries on that 4th list as a 3e player might have. Why do people consider it better? It seems more swept under the rug to me right now.

Are magic items really just a game of "Mother May I", or are their guaranteed ways of getting certain ones, even if you can't always assure it? Consider how certain unpriced items in 3e were known to exist in certain places.

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA