Author Topic: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater  (Read 237046 times)

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #460 on: April 01, 2017, 06:38:54 PM »
maybe they didn't understand YOUR expectations, I haven't gone looking for them but yours is the first negative post about the game I've seen.
Nah.
Also the user ratings of the game have been holding strong at being lower than the professional "critics" which has led to the whole controversy that Nintendo paid everyone off.

Then of course their are the fans. Like Metacritic has been under fire every since it posted it's 97% because it didn't list BotW high enough to please the fans. Which is pretty inline with your response really, Zelda is perfect so it must be me right? :p

Offline brujon

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #461 on: April 01, 2017, 06:52:00 PM »
After you get Bombs/Magnesis/Stasis/Cryonis, finishing the three mandated shrines and getting the Paraglider, you're home free. Unlike previous Zelda games where areas were completely locked off because you don't have the Slingshot/Bow/Grappling Hook/Ball & Chain/Whatever, BoTW gives you every tool you need to beat the game in, literally, the tutorial area.
That's like saying Pokemon gives you every tool you need to complete the game before collecting all eight badges (which is entirely possible through at least three different glitches).

You are cut off from sections of the map. Either you can't swim/climb far enough (stamina-based limitations), or it's too hot/cold (equipment-based limitations), or the enemies deal like 8+ hearts in damage for one shot kills (heart-based limitations) which can by bypassed by player skill but then again can you to an 8 minute speed run of SMB3 and finish with 99 lives? No, yeah, near perfection for years of playing isn't a relevant discussion point.

Then there areas like Zora's Domain or that other one with a constant thunderstorm of auto-lightning death (boss-based limitations) and then finally the worst ones, random bullshit-limitations like rain/thunderstorm/night/bloodmoon penalties that are specifically designed to force you to stop what you're doing, detour to a safe area, painstakingly wait on a stupid fire, run all the way back, and finally resume your progress which is perhaps the most infuriating element of the game. Not even the fact that is seems the game is designed around 500 defense & 30 hearts with infinite food as the minimum prerequisite for running around on the map, but fact that I personally have to waste my time on tedious annoying crap every 20 minutes of playing. And it's the same mechanic for stamina-based limitations, go waste time playing herbalist to mix up some stamina boosts & replenishers for temporary access that'll get revoked until you waste time again.

Can you imagine if another game tried this?
* Halo 2: Stop and wait five minutes for shields edition.
* Link Between Worlds: Wait ten minutes each time you travel between the worlds edition.
* Super Mario Bros - Rename Version #247: Using pipes takes eight minutes edition.

It's a cheap shitty mechanic designed to inflate playtime. It seems it may be useful to quickly consume the time left on your +20 max heart food (a value of finding and completing eighty shrine puzzles) but you know what's a great idea? Not offering crap like that to begin with.

And btw, horses are pay-to-win. If you paid for the Amiibo you can just summon Epona for a horse with maximum stats and is perfectly tame, 100% chance of summoning on your first usage. Best of all even if she dies you can simply resurrect her or wait until she drops again from the very same Amiibo.

Nintendo's core flaw with this game is they have no understanding of their player base. Ignoring the main objective is fun because you're ignoring what the game wants you to do. Side quests are supposed to be rewarding and fun distractions. Heck speed running Metroid was awesome because you got upgrades sooner than you should. Railroading them into playing the game by actively punishing them for deviations while teasing "but you technically can have full access!" is worse than Turbine's game model with DDO.

Player knowledge continues to be the biggest limitation in all the cases you mentioned. After the three main shrines, if you want god-tier equipment, it's pretty easy and pain-free to go to the Hyrule Castle Armory + Lockup and grab end-game gear, including the Hylian Shield and Royal Guard Claymore, which you can then use to successfully one-hit-kill Moblins with Lizal Tri-Boomerangs via stealth. This is doable with NO combat, in a game where you can save-scum to your hearts content because you can save anywhere.

Of course, you need to KNOW that there's relatively easy-to-get-to god-tier equipment in those locations. Just like in Dark Souls 1 you could pretty easily get the Elite Knight set + Drake's Sword in like, 40 minutes of gameplay and kick ass until Anor Londo.

I provided various solutions to not being able to swim/climb far enough. There's Octo Balloons you can use to quite easily get to a vantage point where you can simply glide to where you want to go. Of course, certain areas of the game are MEANT to be extremely hard to reach unless you have specific equipment (Zora Tunic to swim up waterfalls/Lose less stamina while swimming), or found out alternative routes to get to.

It's, after all, an exploration game.

Seriously, what other game gives you the amount of freedom that BoTW grants you FROM THE GET GO? There's absolutely no game that gives you that amount of player agency in determining what you have to do and how you go about doing that.

Even the combat, you can sidestep a LOT of the pain by just using bombs to kill everything. Yes, it's going to take a while, but they're infinite and you don't have to deal with the bullshit of equipment breaking. The game rubs in your face that it's not the most efficient way of going about doing things, but it DOESN'T prevent you from doing that. You can even use Magnesis to swing a large boulder like a flail, and i've seen videos of people defeating silver-maned Lynels with that, and three hearts, with no stamina upgrades.

Is it going to be hard? Fuck yeah, it's going to be hard, but it's not impossible. This game *IS* hard. And the Lynels ARE hard. The game makes a point of telling you how fking strong they are. After all, unless you got god-tier equipment and 20+ hearts the silver-manes will one shot you anyway, it doesn't really matter what you use in that case. The game is gear-oriented, but it's also HEAVILY skill-based. In fact, i'd wager this new Zelda is even more skill-oriented than Dark Souls is. Yes, there are one shots, and yes, you will learn to move quickly, dodge, parry, and otherwise git gud if you're going to survive. The combat is brutal. But so were SNES games like Contra, where you died in one hit to everything, and people still cleared those games. AND this game does not require you to clear screens of foes before moving to the next screen. You don't even need to fight most of the time, or you can do it cleverly and with minimal risk to yourself.

And i disagree, fully, with you in that the game requires you to have 30+ hearts and an inventory full of food with 500 defense to explore the map. You can run away. You DON'T need to kill everything.

In fact, the Blood Moon event, with the respawning of the enemies, just rubs that in your face. You're NOT going to clean the world up before fighting Ganon. The only way you can end the malice in the world is by defeating the BBEG. But, go ahead and kill things if it makes you happy. But it's not doing the world any good. I don't think you need years and years of practice just to get the skill required to sidestep the limitations put by the game. You can sneak, you can fly out of reach, you can freeze + leaf enemies away... There are several ways to sidestep combat entirely in this game. See the Eventide Island portion of my point above.

The Hot/Cold stuff... It's pretty easy to cook food in this game, and the effects last a long time. It's not hard to craft a potion to resist cold/fire and have it last 15 minutes. You just need to gather 5 of the ingredient that grants the resistance and cook that. It's not even hard. And there's even a chance you'll have a critical in the cooking and get a boosted effect. So you just do some pre-planning before your trip and go and do it. It's even realistic. You're not going to go to a cold-ass place before packing in your winter clothes. You're not going to the beach in heavy plate armor, you're going in shorts, or, at least, you're bringing in plenty of cold coconut water or what have you.


In summary... BoTW is pretty fucking brutal. It's hard. You'll feel like you don't have what it takes to get from A to B without going through C or D. But then you'll realize, you could've. You could've gone from A to B and the only thing is, you didn't know enough about the game to realize that, so you went through a slightly longer route. Then you play again, and you do things differently. Do it better. Learn through doing.

This is what BoTW is about, and why it is such a great game, and why Open World games need to learn with it. It really makes you think about your choices, and it really makes you try stuff out in order to learn. The immersion is staggering... Even after you get god-tier equipment, there's still stuff that can kill you. Even after you get Mipha's Blessing and have a continue, it's still hard. You're never completely safe. There's not a single point in the game where you cease to be vulnerable. You're just less so. And the attention to detail, hundreds of hours into the game, you're still learning new stuff about the world, the enemies, and what you can do. I suspect a year, or two years from now, people will still be discussing new tricks you can do.

What other game can boast such achievements in such a short period of time?

I shudder to think of a 6th Elder Scrolls that takes the lessons given by BoTW and mixes in the ability of player modding. It'll suck the life out of people.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline trappedslider

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #462 on: April 01, 2017, 08:00:57 PM »
maybe they didn't understand YOUR expectations, I haven't gone looking for them but yours is the first negative post about the game I've seen.
Nah.
Also the user ratings of the game have been holding strong at being lower than the professional "critics" which has led to the whole controversy that Nintendo paid everyone off.

Then of course their are the fans. Like Metacritic has been under fire every since it posted it's 97% because it didn't list BotW high enough to please the fans. Which is pretty inline with your response really, Zelda is perfect so it must be me right? :p

Well, i went and looked at metacritic's negative user reviews after I posted that I hadn't gone looking for them, and those tend to line up with yours more or less.

Isn't the map like larger than other current open world games' maps by a factor of 2x if not more?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #463 on: April 01, 2017, 10:00:37 PM »
Isn't the map like larger than other current open world games' maps by a factor of 2x if not more?
Sort of. Comparing the size of tiled low-res cel-blured floor panel called "grass" in one game to another's high-res ground tile is a little unfair.

From image comparisons of the map is it indeed larger than Skyrim, sort of. I mean they are both about the same distance end-to-end but BotW's is more square shaped adding land mass to Skyrim's odd shaped empty areas. But it's noticeably more empty as well. To fit the game into the tablet's apparently very low hardware quality things had to be sacrificed. Much of the map is extremely wide open areas which primarily serve as loading zones and as a result they have nothing in them. And several map sections are noticeably hedged off by canyons or rivers to prevent you from sailing over too quickly for the same exact reason. Kakariko Village is probably the worst, it's build inside a canyon that cannot be sailed into and is extremely long run-ins scaled for full horse speed which makes it a painfully long run when on foot. And all that loading area gets you is maybe 15 none-moving NPCs at most opposed to Skyrim's massively populated cities with behavior scripted NPCs walking about on tasks. So it's pretty unfair to say BotW is larger once you realize that mechanically most of the map is just an interactive loading screen.

You also can't go more than ten minutes in Skyrim without tripping over a new point of interest over the entire scale of the map, it gets so crowded that at times you simply can't find the mark you want because it's buried under another forcing you to zoom all the way in to split them. And here, don't take my word for it. Here is Skyrim's map, with over 150 dungeons expanding the game's content. And here is BotW's map which does only show the 120 shrines (30 less than Skyrim's dungeons) the 15 towers that make up your fast travel points but it also lists all the discoverable stables as well. I could complain Skyrim's dungeons all look alike, but as BotW's Shrines are one room repeating designs too, and several of them are not even unique but direct copypasta (eg the battle ones), they are both guilty of padding in this area.

It's just not living up to the hype the game or the critics generated and it's not as immersive or as expansive as Skyrim. Trying to judge it based on other Zelda games is also pretty hard. Like the previous model was to lock off areas until you had a key item to sequentially unlock them. LbW expanded on this and gave you almost full map access so you could pick the order of things with the items mostly serving as a key to a specific dungeon rather than a key to explore a new area. BotW on the other hand locked off entire sections of the map using death & reload for anyone wanting to venture forth. It's a move from simply marking an area as inaccessible to penalizing the player for trying to explore it. And that's really the main point when it comes to trying to hold up on it's own. It's a game full of penalties for the player to deal with and they detract from an otherwise decent, but slightly repetitive, game.

I sincerely doubt by the end of the game I'll be saying it's better than OoT.

Edit - To really paint the picture I supposed, I've died dozens upon dozens of times. But I currently only have 8 hearts and the zora tunic, & climber's hat/legs for armor (like that's it, nothing but the starting armor besides that). Without using any regeneration foods, mostly because I die in one hit, but also no heart+ food either. I killed the hardest Guardian Scout in Chaas Qeta, the everyone complains about, this afternoon. It was super easy, combat isn't the thing that kills really dispute being binarily lethal.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 04:06:42 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline trappedslider

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #464 on: April 03, 2017, 05:21:15 AM »
To do a no mod run or just go mod crazy when I get my FO4 copy on tuesday......choices choices...

Offline brujon

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #465 on: April 03, 2017, 06:33:52 AM »
To do a no mod run or just go mod crazy when I get my FO4 copy on tuesday......choices choices...

I'd go with a minimally modded run. Only mods that fixes glitches or are just quality of life improvement mods, much like SkyUI was for Skyrim. No mods that change gameplay or add content. Graphics ok as well.

To play completely Vanilla... I can't even.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline trappedslider

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #466 on: April 03, 2017, 07:37:01 AM »
To do a no mod run or just go mod crazy when I get my FO4 copy on tuesday......choices choices...

I'd go with a minimally modded run. Only mods that fixes glitches or are just quality of life improvement mods, much like SkyUI was for Skyrim. No mods that change gameplay or add content. Graphics ok as well.

To play completely Vanilla... I can't even.

I have a Vanilla save on my xbox along with a couple of modded saves,but I may do a Vanilla run for the first play since it's just the base FO4.. Speaking of SkyUI, I got it for skyrim but then got a mod that turns off everything but the MCM lol.

I've already gotten a good idea of which mods,I'll download once I do a modded run, but if you'd like to suggest any,feel free to.

Offline trappedslider

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #467 on: April 05, 2017, 07:50:40 AM »
Is it just me or was Skyrim more mod friendly than FO4?

Offline brujon

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #468 on: April 05, 2017, 12:06:25 PM »
To do a no mod run or just go mod crazy when I get my FO4 copy on tuesday......choices choices...

I'd go with a minimally modded run. Only mods that fixes glitches or are just quality of life improvement mods, much like SkyUI was for Skyrim. No mods that change gameplay or add content. Graphics ok as well.

To play completely Vanilla... I can't even.

I have a Vanilla save on my xbox along with a couple of modded saves,but I may do a Vanilla run for the first play since it's just the base FO4.. Speaking of SkyUI, I got it for skyrim but then got a mod that turns off everything but the MCM lol.

I've already gotten a good idea of which mods,I'll download once I do a modded run, but if you'd like to suggest any,feel free to.

Unofficial Patch - http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/4598/?

Absolutely a must have.

NewDialog - http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/619/?

Fixes the absolutely god-awful FO4 dialogue options to a more New Vegas style that is much more player-friendly.

True Storms - http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/4472/?

This makes the game look prettier. Me likey.

Vivid Fallout - http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/1769/?

If your PC is older like mine is, this will help with performance. Otherwise, skip.

Place Everywhere - http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/9424/?

If you want to build pretty settlements, this is key. Let's you place stuff anywhere, no more red boxes when placing things.

Improved Map - http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/1215/?

A map you can actually see stuff on. Must have. It's not cheating, just the roads are more visible and the map has improved contrast.

Enhanced Lighting and FX - http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/13596/?

This makes game look prettier. Me likey.


That's about it... I haven't yet delved deeply into FO4 modding, so that's about the extent i modded my own playthrough. This basically changes nothing gameplay wise. It's as vanilla as vanilla, but somewhat prettier, somewhat improved.


"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline trappedslider

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #469 on: April 05, 2017, 02:50:04 PM »
Got the dialog,
the Unofficial patch may have to wait since I have just the base game ( no DLC)
Got True Storms
Also got Wasteland Water Revival (pretty water)
As for the settlement stuff, I went and got Sims Settlement
Also got the map and CBBE

Offline brujon

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #470 on: April 05, 2017, 05:13:31 PM »
Oh yeah, CBBE, some eye candy... Always nice. Always nice.
I never got the water because i was afraid it would hit performance...

I really need a new computer soon-ish.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline trappedslider

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #471 on: April 05, 2017, 07:42:08 PM »
My computer's current graphic card is a GeForce GTX 1060 and so it got on the highest settings when it auto-dected. I'm currently having issues with looksmenu..http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/12631/? I'm not sure if it's due to installing F4SE incorrectly or what.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #472 on: April 06, 2017, 04:02:55 PM »
I'm not sure if it's due to installing F4SE incorrectly or what.
If it helps given company/engine/community relation, I had issues with Steam/Nexus not installing Skyrim's script extender correctly. Several mods wouldn't actually work correctly until I manually installed it then noticeably lag shot up by a ton, it's likely the script extenders are simply new delegates for event hooks, but everything worked as advertised until I promptly removed it.



Offline trappedslider

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #473 on: April 06, 2017, 06:07:27 PM »
I'm not sure if it's due to installing F4SE incorrectly or what.
If it helps given company/engine/community relation, I had issues with Steam/Nexus not installing Skyrim's script extender correctly. Several mods wouldn't actually work correctly until I manually installed it then noticeably lag shot up by a ton, it's likely the script extenders are simply new delegates for event hooks, but everything worked as advertised until I promptly removed it.

I never had any issues with SKSE, and I followed the video how to for F4SE..so I think it's more to do with the mod. But I uninstalled it and moved on lol.

Offline trappedslider

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #474 on: April 07, 2017, 05:27:09 AM »
Well, specs for project Scorpio https://gamerant.com/xbox-project-scorpio-spec-info/ que PC master race going "We can do that already" and so on and so forth :P

I'm tempted to trade my current Xbox One in towards a Scropio depending on what deals Gamestop has going

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #475 on: April 07, 2017, 10:44:29 AM »
So you may've heard it or not but Dawn of War 3 is almost upon us. Base building is back, assault marines are light infantry, all eldar get force fields, there's only 3 factions but they all get giant robots, and orks go full TTGL with drill mechas and their units able to upgrade by picking up scrap left from destroyed vehicles.

They'll also be starting an open beta this month.

Oh, and there's doctrines to pick now, so you can probably expect to see micro-transactions galore and constant power creep with new shinier doctrines slowly draining your wallet if you want to remain competitive in MP.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #476 on: April 07, 2017, 10:45:25 AM »
At first I thought "Hooray!"

And then I thought it sounded kind of like Starcraft.

Lastly I was annoyed, I don't want micro-transactions.

Offline brujon

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #477 on: April 07, 2017, 10:50:02 AM »
Well, specs for project Scorpio https://gamerant.com/xbox-project-scorpio-spec-info/ que PC master race going "We can do that already" and so on and so forth :P

I'm tempted to trade my current Xbox One in towards a Scropio depending on what deals Gamestop has going

Further evidence consoles have basically become PC's... No longer can you buy one and expect it to last 5+ years at a minimum.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline trappedslider

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #478 on: April 07, 2017, 12:38:03 PM »
While wondering in FO4, I saw Gunners plaza and thought that Beth had missed the chance of doing a quest regarding it..among other things they  missed

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Videogame Discussion III - Snake Eater
« Reply #479 on: April 07, 2017, 01:15:20 PM »
Two (three?) weeks into BotW and I'm almost at a point where I can proficiently run across the map use Fast Travel and run 100 yards without dying every ten minutes. I got thirteen hearts and thus the Master Sword which always breaks in the middle of a fight but at least I'm not permanently breaking weapons hitting those stupid switches that appear in every single shrine because no one was like "hey do you think Link could just punch all of this stuff?".

I have the full cold gear set, lv1 upgraded too, and several other armor sets even through I totally suck as lining my hips up. That's mostly thanks to selling meat from shooting animals I run past that replenishes 20~40 hearts (which I'm pretty sure is an internal joke) thanks to the supply of 700 arrows I racked up while watching West World and absentmindedly mashing the A button which the exact amount of attention I paid to Hill Climb Racing 2's watch-commercials-to-win app on my phone. I even have the desert set and the Sapphire Crown for lots of Heat Resistance but the game is like "f*&k you" and no amount of heat resistance lets you explore the Goron area, instead I'm supposed to talk to an NPC for "fire proof!" #itsthesamefuckingthing

I even started picking up extra stamina so Link can finally outrun things, oh I know you can overfill your bar with food but screw food. Permanent bonuses outweigh temporary ones, specially when it comes down to basic things like walking faster. I even went out and found two flaming swords so I can now light wood on fire too, so now night time is just a hindrance of menu selections and a 30 second black loading screen, unless it's raining which is always is.

Point is, I've almost brought reached a point in the game that it's starting to feel like a Zelda game. Like I even felt like trying to stab an enemy for the hell of it instead of running past it like I always have to, a moment of epic achievement! I just had to give up several weeks of my life and most of my in game inventory space. And.... Well the pointless repetition is already settling in too. I'm like 50 Shrines deep into 120 and they already felt repetitive by like the tenth. Kill bot, run in collect chest & leave, stupid motion control deal that we were all sick of eleven years ago, or fan-made Aperture Science room #347 - No Portals just carry blocks around. Hell, two of them were just take pictures of the other or google it, no internal puzzles to figure out to begin with. But since I still die in one hit I'm a little hesitant to try one of the only four dungeons in the game. Even the scenery blends into each other, like after picking it up again I have to check the map to know where I am because only the jungle, desert, and BURNING mountains look unique enough to tell difference between them. I can't even tell the copypasted stables apart either which is a pain in the rear because some of them have those full recovery + temp heart things around them so I really need to find them again and stamp it.

I think Majora's Mask was a better game too. At least you knew everything you did would be wiped away in certain intervals too rather than unexpected cut scenes during already imposed delays you just can't skip out of fast enough to make you feel better.