Author Topic: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?  (Read 17546 times)

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2011, 09:14:41 AM »
And making those last, high BAB granted attacks mean more.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2011, 03:58:42 AM »
Not sure where do you get the +13 for the barbarian.
I was high on crack for the most part last night. The numbers are much lower than that damn SorO was trying to flop things in reverse but the point still stands.

What I don't care about and you seem to is the number of attacks granted by BAB is allowing the Barbarian to sometimes deal more. What I really don't fracking care about is how much you tweak the Barbarian's damage to prove some bullshit point I'm not even talking about. My point is the tweak favors none dedicated class's chance to hit more than the so called dedicated.

Further the repercussions of allowing those none dedicated classes to damn near always hit you are opening a can of worms leading to other classes replacing the need for a dedicated meleer in the first place. This has squat diddle dick with the Barb having FOUR attacks per round.

Take this scenario since both are level 20.
Balor lands the Surprise round and summons another Balor.
Initiative is called.
Rogue wins (higher dex), he shoots one in the face twice and kills it.
Barbarian is second (PCs have better init checks) and charges the other Balor dealing 9,999 damage or wtf ever.
After combat the Rogue heals the Barbarian for being dumb enough to charge the huge creature on fire.
After that the Rogue searches the room for traps.
After that the Rogue disables the Implosion Trap on the vault door.
Barbarian is sit of waiting and hulk smashes the door the rogue could have easily picked, bypassed, or chipped his way though anyway.

Who was more useful in combat? Neither one. Sure you can fine comb it, the Rogue didn't get hurt, the Rogue used ranged, the Barbarian dealt more, the Rogue was more useful, what if breaking the vault opened melted the contents within as a safeguard. Those are tangents and you've been doing enough of those already. They both equally preformed the job of killing the opponent. Exact damage has no god damn bearing as long as they died.

What matters is did the Rogue miss or not. Same Scenario, Rogue's hit chance increases, by any means (this tweak or even not).
Barlor summons Balor, Rogue shoots them both dead, then the Rogue goes on to be even more useful. Even if there were Balors lef to fight the bonuses to the Barbarian were meaningless, the Barlor's AC was only 30 and he hit anyway under the old system and the new. Not a thing changed for him. But it did for the Rogue.

Also, at whom ever. HP is your last line of defense, ghosting someone while hidden could mean no one even attacks back to begin with. Then miss chances, saves, moar miss chances, then maybe HP are considered. Also HD wise, the Barb only has +60HP or not enough to survive a round of attacks anyway. Con bonus matters and Rage curtainly gives that, but again HP vs concealment/intelligence is no contest.

Now I am REALLY pissed the fuck off with Assassin's Creed and spent the last hour tossing the remote to the floor and riddling this post with thousands of misspelled words. I'm going to go kill some fucktards at Ubisoft and take a nap until I feel better.



Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2011, 04:09:03 AM »
I don't fucking care that dedicated classes get a lesser benefit then the non-dedicated classes. They both do and lower tiers get more then high tiers and that's what important.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2011, 05:09:22 AM »

What I don't care about and you seem to is the number of attacks granted by BAB is allowing the Barbarian to sometimes deal more. What I really don't fracking care about is how much you tweak the Barbarian's damage to prove some bullshit point I'm not even talking about. My point is the tweak favors none dedicated class's chance to hit more than the so called dedicated.


Bullshit numbers aside.
Dedicated melee classes (+16 BAB) get +5 on 3rd iterative and +10 on 4th iterative.
Not so dedicated melee classes (11-15 BAB) get +5 on 3rd iterative.
Not at all dedicated melee classes get absolutely nothing.

Offline SneeR

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2011, 05:14:52 AM »
What I don't care about and you seem to is the number of attacks granted by BAB is allowing the Barbarian to sometimes deal more. What I really don't fracking care about is how much you tweak the Barbarian's damage to prove some bullshit point I'm not even talking about. My point is the tweak favors none dedicated class's chance to hit more than the so called dedicated.
Bullshit numbers aside.
Dedicated melee classes (+16 BAB) get +5 on 3rd iterative and +10 on 4th iterative.
Not so dedicated melee classes (11-15 BAB) get +5 on 3rd iterative.
Not at all dedicated melee classes get absolutely nothing.

Oh, nice way of looking at it! that sums up gains quite nicely!
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2011, 08:10:03 PM »
Bullshit numbers aside.
Dedicated melee classes (+16 BAB) get +5 on 3rd iterative and +10 on 4th iterative.
Not so dedicated melee classes (11-15 BAB) get +5 on 3rd iterative.
Not at all dedicated melee classes get absolutely nothing.
You know that is a valid point, its just I thought of that before I posted and even included a preemptive rebuttal shown in the countless comments that a huge chunk of the Barbarian's melee bonus is redundant. And it's not just him, Fighter's (Greater) Weapon Focus & Melee Weapon Mastery server as a six feat investment for nothing more than +6 to damage. 32 Str, full BAB, +5 weapon. You should have all of those, it is a +36 bonus, you're three points off from hitting with a 2 with everyone attack, Pelor forbid you have a racial bonus to Strength. With a dedicated class, such as Fighter gains +4 to hit form his feats, or the Barbarian with his +4 from Mighty Rage, are already showing unneeded values.

The 2/3 classes? Well more often than not they were given more damage. Rogue's Sneak Attack, Ninja's Sudden Strike, Scout's Skirmish, Monk's Unarmed Damage and crazy spell boosts, even the almighty CoDzilla count here using their spells to gain an edge, except, the Druid already uses this system though Natural Attacks.  The original intent of balance being more damage but hit less often was wiped. They gain the most from the boost in functionality, IE what matters.

It's like bragging you own 400 light bulbs to a guy with 12, and then charity comes around and gives you 50 and him 2. Oh look, you have 450 light bulbs, brag some more about how many you got. You only use 15 of them, the rest sit on a shelf in your closet, and the other guy is still one bulb short so his storage space doesn't light up but you're still bragging about owning 450 light bulbs and how you got 50 more yesterday. You know, I think some people on the street in New York would have better analogy here. Nah, probably not...

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2011, 01:37:25 AM »
You know that is a valid point, its just I thought of that before I posted and even included a preemptive rebuttal shown in the countless comments that a huge chunk of the Barbarian's melee bonus is redundant. And it's not just him, Fighter's (Greater) Weapon Focus & Melee Weapon Mastery server as a six feat investment for nothing more than +6 to damage. 32 Str, full BAB, +5 weapon. You should have all of those, it is a +36 bonus, you're three points off from hitting with a 2 with everyone attack, Pelor forbid you have a racial bonus to Strength. With a dedicated class, such as Fighter gains +4 to hit form his feats, or the Barbarian with his +4 from Mighty Rage, are already showing unneeded values.

Most full BAB classes that are intent on doing damage will have Power Attack, which means that all that 'unneeded' accuracy can easily translate to bonus damage. Those that don't use Power Attack are usually control builds (Trip etc.) where hitting more often would probably not help as much as let's say a bonus to related checks.


The 2/3 classes? Well more often than not they were given more damage. Rogue's Sneak Attack, Ninja's Sudden Strike, Scout's Skirmish, Monk's Unarmed Damage and crazy spell boosts, even the almighty CoDzilla count here using their spells to gain an edge, except, the Druid already uses this system though Natural Attacks.  The original intent of balance being more damage but hit less often was wiped. They gain the most from the boost in functionality, IE what matters.
First of all, I think we should leave the casters out of it. They completely blow a non-caster out of the water in regards to hit bonuses and damage (apart from chargers) while still providing superior utility. As for other(non-casting) 3/4 classes, they might be 'more damage less accuracy' on paper, but given the fact that power attack has much more optimization options than bonus damage sources, they usually end up as 'hit less, and do less damage' so I really don't see a problem with giving them a combat boost.

It's like bragging you own 400 light bulbs to a guy with 12, and then charity comes around and gives you 50 and him 2. Oh look, you have 450 light bulbs, brag some more about how many you got. You only use 15 of them, the rest sit on a shelf in your closet, and the other guy is still one bulb short so his storage space doesn't light up but you're still bragging about owning 450 light bulbs and how you got 50 more yesterday. You know, I think some people on the street in New York would have better analogy here. Nah, probably not...

Looks like you feel 3/4 BAB classes gain more from +5 to 3rd iterative than full BAB classes gain from +5/+10 on 3rd/4th. I don't. Given the fact that everybody is entitled to their own opinion, looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2011, 03:01:25 AM »
Given the fact that everybody is entitled to their own opinion, looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.
And that I can agree on.