Author Topic: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z  (Read 80078 times)

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #200 on: September 23, 2018, 09:59:32 PM »
Funny (since getting a Space Suit gets around it) but until level 20, an Einst Queen is pretty screwed in space despite being a space monstrosity. The Adaptive Queen can get into a drone but if the Infiltrator or Nurturing stand on one, they still asphyxiate. xD
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 10:01:45 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #201 on: September 23, 2018, 10:02:26 PM »
Quote
Only weapons that are referenced as "built-in" count as so. Super robots have 2 by default and can pick more with Extra, non-generic Real's base weapons are Built-In too.

Darn. That makes Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire (7th) a lot less valuable -_-'
Oh well.

If Multiclassing Super Pilot with Ship Captain, if my Captain has Tier 2 Arsenal available, and Super has like Tier 2 Arsenal available, do they add up to having access to Tier 4 Arsenal? Or if you're ahead in one class with Arsenal, then is the lower class' arsenal class feature completely wasted?

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #202 on: September 23, 2018, 10:07:22 PM »
Maybe pilot classes should combine to advance the slower Arsenal access? No multiclassing for early tier 7, but not dropping four levels behind either.

i.e. use the better native arsenal access or access = to your slower class's with your HD as level.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #203 on: September 23, 2018, 10:10:52 PM »
Do natural weapons get channeled through Mechas? Are those considered Built-in if so?


Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire maneuver is definitely useless. The amount of built-in weapons a mecha has is incredibly low, and the mechas that have more than 2 or 3 are really high level and by then you can already use that option everyone has to attack with 1+1/3 level weapons as a fullattack from mecha basics to do the same thing a maneuver you get 3/4 of the way to 20th level. The only thing this maneuver does is basically grant multiattack for 1 turn as a 7th level maneuver.  :(
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 10:21:08 PM by ketaro »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #204 on: September 23, 2018, 10:25:20 PM »
Quote
Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire maneuver is definitely useless. The amount of built-in weapons a mecha has is incredibly low, and the mechas that have more than 2 or 3 are really high level and by then you can already use that option everyone has to attack with 1+1/3 level weapons as a fullattack from mecha basics to do the same thing a maneuver you get 3/4 of the way to 20th level. The only thing this maneuver does is basically grant multiattack for 1 turn as a 7th level maneuver.  :(

Would just like to add that this is the school Supers can't get without Real multiclassing, so you can't even take advantage of the upgrades to add inbuilt weapons and get the maneuver.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #205 on: September 23, 2018, 10:29:50 PM »
Thank you^

What really constitutes "self buff class abilities for fighting" in regards to what a mecha benefits from its pilot?
Like, Fast Healing apparently works in the single given example. What else? Toughness? Improved Toughness? Diehard? Spell Resistance? Spell Immunity? Rage?
Or what doesn't if that's a shorter list.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #206 on: September 23, 2018, 10:37:45 PM »
From times I've asked before: all class features that provide you with some sort of ability or immunity do, and it's mostly been straight increases to AC or DR that would run into stacking conflicts that don't. Classes that grant a fly speed also transfer that to the mecha. Diehard-esque class features do, so I guess that Diehard itself would?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #207 on: September 23, 2018, 10:44:43 PM »
Funny (since getting a Space Suit gets around it) but until level 20, an Einst Queen is pretty screwed in space despite being a space monstrosity. The Adaptive Queen can get into a drone but if the Infiltrator or Nurturing stand on one, they still asphyxiate. xD
...Can't believe I forgot that all this time. Fixed, thanks.

Quote
Only weapons that are referenced as "built-in" count as so. Super robots have 2 by default and can pick more with Extra, non-generic Real's base weapons are Built-In too.

Darn. That makes Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire (7th) a lot less valuable -_-'
Oh well.

If Multiclassing Super Pilot with Ship Captain, if my Captain has Tier 2 Arsenal available, and Super has like Tier 2 Arsenal available, do they add up to having access to Tier 4 Arsenal? Or if you're ahead in one class with Arsenal, then is the lower class' arsenal class feature completely wasted?
As said in the multiclassing rules, Arsenal access equivalent is Real level+Super level+Captain level-3 (minimum Real level). A lv7 super (minimum for tier II arsenal) and lv 7 ship captain (minimum for tier II arsenal) would have 7+7-3=11 so they would access to Arsenal III like a lv11 real. A couple more real or captain levels and you would get tier IV.

Maybe pilot classes should combine to advance the slower Arsenal access? No multiclassing for early tier 7, but not dropping four levels behind either.

i.e. use the better native arsenal access or access = to your slower class's with your HD as level.
I believe that's kinda how it already works, you'll never fall behind and a super/captain multiclass would basically progress as normal.

Do natural weapons get channeled through Mechas? Are those considered Built-in if so?
They get channeled but wouldn't count as built-in.

Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire maneuver is definitely useless. The amount of built-in weapons a mecha has is incredibly low, and the mechas that have more than 2 or 3 are really high level and by then you can already use that option everyone has to attack with 1+1/3 level weapons as a fullattack from mecha basics to do the same thing a maneuver you get 3/4 of the way to 20th level. The only thing this maneuver does is basically grant multiattack for 1 turn as a 7th level maneuver.  :(
There's a couple other key benefits:
-Maneuver can add precision damage, 1+1/3 level fullattack can't.
-Maneuver can fire multiple built-in Heavy weapons, 1+1/3 level fullattack can't since it's a fullattack and Heavy weapons specificially limit you to one Heavy weapon and nothing else in a full attack, which the 1+1/3 level is. But Mixed Fire isn't a full attack, so can get around the Heavy restriction.

Quote
Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire maneuver is definitely useless. The amount of built-in weapons a mecha has is incredibly low, and the mechas that have more than 2 or 3 are really high level and by then you can already use that option everyone has to attack with 1+1/3 level weapons as a fullattack from mecha basics to do the same thing a maneuver you get 3/4 of the way to 20th level. The only thing this maneuver does is basically grant multiattack for 1 turn as a 7th level maneuver.  :(

Would just like to add that this is the school Supers can't get without Real multiclassing, so you can't even take advantage of the upgrades to add inbuilt weapons and get the maneuver.
You could use Martial Pilot to grab Ace Pilot as a Super Pilot, or be a multi-class super/real.

Thank you^

What really constitutes "self buff class abilities for fighting" in regards to what a mecha benefits from its pilot?
Like, Fast Healing apparently works in the single given example. What else? Toughness? Improved Toughness? Diehard? Spell Resistance? Spell Immunity? Rage?
Or what doesn't if that's a shorter list.
No to (improved) toughness since it's mechas have their separate HP, yes to everything else.


Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #208 on: September 23, 2018, 10:55:33 PM »
Quote
-Maneuver can fire multiple built-in Heavy weapons, 1+1/3 level fullattack can't since it's a fullattack and Heavy weapons specificially limit you to one Heavy weapon and nothing else in a full attack, which the 1+1/3 level is. But Mixed Fire isn't a full attack, so can get around the Heavy restriction.

I didn't know that was allowed, haha. Well, alright then.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #209 on: September 23, 2018, 11:50:19 PM »
Though on the stacking question...

Mecha Natural AC is formatted as an untyped bonus. If a pilot has a class feature supplying natural AC, does that give the mecha base nat AC which gets further boosted?

Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #210 on: September 24, 2018, 12:24:28 AM »
Mecha weapons count as doing [Force] damage except where DR comes up, but do they count as Magical for bypassing DR/Magic?

Infiltrator Einst Queen can grant a maneuver or Stance to a Drone it spawns. Einst ACF for Ship Captain lets their drone merge with their Battleship. With myself also being Integrated with the Battleship, could a Stance known by the Drone and a Stance known by myself be active simultaneously and be benefiting both/all of us?

Also, Drones auto die if critted, I read that right, right? Would a Drone that was merged with a Battleship that got critted also die and thus no longer be merged with the ship? If so, how would that interact with how crits usually work with damage going through to the pilot if the crit is kind of being taken by the Drone in that instance? Or would it be possible to choose whether the fused Drone takes the crit or you do so as to save the Drone and keep it fused?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 06:00:42 AM by ketaro »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #211 on: September 24, 2018, 09:32:21 PM »
I'll do Arcane and Divine pilots next.

Arcane Pilot and Divine Pilot

Super vs Real dichotomy, fair enough.

Divine Pilot needs Sense Motive on the skills list.

I'm not going to go through the spells lists.  I barely ever play casters (remember how I never used spells when playing Jeremy 2.0 in the Nintendo game?) and since they both get bonus spells anything missing can be grabbed.  Divine Pilot gets a hell of a lot more extra spells though.

I feel like if the Arcane Pilot is going to (potentially) have a lot of familiars in combat pods then they might want to have a pass on familiar death XP penalties.

I think all of the custom spells are okay.


Well that was quicker than expected.  I'll just go down the list alphabetically now, otherwise I'll probably lose track of what I've done.


Einst Queen

Yay, a crazy complicated one.....

I feel like you care about this one more because it has pretty formatting.  And the skills are in alphabetical order!

I see that Swim isn't on the skill list.  It isn't needed, but Queen's get all the other movement skills so I noticed it not being there (and Super Pilot's get Swim so I know you aren't against swim in principle).  If you don't add it that's fine, I don't know if Queen's actually swim.

Okay, drones get a bioframe and an instinct.  No HD, that's interesting.

I'm getting a pretty well reviewed vibe out of this one.  Not that I'm complaining.

The Adaptive Queen's mutation Hunger should probably have the word permanent removed.  The phrasing isn't bad, it just isn't actually "permanent" in my opinion.  I can see an argument for leaving it in (permanent until removed).  Do whatever, I won't complain.

The Aquatic mutation grants Drones the ability to breathe underwater.  Do Drones breathe?

In Spore Spreader - trough should be through.  This one popped out at me because that was the first misspelling in this post.


How does an Einst Queen/Ship Captain's Officers/Crew work?  Also, togheter should be together in that multiclass spoiler.


Your multiclass math feels off.

"For determining Pilot level for other abilities, count full class level  plus half the other levels for purposes of that class. So for example an Einst Queen 8/Ship Captain 4 would count as having PL 10 for other Einst Queen ability purposes and PL 6 for other Ship Captain ability purposes."

Should it be PL 8 for other Ship Captain ability purposes?


I take it Queen's Will is the only way to have a "party friendly" Queen?  Oh look, Guardian instinct.  I missed that on first read.

Do Drones have to spend energy to fly like normal mecha?  (I'm assuming yes.)

Can a Queen absorb a drone or would it just eat the drone normally?  I'm thinking of mecha vs. non-mecha scale switching (as a player where you won't have a billion drones).


Bioweapon minimum damage as small.  Fair enough.  I'm not an arsenal expert so I can't tell if the bioweapons are good, but given the great formatting I'll assume they've been looked at.   :p

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #212 on: September 24, 2018, 10:47:27 PM »
Though on the stacking question...

Mecha Natural AC is formatted as an untyped bonus. If a pilot has a class feature supplying natural AC, does that give the mecha base nat AC which gets further boosted?
Eeerrr, it's called Nat(ural) Armor because it is literally Natural Armor, says so in the intro and everything. If that formatting is not good enough, please suggest a better wording.

Mecha weapons count as doing [Force] damage except where DR comes up, but do they count as Magical for bypassing DR/Magic?
No unless you have Arcane Arsenal or something else to make them magic.

Infiltrator Einst Queen can grant a maneuver or Stance to a Drone it spawns. Einst ACF for Ship Captain lets their drone merge with their Battleship. With myself also being Integrated with the Battleship, could a Stance known by the Drone and a Stance known by myself be active simultaneously and be benefiting both/all of us?

Also, Drones auto die if critted, I read that right, right? Would a Drone that was merged with a Battleship that got critted also die and thus no longer be merged with the ship? If so, how would that interact with how crits usually work with damage going through to the pilot if the crit is kind of being taken by the Drone in that instance? Or would it be possible to choose whether the fused Drone takes the crit or you do so as to save the Drone and keep it fused?
I'll answer all of that by clarifying that besides instinct/Queen's Will, the drone battleship counts as a battleship and not as a drone.

I'll do Arcane and Divine pilots next.

Arcane Pilot and Divine Pilot

Super vs Real dichotomy, fair enough.

Divine Pilot needs Sense Motive on the skills list.
Done.

I'm not going to go through the spells lists.  I barely ever play casters (remember how I never used spells when playing Jeremy 2.0 in the Nintendo game?) and since they both get bonus spells anything missing can be grabbed.  Divine Pilot gets a hell of a lot more extra spells though.
True, but divine spells usually aren't as versatile, so the arcane pilot should be able to do as much with less picks.

I feel like if the Arcane Pilot is going to (potentially) have a lot of familiars in combat pods then they might want to have a pass on familiar death XP penalties.
Good point, added clause that they'll only take penalties if all the familiars die and the penalty will be the same as if a single one had died, plus 24 hour free ritual to bring dead ones back to life as long as one remains.

I think all of the custom spells are okay.
Yay!

Well that was quicker than expected.  I'll just go down the list alphabetically now, otherwise I'll probably lose track of what I've done.


Einst Queen

Yay, a crazy complicated one.....

I feel like you care about this one more because it has pretty formatting.  And the skills are in alphabetical order!
Trivia time, although the Einst Queen draws inspiration from many space bugs sources, the main one was the webcomic Knight Run (class pic source too) which I really, really liked despite averagish art, so yeah this one holds a special place in my heart and it goes to show your review skills that you noticed it.

I see that Swim isn't on the skill list.  It isn't needed, but Queen's get all the other movement skills so I noticed it not being there (and Super Pilot's get Swim so I know you aren't against swim in principle).  If you don't add it that's fine, I don't know if Queen's actually swim.
Recently saw Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet so swim now class skill.

Okay, drones get a bioframe and an instinct.  No HD, that's interesting.
Saves quite a bit of trouble since HD come with a lot of strings attached.

I'm getting a pretty well reviewed vibe out of this one.  Not that I'm complaining.

The Adaptive Queen's mutation Hunger should probably have the word permanent removed.  The phrasing isn't bad, it just isn't actually "permanent" in my opinion.  I can see an argument for leaving it in (permanent until removed).  Do whatever, I won't complain.
You're right, removed.

The Aquatic mutation grants Drones the ability to breathe underwater.  Do Drones breathe?
Good catch, they don't so removed that bit.

In Spore Spreader - trough should be through.  This one popped out at me because that was the first misspelling in this post.
Fixed.

How does an Einst Queen/Ship Captain's Officers/Crew work?  Also, togheter should be together in that multiclass spoiler.
Added "crewed by a mix of lesser einst, enslaved/delusioned/fanatic humanoids and hybrids."

Your multiclass math feels off.

"For determining Pilot level for other abilities, count full class level  plus half the other levels for purposes of that class. So for example an Einst Queen 8/Ship Captain 4 would count as having PL 10 for other Einst Queen ability purposes and PL 6 for other Ship Captain ability purposes."

Should it be PL 8 for other Ship Captain ability purposes?
Ups, yes. Fixed too. :blush

I take it Queen's Will is the only way to have a "party friendly" Queen?  Oh look, Guardian instinct.  I missed that on first read.
You can thank Raineh Daze for that one if I remember correctly. :p

Do Drones have to spend energy to fly like normal mecha?  (I'm assuming yes.)
Yes, unless otherwise noticed they work like mechas.

Can a Queen absorb a drone or would it just eat the drone normally?  I'm thinking of mecha vs. non-mecha scale switching (as a player where you won't have a billion drones).
Need to nom the drone.

Bioweapon minimum damage as small.  Fair enough.  I'm not an arsenal expert so I can't tell if the bioweapons are good, but given the great formatting I'll assume they've been looked at.   :p
Does this means the bio-weapons by themselves look good, nothing that stands as too strong/weak compared to the other bio-weapons? :P

Thanks once more for your help!

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #213 on: September 24, 2018, 10:52:59 PM »
Quote
Eeerrr, it's called Nat(ural) Armor because it is literally Natural Armor, says so in the intro and everything. If that formatting is not good enough, please suggest a better wording.

Basically:
I have a mecha, which has a certain nat AC.
I have a monster class, which grants nat AC via class features. This value is higher.
Which value do I use for the mecha?

Subquestion is, what if said class then has a different feature that enhances its AC. Does this bonus apply to mecha AC even if the (monster class) AC otherwise wouldn't?

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #214 on: September 25, 2018, 12:07:28 AM »
On the bio weapons, I think that they're okay internally but I'll admit to just skimming at the end.

I'll give them another look through and actually look up the weapon special abilities before moving to the next class.

Einst Queen multiclassing needs to be fixed for Real and Super pilots too.

I like the Einst Queen too. So far I'd play either a Ship Captain or a Ship Captain/Einst Queen.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #215 on: September 25, 2018, 12:46:17 AM »
I'm glancing through other things on my phone.

Musk Cat favored class is in the feat spoiler.


Classes without a race having it as a favored class (in case you aren't keeping track):

Ideal Idol
Mecha Mook (doesn't really count)
Peace Princess
Prodigy Pilot
Psycho Pilot
Ship Captain 
Support Staff

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #216 on: September 25, 2018, 12:57:00 AM »
How would a Super Pilot /Ship Captain /Einst Queen work?

Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #217 on: September 25, 2018, 01:35:36 AM »
Quote
No unless you have Arcane Arsenal or something else to make them magic.

Huh, so creatures immune to non-magical attacks are immune to being damaged by mechas? Thats spooky. It's a rare feature, but interesting to know.

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #218 on: September 25, 2018, 03:52:49 AM »
Quote
Eeerrr, it's called Nat(ural) Armor because it is literally Natural Armor, says so in the intro and everything. If that formatting is not good enough, please suggest a better wording.

Basically:
I have a mecha, which has a certain nat AC.
I have a monster class, which grants nat AC via class features. This value is higher.
Which value do I use for the mecha?

Subquestion is, what if said class then has a different feature that enhances its AC. Does this bonus apply to mecha AC even if the (monster class) AC otherwise wouldn't?
Apply the best natural armor between pilot and mecha, if the pilot has an ability that improves natural armor it improves the pilot's own and if it ends best than the mecha's own then use the pilot'e enhanced, otherwise mecha's.

On the bio weapons, I think that they're okay internally but I'll admit to just skimming at the end.

I'll give them another look through and actually look up the weapon special abilities before moving to the next class.

Einst Queen multiclassing needs to be fixed for Real and Super pilots too.

I like the Einst Queen too. So far I'd play either a Ship Captain or a Ship Captain/Einst Queen.

Fixed super/real multiclass, and thanks for the extra compliment! :D

I'm glancing through other things on my phone.

Musk Cat favored class is in the feat spoiler.
Fixed too.

Classes without a race having it as a favored class (in case you aren't keeping track):

Ideal Idol
Mecha Mook (doesn't really count)
Peace Princess
Prodigy Pilot
Psycho Pilot
Ship Captain 
Support Staff
Thanks, I had a rough idea while drafting the new races, but an actually written list is better (plus confirmation that no race should be the Mecha Mook race).

How would a Super Pilot /Ship Captain /Einst Queen work?
You get buffed drones like a super/einst and then can fuse a buffed drone to your battleship (although only HP, DR, saves,  natural armor, Dodge and weapons would count for the buffed drone battleship). Super levels would also directly buff the battleship as a super/captain so your drone battleship can also transform and gets upgrade points.

Quote
No unless you have Arcane Arsenal or something else to make them magic.

Huh, so creatures immune to non-magical attacks are immune to being damaged by mechas? Thats spooky. It's a rare feature, but interesting to know.

Intended, wanted a reason to keep somebody able to use magic around.

Offline Sweetiebot

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #219 on: September 25, 2018, 05:52:39 AM »
In the Einst Queen fluff, apparently they are sometimes raised in captivity or brainwashed with drugs.


Hence, the current situation with Einst Captains raises an interesting possibility of the "tame" Einst Captain kidnapping and enslaving randos and the Government is like

"This is fine."