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Gaming Discussion => D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder => Topic started by: Libertad on September 28, 2012, 12:21:52 AM

Title: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on September 28, 2012, 12:21:52 AM
Thanks grognards.txt!

Monkey Lunge (Combat)
Paizo Peripheral

This content is from material published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, but is not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.
You can quickly recover from your lunges, helping you to avoid counterattacks.
Prerequisites: Lunge, Acrobatics 1 rank.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can use the Lunge feat to increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn, without suffering a penalty to your AC. You cannot use this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load.

Normal: You take a -2 penalty to your AC until your next turn when making a lunge attack.

Waaaahhhh... (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monkey-lunge-combat)
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Solo on September 28, 2012, 12:41:52 AM
HAHAHA
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: FlaminCows on September 28, 2012, 01:00:31 AM
Right up there with Prone Shooter, which negates the attack penalty for firing a crossbow while prone.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Keldar on September 28, 2012, 01:22:58 AM
Piazo sure gets what was wrong with 3E.  Yup yup.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Libertad on September 28, 2012, 01:31:10 AM
The sad part is that I get what Paizo was doing, but they were soooooo close!

Adding 5 feet to your reach can be great for melee builds, especially Spiked Chain and reach weapon guys.  The problem is that the Feat doesn't do anything!  If it was a Swift action, it would be a pretty good choice.

When people pointed out broken stuff in the playtest, they did occasionally respond so I know they have it in them.  They're like Icarus, flying so close to the sun they come crashing down.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Vasja on September 28, 2012, 01:51:45 AM
This feat in action. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IACbXkOkMSc)
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on September 28, 2012, 01:57:10 AM
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elephant-stomp-combat

(click to show/hide)

I probably shouldn't have bothered bolding anything, the entire paragraph is basically pure fail.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Solo on September 28, 2012, 02:02:30 AM
Why wouldn't you just... attack them?
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Libertad on September 28, 2012, 02:49:58 AM
Noticed that both feats are from the same product: Sargava the Lost Colony.

Is that sourcebook a collection of Pathfinder's worst feats or something?
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: ImperatorK on September 28, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
Thanks grognards.txt!

Monkey Lunge (Combat)
Paizo Peripheral

This content is from material published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, but is not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.
You can quickly recover from your lunges, helping you to avoid counterattacks.
Prerequisites: Lunge, Acrobatics 1 rank.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can use the Lunge feat to increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn, without suffering a penalty to your AC. You cannot use this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load.

Normal: You take a -2 penalty to your AC until your next turn when making a lunge attack.

Waaaahhhh... (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monkey-lunge-combat)
I would like to point out that Monkey Lunge only removes the -2 penalty from the Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final) feat that actually gives you the 5 feet of additional reach. And doesn't "until the end of your turn" mean that you still get the benefit on AoOs?
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Empirate on September 28, 2012, 05:12:12 AM
It's a bit hard to rely solely on AoOs, especially in PF (no Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit, no Stand Still, Trip sucks etc.). Giving up your standard action in order to... stand there a little more ready doesn't strike me as a viable way to stab faces.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: ImperatorK on September 28, 2012, 06:18:42 AM
I think it's a typo and they meant for it to remove the penalty but limit you to just a standard attack.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: RobbyPants on September 28, 2012, 07:52:59 AM
Right up there with Prone Shooter, which negates the attack penalty for firing a crossbow while prone.

(click to show/hide)
No, it's worse than that. Prone Shooter lets you do something you can already do without the feat, so you just waste a feat.

This feat makes it so you literally do nothing with your round (other than move)... and you wasted a feat. You're literally better off simply using the prerequisite Lunge than to use Monkey Lunge. Monkey Lunge makes it so you can't attack that round.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on September 28, 2012, 12:52:10 PM
It's a bit hard to rely solely on AoOs, especially in PF (no Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit, no Stand Still, Trip sucks etc.). Giving up your standard action in order to... stand there a little more ready doesn't strike me as a viable way to stab faces.

Except both Lunge and Monkey Lunge stipulate until the end of your turn.  So you don't HAVE that reach to make AoOs with, other than the rare few that may come up during your turn.  Which are usually caused by you doing things like tripping (provokes AoO w/ Imp. Trip), which will be rather hard when you just lost your standard action.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on September 28, 2012, 12:54:53 PM
Why wouldn't you just... attack them?

Yes, that's why it's so much fail, basically.  You spend all those feats to be an uber juggernaut bitch, use a standard or charge (ie, basically all your offensive action for the round) to over run, win it by 5+, which is HARD to do in PF.... and throw away the normal benefit (moving through space and making them prone) in order to waste your immediate action to make an attack w/ a limited weapon selection.  Instead of attacking / vital striking / charging (pouncing) / full attacking / etc... to begin with.
And keeping your immediate!

God, this is like "explaining the joke".
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: phaedrusxy on September 28, 2012, 01:19:47 PM
Oh my god. My head almost imploded. I need to go scrub my brain now.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: zook1shoe on September 28, 2012, 01:46:33 PM
i don't even play pathfinder and my brain hurts from those  :twitch
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Libertad on September 28, 2012, 04:14:21 PM
Hey guys, look what else I found with grognards.txt's help:

Helpless Prisoner

You can talk your way out of most restraints.

Prerequisites: Bluff 5 ranks, Escape Artist 1 rank, gnome.

Benefit: When you are restrained or imprisoned, you can make a Bluff check against any one creature within 30 feet in which you emphasize both your own harmlessness and the pain or inconvenience of your current condition. If the creature knows you are dangerous, it adds a +4 bonus to its Sense Motive check. If you win the check, the target does something intended to make you a little more comfortable—or at least shut you up—that gives you a +5 bonus on your next Escape Artist check.

Special: At the GM’s discretion, an especially evil or cruel creature may gain a +2 bonus to its Sense Motive check to resist this ability. If it succeeds, it does something to make your bindings even more secure and less comfortable, giving you a –5 penalty on all Escape Artist checks made in those particular bonds.

This time it's from the Gnomes of Golarian sourcebook!

And not a feat, but a trait which actually makes your character worse at what he does:

Researching the Blot

You may or may not be seeking membership into Riddleport’s most prestigious magical guild, the Order of Cyphers, but you certainly have heard their call for aid in determining the nature of the strange shadow in the sky above Riddleport. You arrived in town several days ago and had some issues with security and safety at several inns before you finally settled on the Gold Goblin; you’ve been staying there as a guest for several days now, and the owner, Saul Vancaskerkin, seems like a nice guy. He’s even given you a pass to attend the gambling tournament he’s about to throw—you’re not sure how into gambling you’ll be, but perhaps there’ll be some visitors from out of town you can talk to about the strange shadow in the sky. At the very least, you’re hoping someone at the tourney will be into magic—there’s not really enough folk in this town who seem all that interested in magic, you’ve found. Your interest in magic dates back quite far, and as a result, you’ve developed a knack for identifying common magical items at a glance.

Benefit: You can use Spellcraft to identify magic items in the same way you can use Spellcraft to identify a potion. The DC to identify a magic item is equal to 20 + the item’s caster level.

Guess what?  In Pathfinder, the DC to identify a magic item is 15 + the item's caster level.  Not only does it give you an ability which you can already do with Spellcraft, it increases the DC.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on September 28, 2012, 04:44:07 PM
Yeah, Helpless Prisoner and Death or Glory are also tremendous low points.  People claim 3E is more trap laiden, but it is actuall PF that literally punishes you for making the wrong feat choice.  In 3E, the punishment was only getting 3 measly hp."  In PF, you're actually harmed.

Researching the Blot...
If that was written for a 3E D&D supplement, back when spellcraft didn't let you ID items on its own, I could see that being useful.  But since it uses the PF trait system...I doubt that's the case... Wow... 
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Libertad on September 28, 2012, 04:51:52 PM
Yeah, Helpless Prisoner and Death or Glory are also tremendous low points.  People claim 3E is more trap laiden, but it is actuall PF that literally punishes you for making the wrong feat choice.  In 3E, the punishment was only getting 3 measly hp."  In PF, you're actually harmed.

In hindsight, Monte Cook's Ivory Tower Game Design article doesn't seem so bad.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: zook1shoe on September 28, 2012, 05:21:39 PM
some of these feats seem to be even worse than the commoner flaws, like Dead or Peasant Hat :-p
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: jetstrike on November 07, 2012, 02:48:41 PM
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elephant-stomp-combat

(click to show/hide)

I probably shouldn't have bothered bolding anything, the entire paragraph is basically pure fail.


Overrun is an action which can be done as part of a charge. Elephant stomp lets you make an attack with the mount whilst charging. It is mostly used for a charge build character like a paladin.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Empirate on November 08, 2012, 04:30:21 AM
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elephant-stomp-combat

(click to show/hide)

I probably shouldn't have bothered bolding anything, the entire paragraph is basically pure fail.


Overrun is an action which can be done as part of a charge. Elephant stomp lets you make an attack with the mount whilst charging. It is mostly used for a charge build character like a paladin.

What? Can't you already attack with the mount when charging?

Quote from: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

This pretty clearly implies that your mount can charge, and you have the option of also making an attack at the end of its charge, which then functions as if you had charged yourself. If your mount can charge, it also gains an attack at the end of its charge.

Elephant Stomp just wastes a feat, and that's that.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats thread
Post by: McBeardly on November 08, 2012, 05:31:14 AM
This is not to defend paizo for being incompetent (lord knows there are enough idiots doing that on their boards), but I think the intent of elephant stop is that your overrun knocks them down then you attack instead of moving past them. I say this simply because the flavor text references your opponent being downed. Then it's just a less useful version of tripping that doesn't require combat expertise.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats thread
Post by: Empirate on November 08, 2012, 09:49:12 AM
If that's the intent, then they should try proofreading from time to time: "...instead of moving through your opponent's space and knocking her prone..."
Clear-cut. Unfortunately.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats thread
Post by: zook1shoe on November 08, 2012, 10:26:34 AM
It should have read "in addition to" is what empirate was trying to say
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats thread
Post by: Libertad on March 20, 2013, 04:25:41 PM
Alternate class feature for Barbarian, replaces Fast Movement:

Quote
Raging Drunk (Ex)

While raging, the drunken brute can drink a potion, or a tankard of ale or similar quantity of alcohol, as a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A potion has its normal effect, while an alcoholic drink allows the barbarian to maintain her rage that round without expending a round of rage for the day (instead of the alcohol’s normal effects). For each alcoholic drink consumed while raging, the barbarian is nauseated for 1 round when her rage expires, in addition the normal fatigue that follows a rage. Tireless rage does not negate this nauseated condition but the internal fortitude rage power does.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats thread
Post by: rasmuswagner on March 21, 2013, 02:00:29 AM
Alternate class feature for Barbarian, replaces Fast Movement:

Raging Drunk (Ex)

That's not terrible, if you don't have multiple attacks anyway. There are other abilities that key off in-combat drinking. Most (but, iirc, not all of them) are terrible.
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Yirrare on March 21, 2013, 06:46:34 AM
Yeah, Helpless Prisoner and Death or Glory are also tremendous low points.  People claim 3E is more trap laiden, but it is actuall PF that literally punishes you for making the wrong feat choice.  In 3E, the punishment was only getting 3 measly hp."  In PF, you're actually harmed.

Researching the Blot...
If that was written for a 3E D&D supplement, back when spellcraft didn't let you ID items on its own, I could see that being useful.  But since it uses the PF trait system...I doubt that's the case... Wow...
I seem to miss something. How is helpless prisoner always bad?
It's almost never useful, but you make it sound like it actually makes my character worse (as in, I'd be better off gaining no feat than gaining helpless prisoner).
Could someone clarify/point out what I am missing please?

Best Regards
Yirrare
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats thread
Post by: Prime32 on March 21, 2013, 01:22:48 PM
Raging Drunk can be improved by the Fast Drinker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fast-drinker) feat... at least it could if it wasn't for the monk/barbarian alignment restrictions. The there's Good For What Ails You (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/good-for-what-ails-you-ex) and the Tankard of the Drunken Hero (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/tankard-of-the-drunken-hero).
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats thread
Post by: Nytemare3701 on March 21, 2013, 01:36:43 PM
Quote
Raging Drunk (Ex)

While raging, the drunken brute can drink a potion, or a tankard of ale or similar quantity of alcohol, as a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A potion has its normal effect, while an alcoholic drink allows the barbarian to maintain her rage that round without expending a round of rage for the day (instead of the alcohol’s normal effects). For each alcoholic drink consumed while raging, the barbarian is nauseated for 1 round when her rage expires, in addition the normal fatigue that follows a rage. Tireless rage does not negate this nauseated condition but the internal fortitude rage power does.


Emphasis mine

Quote
fast drinker
Drinking strong alcohol to gain temporary ki, takes a swift action rather than a standard action.

Entirely stupid, but the drunken ki feature is a special action taking a standard action, while the drunken rager ability is a completely different special action (taking a move action). Fast Drinker does not apply to drunken rager, as much as it really should.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats thread
Post by: Halinn on March 22, 2013, 10:21:02 AM
Raging Drunk is pretty worthless as written, but it's a nice starting point for arguing with your DM to make Quick Draw turn it into a free action, in which case it becomes an okay option (you shouldn't run out of barbarian rages after level 5 or so anyways, but it's nice not having to worry about counting rounds)
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on March 24, 2013, 01:50:21 AM
Quote
CREATE PIT
School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (miniature shovel costing 10 gp)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect 10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole, 10 ft. deep/2 levels
Duration 1 round + 1 round/level
Saving Throw Reflex negates; Spell Resistance no

You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extradimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size. Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material. You can create the pit in the deck of a ship as easily as in a dungeon floor or the ground of a forest. Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space. In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it. Creatures subjected to an effect intended to push them into the pit (such as bull rush) do not get a saving throw to avoid falling in if they are affected by the pushing effect.

Creatures who fall into the pit take falling damage as normal. The pit's coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25. When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round.

Still pissed about Glitterdust getting nerfed?  Here, have a new Save or Suck spell to make up for it.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Garryl on March 24, 2013, 02:04:49 AM
Extradimensional space? Your targets better hope they aren't using Handy Haversacks!
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on March 24, 2013, 10:34:55 AM
I have actually seen Paizils argue that, as an extradimensional space, you can't teleport out of it.  Which may in fact be true, but just makes the spell completely ridiculous.  Becomes a "have flight, or GTFO" ability at that point.

EDIT: I suppose Helpless Prisoner doesn't technically make you worse day-to-day and is just literally useless instead of 3E toughness which is "useless."  When I say a feat is worse than useless, I work with the assumption that someone who takes it actually wants to / tries to use it.  I really don't think anyone intentionally declares, "My character doesn't NEED feats, so I'm going to take this one that does nothing!"  Now, there is the "spell mastery argument" (a DM of someone w/ SM gets the idea to steal the spellbook / thinks its less harsh to do so and is thus encouraged to do so; so for a PC w/ helpless prisoner, the DM is more encouraged subconsciously to put the PC in a prisoner status), but leaving that aside...  If a PC *were* captured, and *did* have this feat, and *did not* realize how bad it is, he would probably try to use it.  And then the feat would become worse than not having it at all.

That was my reasoning.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Yirrare on March 25, 2013, 05:24:57 AM
I have actually seen Paizils argue that, as an extradimensional space, you can't teleport out of it.  Which may in fact be true, but just makes the spell completely ridiculous.  Becomes a "have flight, or GTFO" ability at that point.

EDIT: I suppose Helpless Prisoner doesn't technically make you worse day-to-day and is just literally useless instead of 3E toughness which is "useless."  When I say a feat is worse than useless, I work with the assumption that someone who takes it actually wants to / tries to use it.  I really don't think anyone intentionally declares, "My character doesn't NEED feats, so I'm going to take this one that does nothing!"  Now, there is the "spell mastery argument" (a DM of someone w/ SM gets the idea to steal the spellbook / thinks its less harsh to do so and is thus encouraged to do so; so for a PC w/ helpless prisoner, the DM is more encouraged subconsciously to put the PC in a prisoner status), but leaving that aside...  If a PC *were* captured, and *did* have this feat, and *did not* realize how bad it is, he would probably try to use it.  And then the feat would become worse than not having it at all.

That was my reasoning.
Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

Best Regards
Yirrare
Title: Re: Look at this Pathfinder feat I found!
Post by: Snowbluff on April 23, 2013, 12:56:32 AM
Why wouldn't you just... attack them?

Yes, that's why it's so much fail, basically.  You spend all those feats to be an uber juggernaut bitch, use a standard or charge (ie, basically all your offensive action for the round) to over run, win it by 5+, which is HARD to do in PF.... and throw away the normal benefit (moving through space and making them prone) in order to waste your immediate action to make an attack w/ a limited weapon selection.  Instead of attacking / vital striking / charging (pouncing) / full attacking / etc... to begin with.
And keeping your immediate!

God, this is like "explaining the joke".
It gets worse.

Improved Overrun is an awful feat if you just want to get around the guy. Normally when you overrun the guy has an option to just let you run past. This would let you get somewhere you need to be without risking your movement on a roll every time. Sure, it's up to the DM how often this would happen, but it kind of let's you get around a lot more easily. The feat says the person has a make an opposed check every time.

The extra feat you showed us increases the chance you will not get past the person you are trying to overrun even further.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on November 05, 2013, 08:41:53 PM
Quote
Caustic Slur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general)
Prerequisites: Bluff 1 rank, favored enemy class feature, gnome.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a Bluff check against one sort of favored enemy. Any creature of that type within 60 feet of you must make a Will saving throw or become angered. If an affected creature attacks you, it's treated as if it were using Power Attack (taking a penalty on attack rolls but gaining a bonus on damage rolls). If the creature already has the power attack feat, the attack penalty increases by 1 and the damage bonus increases by 2. These modifiers end when combat ends. This ability does not work on creatures that cannot understand you, though sometimes a simple gesture is sufficient for an intelligent opponent to catch your gist regardless of any language barrier.

So you use this feat and grant your enemy the benefit of Power Attack.  I don't know what to say.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Sinfire Titan on November 05, 2013, 08:50:54 PM
Quote
Caustic Slur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general)
Prerequisites: Bluff 1 rank, favored enemy class feature, gnome.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a Bluff check against one sort of favored enemy. Any creature of that type within 60 feet of you must make a Will saving throw or become angered. If an affected creature attacks you, it's treated as if it were using Power Attack (taking a penalty on attack rolls but gaining a bonus on damage rolls). If the creature already has the power attack feat, the attack penalty increases by 1 and the damage bonus increases by 2. These modifiers end when combat ends. This ability does not work on creatures that cannot understand you, though sometimes a simple gesture is sufficient for an intelligent opponent to catch your gist regardless of any language barrier.

So you use this feat and grant your enemy the benefit of Power Attack.  I don't know what to say.

Saw the thread on GitP about this one, holy shit this is a stupid feat.

How did Paizo ever compete with 4E again?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 05, 2013, 09:06:36 PM
Quote
Caustic Slur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general)
Prerequisites: Bluff 1 rank, favored enemy class feature, gnome.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a Bluff check against one sort of favored enemy. Any creature of that type within 60 feet of you must make a Will saving throw or become angered. If an affected creature attacks you, it's treated as if it were using Power Attack (taking a penalty on attack rolls but gaining a bonus on damage rolls). If the creature already has the power attack feat, the attack penalty increases by 1 and the damage bonus increases by 2. These modifiers end when combat ends. This ability does not work on creatures that cannot understand you, though sometimes a simple gesture is sufficient for an intelligent opponent to catch your gist regardless of any language barrier.

So you use this feat and grant your enemy the benefit of Power Attack.  I don't know what to say.

So rangers now exist to free up feat slots for the rest of the world (including party, potentially)? Wonderful. /sarcasm
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on November 05, 2013, 09:26:33 PM

Saw the thread on GitP about this one, holy shit this is a stupid feat.

How did Paizo ever compete with 4E again?

Because some people hate 4th Edition's aesthetics so much that they'd rather stick with Paizo, "who are more in touch with gamers  than those corporate fat cats at WotC!"

That last bit's exaggeration on my part, but not by much.  While 4th Edition has it's faults, it was revolutionary for trying to fix some major problems of previous Editions.  But those problems were such a large part of D&D that it felt "wrong" to a lot of people.  Hell, gamers went nuts over the "Wizard getting nerfed" and the Fighter getting powers.  3rd Edition players, even, who should know better than anyone else!

Now I was reading a thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=28162) over at The RPG Site, speculating what would have happened if Pathfinder went farther in fixing the Edition's problems.  A few folks thought that the game would've become a niche market, only for another 3E retroclone to take their place in popularity.

I don't know if that's 100% accurate (Paizo's a very well-received company), but there are quite a few Pathfinder fans who wouldn't have jumped board otherwise.  Pathfinder's definitely got a target market, but it's not for min-maxers and people interested in fixing the worst of 3.X's faults.  A lot of the fanbase are folks who preferred 3rd Edition for familiarity, no problem with that.  But then there's the Wizard Supremacy advocates who just have to have their reality-breaking shenanigans, and the reactionary gamers who think that taking some inspiration from MMORPGs is a horrible betrayal.  And apparently they're a significant enough segment of the D&D fanbase that WotC is taking steps backwards to bring them back into the fold with Next.

There's also the OGL, which is less restrictive than the GSL.  Leading to more 3rd Party support, which makes Pathfinder seem more accessible and widespread.  Although I don't know how much of a role that plays, considering that the Pathfinder SRD's free and their books are hideously expensive.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: LordBlades on November 06, 2013, 02:00:25 AM


Saw the thread on GitP about this one, holy shit this is a stupid feat.

How did Paizo ever compete with 4E again?

Pathfinder gave people that wanted more D&D 3.5, more D&D 3.5.

For all it's failing, D&D 3.5 is a pretty good (And popular system), and has a quite different target audience than 4E, so there is still a market for offering a supported 3.5 product.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ImperatorK on November 06, 2013, 04:52:44 AM
Saw the thread on GitP about this one, holy shit this is a stupid feat.

How did Paizo ever compete with 4E again?
It's not boring or bland?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: King Kamor on November 06, 2013, 12:36:33 PM
Caustic Slur

(text)

So you use this feat and grant your enemy the benefit of Power Attack.  I don't know what to say.

I realize that Paizo definitely didn't mean for this to happen, but if your DM works with 3.5/Pathfinder transparency (able to use both systems with DM permission) then this feat works kind of okay with Elusive Target.

(click to show/hide)

And if your DM uses the Pathfinder version of Dodge, then it technically affects everyone using Power Attack on you. It might be good to help dodge one or two attacks if you're going for a dodge-tank sort of ranger. Who knows?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending it. By itself, within just the Pathfinder system, the feat is pretty useless and can easily backfire. Additionally, the favored enemy requirement severely hinders its usefulness, depending on the setting. If it put the enemy into a frenzy of some kind then that would be more flavorful and fun, I think.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: akalsaris on November 06, 2013, 09:10:33 PM
Caustic Slur

(text)

So you use this feat and grant your enemy the benefit of Power Attack.  I don't know what to say.

I realize that Paizo definitely didn't mean for this to happen, but if your DM works with 3.5/Pathfinder transparency (able to use both systems with DM permission) then this feat works kind of okay with Elusive Target.

(click to show/hide)

And if your DM uses the Pathfinder version of Dodge, then it technically affects everyone using Power Attack on you. It might be good to help dodge one or two attacks if you're going for a dodge-tank sort of ranger. Who knows?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending it. By itself, within just the Pathfinder system, the feat is pretty useless and can easily backfire. Additionally, the favored enemy requirement severely hinders its usefulness, depending on the setting. If it put the enemy into a frenzy of some kind then that would be more flavorful and fun, I think.

Good thinking!  Man, I'd love to one day make the 1 character in the world who actually took Caustic Slur and wasn't worse off for it :P
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Garryl on November 06, 2013, 09:48:25 PM
Caustic Slur

(text)

So you use this feat and grant your enemy the benefit of Power Attack.  I don't know what to say.

I realize that Paizo definitely didn't mean for this to happen, but if your DM works with 3.5/Pathfinder transparency (able to use both systems with DM permission) then this feat works kind of okay with Elusive Target.

(click to show/hide)

And if your DM uses the Pathfinder version of Dodge, then it technically affects everyone using Power Attack on you. It might be good to help dodge one or two attacks if you're going for a dodge-tank sort of ranger. Who knows?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending it. By itself, within just the Pathfinder system, the feat is pretty useless and can easily backfire. Additionally, the favored enemy requirement severely hinders its usefulness, depending on the setting. If it put the enemy into a frenzy of some kind then that would be more flavorful and fun, I think.

Elusive Target doesn't work with PF's version of Dodge because you never designate foes to be affected by it.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Squirel_Dude on November 06, 2013, 10:20:22 PM
Saw the thread on GitP about this one, holy shit this is a stupid feat.

How did Paizo ever compete with 4E again?
Because they made their product essentially free to play and enjoy.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: King Kamor on November 08, 2013, 04:55:06 PM
Elusive Target doesn't work with PF's version of Dodge because you never designate foes to be affected by it.
I know, that's why I said it could work with 3.5/Pathfinder transparency. If a feat's broken, then the DM might as well fix it and make some new rules to make it work, if a player thinks the feat sounds fun and wants to use it. Dodge is relatively useful in PF so we always use it in my games, so it would be easy to just replace the Elusive Target text "target designated by Dodge" with "target designated for the use of this tactical maneuver." In the case with Caustic Slur, the target would be "that guy I just pissed off."
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Aliek on November 13, 2013, 11:58:38 AM
Problem is it would be at most a gimmick - 3 feats, a standard action and a bluff check, which may  fail, to get effectivelly 3 ac or so. And its even race and class restricted! And you can only use it against favored enemies!

Also, you cant use it on party members, since the power  attack only works when attacking you.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Prime32 on November 16, 2013, 04:42:25 PM
So...
Quote from: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9rdk
You can't "re-skin" the ability's game mechanics
Pathfinder has officially banned refluffing.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: phaedrusxy on November 16, 2013, 04:44:39 PM
So...
Quote from: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9rdk
You can't "re-skin" the ability's game mechanics
Pathfinder has officially banned refluffing.
Those idiots...
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on November 16, 2013, 05:19:11 PM
So...
Quote from: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9rdk
You can't "re-skin" the ability's game mechanics
Pathfinder has officially banned refluffing.
Those idiots...

Yet one more thing 13th Age (and a smorgasboard of other games) has over them.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 16, 2013, 05:33:43 PM
I'm not sure they've banned refluffing as a whole, so much as refluffing that would free up your hands, since it's talking about rearranging claw attacks.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on January 18, 2014, 12:51:51 PM
Bumping this thread to commemorate the official death of the rogue class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder).

While you could legitimately argue the rogue was dead on arrival when PF launched (thanks to the nerfs to class skills, tumble DC, flasks, and obtaining sneak attack; or the fact that Bard was basically "rogue, but better"), or that it was left comatose and then suffocated to death on its hospital bed by splat book archetypes (Vivisectionist Alchemist, Sandman Bard, Trapper Ranger, Archaeologist Bard, etc...), or even by the ultimate stake to the heart, Flanking Foil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/flanking-foil-combat)...

For some, the fact that "only like half a dozen or so classes" could obsolete the rogue meant the rogue was still alive.  Or in some weird, fragile state between living and dead.  Even if the only purpose the rogue had by that point was "most expendable party member to go monkey with the traps."  But now, paizo has seen fit to finally put the resilient little bastard out of his misery once and for all.  Not even thinking Rogue deserved the dignity of being replaced by an entire feat, or to show some respect by not blatantly re-using the same name, the day has finally come.

May you rest in peace, Rogue class.  It's hard to believe that only one edition ago you were one of the best non-caster classes in the game and my personal favorite to play as.  Your swift fall from grace and vicious demise are proof that Paizo truly is capable of great (and terrible) things!
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Prime32 on January 23, 2014, 11:57:54 AM
Goodbye Crane Wing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327113)
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on January 23, 2014, 01:54:56 PM
Goodbye Crane Wing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327113)

Rest in peace.  I've noticed that many of these nerfs are done specifically when niche min-max builds spring up taking advantage of the feat/archetype.


Just a thought, if one were to reverse the errata on all the mundane/non-primary caster options, how much would the power level of martials rise?  A little?  A lot?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on January 23, 2014, 06:18:52 PM
Un-fucking believable, the monk nerfs never end!  It's more than a nerf... they took a very good feat for a very horrible combat style (1H free or completely unarmed, pick your poison) and turned it into a completely worthless feat not worth taking, ever.  Well done, SKR, well done.

Just a thought, if one were to reverse the errata on all the mundane/non-primary caster options, how much would the power level of martials rise?  A little?  A lot?

A little.  It's still be a giant disparity, but at least the martials could feel useful sometimes, other than specific tricked out builds (that haven't been nerfed yet themselves) to min/max dps.  Likewise if you were to undo all the caster buffs of PF.  I mean, then you'd be back at 3E level "balance."  A noticeable improvement, but still a tiny one.

And I mean, there are specific exceptions and a lot depends on what level you can "start" at, etc... Like... pre-nerf, a level 20 Monk with Cloud Step could Air Walk infinite distance as a move action infinite times per day.  That's pretty damn powerful and useful.  But it doesn't help at all the first 19 levels of monk you have to suck down to get there.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Prime32 on January 23, 2014, 06:44:49 PM
Is there any compilation of these pre-nerf versions out there? I know all the (3+ability mod)/day abilities were originally at will...
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on January 23, 2014, 06:48:29 PM
Is there any compilation of these pre-nerf versions out there? I know all the (3+ability mod)/day abilities were originally at will...

I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was an "errata" compilation out there.  Perhaps one could reverse-engineer from there.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: oslecamo on January 23, 2014, 06:56:59 PM
A little.  It's still be a giant disparity, but at least the martials could feel useful sometimes, other than specific tricked out builds (that haven't been nerfed yet themselves) to min/max dps.  Likewise if you were to undo all the caster buffs of PF.  I mean, then you'd be back at 3E level "balance."  A noticeable improvement, but still a tiny one.

Excuse me, but even tough PF does gives a lot of buffs to spellcasters, the end result is still weaker than a 3E caster.

Why? Because shapechange (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shapechange) and wish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wish) that's why. They may be just two spells, but they were two spells behind pretty much all of the top borked magic. PF Wish no longer can create magic items, and PF shapechange no longer allows you to cherry pick abilities from any monster from any book. And those two combined were worth infinitely more than all of the boosts PF has given casters so far.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on January 23, 2014, 07:05:25 PM
Excuse me, but even tough PF does gives a lot of buffs to spellcasters, the end result is still weaker than a 3E caster.

Why? Because shapechange (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shapechange) and wish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wish) that's why. They may be just two spells, but they were two spells behind pretty much all of the top borked magic. PF Wish no longer can create magic items, and PF shapechange no longer allows you to cherry pick abilities from any monster from any book. And those two combined were worth infinitely more than all of the boosts PF has given casters so far.

But an awful lot of games (the majority I'd say) never even reach 17th level.

Overall Pathfinder spellcasters more than make up for this with new spells, not needing to pay experience points for magic items, increased hit die, and some favored class options for certain races which grant "one additional spell known" for spontaneous casters.

So if you don't ever reach the point where you get Shapechange and Wish, it wouldn't be unreasonable to view PF primary casters as being stronger.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: oslecamo on January 23, 2014, 07:22:33 PM
But an awful lot of games (the majority I'd say) never even reach 17th level.

If you need to wait that long to get either shapechange or wish, you're not really trying. There's the classic "call/summon and enslave low-level monster with that as an SLA", or you could just buy a scroll relatively cheap.

Oh, and gate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gate) got nerfed as well, so you don't get solars/great wyrms as your pets ridiculously early as well.

A few extra spell knowns and HP isn't really much when compared to the insanity you could pull out of those three spells as soon as the casters reached single-digits mid levels.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 23, 2014, 07:29:14 PM
They're buffed if you're not relying on cheese and things that the DM more or less has to let you pull off.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on January 24, 2014, 02:29:41 AM
But an awful lot of games (the majority I'd say) never even reach 17th level.

If you need to wait that long to get either shapechange or wish, you're not really trying. There's the classic "call/summon and enslave low-level monster with that as an SLA", or you could just buy a scroll relatively cheap.

Oh, and gate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gate) got nerfed as well, so you don't get solars/great wyrms as your pets ridiculously early as well.

A few extra spell knowns and HP isn't really much when compared to the insanity you could pull out of those three spells as soon as the casters reached single-digits mid levels.

Yeah, most of us don't play at Theoretical Optimization level bullshit.  While irritating, the blatantly lulzbroken stuff has never been the biggest issue, simply because they don't happen in real games.

PF buffed casters at the other, actual acceptable levels of optimization.  And I would argue Paragon Surge, especially once you can Spell Perfection it for free quicken, rivals those shenanigans from 3E anyway.  Cast all the spells!  On the fly!
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Sinfire Titan on January 24, 2014, 11:57:25 AM
If you need to wait that long to get either shapechange or wish, you're not really trying. There's the classic "call/summon and enslave low-level monster with that as an SLA", or you could just buy a scroll relatively cheap.

Oh, and gate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gate) got nerfed as well, so you don't get solars/great wyrms as your pets ridiculously early as well.

Game-breaking power isn't the only measuring stick, especially not the top 5% that only sees play in a very small subset of gamers. Nerfs like that are actually acceptable, but the fact is that Paizo buffed casters who are played in the 30%–85% range and then started nerfing the 50%–100% range on noncasters.

While it was difficult to play a noncaster in a mildly-optimized campaign in 3.5, PF is making it outright pointless by printing abilities that make it trivial to replace/negate the noncasters and nerfing their few good tricks.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Unbeliever on January 24, 2014, 12:52:03 PM
"Though shalt play a Wizard or a Cleric or a caster.  Anything else is an offense in our eyes." 

-- Paizo

Alternatively,

"It was really a mistake to even bother printing material for Monks, Rogues, Fighters, etc.  We are doing our best to rectify this mistake through errata." 

-- Paizo
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: oslecamo on January 24, 2014, 04:41:57 PM
Yeah, most of us don't play at Theoretical Optimization level bullshit.  While irritating, the blatantly lulzbroken stuff has never been the biggest issue, simply because they don't happen in real games.
They don't happen in 3.5 games because the DMs don't allow it for being too strong. Simple as that.

If you  consider that something on PF is too strong for casters, then you're completely free to nerf/ban it, just as 3.5 groups have banned wish/shapechange/gate/many others shenigans for years now.

PF buffed casters at the other, actual acceptable levels of optimization.  And I would argue Paragon Surge, especially once you can Spell Perfection it for free quicken, rivals those shenanigans from 3E anyway.  Cast all the spells!  On the fly!
Already doable in 3.5.

While it was difficult to play a noncaster in a mildly-optimized campaign in 3.5, PF is making it outright pointless by printing abilities that make it trivial to replace/negate the noncasters and nerfing their few good tricks.

You're totally right! PF druids rock on with Wildshape and magebred fleshrakers! Oh wait, they don't. Wildshape got nerfed, and druids no longer get super pets that get buffed for free every couple years.

PF mages pick Incantrix! Shadowcraft mage! Initiate of the sevenfold veil! Initiate of Mystra! Planar sheperd! With reserves of strength and earth power and divine metamagic and oh my, nope, just kidding. None of that in PF. And yes I had players requesting to use all of that over my many years as DM, and also saw groups using those (or at least gloating about having used those).

Playing noncasters in a "mildly-optimized" campaign in 3.5 already was pointless, it was just that DMs got used to hax down caster options and/or buff noncasters themselves to make it at least resemble like a fair game (or many times they just didn't care, or the caster focused on support, or whatever).

Really, please stop pretending that the zillion online guides about 3.5 caster tricks and combos suddenly disappeared. They're still there. They're still mostly on a completely diferent level than PF mages. And PF noncasters still can kill stuff that's vulnerable to HP damage with pointy sticks, which is what 3.5 noncasters were doing all along whitout houserule support or ToB.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 24, 2014, 04:46:49 PM
Yeah, most of us don't play at Theoretical Optimization level bullshit.  While irritating, the blatantly lulzbroken stuff has never been the biggest issue, simply because they don't happen in real games.
They don't happen in 3.5 games because the DMs don't allow it for being too strong. Simple as that.

If you  consider that something on PF is too strong for casters, then you're completely free to nerf/ban it, just as 3.5 groups have banned wish/shapechange/gate/many others shenigans for years now.

More or less everything aside from some of the spells, then?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 24, 2014, 05:58:24 PM
PF nerfed casters?
Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage), Spell Perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection), Arcane Concordance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/arcane-concordance), Stack Metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/general-feats/stack-metamagic),  Channel the Gift (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/channel-the-gift), Samsaran's Mystic Past Life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran), & Metamagic Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/general-feats/metamagic-focus) (3rd party, but pfsrd'd). And that's just from a previous Metamagic discussion we've had. Actual Spells & Class Abilities not withstanding. Spell wise, I know of PF's Wings of Cover (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/emergency-force-sphere), Call of the Void (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/call-the-void). And you can't forget about the ever useful Skinsend (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/skinsend) which combined with Alchemist & Touch Injection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/touch-injection) doubles as an offensive Spell. So yeah, I don't believe it. I haven't even read the PFSRD and can readily link those things.

Anyway, my contribution.
Quote from: Gods and Magic, page 56
Demon Mother's Mask

Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot Head; Price 3,600 gp; Weight 1 lb.

 Description:
 This primitive hyena-like mask is usually made of leather, but some are made of soft metal like copper or even carved out of the skull of an animal. You gain a +2 competence bonus on Handle Animal and Heal checks. You can smell when nearby creatures are in heat or otherwise especially fertile (creatures such as humans that can breed any time of year always smell fertile unless they are barren).

If Lamashtu is your patron, the mask counts as a holy symbol and a hole for a third eye appears in the mask’s forehead. You may use summon monster II once per day to summon a fiendish hyena, which obeys you as if you shared a common language. You may interbreed with animals that are within one size category of your size, usually creating (if you are a humanoid) animal-humanoid creatures such as gnolls or lizardfolk, or sometimes natural lycanthropes prone to live in hybrid form.
 
Construction
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, detect animals or plants, polymorph, summon monster II, creator must have at least 5 ranks in Handle Animal and Heal; Cost 1,800 gp
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Wrex on January 24, 2014, 06:07:35 PM
...I don't have the words to appropriately explain my levels of confusion and rage.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanshork on January 24, 2014, 06:14:06 PM
That is what I expect out of an item dedicated to Lamashtu.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Atmo on January 24, 2014, 07:19:07 PM
Anyway, my contribution.
Quote from: Gods and Magic, page 56
Demon Mother's Mask

Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot Head; Price 3,600 gp; Weight 1 lb.

 Description:
 This primitive hyena-like mask is usually made of leather, but some are made of soft metal like copper or even carved out of the skull of an animal. You gain a +2 competence bonus on Handle Animal and Heal checks. You can smell when nearby creatures are in heat or otherwise especially fertile (creatures such as humans that can breed any time of year always smell fertile unless they are barren).

If Lamashtu is your patron, the mask counts as a holy symbol and a hole for a third eye appears in the mask’s forehead. You may use summon monster II once per day to summon a fiendish hyena, which obeys you as if you shared a common language. You may interbreed with animals that are within one size category of your size, usually creating (if you are a humanoid) animal-humanoid creatures such as gnolls or lizardfolk, or sometimes natural lycanthropes prone to live in hybrid form.
 
Construction
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, detect animals or plants, polymorph, summon monster II, creator must have at least 5 ranks in Handle Animal and Heal; Cost 1,800 gp
I... er, you... like, this thing... Damn.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ImperatorK on January 24, 2014, 08:04:38 PM
Just one size category, tho? :(
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 24, 2014, 08:11:42 PM
Just one size category, tho? :(

What, you can't find Enlarge Person or something?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on January 25, 2014, 01:03:56 AM
3600gp? Holy shit!

does it give stats for the new breed?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: SolEiji on January 25, 2014, 01:44:14 AM
3600gp? Holy shit!

does it give stats for the new breed?

Clearly any result would have the Abomination subtype.  As would the player who bought the thing.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on January 25, 2014, 02:16:31 AM
Clearly Paizo's trying to expand into the Erotic Role-Play demographic. :P
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: TiaC on January 25, 2014, 04:34:28 AM
Not content with taking players from D&D's market share, Paizo has decided to make White Wolf its next target.

Also, Humans aren't fertile year-round at all.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on January 25, 2014, 02:25:00 PM
Also, Humans aren't fertile year-round at all.

Your knowledge of biology is interfering with my masturbation fantasies.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on January 25, 2014, 03:59:05 PM
Oh that's where Kung-Fu Panda comes from.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Maat Mons on January 25, 2014, 06:01:12 PM
The aquatic ancestry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/aquatic-ancestry-undine) feat gives the ability to breathe air, but is exclusive to a race that can already breathe air. 

I don't know if the writer forgot to put in text about gaining the aquatic subtype or just never actually read the description of the amphibious special quality. 
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: snakeman830 on January 25, 2014, 11:58:08 PM
The aquatic ancestry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/aquatic-ancestry-undine) feat gives the ability to breathe air, but is exclusive to a race that can already breathe air. 

I don't know if the writer forgot to put in text about gaining the aquatic subtype or just never actually read the description of the amphibious special quality.
To be fair, though, not all Undine can breathe air.  This is like a feat giving Dragonborn the ability to fly: some don't have a use for it, others do.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Maat Mons on January 26, 2014, 12:52:48 AM
What sort of undine would be unable to breathe air?  I only see one alternative racial trait that affects breathing, and it results in being able to breathe both air and water.  I'll admit I know little of Pathfinder in general or undine specifically.  I could be overlooking something basic. 
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: snakeman830 on January 26, 2014, 09:46:47 AM
Well, I suppose the other way to look at it is that the feat grants the Amphibious quality (not explicitly the ability to breathe air), and according to the PFSRD, that means the creature also has the Aquatic subtype.  Perhaps it gives the ability to breathe water, then?

Still not a particularly useful feat, but not worthless either.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on January 26, 2014, 06:45:47 PM
Bumping this thread to commemorate the official death of the rogue class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder).
That's a campaign trait. Most GMs won't allow you to take a campaign trait unless they are specifically running that campaign. Also, if you're looking for a trait that does in Rogues, here's a religion trait for you:
Quote
DEFENSIVE STRATEGIST
Source Faiths of Purity pg. 17
Category Religion
Requirement(s) Torag
Your knowledge of dwarven history and religion gives you an excellent mind for defensive strategy and tactics. You are not flat-footed when you are an unaware combatant. This includes a surprise round that you don’t get to act in, and before you get to act at the start of a battle.

Back to the thread subject for a moment, an enterprising poster has brought another terrible feat to my attention, so I am quoting it here:
Quote
COMBAT PATROL (COMBAT)
Source Advanced Player's Guide
You range across the battlefield, dealing with threats wherever they arise.

Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Mobility, base attack bonus +5.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Yep, you have to move for all of these attacks you're threatening, you give up a full-round action to set this up, and if you run out of speed you're done.

PF nerfed casters?
Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage), Spell Perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection), Arcane Concordance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/arcane-concordance), Stack Metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/general-feats/stack-metamagic),  Channel the Gift (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/channel-the-gift), Samsaran's Mystic Past Life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran), & Metamagic Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/general-feats/metamagic-focus) (3rd party, but pfsrd'd).
PFSRD does not mean "official" in the slightest. There's a ton of insane 3rd party shit on the pfsrd. I can probably shit out something retarded and get it listed on the PFSRD under "third party" too. We don't care about 3rd party content in Pathfinder unless it's Dreamscarred Press. "Stack Metamagic" and "Metamagic Focus" are both 3rd party content. They might as well not exist. If you're looking for broken Pathfinder spells, there's also shit like Source Severance and Bestow Grace of the Champion (crazy for Oracles).

Arcane Concordance is a bit ridiculous, but it's also a Bard only spell, and the Bard sucks at metamagic, barring the use of rods. I think the AoE aspect of it makes it a bit too good though.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Sinfire Titan on January 27, 2014, 11:11:10 AM
PF nerfed casters?
Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage), Spell Perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection), Arcane Concordance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/arcane-concordance), Stack Metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/general-feats/stack-metamagic),  Channel the Gift (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/channel-the-gift), Samsaran's Mystic Past Life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran), & Metamagic Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/general-feats/metamagic-focus) (3rd party, but pfsrd'd).
PFSRD does not mean "official" in the slightest. There's a ton of insane 3rd party shit on the pfsrd. I can probably shit out something retarded and get it listed on the PFSRD under "third party" too. We don't care about 3rd party content in Pathfinder unless it's Dreamscarred Press. "Stack Metamagic" and "Metamagic Focus" are both 3rd party content. They might as well not exist. If you're looking for broken Pathfinder spells, there's also shit like Source Severance and Bestow Grace of the Champion (crazy for Oracles).

Arcane Concordance is a bit ridiculous, but it's also a Bard only spell, and the Bard sucks at metamagic, barring the use of rods. I think the AoE aspect of it makes it a bit too good though.

Those two items being 3rd party does not invalidate SorO's point. His point was that casters overall got buffed, and Arcane Concordance can be obtained on a Sorcerer fairly easily. Simple fact: Noncasters are worse-off in PF-only than they were in 3.5, especially if they are required to use current errata.

And people complain that 4E's errata policy sucked...
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: snakeman830 on January 27, 2014, 04:56:26 PM
Back to the thread subject for a moment, an enterprising poster has brought another terrible feat to my attention, so I am quoting it here:
Quote
COMBAT PATROL (COMBAT)
Source Advanced Player's Guide
You range across the battlefield, dealing with threats wherever they arise.

Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Mobility, base attack bonus +5.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Yep, you have to move for all of these attacks you're threatening, you give up a full-round action to set this up, and if you run out of speed you're done.
Actually, it says you may move.  Also, I can still think of ways to abuse it.  Say, with archery?  I believe this would let you make ranged AoO's as it would override the normal "ranged weapons don't threaten".

Not that I wouldn't prefer just making a full attack, normally, but there are times when this would actually be pretty good.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: linklord231 on January 27, 2014, 05:42:44 PM
Yeah, I don't think anyone would choose to move as part of that, but I can't help but feel like you're SUPPOSED to. Just the guy who wrote the feat didn't understand how threatened area works .
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Sinfire Titan on January 27, 2014, 08:09:35 PM
Yeah, I don't think anyone would choose to move as part of that, but I can't help but feel like you're SUPPOSED to. Just the guy who wrote the feat didn't understand how threatened area works .

And now that we've found it, SKR/Jason will "errata" it to nerf it balance it because of that oversight.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on February 09, 2014, 03:05:21 PM
Not "bad" as in near useless, but very overpowered. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spellcasting-contract)
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 09, 2014, 03:21:09 PM
Not "bad" as in near useless, but very overpowered. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spellcasting-contract)

So... I can end up trading a spell slot to tell the fighter 'buff thyself'? What.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Prime32 on February 09, 2014, 04:01:25 PM
Not "bad" as in near useless, but very overpowered. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spellcasting-contract)
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me, and become an etc. etc.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 09, 2014, 04:10:14 PM
Not "bad" as in near useless, but very overpowered. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spellcasting-contract)
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me, and become an etc. etc.

Somehow I can't imagine Asmodeus employing those things.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: SolEiji on February 09, 2014, 06:36:29 PM
Looks like it might have limited use in transfering Personal only spells.  Not exactly the most useful spell, but looks better than some I've seen.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: snakeman830 on February 09, 2014, 11:03:32 PM
Transfers some personal spells and gives the "donor" some decent bonuses in return.  Profane bonuses aren't exactly handed out a lot.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ImperatorK on February 10, 2014, 01:36:13 AM
Not "bad" as in near useless, but very overpowered. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spellcasting-contract)
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me, and become an etc. etc.

Somehow I can't imagine Asmodeus employing those things.
Prime wasn't implying Asmodeus. He was implying /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 10, 2014, 08:13:20 AM
Not "bad" as in near useless, but very overpowered. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spellcasting-contract)
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me, and become an etc. etc.

Somehow I can't imagine Asmodeus employing those things.
Prime wasn't implying Asmodeus. He was implying /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

Check the spell list it's on. :p
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Leviathan on February 12, 2014, 02:23:08 AM
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/repositioning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/repositioning)

Repositioning is a +3 weapon ability that gives a +2 bonus to combat maneuver checks to reposition a creature, and lets you reposition as a free action with a critical. You already add your weapon's enhancement bonus to combat maneuver checks, and the bonus from the WSA is also an enhancement bonus, so they don't stack. Compared to a boring +4 weapon, a +1 repositioning weapon gives you -2 when repositioning and -3 to all other attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, and damage rolls. That occasional free action reposition must be really valuable.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Squirel_Dude on February 12, 2014, 03:07:46 AM
I give you all the Natural Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/natural-alchemist) (Thuvian Alchemist), it's the wizard PrC disguised as an Alchemist PrC.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Craiconn on February 13, 2014, 10:38:39 PM
The Haunting Mists spell looks to be like a pretty terrific multi-utility 2nd level spell that a good majority of arcane spell casters would love to have in their repertoire.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/haunting-mists

Sadly, it's range and effect puts the spellcaster right into its effects.  Since it is a figment spell, it should also have a Disbelief component to the Saving Throw.  But hell no ... it doesn't.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Sinfire Titan on February 14, 2014, 10:56:02 AM
Not "bad" as in near useless, but very overpowered. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spellcasting-contract)
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me, and become an etc. etc.

Somehow I can't imagine Asmodeus employing those things.
Prime wasn't implying Asmodeus. He was implying /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

And Raineh was saying that Asmodeus likely doesn't have Incubators as servants.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: veekie on February 15, 2014, 01:47:03 PM
Yeah, Incubators buy hopes and turns them into despair. That's yugoloths.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on February 21, 2014, 06:39:00 PM
New feat found:
Quote
FALSE CASTING
Source Inner Sea Magic pg. 10
When using a magic item, you can trick onlookers into thinking you used spellcasting instead.

Prerequisites: Magical Aptitude, Bluff 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 1 rank.

Benefit: When you use a magic item or a spelllike ability to create a magical effect, you may add additional magic-seeming words and hand gestures to trick onlookers into believing you cast the spell yourself. If using an item that is recognizable as a magical implement (such as a wand or ring), you can trick viewers into thinking you are just using the item as a focus component. Onlookers who have no ranks in Spellcraft have no knowledge of what is genuine spellcasting, and automatically believe you are casting a spell.

If an onlooker attempts a Spellcraft check to identify your “casting,” his check is opposed by your Bluff check. If he succeeds, he realizes the deception. If he fails, he believes you cast the spell. Regardless of the result of that opposed check, he uses the result of that Spellcraft check to identify the “spell” you cast, except the DC is 20 + the spell’s level instead of 15 + the spell’s level.
Well the +5 to spellcraft DCs is something, but most sane GMs would already let you use Bluff or Disguise to convince others you are the source of spellcasting when using an item anyway. This is one of those feats that indirectly nerfs pre-existing mechanics because it suggests to the GM that without this feat he shouldn't let you do that.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: TuggyNE on February 21, 2014, 07:42:03 PM
New feat found:
Quote
FALSE CASTING
Source Inner Sea Magic pg. 10
When using a magic item, you can trick onlookers into thinking you used spellcasting instead.

Prerequisites: Magical Aptitude, Bluff 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 1 rank.

Benefit: When you use a magic item or a spelllike ability to create a magical effect, you may add additional magic-seeming words and hand gestures to trick onlookers into believing you cast the spell yourself. If using an item that is recognizable as a magical implement (such as a wand or ring), you can trick viewers into thinking you are just using the item as a focus component. Onlookers who have no ranks in Spellcraft have no knowledge of what is genuine spellcasting, and automatically believe you are casting a spell.

If an onlooker attempts a Spellcraft check to identify your “casting,” his check is opposed by your Bluff check. If he succeeds, he realizes the deception. If he fails, he believes you cast the spell. Regardless of the result of that opposed check, he uses the result of that Spellcraft check to identify the “spell” you cast, except the DC is 20 + the spell’s level instead of 15 + the spell’s level.
Well the +5 to spellcraft DCs is something, but most sane GMs would already let you use Bluff or Disguise to convince others you are the source of spellcasting when using an item anyway. This is one of those feats that indirectly nerfs pre-existing mechanics because it suggests to the GM that without this feat he shouldn't let you do that.

Stuff like that shouldn't be a feat, but an expanded skill use or something. Backward compatibility, people!
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on February 24, 2014, 08:59:38 PM
Wait, I got another great candidate: EDIT: This feat was already posted on page one, whoops.
Quote
HELPLESS PRISONER
Source Gnomes of Golarion pg. 31
You can talk your way out of most restraints.

Prerequisites: Bluff 5 ranks, Escape Artist 1 rank, gnome.

Benefit: When you are restrained or imprisoned, you can make a Bluff check against any one creature within 30 feet in which you emphasize both your own harmlessness and the pain or inconvenience of your current condition. If the creature knows you are dangerous, it adds a +4 bonus to its Sense Motive check. If you win the check, the target does something intended to make you a little more comfortable—or at least shut you up—that gives you a +5 bonus on your next Escape Artist check.

Special: At the GM’s discretion, an especially evil or cruel creature may gain a +2 bonus to its Sense Motive check to resist this ability. If it succeeds, it does something to make your bindings even more secure and less comfortable, giving you a –5 penalty on all Escape Artist checks made in those particular bonds.
Another feat that enables you to do what you should already be capable of without the feat, plus this one has a lot of stupid restrictions and drawbacks. You have to be a Gnome, you must only make it within 30 feet, and the dude gets a +4 bonus to its Sense Motive ("if it knows you are dangerous" - if you are a player character and locked up, the answer is generally "yes"), plus for good measure it encourages GMs to give even more of a bonus to its Sense Motive and screw over your Escape Artist check if you fail your bluff - in the event that you happen to be locked up by an evil or cruel villain, which seems to be a popular villain archetype if you ask me.

I'd rather try this without using the feat, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: linklord231 on February 24, 2014, 10:43:52 PM
Not only that, but imagine if an NPC had this feat and used it against a player?
"he's so pitiful, your character can't help but go loosen his handcuffs a little
"but I'm a pitiless mercenary! That's totally out of character for me!
"too bad, he has a feat"
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: TiaC on March 02, 2014, 06:52:58 AM
I'm not quite sure if this is the right thread, but from the PFSRD's Movement page:
Quote
Note: The details for Burrow were not included in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook so the above information was copied from d20srd.org.

Really? They left out one of the movement modes?!
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: deadkitten on March 02, 2014, 02:16:45 PM
The Haunting Mists spell looks to be like a pretty terrific multi-utility 2nd level spell that a good majority of arcane spell casters would love to have in their repertoire.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/haunting-mists

Sadly, it's range and effect puts the spellcaster right into its effects.  Since it is a figment spell, it should also have a Disbelief component to the Saving Throw.  But hell no ... it doesn't.

I guess Arcane Archer is the only way to make this usefull.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 02, 2014, 02:32:36 PM
The Haunting Mists spell looks to be like a pretty terrific multi-utility 2nd level spell that a good majority of arcane spell casters would love to have in their repertoire.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/haunting-mists

Sadly, it's range and effect puts the spellcaster right into its effects.  Since it is a figment spell, it should also have a Disbelief component to the Saving Throw.  But hell no ... it doesn't.

I guess Arcane Archer is the only way to make this usefull.
Cast it, take a 5' step back. The worst thing is you might take 1d2 wisdom damage. It would sure be more useful with a longer range, but it is still useable (barely...).
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Sinfire Titan on March 03, 2014, 01:27:40 PM
But an awful lot of games (the majority I'd say) never even reach 17th level.

Just gonna say: Scrolls and Staves exist. It's expensive either way, but it is very possible to get a 9th level spell in the mid-levels (albeit in limited quantities). Given how Paizo made crafting easier, obtaining a scroll of Shapechange allows to craft a Staff of Shapechange (provided he can pump up his CL).
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on March 06, 2014, 04:38:04 AM
Here's a bonafide trap option feat:
Quote
QUARTERSTAFF MASTER (COMBAT)
Source Ultimate Magic
You can wield a quarterstaff as either a two-handed or one-handed weapon.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (quarterstaff), base attack bonus +5.

Benefit: By employing a number of different stances and techniques, you can wield a quarterstaff as a one-handed weapon. At the start of your turn, you decide whether or not you are going to wield the quarterstaff as a one-handed or two-handed weapon. When you wield it as a one-handed weapon, your other hand is free, and you cannot use the staff as a double weapon. You can take the feat Weapon Specialization in the quarterstaff even if you have no levels in fighter.

This is amazingly stupid. I think the following rules text about double weapons from the PRD (http://paizo.com/prd/equipment.html) needs to be quoted: "The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round." And these are already free actions, not "choose at start of turn and it's set in stone."

So the only thing this feat really does is enable you to take the Weapon Specialization feat so you do +2 damage with your quarterstaff, in case you felt like investing 3 feats as a non-Fighter to do +1 attack and +2 damage with quarterstaves.

For a novice though, they might think this makes for a good quarterstaff build.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ImperatorK on March 06, 2014, 05:37:32 AM
Um, quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon. This feat allows to use it in one hand.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 06, 2014, 08:31:00 AM
Um, quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon. This feat allows to use it in one hand.

The rules text already mentions wielding a double weapon with one hand.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 06, 2014, 08:44:56 AM
Um, quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon. This feat allows to use it in one hand.

The rules text already mentions wielding a double weapon with one hand.
The thing that's left out is that you can only do that with a weapon that's undersized for you (i.e. an ogre wielding a double-bladed sword made for a medium creature in one hand). This was definitely in the 3.X rules. I don't know if they transferred it to PF or not.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 06, 2014, 08:55:51 AM
Um, quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon. This feat allows to use it in one hand.

The rules text already mentions wielding a double weapon with one hand.
The thing that's left out is that you can only do that with a weapon that's undersized for you (i.e. an ogre wielding a double-bladed sword made for a medium creature in one hand). This was definitely in the 3.X rules. I don't know if they transferred it to PF or not.

True.

It's still rather pointless as it's two feats to wield a weapon you would have no sane reason to want to wield in one hand... in one hand.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ImperatorK on March 06, 2014, 09:31:09 AM
It's still rather pointless as it's two feats to wield a weapon you would have no sane reason to want to wield in one hand... in one hand.
Flavor.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 06, 2014, 09:39:11 AM
It's still rather pointless as it's two feats to wield a weapon you would have no sane reason to want to wield in one hand... in one hand.
Flavor.

That's rather outside the scope of this thread. Weapon specialisation adds flavour, but that doesn't make it a good feat.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ImperatorK on March 06, 2014, 09:47:33 AM
Weapon Specialization adds numbers, not flavor.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 06, 2014, 09:51:25 AM
Weapon Specialization adds numbers, not flavor.

The flavour is in the name. >.>

Along with Weapon Supremacy.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ketaro on March 06, 2014, 09:51:36 AM
Weapon Specialization adds numbers, not flavor.

"You are skilled at dealing damage with one weapon..." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-specialization-combat---final)

Technical flavor tastes technically like math  :p

Just as strong an argument as trying to take weapon spec. for a mechanical purpose though  :lmao
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Sinfire Titan on March 06, 2014, 11:24:59 AM
Weapon Specialization adds numbers, not flavor.

And Quarterstaff Master doesn't add flavor either. It doesn't do anything you couldn't already do in PF aside from qualifying you for WS, and only WS.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ImperatorK on March 06, 2014, 12:14:03 PM
It lets you use a two-handed weapon in on hand.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 06, 2014, 12:16:51 PM
It lets you use a two-handed weapon in on hand.

And? It deals 1d6 damage. Just get a damn longsword. It's not like 'one-handed quarterstaff' is an improvement in any way. Less damage than some one-handed weapons, less damage than using it in two hands, less potential uses than using it as a double weapon.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: phaedrusxy on March 06, 2014, 12:29:45 PM
It lets you use a two-handed weapon in on hand.

And? It deals 1d6 damage. Just get a damn longsword. It's not like 'one-handed quarterstaff' is an improvement in any way. Less damage than some one-handed weapons, less damage than using it in two hands, less potential uses than using it as a double weapon.
I don't think anyone is saying that this is a good feat... Just taking issue with the statement that it does nothing at all (aside from take WS). Assuming PF works like D&D in this respect, you can't normally wield an appropriately sized 2-handed weapon in one hand. This feat lets you do that with a QS, as useless as that is.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 06, 2014, 12:32:12 PM
It lets you use a two-handed weapon in on hand.

And? It deals 1d6 damage. Just get a damn longsword. It's not like 'one-handed quarterstaff' is an improvement in any way. Less damage than some one-handed weapons, less damage than using it in two hands, less potential uses than using it as a double weapon.
I don't think anyone is saying that this is a good feat... Just taking issue with the statement that it does nothing at all (aside from take WS). Assuming PF works like D&D in this respect, you can't normally wield an appropriately sized 2-handed weapon in one hand. This feat lets you do that with a QS, as useless as that is.

Well...

It's still rather pointless as it's two feats to wield a weapon you would have no sane reason to want to wield in one hand... in one hand.
Flavor.

That's rather outside the scope of this thread. Weapon specialisation adds flavour, but that doesn't make it a good feat.

This is a thread for bad feats. The only reason to argue about something is whether you disagree on if it's a bad feat.

Or just to be an asshole, I guess.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: PixelHead777 on March 06, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
I think the point was asking how bad it was. Like, not worth it bad, or literally does nothing but waste a feat.

Is different levels of bad! And it's nice to know what those levels are.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 06, 2014, 12:39:36 PM
I think the point was asking how bad it was. Like, not worth it bad, or literally does nothing but waste a feat.

Is different levels of bad! And it's nice to know what those levels are.

Literally does nothing but waste a feat. The weapon specialisation would get you to longsword damage. That is two more feats to make this JUST as bad as longsword+weapon focus. Yes, you can technically do something you couldn't before, but mechanically you're worse off.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on March 06, 2014, 08:10:25 PM
It lets you use a two-handed weapon in on hand.

Or you could just use a club.

Another no-cost, completely wooden stick that deals 1d6 bludgeon damage that can be 1-handed or 2-handed.  Except the club can also be thrown with a 10 ft range increment.  So it's actually better than the quarterstaff, even with this feat.  And doesn't make you waste a feat.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ImperatorK on March 07, 2014, 08:36:50 AM
Picking a feat for flavor is a completely sane reason. That's all I said. Nothing more, nothing less.

This is a thread for bad feats.
Yes it is. So? I can't make comments that aren't 100% on topic? That never was a problem on this boards. :???

Quote
The only reason to argue about something is whether you disagree on if it's a bad feat.
Except I wasn't arguing anything concerning the feat's goodness or badness, so you were just making a strawman. And don't talk to me about "scope of the thread". I just commented on your post. You're the one who chose to argue.

Quote
Or just to be an asshole, I guess.
It could be argued who's the asshole here. For one thing, I don't call other people assholes.

Or you could just use a club.
Yes you could. Your point?

To add something to the thread for a change. Don't know if bad rules are "in the scope of the thread", but something that irks me is that Paizo for some reason thinks the smallest things are umbalancing or something like that. I mean, it is obviously unoptimal to one-hand a two handed weapon, because you lose on a feat (or ability), you gain minimal damage and lose on accuracy. Now, I don't know how it was in 3.5, but by RAW a two-handed weapon doesn't technically have to be two-handed to gain higher Power Attack damage (maybe even to gain bonus damage for two-handing one-handed weapons, it's not clear), so this flavor option has at least that going for it. Of course Paizo doesn't like mundanes having even the smallest advantages, so they specifically nipped that rule in the bud. They copy-pasted this rule leaving this interpretation open, but then made it clear in a FAQ somewhere that it doesn't work.
Man, sometimes I hate Paizo.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Sinfire Titan on March 08, 2014, 08:32:51 AM
Keep the tone civil guys.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Craiconn on March 08, 2014, 01:17:56 PM
This has been an excellent showcase thread so far .... and I'm certainly in cahoots with you guys in regards to my antipathy for a good portion of PF game mechanics.

That said, I'm wondering if it would be too heretical for one of us to start a diametrically opposed thread that showcases some of PF's "good feats/spells/etc."  Keep in mind, it would be for spot cases ... not wholesale swaths of Pathfinder awesomeness (which, to be honest, doesn't seem to exist).  Since I only play spellcasters, I have pretty strong system mastery of 3.5/D20 spellcasting rules, combinatorials and buildcraft.  That said, I really do enjoy backporting a good number of Pathfinder spells back to 3.5.  There are certainly cases of certain PF spells and metamagic feats being either outright ill-thought-out, broken or boringly forgetful ... but there are also many flavorful winners that enhance 3.5 spellcasting play without exacerbating quadratic powermongering and endless loopisms. 
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Prime32 on March 08, 2014, 03:28:55 PM
I'm wondering if it would be too heretical for one of us to start a diametrically opposed thread that showcases some of PF's "good feats/spells/etc."
There was one, sort of. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2342)
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: deadkitten on March 11, 2014, 10:52:43 PM
Magus is probably the only class that would benefit from Quarterstaff Master.  And look, it even has an archetype that the feat was probably created for that you gain for free at first level. Now they can use spell combat with a magical staff, it has a purpose, however limited to a single class and archetype.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/staff-magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/staff-magus)
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Mixster on March 12, 2014, 08:32:17 PM
The monk would also benefit since the quarterstaff is a monk weapon and the club is not
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: SolEiji on April 30, 2014, 03:30:50 AM
I wanted to start out by saying I'm usually the one defending pathfinder.  It's a flawed game, but have found more good then bad, and generally use it as an expansion to 3.5e if anything.  So usually when I see something dumb from them I shake my head and push that aside for better stuff.

So.... I was looking up some things making a staff and I realized PF changed stave rules.  I wonder what change they made, looks like the price went up slightly but I'm sure it's not too ba...

...

NOPE!

TEN.  TEN charges!?  Even with the ability to recharge them, TEN?  With restrictions on what can recharge them?  And only 1 charge per day regardless how many spell slots you have?!

NOPE.  NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE.   :banghead  God damnit Paizo, you make this difficult for me!
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nytemare3701 on April 30, 2014, 08:33:48 PM
I would object to the cherrypicking of pathfinder rules under the grounds that a game's rules are intended to be used together, with balance in mind...but then I remembered this is Paizo. Carry on.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on July 30, 2014, 08:39:55 PM
I think elephant stomp has a serious challenger for worst feat ever!

Troth of the Forgotten Pharoah (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/troth-of-the-forgotten-pharaoh)

Spend a feat and some hp loss for the ability to irrevocably kill yourself just to do inconsequentially tiny damage and a 1 round debility to those around you out of spite.  Awesome!

(click to show/hide)

I mean, I get that it's for NPCs and not PCs, but spending a feat on that shit is still freaking stupid.  And hell, when you compare it to say... 3E's Destruction Retribution (http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-undead--71/destruction-retribution--591/) it looks especially like ass.  And *that* feat was to turn your hordes of minions into ticking time bombs, not yourself!
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on July 30, 2014, 11:18:50 PM
Who writes this shit, and how did they manage to hire Rob Liefeld's agent?!
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: snakeman830 on July 31, 2014, 10:57:12 AM
I think elephant stomp has a serious challenger for worst feat ever!

Troth of the Forgotten Pharoah (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/troth-of-the-forgotten-pharaoh)

Spend a feat and some hp loss for the ability to irrevocably kill yourself just to do inconsequentially tiny damage and a 1 round debility to those around you out of spite.  Awesome!

(click to show/hide)

I mean, I get that it's for NPCs and not PCs, but spending a feat on that shit is still freaking stupid.  And hell, when you compare it to say... 3E's Destruction Retribution (http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-undead--71/destruction-retribution--591/) it looks especially like ass.  And *that* feat was to turn your hordes of minions into ticking time bombs, not yourself!
I think it *could* be useful.

Thrallherd with minions that have this feat and use it for immediate action application of Dying Curses (BoVD).  Evil Queen Bee type character.

Or a necromancer-type with Destruction Retribution who uses Awaken Undead to let his minions gain this feat.  True kamikaze minions.

Other than that, I don't think the immediate action death is really that handy.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Frogman55 on July 31, 2014, 12:21:33 PM
I think elephant stomp has a serious challenger for worst feat ever!

Troth of the Forgotten Pharoah (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/troth-of-the-forgotten-pharaoh)

Spend a feat and some hp loss for the ability to irrevocably kill yourself just to do inconsequentially tiny damage and a 1 round debility to those around you out of spite.  Awesome!

(click to show/hide)

I mean, I get that it's for NPCs and not PCs, but spending a feat on that shit is still freaking stupid.  And hell, when you compare it to say... 3E's Destruction Retribution (http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-undead--71/destruction-retribution--591/) it looks especially like ass.  And *that* feat was to turn your hordes of minions into ticking time bombs, not yourself!
I think it *could* be useful.

Thrallherd with minions that have this feat and use it for immediate action application of Dying Curses (BoVD).  Evil Queen Bee type character.

Or a necromancer-type with Destruction Retribution who uses Awaken Undead to let his minions gain this feat.  True kamikaze minions.

Other than that, I don't think the immediate action death is really that handy.
I think this is the real point of the spell: "Spells such as raise dead or speak with dead cannot be used on your remains." Cyanide capsules hidden in your teeth just aren't that useful with all the various necromancy and divination spells available. The good bit here (for a given value of good) is keeping the BBEG's info out of the hands of PCs while still sending out mook attacks. The potential to do a bit of damage on your enemy is just gravy.

And while its a stupid feat, its still better than skill focus.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on August 12, 2014, 04:55:24 AM
New feat found:
Quote
CLEAVE THROUGH (COMBAT)
Source Advanced Race Guide
You are ferocious at hewing smaller opponents.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +11, dwarf.

Benefit: When using Cleave or Great Cleave, if your initial attack hits, you may take a single 5-foot step as a free action before making your additional attacks. If doing so places a creature within your threatened area, that creature becomes a legal target for your additional Cleave attack(s) as long as it meets all the other prerequisites.

Normal: You may only make additional attacks with Cleave against creatures you threaten when you make your initial attack.
So, here's a feat so bad it doesn't make your character worse for taking it. It makes the game worse for existing.

Not only are the 11 BAB and dwarf prerequisites completely obnoxious, but it nerfs Cleave just by existing and has you pay an extra feat just to get a half-assed version of the unnerfed cleave. You can now only take the 5-foot step after the initial attack and it also has another restriction in case you somehow happen to get more than one five foot step.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 12, 2014, 08:27:17 AM
Quote
You are ferocious at hewing smaller opponents.

Also the fluff text is inexplicable because it's about dwarves. 2/3 of their major opponents (3/4 including dragons) are bigger than them.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Frogman55 on August 12, 2014, 10:05:20 AM
New feat found:
Quote
CLEAVE THROUGH (COMBAT)
Source Advanced Race Guide
You are ferocious at hewing smaller opponents.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +11, dwarf.

Benefit: When using Cleave or Great Cleave, if your initial attack hits, you may take a single 5-foot step as a free action before making your additional attacks. If doing so places a creature within your threatened area, that creature becomes a legal target for your additional Cleave attack(s) as long as it meets all the other prerequisites.

Normal: You may only make additional attacks with Cleave against creatures you threaten when you make your initial attack.
So, here's a feat so bad it doesn't make your character worse for taking it. It makes the game worse for existing.

Not only are the 11 BAB and dwarf prerequisites completely obnoxious, but it nerfs Cleave just by existing and has you pay an extra feat just to get a half-assed version of the unnerfed cleave. You can now only take the 5-foot step after the initial attack and it also has another restriction in case you somehow happen to get more than one five foot step.
I dunno - I've never thought about this, as I almost never play dwarfs (little buggers bug me). But this looks to me like a way to get an additional 5' step, either a second one in the round, or a 5' step available even with a move action or charge.

If that's the case, then it isn't all that bad. Even with the strict reading, you can still take a 5' step before you use cleave, so long as you were threatening your target both before and after.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: kitep on August 12, 2014, 04:27:14 PM
It might be useful if you cleave while doing an attack of opportunity ???
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Frogman55 on August 12, 2014, 05:02:55 PM
It might be useful if you cleave while doing an attack of opportunity ???
Unfortunately, Cleave requires a standard action. It's not the same as 3.5 cleave - instead of a free attack when you drop something, it's just a free attack against two enemies that you threaten.

So the only utility I see is if you can successfully argue that this could let you take two 5' steps, or a 5' step after a move.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: linklord231 on August 12, 2014, 06:21:36 PM
PF Cleave would almost be good, if you could combine it with Vital Strike and have both of them or on a charge.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on July 22, 2015, 01:42:51 PM
Woohoo, this one has not been posted yet:
Quote
STRIKE BACK
Source Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook pg. 135
You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.
Another one of those brilliant feats that effectively nerfs characters by implying they shouldn't be allowed to do that without investing in the feat.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: snakeman830 on July 22, 2015, 01:59:27 PM
Woohoo, this one has not been posted yet:
Quote
STRIKE BACK
Source Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook pg. 135
You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.
Another one of those brilliant feats that effectively nerfs characters by implying they shouldn't be allowed to do that without investing in the feat.
Bolded what may be the important part.  I don't think you can strike a foe 20 feet away with a greatsword using a readied action.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on July 22, 2015, 03:49:31 PM
Now let me bold what I consider the important part: You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you. I'm pretty sure you didn't need a feat to do this.

I guess the part where you can target the weapon to damage the wielder and not the weapon itself is a perk, assuming they are attacking you with a reach weapon.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Unbeliever on July 22, 2015, 05:40:43 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure that Snakeman830 is right.  If you're 20 ft. from a Dragon who is attacking you with its tail, I never thought you got to attack just at its tail.  You'd have to move in, eating the attack of opportunity, etc., to be able to harm it. 

The feat is still blisteringly crappy, but it does give you something you couldn't do otherwise.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on July 22, 2015, 06:06:19 PM
Attacking any part of a creature deals hp damage to it.  That is part of the massive abstraction of the hp system, and hardly the most strange aspect of it.  I think you're confusing attacking limbs with SNEAK ATTACKing limbs.  It's sneak attack that says you must strike vital areas and extremities may not count.  General melee smacking has no such restriction.

So yes, the feat is awful, one of the worst in PF.  Not only does it lock behind a feat something most considered a thing you could freaking do already... it locked it behind a feat with a goddamned BAB +11 requirement, because fuck martials.  Why should they get to ready to hit a giant's arm before the wizard can cast True Seeing, Contingency, or Flesh to Stone?  The former is totally more powerful than the latter.

EDIT: We're not talking about on your own turn, full attacking from some arbitrary distance and ignoring the rules of reach completely.  We're talking about specifically readying an action, which might never pay off, to strike the dragon's tail the exact moment it has placed it within your threatened reach.  Should be obvious, but I'll state it just to be sure everyone is following along.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Kethrian on July 22, 2015, 07:35:26 PM
I'm pretty sure I read a Sage Advice article or rules clarification somewhere (possibly back in 3.0 era) that expressly pointed out that readying an action like this is permitted.  I can't for the life of me remember where or when I read it, though, so I cannot provide you with a source.  So yeah, PF screws up the rules yet again ...
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Unbeliever on July 23, 2015, 12:18:23 AM
Attacking any part of a creature deals hp damage to it.  That is part of the massive abstraction of the hp system, and hardly the most strange aspect of it.  I think you're confusing attacking limbs with SNEAK ATTACKing limbs.  It's sneak attack that says you must strike vital areas and extremities may not count.  General melee smacking has no such restriction.
I'm not confusing any such thing at all.  I'm saying that I'm not going to be shocked if a DM doesn't say you need to have reach on an enemy to actually hit it.  D&D doesn't let you declare that you're attacking a "part" of the creature.  That's not a combat option in the base rules.  You attack "the target."  And, on a "straight" read of the rules, the "target" is that blob that occupies a bunch of squares all the way over there, to wit, out of your reach.  It's not the target's arm/tentacle/spiked chain that's coming at your face. 

I happen to think this "straight" read of the rules is overly hidebound and silly.  Hence the scare quotes.  I'd, obviously, let someone do such a thing without a feat. 

I imagine the Sage Advice article that Kethrian refers to says exactly this as well.  But, it's not immediately obvious from the rules.  That is, of course, why we have DMs and brains. 
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ErikF on July 23, 2015, 11:21:04 PM
This is my first time posting outside of the intro forum, so hopefully this works!  :)

I'm pretty sure I read a Sage Advice article or rules clarification somewhere (possibly back in 3.0 era) that expressly pointed out that readying an action like this is permitted.  I can't for the life of me remember where or when I read it, though, so I cannot provide you with a source.  So yeah, PF screws up the rules yet again ...

I think that the D&D 3.5 FAQ 6/30/08 (pp.66-67) has this information (it refers to attacks of opportunity, but I feel that a readied attack trigger would use essentially the same rules):

Quote
If an enemy makes an attack against me that would provoke an attack of opportunity (such as a disarm or grapple attempt), do I get the attack of opportunity if I can’t reach him? Would the Close-Quarters Fighting feat help at all?

Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away, you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre (since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy 10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with his hand, such as when trying to grapple you.
Even the Close-Quarters Fighting feat doesn’t help, since that feat applies only when the attack of opportunity against a grappling foe normally would be denied by “a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack” and lists Improved Grapple and improved grab as examples.
If, as DM, this bothers your sensibilities and you and your players are willing to bend the letter of the rules a bit, consider the following house rule that the Sage has used in his games in the past: If a foe would provoke an attack of opportunity with any action that brings him (or something he holds) into contact with you or your space, you can make an attack of opportunity against the foe (or the object he holds, if that’s what’s contacting you). This means that an ogre trying to initiate a grapple would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make against the ogre (since his hand and arm are clearly coming within your reach to grab you), while the same ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt).

How does this affect the feat in question? From my reading of the ruling, technically there probably is a place for it. Does that make the feat "good"? Not a chance. It seems like a dumb feat tax for something that should have always been allowed IMO.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on July 24, 2015, 06:49:10 PM
Attacking any part of a creature deals hp damage to it.  That is part of the massive abstraction of the hp system, and hardly the most strange aspect of it.  I think you're confusing attacking limbs with SNEAK ATTACKing limbs.  It's sneak attack that says you must strike vital areas and extremities may not count.  General melee smacking has no such restriction.
I'm not confusing any such thing at all.  I'm saying that I'm not going to be shocked if a DM doesn't say you need to have reach on an enemy to actually hit it.  D&D doesn't let you declare that you're attacking a "part" of the creature.  That's not a combat option in the base rules.  You attack "the target."  And, on a "straight" read of the rules, the "target" is that blob that occupies a bunch of squares all the way over there, to wit, out of your reach.  It's not the target's arm/tentacle/spiked chain that's coming at your face. 

I happen to think this "straight" read of the rules is overly hidebound and silly.  Hence the scare quotes.  I'd, obviously, let someone do such a thing without a feat. 

I imagine the Sage Advice article that Kethrian refers to says exactly this as well.  But, it's not immediately obvious from the rules.  That is, of course, why we have DMs and brains.

That's what I mean.  This isn't called shots.  Attacking any part of the creature's body deals hp damage, that's the abstraction.  Treating the attack of limbs and extremities as a special case  is called shots.
Allowing readied actions to hit a foe as part of his body enters your reach to harm you relies upon logic and common sense, which I realize are unpopular resources to many on D&D boards.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 24, 2015, 07:59:05 PM
Attacking any part of a creature deals hp damage to it.  That is part of the massive abstraction of the hp system, and hardly the most strange aspect of it.  I think you're confusing attacking limbs with SNEAK ATTACKing limbs.  It's sneak attack that says you must strike vital areas and extremities may not count.  General melee smacking has no such restriction.
I'm not confusing any such thing at all.  I'm saying that I'm not going to be shocked if a DM doesn't say you need to have reach on an enemy to actually hit it.  D&D doesn't let you declare that you're attacking a "part" of the creature.  That's not a combat option in the base rules.  You attack "the target."  And, on a "straight" read of the rules, the "target" is that blob that occupies a bunch of squares all the way over there, to wit, out of your reach.  It's not the target's arm/tentacle/spiked chain that's coming at your face. 

I happen to think this "straight" read of the rules is overly hidebound and silly.  Hence the scare quotes.  I'd, obviously, let someone do such a thing without a feat. 

I imagine the Sage Advice article that Kethrian refers to says exactly this as well.  But, it's not immediately obvious from the rules.  That is, of course, why we have DMs and brains.

That's what I mean.  This isn't called shots.  Attacking any part of the creature's body deals hp damage, that's the abstraction.  Treating the attack of limbs and extremities as a special case  is called shots.
Allowing readied actions to hit a foe as part of his body enters your reach to harm you relies upon logic and common sense, which I realize are unpopular resources to many on D&D boards.
(click to show/hide)

Lets you whack giants using giant spears, though.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: snakeman830 on July 25, 2015, 08:15:46 PM
Yeah, the feat does let you do something (for example, smack that Balor using it's whip against you), but what it lets you do is both extremely situational and very weak.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Fadier on July 25, 2015, 09:17:39 PM
Take a look at the Fearmonger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/fearmonger-antipaladin-archetype) Anti-Paladin archetype. It replaces Touch of Corruption ability and then forces you to to take specific Cruelties, that you cannot use because you do not have your Touch of Corruption ability.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on July 25, 2015, 10:46:20 PM
Its worse than that.
Quote
Each cruelty adds an effect to the antipaladin’s touch of corruption ability.
Removing Touch of Corruption busts all Cruelties.   They are all out of fucks to give.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on July 27, 2015, 12:15:48 PM
obviously in need of a fix.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on July 22, 2018, 07:28:53 PM
New feat courtesy of Planar Adventures!
Quote
PEACE OF MIND (CONDUIT)
Source Planar Adventures pg. 31
The blissful peace of Nirvana is never more than a thought away from your mind.

Prerequisites: Knowledge (planes) 3 ranks.

Benefit: As an immediate action when you fail a saving throw against an emotion, fear, or pain effect, you can ignore the effect and instead become dazed for an amount of time equal to twice the duration of the original effect. Any nonlethal damage you would have taken from the original effect is reduced to its minimum value (as though a 1 had been rolled on all dice). You cannot activate this ability if you are currently dazed.

You can use this feat’s benefit once per day, plus an additional time per day for every 5 ranks you have in Knowledge (planes).

I think the only good use of this is against spells with instantaneous durations or if you somehow develop daze immunity. There might be a few cases where the regular condition is worse than daze (confusion?), but even then the doubled duration makes it a dubious proposition. For the most part this feat's effect is much worse than what that spell or effect was going to do to you.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ketaro on July 22, 2018, 08:32:07 PM
I'd rather be panicked and escaping danger than dazed and being murdered uncontested  :lol
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 22, 2018, 10:15:20 PM
Wow, that's impressively stupid.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: linklord231 on July 23, 2018, 03:22:13 AM
Oh, and there's a limited number of uses per day.  Not that you'd survive the first use anyway  :lmao
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 23, 2018, 02:16:54 PM
Oh, and there's a limited number of uses per day.
Well you wouldn't want it to be overpowered right?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on July 25, 2018, 02:15:48 PM
At least it actually does something.  That thing is incredibly stupid, but it does do it!
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on July 25, 2018, 04:31:05 PM
There's an open argument to be had whether it would've been better if it didn't do anything at all though. Using it seems much worse than not using it.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on July 25, 2018, 05:15:13 PM
There is at least a couple of cases where it might be useful: Phantasmal Killer and Weird are Fear effects, and being dazed is better than dying instantly.

Still an awful feat, of course.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on July 25, 2018, 09:52:33 PM
Those were the exact spells I was referring to when I spoke of spells with instantaneous duration, but it's an open question as technically speaking effects with a duration of instantaneous are interpreted to be permanent effects.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanshork on July 25, 2018, 11:17:51 PM
Those were the exact spells I was referring to when I spoke of spells with instantaneous duration, but it's an open question as technically speaking effects with a duration of instantaneous are interpreted to be permanent effects.

Eh, even then a 6th level paladin could remove it and since the feat isn't a curse, disease, or poison the removal is permanent.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on July 27, 2018, 05:54:27 AM
Maybe so, but failing saves vs Phantasmal Killer is pretty hard, unless they really cheesed DCs and added a Persistent Spell metamagic on top, not to mention Pathfinder GMs tend to never use that kind of ability on players. This isn't the old D&D where you throw around save-or-die, permanent level drain, and others kinds of serious hazards at players. Today's Pathfinder GMs will fudge dice if they're worried their monster has been critting too often.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanshork on July 27, 2018, 10:59:12 AM
I didn't say that it made the feat good, I just said that being permanently dazed isn't something to worry about.   :p

Also we have different kinds of Pathfinder GMs.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 27, 2018, 10:24:01 PM
Also we have different kinds of Pathfinder GMs.
It's probably a generational gap.

Remember Gygax's love of murderous dungeons that killed players for arbitrary reasons?
By 3rd, the Red Hand of Doom simply penalized players for not keeping up with everything.
And by 5th, players hands are held. They can completely skip fights or even trivialize campaign bosses (Tiamat takes like five rounds to use her stat block, most of ToEE's guys auto die vs disarm), heck one of the best weapons in 5th is obtained by not killing someone. >.>
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2018, 11:30:57 PM
heck one of the best weapons in 5th is obtained by not killing someone. >.>

I see nothing wrong with that one, particularly thrown against the unexpected. Player murder isn't always the cruellest option. :p
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on September 28, 2018, 06:01:52 AM
Found another feat in Villain Codex
Quote
POSITION OF STRENGTH
Source Villain Codex pg. 188
You know how to press your advantage when negotiating with noncombatants.

Prerequisites: Intimidate 5 ranks.

Benefit: As long as you are wielding one or more weapons with which you are proficient, you gain a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks against unarmed creatures, which doesn’t stack with Intimidating Prowess. Additionally, if you successfully use Intimidate to demoralize an unarmed creature, that creature becomes shaken for as long as you continue to be armed and they continue not to be, to a maximum of 1 minute. Creatures with natural attacks, or whose unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, are considered to be armed for the purposes of this feat.

Another one of those "here's a feat to allow you to do what the GM would've let you do without the feat before it existed" additions that only serves as a nerf to make things worse.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on October 01, 2018, 08:15:05 PM
75% of the things you face aren't even affected by the feat, not including the stuff immune to mind affecting
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanshork on October 01, 2018, 10:24:47 PM
Found another feat in Villain Codex
Quote
POSITION OF STRENGTH
Source Villain Codex pg. 188
You know how to press your advantage when negotiating with noncombatants.

Prerequisites: Intimidate 5 ranks.

Benefit: As long as you are wielding one or more weapons with which you are proficient, you gain a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks against unarmed creatures, which doesn’t stack with Intimidating Prowess. Additionally, if you successfully use Intimidate to demoralize an unarmed creature, that creature becomes shaken for as long as you continue to be armed and they continue not to be, to a maximum of 1 minute. Creatures with natural attacks, or whose unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, are considered to be armed for the purposes of this feat.

Another one of those "here's a feat to allow you to do what the GM would've let you do without the feat before it existed" additions that only serves as a nerf to make things worse.

To be fair, I wouldn't grant ad-hoc bonuses for trying to intimidate someone just because they're unarmed unless against someone with only NPC classes.  Adventurer's shouldn't be easily intimidated automatically just because they don't happen to be armed.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on October 01, 2018, 10:35:07 PM
Agreed
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on November 02, 2018, 09:41:01 PM
Let's see on Peace of Mind...
It doesn't do anything to (Mind-Affecting) stuff, which would actually be usable (not good, but usable) since "stay there useless" is still better than "kill your friends".

Uh... Magical traps? You can generally afford to wait those out. Too bad Sepia Snake Sigil would be worse (you're inactive twice as long but still need to eat) and for some reason, conjuration (creation) (and Temporal Stasis with the same effect is transmutation.). I recall at least one Phantasmal Killer trap in an AP, but even that causes issues (what's twice instant?).

Edit: Found a real stinker: Vestment of the Champion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vestment-of-the-champion/). Personal only magic vestment at a reduced level for Paladin is a reasonable idea, but it's minutes/level instead of hours (not even 10 mins/level!). When you first get it it's a mere +1 to AC (+2 if you have magical knack) that doesn't stack with existing magic armor (which you should have by level 7). At hours per level it would at least make enemy anti-Paladins slightly more durable (If he has a shield and cast it twice that's +4 AC without giving the party loot), but at minutes it's useless.

Edit: Another one: Witchlight Lantern. It glows if it's within 30 feet of a magic aura... and doesn't exclude the holder's gear... or the party... or any active buffs. As written it's an Everburning Hooded Lantern at over 35 times the cost (worse if you cast it yourself). One use I can see for it is to hang it in a check point staffed by mundanes. Lets them see whenever someone enters that is either a caster or carrying magic items. Use this to enforce permits on magic and it will pay for itself reasonably quick.

Edit: Villain Codex has a group of scamsters with some very inefficent scams. Caravan Master's Wagon is a mundane wagon with hidden compartment dependent upon a 20,000 GP portable hole (because people who can afford that transport goods in wagons...).  The efficiency of a Sucker's Barrel (Barrel that costs 2 extra GP and holds 75% while weighing the full amount) is dubious, especially since the scam is obvious once the container is empty so only travelers can not immediately be lynched.

Fool's Gold just plain old won't work, at least not on coins. We can start with that it's an illusion spell and all real world coins I know of, modern or historical, had different types of coins be different shape and size. I'm sure that would still be standard in a fantasy world where changing colors of things is a basic mages trick. The spell does work on art objects, but half the word count was spent on coins.  It's also much more traceable (throw some "gold" coins in a sack and wondering why there's copper ones in it latter vs. buying a gold candlestick and see it turn to copper an hour latter)
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on November 10, 2019, 09:37:39 PM
Wow. It's been a full year since the last time this thread got bumped. I know there has been a lot more trash released in-between then and now. Anyway, time for a discovery from Ultimate Wilderness:
Quote
NATURE'S WEAPONS
Source Ultimate Wilderness pg. 116
You can make a weapon out of nearly anything that can be found in the wild.

Prerequisites: Catch Off-Guard; base attack bonus +2; Knowledge (nature) or Survival 2 ranks.

Benefit: You can turn nearly anything you might find in the wilderness into an improvised melee weapon. This improvised melee weapon is one-handed and deals 1d6 points of damage for Medium creatures and 1d4 for Small creatures. Depending on the weapon, it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage (at the GM’s discretion). Grabbing an object to use as a weapon is the same action as drawing a weapon. The weapon must be of a material that is naturally occurring in that terrain.

I'm pretty sure you can already use sticks and stones as terrible improvised weapons with the Catch Off-Guard feat alone. The only thing this does is let you draw naturally occurring objects or materials from terrain with Quick Draw or as part of a charge. My bet is an editor quickly tacked the Catch Off-Guard feat prerequisite on to this because he or she was worried about it being too good otherwise somehow.

Edit: Found a real stinker: Vestment of the Champion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vestment-of-the-champion/). Personal only magic vestment at a reduced level for Paladin is a reasonable idea, but it's minutes/level instead of hours (not even 10 mins/level!). When you first get it it's a mere +1 to AC (+2 if you have magical knack) that doesn't stack with existing magic armor (which you should have by level 7). At hours per level it would at least make enemy anti-Paladins slightly more durable (If he has a shield and cast it twice that's +4 AC without giving the party loot), but at minutes it's useless.
The Versatile Weapon (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Versatile%20Weapon) spell has the same issue. It's Greater Magic Weapon with minutes/lvl duration instead of hours/lvl. The only bright side to this is that it lets you bypass piercing/slashing/bludgeoning/silver/cold iron, that you can cast it on natural weapons and unarmed strikes, and that Bards and Rangers get Versatile Weapon as a 2nd-level spell while they don't get either of the Magic Weapon spells. But the duration is still pretty terrible.

Quote
Edit: Another one: Witchlight Lantern. It glows if it's within 30 feet of a magic aura... and doesn't exclude the holder's gear... or the party... or any active buffs. As written it's an Everburning Hooded Lantern at over 35 times the cost (worse if you cast it yourself). One use I can see for it is to hang it in a check point staffed by mundanes. Lets them see whenever someone enters that is either a caster or carrying magic items. Use this to enforce permits on magic and it will pay for itself reasonably quick.
It seems like even Misdirection and Magic Aura wouldn't work on that. That is one awkward item.

Quote
Edit: Villain Codex has a group of scamsters with some very inefficent scams. Caravan Master's Wagon is a mundane wagon with hidden compartment dependent upon a 20,000 GP portable hole (because people who can afford that transport goods in wagons...).  The efficiency of a Sucker's Barrel (Barrel that costs 2 extra GP and holds 75% while weighing the full amount) is dubious, especially since the scam is obvious once the container is empty so only travelers can not immediately be lynched.
Honestly if you want to scam the Pathfinder economy just play a Negotiator Bard and start scamming people with Fast Talk or glamors. Or even more simply just cast Glibness and let people believe whatever you're selling is whatever you say it is.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on November 10, 2019, 10:04:23 PM
Accidental doublepost, so I may as well add another fun feat:
Quote
ARCANE BLAST
Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 150
You can convert any spell into an attack.

Prerequisites: Arcane spellcaster, caster level 10th.

Benefit:  As a standard action, you can sacrifice a prepared spell or unused spell slot of 1st level or higher and transform it into a ray, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals 2d6 points of damage plus an additional 1d6 points of damage for every level of the spell or spell slot you sacrificed. 0-level spells may not be sacrificed in this manner.
If at any point in time this seems to be a better use of your spells and actions than whatever you had otherwise available, you are really, really bad at the game. For bonus points, you need to be at least caster level 10 to use this feat. Because clearly, it'd be a problem if you had it at low levels.

The sole perk I can see out of this is that it does untyped damage.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on November 15, 2019, 06:16:51 PM
Since it's untyped damage and a ranged touch attack, it works for an Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Scoundrel. Not a great feat, but being able to turn 1st level slots into 3d6 untyped that's SR: No (indeed, RAW this works in anti-magic zones) is worth the feat for that one very specific build, so hardly the worst feat in the system.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on November 17, 2019, 09:00:39 AM
Sadly, that 2d6 base makes the feat better than so many of the fool 'sacrifice a spell to do 1d6 damage per spell level' abilities that have circulated since 3.0.    And its still hot trash.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on November 18, 2019, 08:37:51 PM
Kami Eidolon subtype (Wilderness Origins) is sad. Their unique thing only comes online at level 12 (when magic and magic items can hide it pretty well already) and only lasts an hour. If it got it earlier and it lasted any decent duration of time it would have been interesting for a Summoner that wants to quickly bring out their giant friend in a combat situation, but as is the subtype is pure garbage.

edit:
The Prophets of Kalistrade vanity in PFSFG lets you reroll day job checks for the cost of a PP. The best that can result in, assuming you turned a 1 into a 20, is 75 GP. 1PP is worth 375GP. There's actually a boon that boosts this vanity (I won't name the scenario, but considering only one is set in the country the religion is based in...) and it still not worth the prestige point.

Speaking of Day Jobs: Improved Day Job feat gives a +3 to day job checks. It's explicitly meant to stack on top of Skill Focus so being strictly worse than that feat isn't that much of an issue. What is an issue is that at the absolute best case (which isn't actually possible) it lets you make a DC40 day job check, getting an extra 50 GP each check. If you took the slow path, and somehow needed it to turn a 37 into a 40 at every single level (which is obviously impossible), that's only 3600 GP over 12 levels. There's some boons that uncap day job or, more importantly, give really good rewards for hitting DC40 (like regain 1 spent prestige), which make it OK, but without outside knowledge it's useless.

edit: Underground Business from Pathfinder Society Primer costs 5PP to add +1 to day job check, and because that's so useful it makes natural 1s give you 0GP, regardless of result. There's vanities that explicitly do nothing mechanically (Herald), but this one doesn't even have RP value since you can have Profession (Pimp) without it.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on January 09, 2020, 10:05:19 AM
An old spell, but still amazingly bad:
Quote
DEADLY FINALE
Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 214
School evocation [sonic]; Level bard 6, skald 6
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets 1 creature/3 levels no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
You must have a bardic performance in effect to cast this spell. With a flourish, you immediately end your performance, dealing 2d8 points of sonic damage to each target. In addition, each target takes 3d6 points of bleed damage for 1d6 rounds. A save negates the bleed damage but not the sonic damage.
Out of the box, this spell is complete shit. With a Maximize Spell this does 124 damage over an amazing length of 6 rounds, and that's assuming that your enemies inexplicably do not have Fast Healing or Regeneration or a source of healing or a modifier of +5 or higher to Heal skill so they can just perform First Aid as a standard action and remove the bleed damage. So bleed damage is really easily negated at these levels. I guess if you also use Furious Spell (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Furious%20Spell) you can raise the bleed damage by another 6 (12 if only targeting a single person). So as the Bard's amazing finisher, this spell is hot garbage. Heroic Finale (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Heroic%20Finale) is a much better finisher than this.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on January 09, 2020, 06:56:34 PM
Level 6? Wow
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on January 09, 2020, 08:59:52 PM
It's multiple targets, so it would suck up your opponent's action economy to use cure spells (unless they use the mass version). Still pretty useless since anything you'd want to try wearing down with bleed will likely have a high fortitude.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on January 09, 2020, 10:19:04 PM
It needs a Maximize Spell rod just to have a possibility of being viable and even then it's a slow kill with many caveats. If you just want to waste a turn of your opponents', you should be casting Irresistible Dance (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Irresistible%20Dance) or Greater Song of Discord (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Song%20of%20Discord,%20Greater) since even a successful save causes them to be hit for 1 round by those. You can also use Stunning Finale (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stunning%20Finale) (use Arcane Concordance (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arcane%20Concordance) for Extend Spell) or Archon's Trumpet (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Archon%27s%20Trumpet) if we're using Fort saves to screw enemies out of turns. There are so many better options.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on January 10, 2020, 02:35:02 AM
authoritative (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Authoritative%20Spell) magic missile can do almost the same
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on January 10, 2020, 09:52:44 AM
Here's another incredibly terrible spell:
Quote
PHANTASMAL REMINDER
Source Magic Tactics Toolbox pg. 26
School illusion (phantasm) [mind-affecting]; Level antipaladin 3, arcanist 3, bard 4, mesmerist 3, psychic 3, shaman 4, skald 4, sorcerer 3, witch 3, wizard 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one living creature
Duration 1 round (see text)
Saving Throw Will disbelief, then Fortitude partial; see text; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
You create a memory loop of a successful attack made against the target, forcing its conscious mind to recall the details of the attack in such excruciating detail that its physical body is racked by the recollection. This spell can affect only a creature that has taken damage since the end of your last turn. The target first can attempt a Will save to recognize the attack as unreal. If it fails that saving throw, the target must succeed at a Fortitude save or take an amount of damage equal to 1d6 × your caster level (maximum 10d6). Because the damage is a quasi-real memory of existing wounds, this damage can’t be reduced or prevented (such as by the shield other (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shield%20Other) spell).

If the target of a phantasmal reminder attack succeeds at the Will save to disbelieve the memory loop and either has natural telepathy or is wearing a helm of telepathy, the memory of damage automatically rebounds to affect you. You must immediately attempt a Will save to disbelieve; if you fail, you take half the spell’s damage yourself.
Note that the Bard gets it at a +1 spell level penalty. After all, this spell might be too good otherwise. I guess if you use Extend Spell and Maximize Spell you can get it to hit twice for decent damage (especially with Intensify Spell for a higher damage cap) assuming you fixed the shitty double save with Resilient Illusions (https://www.aonprd.com/WizardArcaneDiscoveries.aspx) discovery or some other stunt, but holy shit is this one lousy spell.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on January 10, 2020, 11:08:17 PM
So the damage of Fireball at the same spell level, but with a plethora of drawbacks and one trivial, situational benefit.  Who wrote that obvious trash?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on January 11, 2020, 12:10:28 AM
Not only is it a bad spell mechanically, thematically it tries to steal the Mesmerist's main class feature. Painful Stare is actually pretty decent.

Who wrote that obvious trash?

Alexander Augunas, Steven T. Helt, Thurston Hillman, or Ron Lundeen
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on January 11, 2020, 06:39:19 PM
I wouldn't rush to fault the writers. It could easily be the fault of a zealous editor who did one of paizo's infamous "balancing" passes and fixed something that wasn't broken, turning an okay spell into hot garbage. That happens a lot.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on January 11, 2020, 09:58:39 PM
True.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on January 12, 2020, 08:18:37 PM
I wouldn't rush to fault the writers. It could easily be the fault of a zealous editor who did one of paizo's infamous "balancing" passes and fixed something that wasn't broken, turning an okay spell into hot garbage. That happens a lot.
Ah c'mon, guy.  WotC did it all the time too!  Invisible Blade with its ranged Feat prerequisites while having not one ability related to ranged combat being the most blatant example of editorial dipshittery.  Its a grand D20 sacred cow!

But it would have been less pithy to ask who wrote or edited that trash.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on February 02, 2020, 03:39:11 AM
Feint Defender (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Feint%20Defender) raises the DC to feint your by your shield's AC bonus. If that wasn't bad enough, it has meaningful prerequisites. Surprisingly this came from a book that's actually considered pretty OK crunch wise (Armor Master's Handbook). As a full BAB class, Fighter (which it requires) is already hard to feint. Magus is the only thing I can recall offhand that even count as fighter without full BAB, and they're even frequently dex based so being feinted hurts them... but they don't use shields.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on March 13, 2020, 11:09:26 AM
Another awful spell:
Quote
DAMNATION
Source Horror Adventures pg. 115
School evocation [good]; Level cleric 3, inquisitor 3, oracle 3, paladin 3, warpriest 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a drop of holy water)
EFFECT
Area 30-ft.-radius burst centered on you
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will half; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
You pass judgment on your enemies’ intentions and punish them with holy power. Each creature in the spell’s area takes 1d8 points of damage per spell level, determined by the most powerful effect with the evil descriptor either affecting that creature or in its spell repertoire. A caster who prepares spells takes this damage based on the highest-level evil spell he prepared that day, even if he already cast that spell. A spontaneous spellcaster takes this damage based on the highest-level evil spell she knows, even if she has no remaining spell slots available to cast that spell. A creature with evil spell-like abilities takes this damage based on the highest-level evil spell-like ability it can use. A creature who doesn’t cast spells but is the willing beneficiary of evil spells takes this damage based on the highest-level evil spell currently affecting it, including spells that affect an area such as desecrate. A creature subject to the harmful effects of an evil spell are unaffected unless it voluntarily accepted the spell’s effects.
Note that it's probably only usable on spell casters and yet is a will save for half damage (the universal strong save of spellcasters). The only interesting bit here is that it's a non mind-affecting will save. Just another one of those spells no one will ever prepare or add to their Spells Known.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on March 13, 2020, 03:56:57 PM
There's some outsiders with [evil] SLAs... but outsiders are also high Will. Even if the outsider did have an [evil] SLA, you'd be better off with a level 2 Spear of Purity
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on March 13, 2020, 04:42:17 PM
it only cares about Evil spells/SLA, and thats a pretty tiny set of spells compared to most of the elemental descriptors (looks like there's ~130 from my Nethys search), basically half are Necromancy and a bunch are lesser/greater/improved/superior versions.

yes, super terrible
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on March 13, 2020, 05:24:03 PM
Does it even work on variable alignment subtype stuff like Summon Monsters and the Summon (the special SLA evil outsiders often have)? That's the only [evil] spell that's reasonably common till all the high level demons and devils start packing Blasphemy SLAs.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: snakeman830 on March 14, 2020, 01:47:39 PM
There's some outsiders with [evil] SLAs... but outsiders are also high Will. Even if the outsider did have an [evil] SLA, you'd be better off with a level 2 Spear of Purity
Some Undead as well.

Which...also have high Will saves.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Garryl on March 21, 2020, 11:15:17 AM
Does it even work on variable alignment subtype stuff like Summon Monsters and the Summon (the special SLA evil outsiders often have)? That's the only [evil] spell that's reasonably common till all the high level demons and devils start packing Blasphemy SLAs.

It shouldn't. I'm pretty sure those only have their descriptors at the time of casting.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on March 26, 2020, 04:04:11 PM
Habit of the Winter Explorer (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Habit%20of%20the%20Winter%20Explorer) is kind of confusingly written. It is a body slot item that requires you to wear items for 3 other additional slots to work, but seem to not count against those other slots.

Quote
This warm outfit consists of a woolen coat and pants, boots, gloves, and a heavy fur cloak with a leather hood.
*snip*
All pieces of the habit of the winter explorer must be worn for the item to function.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on March 26, 2020, 06:10:03 PM
I think the intent was some combination of mundane outfits being full outfits and gloves needing both to be worn. Even if it was one slot though, I don't really see it being worth the cost.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on March 26, 2020, 06:32:21 PM
fixed the link

yeah, its very niche, 3/5 of the abilities only work within or in relation to cold weather
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Libertad on March 26, 2020, 08:00:22 PM
I'm heartened to see that this thread's still continuing in the near-eight years since I first posted it.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on March 26, 2020, 10:08:52 PM
really has been awhile
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on March 27, 2020, 12:17:21 AM
Frankly, while going back through 3E stuff I've found plenty of crap comparable to stuff in this thread. I should make a thread for that next time I encounter one. Problem would be you've got entire subsystems that are poorly thought out.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on March 27, 2020, 02:11:24 AM
Like we've got better to do.  :smirk
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Maelphaxerazz on April 01, 2020, 10:52:19 PM
I'm heartened to see that this thread's still continuing in the near-eight years since I first posted it.
Is it truly heartening, when that means that Paizo has been publishing absolute trash for years?  :bigeyes
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on April 02, 2020, 08:24:51 AM
I guess we never did go over PF's Vow of Poverty (https://www.aonprd.com/MonkVows.aspx) Monk. Seeing as PF's Vow of Poverty appears to be deliberately so bad no one would want to take it, I genuinely suspect someone in Paizo wrote this vow as some kind of revenge for 3.5's Vow of Poverty feat, which they apparently had some kind of grudge against.
Quote
Poverty (Ultimate Magic pg. 50): The monk taking a vow of poverty must never own more than six possessions—a simple set of clothing, a pair of sandals or shoes, a bowl, a sack, a blanket, and any one other item. Five of these items must be of plain and simple make, though one can be of some value (often an heirloom of great personal significance to the monk). The monk can never keep more money or wealth on his person than he needs to feed, bathe, and shelter himself for 1 week in modest accommodations. He cannot borrow or carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to others. He is allowed to accept and use curative potions (or similar magical items where the item is consumed and is valueless thereafter) from other creatures. A monk with this vow increases his ki pool by 1 ki point for every 2 monk levels (minimum +1).
It's worth noting that PF's VoP does permit the Monk to own a single item worth money and that the Monk can donate his income to his party members.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Rejakor on April 02, 2020, 12:47:50 PM
This is less bad, and more 'what the fuck'.

Souldrinker (https://aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Souldrinker), a prestige class you enter at 8th.  With 2 levels in it you can make any amount of magic items for free.  Takes time still.  And you 'only' get like around 5-10,000gp of free magic item goldcost per day unless you minmax it (and why wouldn't you).  This is one of the most straightforward ways to get free magic items i've ever seen.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on April 02, 2020, 02:38:04 PM
I genuinely suspect it feels like someone in PF wrote this vow as some kind of revenge for 3.5's Vow of Poverty feat, which they apparently had some kind of grudge against.
Feels like there are lots of those grudges in Pathfinder.   Like the deliberate blocking of sneak attack damage with splash weapons.  Making Flurry of Blows into Two Weapon Fighting.  Power Attack losing granularity.  Untyped bonuses derived from ability scores somehow being a type.   "Stop playing WRONG!"
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Kethrian on April 02, 2020, 02:55:15 PM
Also taking away reach from the spiked chain.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on April 02, 2020, 02:56:33 PM
Power Attack I think may have been a legitimate, if misguided, attempt to speed up play by ending mid-combat recalculation of attack/damage bonus and Flurry change may have been poor math. Sneak attack with splash weapons was absolutely a grudge thing though.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on April 02, 2020, 04:04:08 PM
The Power Attack rules change did have the bad result that at high levels you are better off not using the feat than using it, unless you are using tricks to obtain extraordinarily high attack bonuses, but if you are doing that sort of thing you could've just obtained high damage bonuses without using Power Attack.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on April 02, 2020, 06:05:09 PM
Also taking away reach from the spiked chain.
They should have just taken away the spiked chain.    Plenty of actual weapons to use in the same role, like the kusari-gama.  :p  Also, the Starknife is twice the munchkin the spiked chain ever was, and nearly as silly.  Author's Pet, the other side of the grudge. 

Are we at the point we should start a new thread for our kvetching?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: nijineko on April 08, 2020, 04:10:14 PM
Does everyone using the PFSRD and thinking it's all official instead of the actual official PRD count?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on April 08, 2020, 07:10:50 PM
I use d20pfsrd for its search function, which handles complex queries better (looking for a magic item that produce a particular spell or a spell that meets certain requirements). I use AoN if I know what I'm looking for or am looking through the complete list of spells/items/talents.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanshork on April 08, 2020, 09:02:42 PM
I think d20pfsrd is way better organized, but each page tells you if the entry is official or 3rd party so people don't really have an excuse IMO.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nytemare3701 on April 09, 2020, 02:09:06 AM
This is less bad, and more 'what the fuck'.

Souldrinker (https://aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Souldrinker), a prestige class you enter at 8th.  With 2 levels in it you can make any amount of magic items for free.  Takes time still.  And you 'only' get like around 5-10,000gp of free magic item goldcost per day unless you minmax it (and why wouldn't you).  This is one of the most straightforward ways to get free magic items i've ever seen.

I feel like this is a good way to make a villain with a stupid amount of magic items that the players won't use because they are all powered by souls.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Rejakor on April 18, 2020, 07:54:24 PM

I feel like this is a good way to make a villain with a stupid amount of magic items that the players won't use because they are all powered by souls.

Well technically they're powered by the souldrinker touching himself negatively over and over again, but like, that's also somewhat icky if you phrase it right.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nytemare3701 on April 19, 2020, 02:41:52 AM

I feel like this is a good way to make a villain with a stupid amount of magic items that the players won't use because they are all powered by souls.

Well technically they're powered by the souldrinker touching himself negatively over and over again, but like, that's also somewhat icky if you phrase it right.

I thought we already did blood money + fabricate?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on April 20, 2020, 01:47:18 AM
its a another way to do it, that isn't as well known as Blood Money
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nytemare3701 on April 20, 2020, 03:09:51 AM
its a another way to do it, that isn't as well known as Blood Money

*insert long-winded argument about people being forced to sell themselves to survive in this economy*
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on April 20, 2020, 07:56:21 AM
Blood Money is apparently a Rise of the Runelords specific spell which comes from a single rare spellbook, but databases of spells have a way of stripping such context. Anyway, that doesn't really stop Sorcerers from spontaneously learning the spell or Psychics using the mnemonic esoterica power, and so forth.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: snakeman830 on April 26, 2020, 06:33:44 PM
This is less bad, and more 'what the fuck'.

Souldrinker (https://aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Souldrinker), a prestige class you enter at 8th.  With 2 levels in it you can make any amount of magic items for free.  Takes time still.  And you 'only' get like around 5-10,000gp of free magic item goldcost per day unless you minmax it (and why wouldn't you).  This is one of the most straightforward ways to get free magic items i've ever seen.

Looks like it doesn't really have much of a limit.  You can only have so much stored up at once, but if you can keep inflicting negative levels, you keep recharging that pool as much as you like.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on June 12, 2020, 02:20:07 PM
the shoony (https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=16) 2e ancestry

pug people made by Aroden
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on June 14, 2020, 06:00:17 PM
PF2E should be a new thread, I think, and probably not in the 3.X subforum.

Quote
SHRUG ON (COMBAT)
Source Melee Tactics Toolbox pg. 15
You can throw on the most important element of your armor in a flash.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, medium armor proficiency.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can shrug yourself into the largest and most protective section of a suit of armor with which you are proficient. The armor does not grant any magical benefits in this state, and its armor check penalty and maximum Dexterity bonus to AC are both 2 worse than normal. When donned using this feat, medium armor grants a +3 armor bonus, and heavy armor grants a +5 armor bonus. Light armor grants no armor bonus when donned using this feat.
You can tell a zealous editor got ahold of this feat and decided that equipping armor as a full-round action was overpowered (somehow) and went ahead "rebalancing" it before publication. The result is this ridiculous waste of space. Seriously, how does paizo manage to hire people this incompetent?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on June 15, 2020, 01:30:43 PM
seems dumb, esp flavor-wise since some armors are just a single piece, like a chain shirt.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on June 16, 2020, 12:36:34 PM
Because Pathfinder was written by "Stop Having Fun Guys" in the first place.  Play their way and avoid wrongbadfun.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on June 16, 2020, 06:24:53 PM
i thought it was by the "hey, this big company is leaving a bunch of their customers behind, lets make their product better and steal them" guys
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on June 17, 2020, 12:52:17 AM
The same book has the Armiger's Armor, which can be dawned instantly and has only a 2000 GP premium.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on June 17, 2020, 02:57:21 PM
The funniest thing is that if they took out all the penalties, it still wouldn't be worth taking anyway. It would only see use on rare occasion for Brawlers and the like with their martial flexibility.

Right now the only use for it is to exploit Fungal Blisters (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Fungal%20Blisters) (preferably Maximized) to do extreme amounts of damage, although the Wizard casting list has Serren's Swift Girding (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Serren%27s%20Swift%20Girding) anyway.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Keldar on June 17, 2020, 07:35:32 PM
i thought it was by the "hey, this big company is leaving a bunch of their customers behind, lets make their product better and steal them" guys
They can be two things, or even three!  But they only get the favored class bonus for one of them.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: nijineko on June 18, 2020, 09:48:28 AM
i thought it was by the "hey, this big company is leaving a bunch of their customers behind, lets make their product better and steal them" guys

Like most rebellions, they eventually become not only the thing they were rebelling against, but worse than the original....

They failed to learn from history, and failed to stick to their original goals. And so, they will continue to make lots of money by failing the community, unless and until they pull a TSR 2e and crumble from within.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on June 18, 2020, 01:58:39 PM
Right now the only use for it is to exploit Fungal Blisters (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Fungal%20Blisters) (preferably Maximized) to do extreme amounts of damage, although the Wizard casting list has Serren's Swift Girding (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Serren%27s%20Swift%20Girding) anyway.

have a set of Double-Plated Armored Coat (or Erutaki Coat), which you can Swift Gird to explode your blisters and then as a move action remove the armor.

each blister dealing 1d6+1 per 2 CL (no max) is pretty nasty. skyrocketing your CL beforehand can make things really nasty (like Coven Caster+Army Across Time).

Empower Spell is a pretty solid choice too, since it affects both the blister numbers and the damage numbers.

i thought it was by the "hey, this big company is leaving a bunch of their customers behind, lets make their product better and steal them" guys

Like most rebellions, they eventually become not only the thing they were rebelling against, but worse than the original....

They failed to learn from history, and failed to stick to their original goals. And so, they will continue to make lots of money by failing the community, unless and until they pull a TSR 2e and crumble from within.

agreed
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on September 08, 2020, 04:30:24 PM
Quote
UNSACTIONED DETECTION
Source Ultimate Magic pg. 158
You can focus your ability to detect evil for more practical or mundane purposes

Prerequisites: Detect evil class feature.

Benefit: As a swift action, you can focus the clarity granted by your detect evil ability to heighten your awareness of other things. This gives you a +10 sacred bonus on Perception and Sense Motive checks for one round. This expends your use of the detect evil class ability for the next 24 hours.
Give up your ability to detect evil for 24 hours in exchange for a single round of +10 to Perception and Sense Motive at the low price of an entire feat. Seriously, who writes this crap?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on September 20, 2020, 12:59:34 PM
Here is an incredible abomination of a feat:

Quote
ANIMAL FEROCITY (COMBAT)
Source Ultimate Wilderness pg. 106
When cornered and wounded, you fight like a feral beast.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3, ferocity racial ability.

Benefit: When your hit points are reduced below 0, you can make attacks, but you take a –5 penalty on each attack roll.

All downside, zero upside. Yep, Paizo has done it. They printed a feat where not having it is strictly better than having it. Definitely the result of a zealous editor nerfing a feat in multiple directions until it becomes worse than useless.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ketaro on September 21, 2020, 03:07:23 AM
"Hello sir, have you heard of our lord & savior, Diehard?"
Like, come on.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on September 21, 2020, 08:44:04 AM
You missed the part where it has ferocity as a prerequisite and doesn't even permit full attacks, just attacking. The feat does absolutely nothing for you.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on September 22, 2020, 04:02:00 PM
even if you do make multiple attacks (via different options), it gives you a -5 penalty that you would not have if you did not have the feat
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Kethrian on September 22, 2020, 04:04:37 PM
It's even worse than the feat that "lets" you shoot a crossbow from prone "without penalty" (there isn't one to begin with).
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on September 22, 2020, 07:25:59 PM
Frankly, while going back through 3E stuff I've found plenty of crap comparable to stuff in this thread. I should make a thread for that next time I encounter one. Problem would be you've got entire subsystems that are poorly thought out.
Just because we haven't touched those doesn't mean Pathfinder doesn't have them.

Mythic is the most famously bad system PF has but Kingdom Building rules are a mess too and I'm rather certain there are messes in Ultimate Intrigue, Ultimate Combat, and more.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on September 22, 2020, 10:28:50 PM
True.

It's even worse than the feat that "lets" you shoot a crossbow from prone "without penalty" (there isn't one to begin with).

That one was officially blamed on the editors. The author said it was supposed to give a bonus till editors changed it.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on September 23, 2020, 07:56:54 AM
Well, time for another failure of a feat:

Quote
BLAZING AURA (CONDUIT)
Source Planar Adventures pg. 26
You cover yourself in coils of flame drawn from the Plane of Fire.

Prerequisites: Knowledge (planes) 3 ranks.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can shroud yourself in fire. Until the end of your turn, whenever a creature makes a successful melee attack against you, that creature takes a number of points of fire damage equal to 1d6 plus half your ranks in Knowledge (planes); attacks made using reach weapons ignore this effect. A creature can halve this fire damage with a successful Reflex save (DC = 10 + half your level + your Constitution modifier).

You can use this feat’s benefit a number of times per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (planes). If you have at least 9 ranks in Knowledge (planes), activating this ability is a move action. If you have at least 15 ranks in Knowledge (planes), you can activate this ability as a move action or a swift action.

Another feat ruined by incompetent Paizo editors. This would not have been a good feat even if they didn't savage it.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on September 23, 2020, 11:55:30 AM
Where's the part that shows it was ruined by "editors"? All I see is a feat granting temporary use of an uncommon and underwhelming monster effect.  It's bad, but I miss the part where it's super crappy. Is it the reflex save? Some variants of the ability do have one.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on September 23, 2020, 12:12:05 PM
The magic words are "until the end of your turn." It's also worth noting that this ability uses a standard action.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Kethrian on September 23, 2020, 12:56:26 PM
It's not great.  Only usable against AoOs, though you are left with at minimum a move action with which to provoke as many as possible.  And it does eventually improve to only a swift action to activate.  I'd struggle to choose between this and Toughness.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on September 23, 2020, 01:16:32 PM
3.5 Toughness maybe. PF Toughness is easily much, much better and more practical.

If you burn a standard action you only have move actions to trigger this. Once you are at 9th level, you can use a move action, but doing so leaves you with only a standard action to provoke a successful AoO where this might do something. Moreover at levels 9+ your odds of facing enemies with 5 fire resist or higher (or evasion) rise dramatically, further reducing the feat into worthlessness. The feat does virtually nothing. And in the event that your feat would actually cause any AoO you take to be better for you than your opponent, your opponent can simply choose not to take the AoO in the first place, since the feat is extremely unsubtle.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Kethrian on September 23, 2020, 04:39:42 PM
Yeah, I was referring to 3.5e Toughness.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on September 23, 2020, 04:49:15 PM
Oh wow, that IS horrible.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on September 24, 2020, 10:03:52 AM
I really wonder where paizo gets editors so bad as to not recognize the pure fail in "As a standard action, you can shroud yourself in fire. Until the end of your turn, whenever a creature makes a successful melee attack against you..." It takes talent to be that incompetent. Maybe I'm just biased, but I feel like it should be their job to carefully look these things over.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on September 24, 2020, 02:41:11 PM
going in the opposite direction, Kraken Throttle was effectively an insta-kill using grapple
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on December 01, 2020, 08:59:04 PM
We don't seem to have too many items listed. We should fix that. Check this item out:
Quote
GAUNTLETS OF THE WEAPONMASTER
Price 110,000 gp; Slot hands; CL 10th; Weight 5 lbs; Aura strong conjuration
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 235

These gauntlets come in a variety of forms. Some are mostly leather with small steel plates, and are suited for fine swordplay. Others are fully articulated plate favored by knights in full plate. On command, the wearer of the gauntlet can store a single weapon he is holding in the gauntlets. When he does so, a graven image of the weapon appears on the gauntlet’s plates. The wearer can store up to 10 weapons in the gauntlets in this manner. Retrieving a weapon requires the wearer to touch the image of the weapon he wants. Doing so is a swift action. When a weapon is retrieved, it appears in the hands of the wearer and any weapons the wearer had in his hands is stored in the gauntlets. If there is no room in the gauntlet for the weapons the wearer is holding, those weapons are dropped. The gauntlets can only store weapons; other items cannot be placed in the gauntlet.

Furthermore, three times per day on command, the gloves affect the wearer as the greater heroism (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Heroism,%20Greater) spell.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 55,500 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, heroism, rope trick
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on December 01, 2020, 11:44:47 PM
The problem looks more like the item is one of many victims of getting the ability to cast a spell a few items a day in addition to its other properties, massively inflating the price as a result. That's hardly a problem unique to this item or PF material (3E had it aplenty).

By the guidelines for item creation, the ability to cast Greater Heroism (6th level spell with a minimum CL of 11) is worth 79199.99999999998GP. Subtracting that from the item leaves 30800.00000000002. Remove the 1.5 modifier for multiple properties by dividing by three and multiplying by 2 to get 20,533.33333333335. At that price it's merely a highly mediocre item. It offers stealth (worth at least 5000 GP via Sheath of Bladestealth, which only hides one weapon and can be discovered with a patdown), implied weight savings (note it works on any kind of weapon, so long as you can hold it, so it could hold some weapons of increased size. Assuming large two handed weapons that's ~250 pounds or a 2500 GP bag of holding), and some action economy manipulation for users without Quickdraw (since it allows preforming a full round action and drawing a weapon on the same turn. Biggest use off the top of my head is a Magus using spell combat with a spell that grants movement like Bladed Dash or Dimension Door) and wants to swap weapons (since speeding up sheathing weapons to draw other ones is oddly unsupported in first party material). It's not worth 20500 GP, but that's a lot less "What the hell were they thinking with that price?".
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on December 16, 2020, 02:33:46 AM
didn't realize this was a mechanic...

Quote from: River into Darkness
Rheumatoid Arthritis (Ex) This painful
condition makes Hurg bend over double.
While it limits his speed, it also allows him
to move through the lower deck of the
River Queen without squeezing.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on December 23, 2020, 05:55:47 PM
I guess we may as well include absurd FAQ entries into this thread. Here's one of paizo's infamous ass-pull retcon rulings from the PF Core Rulesbook FAQ (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tza):
Quote
Q:  What exactly do I identify when I’m using Spellcraft to identify a spell? Is it the components, since spell-like abilities, for instance, don’t have any? If I can only identify components, would that mean that I can’t take an attack of opportunity against someone using a spell-like ability (or spell with no verbal, somatic, or material components) or ready an action to shoot an arrow to disrupt a spell-like ability? If there’s something else, how do I know what it is?

A: Although this isn’t directly stated in the Core Rulebook, many elements of the game system work assuming that all spells have their own manifestations, regardless of whether or not they also produce an obvious visual effect, like fireball. You can see some examples to give you ideas of how to describe a spell’s manifestation in various pieces of art from Pathfinder products, but ultimately, the choice is up to your group, or perhaps even to the aesthetics of an individual spellcaster, to decide the exact details. Whatever the case, these manifestations are obviously magic of some kind, even to the uninitiated; this prevents spellcasters that use spell-like abilities, psychic magic, and the like from running completely amok against non-spellcasters in a non-combat situation. Special abilities exist (and more are likely to appear in Ultimate Intrigue) that specifically facilitate a spellcaster using chicanery to misdirect people from those manifestations and allow them to go unnoticed, but they will always provide an onlooker some sort of chance to detect the ruse.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
:lol :lmao :lmao :lmao :lol
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

This looks like the kind of work (typically passive-aggressive) non-confrontational people do, the kind of people who have fragile egos and cannot straight-out say "okay psychic spellcasting was a bad idea and we're going to have to redo parts of it" and thus try to dance around discussing their problems by instead indirectly resolving some of them in a way that unsurprisingly comes with significant collateral damage.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on December 24, 2020, 03:36:48 AM
yeah, one of the dumbest FAQ i've seen

doesn't that negate half of the Detect Magic spell?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on December 24, 2020, 04:22:04 PM
It does obviate the parts where detect magic lets you catch a person casting spells in unnoticeable ways. Although detect magic is broken in PF since cantrips are at-will now and having people walk around dungeons and social situations spamming detect magic on everything makes a complete mess of things.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on March 02, 2021, 08:15:03 PM
Not so much bad, but pretty hard to miss when you read it and thus blatant enough to be mentioned here
Quote
If the item does not fit into any of these categories, the broken condition has no effect on its use. Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value. If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a mending or make whole spell cast by a character with a caster level equal to or higher than the item’s. Items lose the broken condition if the spell restores the object to half its original hit points or higher. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 Craft check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item’s total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined).

A chain shirt costs 100 GP, which is doable with starting wealth but fairly restrictive. Buy a broken chain shirt (10 out of 20 HP) for 75GP, pay an armorer 10 GP to spend 10 hours repairing it. Now you've got a chain shirt for 85 GP, which gives plenty of room for a heavy armor class to pick up their normal stuff and the armor.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on April 10, 2021, 08:40:27 AM
Wrong thread. That belongs more in the "Fun Pathfinds" thread since you've found a discount. You can also use the mending cantrip to fix those objects yourself. Another trick for cheaper items on chargen is to use backstory crafting for a much bigger discount, but you'll want to make sure your character can consistently pass the DCs for those checks while taking 10.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on April 10, 2021, 12:06:32 PM
Maybe, but "discount on anything" within a paragraph screams bad writing enough to qualify for this. Mending has a low enough weight limit it doesn't work for anything of particular value.

Crafting in backstory requires you blow some kind of resource for all the but most basic stuff (only armor, simple weapons and bows have craft DCs between 10 and 15), since even a Wizard can't get a +5 bonus from intelligence alone. Only Alchemists (who need Craft: Alchemy anyways and get Crafter's Fortune) and maybe Gunslinger (who need Craft:Gunsmithing but are balanced around crafting their own stuff to the degree PFS has to break their no crafting rule for them) can really benefit from it without spending extra character resources.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on April 16, 2021, 03:54:20 AM
Adopted + Scrounger (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Scrounger) = broken items cost 50% instead of 75%

downside? it takes a TON of knick-knacks to make a ton of profit

Quote
Scrounger: Others may call it junk, but you call it a
bargain. You can buy objects with the broken condition
at half price (instead of the normal three-quarters price).
The value of the unbroken version of these objects cannot
exceed four times your character level. The price you
pay for this object can never exceed more than twice your
character level in gp (for example, at 5th level you can spend
up to 10 gp on a broken object, meaning you can buy any
object that, if not broken, has a value of 20 gp or less).



Destined for Greatness (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Destined%20for%20Greatness) would be a better way to make a profit. get your free kit, walk around and sell everything. after you walk outside for some fresh air, your kit is mystically restored and you can go ahead and sell things again

Quote
Destined for Greatness:
Ever since you were a child growing up in one of Absalom’s vast
city quarters, you’ve been obsessed with the Starstone Cathedral
and the prospect of acquiring true divinity by passing the Test
of the Starstone. Though it remains to be seen whether you
will ever achieve your long-standing dream, your
fascination with the would-be deities who
enter the Starstone Cathedral and never come
back has granted you no small measure of
savvy when it comes to preparing to explore
dungeons. You start with a kit (such as
those found on page 7 or in Pathfinder RPG
Ultimate Equipment) worth no more than 300
gp, and the expendable contents of the kit
are automatically restored to their original
capacity at no cost to you whenever you enter a
settlement with a population of at least 2,500.
Suggestion: Consider playing a character
who worships, reveres, or perhaps even envies
one of the Ascended—Cayden Cailean, Iomedae, or Norgorber.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: allison-kaas on July 25, 2021, 10:24:03 PM
Here is an incredible abomination of a feat:

Quote
ANIMAL FEROCITY (COMBAT)
Source Ultimate Wilderness pg. 106
When cornered and wounded, you fight like a feral beast.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3, ferocity racial ability.

Benefit: When your hit points are reduced below 0, you can make attacks, but you take a –5 penalty on each attack roll.

All downside, zero upside. Yep, Paizo has done it. They printed a feat where not having it is strictly better than having it. Definitely the result of a zealous editor nerfing a feat in multiple directions until it becomes worse than useless.

Attacking with a penalty is worse than not being able to attack at all?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Kethrian on July 25, 2021, 10:26:52 PM
Here is an incredible abomination of a feat:

Quote
ANIMAL FEROCITY (COMBAT)
Source Ultimate Wilderness pg. 106
When cornered and wounded, you fight like a feral beast.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3, ferocity racial ability.

Benefit: When your hit points are reduced below 0, you can make attacks, but you take a –5 penalty on each attack roll.

All downside, zero upside. Yep, Paizo has done it. They printed a feat where not having it is strictly better than having it. Definitely the result of a zealous editor nerfing a feat in multiple directions until it becomes worse than useless.

Attacking with a penalty is worse than not being able to attack at all?

 Ferocity

A Creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. The Creature is still staggered and loses 1 hit point each round. A Creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.


So it lets you do something you can already do, but at a penalty that you otherwise don't have.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: kitep on July 25, 2021, 10:57:50 PM
Quote
Ferocity

A Creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. The Creature is still staggered and loses 1 hit point each round. A Creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.

Staggered means you can make one move or standard action, eg 1 and only 1 attack.
Animal Ferocity lets you make a full attack action.


Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: allison-kaas on July 25, 2021, 11:11:53 PM
Quote
Ferocity

A Creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. The Creature is still staggered and loses 1 hit point each round. A Creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.

Staggered means you can make one move or standard action, eg 1 and only 1 attack.
Animal Ferocity lets you make a full attack action.

where does it say full attack?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on July 25, 2021, 11:28:20 PM
Animal Frenzy doesn't let you make a full attack
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on July 26, 2021, 02:56:21 AM
And if you had pounce, you could full attack while staggered anyways since Pounce still works on that funky charge you can do when restricted to one action
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: kitep on July 26, 2021, 11:24:07 PM
where does it say full attack?

On the d20pfsrd website.    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/animal-ferocity-combat/

Quote
Animal Ferocity (Combat)
When cornered and wounded, you fight like a feral beast.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3, ferocity racial ability.

Benefit: When your hit points are reduced below 0, you can still take the full attack action [Source], but you take a –5 penalty on each attack roll.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on July 27, 2021, 11:39:19 PM
The citation (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1hj#v5748eaic9wc8) is to an FAQ stated planned errata, but to my knowledge, Paizo's policy was only to do errata if a book got a second printing, and UW never got one so it was never officially errated. Further proof that errata policy is dumb.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on July 29, 2021, 03:57:28 PM
surprise surprise.. another FAQ not going into a book
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on July 30, 2021, 12:29:11 PM
And if you had pounce, you could full attack while staggered anyways since Pounce still works on that funky charge you can do when restricted to one action
Yep. You can also use a Ring of Ferocious Action (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicRingsDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Ring%20of%20Ferocious%20Action) to ignore the staggered condition for 5 rounds per day, or use the Accelerate (http://legacy.aonprd.com/ultimateMagic/wordsOfPower/effectWords/timeWords.html#accelerate-(time)) Word of Power (http://legacy.aonprd.com/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicWordsOfPower.html) through the Experimental Spellcaster (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Experimental%20Spellcaster) feat to give yourself a bonus move action. It's a pretty good wordspell as it allows melee classes to have an extra move action, letting them both move and full attack in the same round. And then there is using feats like Deathless Initiate (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Deathless%20Initiate), To the Last (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=To%20the%20Last), Ferocious Action (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ferocious%20Action), and Unyielding Ferocity (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Unyielding%20Ferocity) to full attack while staggered from being below 0 health and none of them give a -5 penalty to attacks (Deathless Initiate even gives +2 to attack and damage when below 0).
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: nijineko on July 31, 2021, 11:07:45 PM
Not so much bad, but pretty hard to miss when you read it and thus blatant enough to be mentioned here
Quote
If the item does not fit into any of these categories, the broken condition has no effect on its use. Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value. If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a mending or make whole spell cast by a character with a caster level equal to or higher than the item’s. Items lose the broken condition if the spell restores the object to half its original hit points or higher. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 Craft check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item’s total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined).

A chain shirt costs 100 GP, which is doable with starting wealth but fairly restrictive. Buy a broken chain shirt (10 out of 20 HP) for 75GP, pay an armorer 10 GP to spend 10 hours repairing it. Now you've got a chain shirt for 85 GP, which gives plenty of room for a heavy armor class to pick up their normal stuff and the armor.

Wait... you mean you can sell a broken thing for MORE than you can used?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Kethrian on August 01, 2021, 12:39:50 AM
Unless there's something letting you resell it after for full price instead of half, then no.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on August 01, 2021, 05:06:36 PM
gems n jewelry sell for 100%

buy broke rings, get em repaired and sell for profit
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on August 07, 2021, 01:33:11 PM
Here's another incredibly terrible spell:
Quote
PHANTASMAL REMINDER
Source Magic Tactics Toolbox pg. 26
School illusion (phantasm) [mind-affecting]; Level antipaladin 3, arcanist 3, bard 4, mesmerist 3, psychic 3, shaman 4, skald 4, sorcerer 3, witch 3, wizard 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one living creature
Duration 1 round (see text)
Saving Throw Will disbelief, then Fortitude partial; see text; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
You create a memory loop of a successful attack made against the target, forcing its conscious mind to recall the details of the attack in such excruciating detail that its physical body is racked by the recollection. This spell can affect only a creature that has taken damage since the end of your last turn. The target first can attempt a Will save to recognize the attack as unreal. If it fails that saving throw, the target must succeed at a Fortitude save or take an amount of damage equal to 1d6 × your caster level (maximum 10d6). Because the damage is a quasi-real memory of existing wounds, this damage can’t be reduced or prevented (such as by the shield other (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shield%20Other) spell).

If the target of a phantasmal reminder attack succeeds at the Will save to disbelieve the memory loop and either has natural telepathy or is wearing a helm of telepathy, the memory of damage automatically rebounds to affect you. You must immediately attempt a Will save to disbelieve; if you fail, you take half the spell’s damage yourself.
Note that the Bard gets it at a +1 spell level penalty. After all, this spell might be too good otherwise. I guess if you use Extend Spell and Maximize Spell you can get it to hit twice for decent damage (especially with Intensify Spell for a higher damage cap) assuming you fixed the shitty double save with Resilient Illusions (https://www.aonprd.com/WizardArcaneDiscoveries.aspx) discovery or some other stunt, but holy shit is this one lousy spell.
Well, found a stunt for it. With the Magaambyan Arcanist (https://www.aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Magaambyan%20Arcanist) prestige class and Blissful Spell (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Blissful%20Spell) metamagic, you can extend the duration of this spell by 1 round per Magaambyan Arcanist class level using Lasting Goodness (it also gets +1 caster level from Virtuous Spells).
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Garryl on August 07, 2021, 05:41:59 PM
I don't see what the duration on Phantasmal Reminder actually does. It's functionally an instantaneous effect through and through. It says to see text, but there's nothing in the text about it. The only intent behind it I can conceive of is referencing the time frame in which the subject has to have taken damage to be affected (since the end of your last turn), but even that doesn't make much sense. Durations are for spells whose effects extend past the moment of the initial casting, but nothing about the description has it do anything in that time. The saving throw line is wrong, too; it should be Fort negates, not partial.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on August 07, 2021, 05:57:12 PM
Really, it's working under the assumption that another round of duration means the Phantasmal Reminder hits again the next round. But it's a bad spell and badly worded too, frankly.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on November 13, 2021, 10:36:19 PM
https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Scale%20and%20Skin

A conditional few to gain a whole 1 AC! It's just a variant of one of the worst core feats! The sad thing is MTT is otherwise one of the best books, so how this one got in I have idea. It's less awful (but still terrible) if you can reliably keep up a 10+CL transmutation (which can be trivial and something you'd do anyways by level 10), but it was a total waste of space.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on November 14, 2021, 01:47:02 PM
That's honestly one of the better feats if you want AC. Just use Chameleon Scales (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Chameleon%20Scales), Ant Haul (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ant%20Haul), Polypurpose Panacea (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Polypurpose%20Panacea), or Mark of Blood (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Mark%20of%20Blood) to keep someone affected by a transmutation spell. Since it gives you +2 AC at CL 10+ it's actually good value for a single feat. If you have a Spell Sage Wizard or Exploiter Wizard or Arcanist you can effortlessly get +4 or +2 to CL without even involving feats or traits.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: ketaro on November 14, 2021, 03:04:09 PM
Since it gives you +2 AC level 10 it's actually good value for a single feat.

Its even better cause it says "The bonus to your natural armor bonus increases by two", the bonus being 1 and getting increased by 2 more so it's actually a +3 Untyped Natural AC bonus with a CL 10 spell on you.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on November 14, 2021, 04:40:38 PM
It's syntactically ambiguous in that delightfully paizo way, but I'm pretty sure the intention is that it only increases by 2 total.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on December 05, 2021, 10:37:29 PM
https://aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Reflex%20bow

Someone seems to have missed that composite longbows can be used mounted already. It does get a situational +1, so it's not useless but still...
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Kazimir_Iskander on December 06, 2021, 01:31:18 AM
https://aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Reflex%20bow

Someone seems to have missed that composite longbows can be used mounted already. It does get a situational +1, so it's not useless but still...

Despite the weird way they worded it to imply that composite bows can't normally be used mounted, this one is all upside. It counts as a composite bow and still benefits from all normal bow upgrades, so it's just a straight upgrade for negligible cost. It isn't even exotic.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on December 06, 2021, 02:18:34 PM
Hence
Quote
It does get a situational +1, so it's not useless
It just has absolutely no reason to exist besides not understanding the rules or stealth buffing one of the least bad pure martials. Very bad design even if it works.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: snakeman830 on December 06, 2021, 11:36:32 PM
Interestingly, it benefits from anything that can be applied to longbows or shortbows.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: kitep on December 06, 2021, 11:55:55 PM
Medium damage is 1d6.  Longbow does 1d8.  So you get a +1 to hit and -1 damage (average).
Shortbow does 1d6 and has a shorter range, so compared to a shortbow, it's better.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: TiaC on December 07, 2021, 01:34:45 AM
Interestingly, it benefits from anything that can be applied to longbows or shortbows.
Only things that can be applied to both.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on December 07, 2021, 03:28:28 AM
Surprised this one doesn't seem to have been brought up yet: Class kits (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMisc.aspx?Category=Kit) are an utter clusterfuck, defeating their entire point.  You've got issues like Bloodrager's Kit (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bloodrager%27s%20kit) which is just a Barbarian's Kit (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Barbarian%E2%80%99s%20kit) but without rope, the heaviest inclusion by far, yet somehow weighs a pound more while costing the same (and came after Barbarian's Kit!). Ranger's Kit (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ranger%27s%20kit) is one of the less awful, and it costs 4 silver extra for no real reason.

The original/oldest such kit, Pathfinder's Kit, is to my knowledge far and away the best kit as it's both calculated correctly (you save 1 silver and 5 copper over buying its contents individually and an exact match for the weight, and that's not counting the cost or weight of the "50 feet of thread" because it doesn't seem to be an item of its own), the only stuff you might remotely not want are light, and cheap.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on January 22, 2022, 12:07:34 AM
The Possessed bloodline at first seems to have yet another impractical but functional ability that depends on a melee touch attack on a squishy caster but has a moderately potent condition attached, except its only one round for some reason.
Quote
Aggressive Possession (Sp): At 1st level, you can make a melee touch attack as a standard action. The target must succeed at a Will save or be confused for 1 round. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
It's actually worse than that first appearance though. Take a look at the confused condition.
Quote
Any confused creature who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes.

So confusing a melee opponent (most things that will fail a will save), unless you blow further resources this ability just results in you taking a monster's attack to the face. Always trade for Blood Havoc/Familiar if you take this, but the whole bloodline is kinda meh (reroll perception check!... but you take -2 penalty to everything for a minute).
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on January 22, 2022, 02:37:44 AM
a Beast-Bonded Witch 10 / Bloatmage 10 could get 3 possessions via Absorb Bloodline (if the GM allows possessed to be a bloodline option)?

via Twin Soul: 1 from the familiar, 1 from the previous body possessed after transferring out of your familiar (after you "die"), and a new possessed body via Possessed capstone

could the witch use Bilocation (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bilocation) (Space patron) and/or Threefold Form (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bilocation) to possess additional bodies?
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Nanashi on January 22, 2022, 02:36:20 PM
You could invest to make it not totally useless (thought I included "without investment" in there, but guess I forgot to put it there). Problem is everything you could do with it can be done to a bunch of other bloodlines with badtouch effects, and most would come out better than a one round confuse.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on June 03, 2022, 01:59:25 AM
does the Planar Negotiator actually do anything RAW? Planar Ally spells call outsiders, not summon them

Quote
You are skilled at convincing outsiders that you require their aid. Whenever you cast lesser planar ally, planar ally, or greater planar ally, you receive a 10% discount on the monetary cost required by the summoned outsiders. This bonus has no effect on services the outsiders may demand in order to strike a bargain.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on June 03, 2022, 10:27:40 AM
By RAW, no. Planar Negotiator (https://www.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?Type=Race) does not. (Fun fact: There are two traits titled Planar Negotiator so a direct link only points to the wrong one.) But the RAI is extremely clear, so any sane GM will rule that it applies to called creatures. And there is precedent for this being a fuck-up, as the spell Planar Inquiry (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Planar%20Inquiry) uses the same "summoned" language for a called creature. Paizo really needs better proofreading.

That's actually a pretty potent trait.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: zook1shoe on June 05, 2022, 02:00:02 AM
yeah i just saw that at the end of the spell on Fun Finds
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on March 19, 2023, 10:44:12 AM
New feat courtesy of Planar Adventures!
Quote
PEACE OF MIND (CONDUIT)
Source Planar Adventures pg. 31
The blissful peace of Nirvana is never more than a thought away from your mind.

Prerequisites: Knowledge (planes) 3 ranks.

Benefit: As an immediate action when you fail a saving throw against an emotion, fear, or pain effect, you can ignore the effect and instead become dazed for an amount of time equal to twice the duration of the original effect. Any nonlethal damage you would have taken from the original effect is reduced to its minimum value (as though a 1 had been rolled on all dice). You cannot activate this ability if you are currently dazed.

You can use this feat’s benefit once per day, plus an additional time per day for every 5 ranks you have in Knowledge (planes).

I think the only good use of this is against spells with instantaneous durations or if you somehow develop daze immunity. There might be a few cases where the regular condition is worse than daze (confusion?), but even then the doubled duration makes it a dubious proposition. For the most part this feat's effect is much worse than what that spell or effect was going to do to you.
I actually found a legitimately compelling use for this deranged feat. If you have a Padma Blossom (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Padma%20Blossom) (may want to hold it with a locked gauntlet (https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentArmorDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Locked%20gauntlet) and weapon cord (https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Weapon%20cord), to be safe), you are not affected by the dazed condition, so this can actually be useful for psychic spellcasters who are totally screwed when under any emotion effect.

And I have a lovely new feat to share:
Quote
RETRIBUTIVE KICK (WEAPON MASTERY)
Source Weapon Master's Handbook pg. 22
You can use your weapon attacks to set up a foe for an unarmed strike.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5, weapon training class feature with a melee weapon.

Benefit:  When you make a full attack with an appropriate melee weapon and your first attack misses or is blocked, deflected, parried, or otherwise caused to not hit the target, you can immediately make an unarmed attack against the same target with the same attack bonus. You then cannot make any more attacks as part of that full attack.
Yep! If you are full attacking and your first attack (and ONLY your first attack) fails to hit, you can trade all your subsequent attacks for a single unarmed attack with the same attack bonus. Exceptionally useless when you are hasted, which at higher levels is pretty much always because either a spellcaster will Haste (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Haste) you or you have Boots of Speed (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Boots%20of%20Speed). The only vaguely useful thing I can think of here is that it lets you retain the benefits of True Strike (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=True%20Strike) for a second attempt at an attack. Definitely the result of a zealous editor nerfing it into the ground. Likely the original version was written to let you have your full attack and let you perform a retributive kick with any attack that missed (which would make this legitimately useful for monks, at least).

Incidentally, you can use a Martial Focus (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Martial%20Focus) feat to qualify for this without a weapon training class feature, if for some reason you want to.
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on June 09, 2023, 11:34:03 AM
Surprised this one doesn't seem to have been brought up yet: Class kits (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMisc.aspx?Category=Kit) are an utter clusterfuck, defeating their entire point.  You've got issues like Bloodrager's Kit (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bloodrager%27s%20kit) which is just a Barbarian's Kit (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Barbarian%E2%80%99s%20kit) but without rope, the heaviest inclusion by far, yet somehow weighs a pound more while costing the same (and came after Barbarian's Kit!). Ranger's Kit (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ranger%27s%20kit) is one of the less awful, and it costs 4 silver extra for no real reason.

The original/oldest such kit, Pathfinder's Kit, is to my knowledge far and away the best kit as it's both calculated correctly (you save 1 silver and 5 copper over buying its contents individually and an exact match for the weight, and that's not counting the cost or weight of the "50 feet of thread" because it doesn't seem to be an item of its own), the only stuff you might remotely not want are light, and cheap.
Yeah, paizo's poor proofreading of stat blocks and the like is a pretty persistent problem. I know there are bestiary entries too where the numbers don't add up, and the APG staves are officially half-price for no reason, and this has never been corrected either (despite being pointed out to them), because whoever designed those staves mistook the construction cost for the total cost. Technically that means APG staves are just very good value. They're PFS legal too.

But this all reminds me of another fun and highly recurring mistake from paizo not understanding their own rules, which is the Potion of Shield, which appears in many Adventure Paths, and is even available through the Well-Provisioned Adventurer (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Well-Provisioned%20Adventurer) equipment trait (Corporeal Warrior Package).
Title: Re: Look at this thing I found in Pathfinder! The bad feats/spells/etc thread
Post by: Power on October 15, 2023, 09:45:06 AM
Another post, another atrociously bad feat. Feast your eyes on Crushing Blow!
Quote
CRUSHING BLOW (COMBAT)
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 94
Your focus allows you to smash your enemy’s defenses.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist.

Benefit: You can make a Stunning Fist attempt as a full-round action. If successful, instead of stunning your target, you reduce the target’s AC by an amount equal to your Wisdom modifier for 1 minute. This penalty does not stack with other penalties applied due to Crushing Blow.

Combat Trick: When using this feat, you can spend either 2 or 4 stamina points. If you do, the Crushing Blow attack reduces the target’s AC by an additional 1 for every 2 stamina points you spent.
Instead of applying Stunning Fist (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stunning%20Fist) to an unarmed attack (or any attack with a Monk weapon if you have Cornugon Stun (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cornugon%20Stun)), you can use a full round action and expend a stunning fist attempt and if your enemy fails the will save collect an AC penalty to your target instead of, you know, stunning him for a round, which makes him drop everything he's holding, take a -2 penalty to AC, and also lose dex to AC (and it also makes it possible for someone with 5d6 sneak attack damage to coup-de-grace him with Dastardly Finish (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dastardly%20Finish)). The only vaguely useful thing about this is that it works on stun-immune enemies, since typically 1 round of stun is worth more than 1 minute of wis penalty to AC.

Yeah, regular Stunning Fist is way better than this.