Author Topic: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing  (Read 40231 times)

Offline Raineh Daze

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Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« on: May 30, 2013, 04:25:11 PM »
Uh... not my fault, honest.

Anyway, due to an onrunning series of complaints about how WotC underpowered nigh on everything in Greek mythology, it's come to the point where... well, why not buff the monsters to where they should be? The Hydra as a poisonous, land-wasting monstrosity, the Nemean Lion as this... indestructible shapechanging thing, Stymphalian Birds as a storm of feathers. Medusa... um... probably more dangerous because of her sisters, honestly. Probably the Hecatoncheires and Titans making an appearance at some point...

And, to cap it all off, Typhon. Father of all monsters. Fought Zeus. Buried under a mountain.

... seems like something that'd need to be high level out of necessity. Err, this probably wasn't what was meant. Oh well. XD

... no chance of my running it, though. No experience.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2013, 04:46:13 PM »
Adding to what RD said:

This came out of a discussion about the CR of classic monsters from Greek myth.
Things like the complaint that the Nemean Lion was, according to some at WotC, a Dire Lion, and it only seemed greater because of the fact that Heracles was only level 6 or sum-such. Which is complete bollocks if you know anything about the powers of either of them.

So, yeah, looking at / for a DM willing to cook these creatures up, then throw us at them in a campaign. Butchering our way through the great beasts of the myths, all the way up to ones like Typhon.

Not really looking to start out with the power of Heracles, since he needed that power to do it alone. Maybe something like level 8 Gestalt against pseudo-epic creatures.


I'm just going to put this here:
I am now the DM for this.
This is going to be a tough game.
In the spoiler below is Character Generation type stuff.

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« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 01:42:33 AM by ariasderros »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 05:06:53 PM »
Adding to what RD said:

This came out of a discussion about the CR of classic monsters from Greek myth.
Things like the complaint that the Nemean Lion was, according to some at WotC, a Dire Lion, and it only seemed greater because of the fact that Heracles was only level 6 or sum-such. Which is complete bollocks if you know anything about the powers of either of them.

Nah, someone on GitP. Who assumed that because the Hydra and a Dire Lion are a similar sort of CR, the Dire Lion must be the Nemean Lion, and Heracles is around that level too.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 05:07:22 PM »
Anyway, due to an onrunning series of complaints about how WotC underpowered nigh on everything in Greek mythology, it's come to the point where... well, why not buff the monsters to where they should be?
...
And, to cap it all off, Typhon. Father of all monsters. Fought Zeus. Buried under a mountain.

You already answered your own complaint.

Wotc didn't underpower nigh everything in Greek mythology.

It's simply that high level D&D is crazy, crazy powerful.

After all, if Typhon, Father of all monsters, let something such as being buried under a mountain stop him, then he simply isn't epic by D&D terms. Not saying that burying someone under a nonanimated mountain isn't badass. Just saying that's something epic D&D characters/enemies are suposed to shrug off like bosses.

This is, even the God of War dude has to stop when he finds a simple locked door. Made of wood. Wuss. :P

EDIT: And remember-the greatest greek heroes, that went around slaying most of those monsters, still got slowed down 10 fricking years because of some simple walls back in Troy.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 05:11:38 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 05:15:24 PM »
Anyway, due to an onrunning series of complaints about how WotC underpowered nigh on everything in Greek mythology, it's come to the point where... well, why not buff the monsters to where they should be?
...
And, to cap it all off, Typhon. Father of all monsters. Fought Zeus. Buried under a mountain.

You already answered your own complaint.

Wotc didn't underpower nigh everything in Greek mythology.

Actually, they did. The Hydra isn't just a regenerating beasty. Its steps killed the land, one of its heads was completely immortal, its breath, if inhaled, WILL kill you... hell, the list of things its blood OHKO'ed is quite long. Including Heracles. After his shirt was soaked in it. Many, many years after the fact.

Quote
It's simply that high level D&D is crazy, crazy powerful.

After all, if Typhon, Father of all monsters, let something such as being buried under a mountain stop him, then he simply isn't epic by D&D terms. Not saying that burying someone under a nonanimated mountain isn't badass. Just saying that's something epic D&D characters/enemies are suposed to shrug off like bosses.

What's the strength score for lifting a mountain, again? :p

Tall as the stars, hundred dragon heads, wings everywhere, mass of serpents for legs, spews fire from his eyes, child of Tartarus and Gaia... also beat Zeus the first time round and left him in a sack with no sinews. Mountain sneak attack?

Oh, that's also the explanation for why Mt. Etna is a volcano. @_@

Typhon's children... Nemean Lion, Cerberus, Lernaean Hydra, the Chimaera, the (Greek) Sphinx, the dragon in the Garden of the Hesperides, and a two-headed dog guarding some cows.

The only one of these children that got killed by someone at Troy is the sphinx. Who committed suicide because... I think it was Odysseus got her riddle right, in one story? Two of them never died, the third choked itself on some lead, the fourth had its still-living head buried, another only died 'cause Heracles had the strength to choke it to death (this is the guy who moved some rivers to clean a building yet STILL didn't want to deal with the dragon)... they're not CR 3-5. >.>

EDIT: Anyway, the point isn't 'they should be really high level', it's 'they should be stronger than they are', and generally more interesting to boot.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 05:22:05 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2013, 05:22:44 PM »
You know I'd run it if I had time... sorry dudes. Depending on timing maybe I could play.  Maybe a Dread Champion antihero... :D
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2013, 05:23:48 PM »
EDIT: And remember-the greatest greek heroes, that went around slaying most of those monsters, still got slowed down 10 fricking years because of some simple walls back in Troy.

While you are also forgetting getting lost at sea, you must remember, he had a Composite Greatbow that no-one else could even string, much less draw. A lot of Strength for good ol' Ody.

Almost as much strength as certain PC's.  :D

And he was a human. The others, well, RD said it there. No mere humans.


Still kind of want to play a game where we're the level of people as are Heracles, Perseus, or even God of War's Kratos.
(And, c'mon Osle, what I most want would be to play a kid of Clio's, if only there was some kind of class for having power over history.)
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2013, 05:42:34 PM »
You know I'd run it if I had time... sorry dudes. Depending on timing maybe I could play.  Maybe a Dread Champion antihero... :D

You don't get that sort of thing in Greek myth. Morality optional, you just have to be badass enough. :p

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2013, 05:46:05 PM »
You know I'd run it if I had time... sorry dudes. Depending on timing maybe I could play.  Maybe a Dread Champion antihero... :D

You don't get that sort of thing in Greek myth. Morality optional, you just have to be badass enough. :p

More like it not mattering how horrible you are, because you are generally the lesser evil, and you are taking out the things worse than you.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2013, 05:46:19 PM »
Anyway, due to an onrunning series of complaints about how WotC underpowered nigh on everything in Greek mythology, it's come to the point where... well, why not buff the monsters to where they should be?
...
And, to cap it all off, Typhon. Father of all monsters. Fought Zeus. Buried under a mountain.

You already answered your own complaint.

Wotc didn't underpower nigh everything in Greek mythology.

Actually, they did. The Hydra isn't just a regenerating beasty. Its steps killed the land, one of its heads was completely immortal, its breath, if inhaled, WILL kill you... hell, the list of things its blood OHKO'ed is quite long.
Killed the land? Quite in the contrary! It produced excellent crabs!

Including Heracles. After his shirt was soaked in it. Many, many years after the fact.
Nope. Heracles is hurt by a shirt soaked in the blood of a centaur.

Unable to secure any kind of healing whatsoever, he sets himself on fire in a regular pyre to end his own misery.

What kind of "epic" death is that suposed to be? Sure zeus lighted him up. But it was still the wood burning that kills him.

Quote
It's simply that high level D&D is crazy, crazy powerful.

After all, if Typhon, Father of all monsters, let something such as being buried under a mountain stop him, then he simply isn't epic by D&D terms. Not saying that burying someone under a nonanimated mountain isn't badass. Just saying that's something epic D&D characters/enemies are suposed to shrug off like bosses.

What's the strength score for lifting a mountain, again? :p
Hulking Hurlers can throw small planets you know. :smirk

Tall as the stars, hundred dragon heads, wings everywhere, mass of serpents for legs, spews fire from his eyes, child of Tartarus and Gaia... also beat Zeus the first time round and left him in a sack with no sinews. Mountain sneak attack?
Considering that your carrying capacity increases exponentially with size, then complete wuss if he's "tall as the stars" and can't even lift a mountain.

Zeus clearly got himself quite a bit of levels between their two battles.


Typhon's children... Nemean Lion, Cerberus, Lernaean Hydra, the Chimaera, the (Greek) Sphinx, the dragon in the Garden of the Hesperides, and a two-headed dog guarding some cows.

The only one of these children that got killed by someone at Troy is the sphinx. Who committed suicide because... I think it was Odysseus got her riddle right, in one story? Two of them never died, the third choked itself on some lead, the fourth had its still-living head buried, another only died 'cause Heracles had the strength to choke it to death (this is the guy who moved some rivers to clean a building yet STILL didn't want to deal with the dragon)... they're not CR 3-5. >.>

People were moving rivers since the dawn of history. Hard work and basic engineering is enough.

Also you're forgeting Theseus, that killed the minotaur, then has no solution whatsoever to a really tall piece of rock on Troy.

Plus Medusa and Manticore are CR 7, hydra goes all the way to CR 11.

EDIT: And remember-the greatest greek heroes, that went around slaying most of those monsters, still got slowed down 10 fricking years because of some simple walls back in Troy.

While you are also forgetting getting lost at sea, you must remember, he had a Composite Greatbow that no-one else could even string, much less draw. A lot of Strength for good ol' Ody.
If by "no-one else" you mean "bunch of drunk losers who couldn't even get a wife so were after some old aparent widow", then sure. :eh

And he was a human. The others, well, RD said it there. No mere humans.
For a "mere" human, he seems to be the only one that actually manages some sort of happy ending! :lol

Still kind of want to play a game where we're the level of people as are Heracles, Perseus, or even God of War's Kratos.
(And, c'mon Osle, what I most want would be to play a kid of Clio's, if only there was some kind of class for having power over history.)
Claiming you want to play guys fully vulnerable to poison and mind-affecting only reinforces that you want low-mid levels.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2013, 05:57:57 PM »
Quote
Several years later, rumor tells Deianira that she has a rival for the love of Heracles. Deianira, remembering Nessus' words, gives Heracles the bloodstained shirt. Lichas, the herald, delivers the shirt to Heracles. However, it is still covered in the Hydra's blood from Heracles' arrows, and this poisons him, tearing his skin and exposing his bones. Before he dies, Heracles throws Lichas into the sea, thinking he was the one who poisoned him (according to several versions, Lichas turns to stone, becoming a rock standing in the sea, named for him). Heracles then uproots several trees and builds a funeral pyre, which Poeas, father of Philoctetes, lights. As his body burns, only his immortal side is left. Through Zeus' apotheosis, Heracles rises to Olympus as he dies.

Okay, so he didn't die because his shirt was soaked in hydra blood. He died because he touched a shirt soaked in centaur blood after the centaur had been poisoned by hydra blood. And it dissolved his flesh.

Still had time to build himself a funeral pyre whilst dissolving. That's awesome.

Quote
Considering that your carrying capacity increases exponentially with size, then complete wuss if he can't even lift a mountain.

Hey, the size table caps out at Colossal, even if such a thing is clearly far beyond that. Only statistics is letting Hulking Hurlers move the blasted things.

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Please, people were moving rivers since the dawn of history. Hard work and basic engineering is enough.

He rerouted the river, let it clean the stables, then set it back on course... in the space of a single day.

Quote
Also you're forgeting Theseus, that killed the minotaur, then has no solution whatsoever to a really tall piece of rock on Troy.

Theseus was at Troy? Huh. Learn something new every day. The minotaur is more 'scary' than 'absolutely incredibly lethal', though. Aided by being stuck in the Labyrinth.

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Plus Medusa and Manticore are CR 7, hydra goes all the way to CR 11.

Do any of these CR 11 hydra have such ridiculous poison?

Quote
For a "mere" human, he seems to be the only one that actually manages some sort of happy ending!

Happy endings weren't so popular. :p

Quote
Claiming you want to play guys fully vulnerable to poison and mind-affecting only reinforces that you want low-mid levels.

Aren't you the one that constantly gives '+5 to saves if you're immune' to creatures? Given what we're dealing with here, it'd probably be something like that. :eh

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2013, 06:12:00 PM »
Killed the land? Quite in the contrary! It produced excellent crabs!
Funny, but Hydra still killed the land. One, god-empowered, thing lasting long enough to be kicked or crushed in an instant doesn't count, since it wasn't nearby long enough to tell if it was immune. Not that it would mean anything if it were, since the god-empowered bit.
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Including Heracles. After his shirt was soaked in it. Many, many years after the fact.
Nope. Heracles is hurt by a shirt soaked in the blood of a centaur.
The shirt was of a centaur, but it was the blood of the Hydra that was on the arrows that pierced the shirt that was the poison that killed him. The blood was so strong of a poison, third party transfer many years after the fact was still powerful enough to kill Heracles.

Quote
Unable to secure any kind of healing whatsoever, he sets himself on fire in a regular pyre to end his own misery.

What kind of "epic" death is that suposed to be? Sure zeus lighted him up. But it was still the wood burning that kills him.
Never heard of Zeus lighting him, in fact it was his friend's dad lit the thing.
But, in any case, it just burnt off his flesh. His spirit attained godhood at that point. Daddy intervened.

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Considering that your carrying capacity increases exponentially with size, then complete wuss if he's "tall as the stars" and can't even lift a mountain.
He can't lift it, because he took one-hundred hits from the lightning bolts of Zeus. This caused him to permanently be Dazed, Immobilized, etc., then he got buried for good measure.

Quote
Zeus clearly got himself quite a bit of levels between their two battles.
And some more help by things like the Hecta, & one-eyes.


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People were moving rivers since the dawn of history. Hard work and basic engineering is enough.

Also you're forgeting Theseus, that killed the minotaur, then has no solution whatsoever to a really tall piece of rock on Troy.
We're talking the trials of Heracles & the Titanomachy War, you have now twice retorted with the Illiad. ummm. No. Different playing fields entirely. But thanks for trying.

Quote
For a "mere" human, he seems to be the only one that actually manages some sort of happy ending! :lol
Greeks are known for their Epics, their Tragedies, and their Epic Tragedies.

Quote
Claiming you want to play guys fully vulnerable to poison and mind-affecting only reinforces that you want low-mid levels.
Scholar 5, Paragon X. Using Anomander's contributed Excellences to advance Maneuvers. Also, I'm working on a healing Discipline. I could go on, but there's stuff out there to use. But I don't know exactly what starting level I'd want. We're still fishing for a DM.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 06:14:52 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2013, 06:15:17 PM »
Quote
Typhon is the offspring of Gaia and Tartarus. His mate is Echidna and both were so fearful that when the gods saw them they changed into animals and fled in terror. Typhon's hundred, horrible heads touched the stars, venom dripped from his evil eyes, and lava and red-hot stones poured from his gaping mouths. Hissing like a hundred snakes and roaring like a hundred lions, he tore up whole mountains and threw them at the gods.
Zeus soon regained his courage and turned, and when the other gods saw him taking his stand, they came back to help him fight the monster. A terrible battle raged, and hardly a living creature was left on Earth. But Zeus was fated to win, and as Typhon tore up huge Mount Aetna to hurl at the gods, Zeus struck it with a hundred well-aimed thunderbolts and the mountain fell back, pinning Typhon underneath. There the monster lies to this very day, belching fire, lava and smoke through the top of the mountain.
Echidna, his hideous mate, escaped destruction. She cowered in a cave, protecting Typhon's offspring, and Zeus let them live as a challenge to future heroes. Echidna and Typhon's children are the Nemean Lion, Cerberus, Ladon, the Chimera, the Sphinx, and the Hydra

There's another telling of the fight against Typhon.

So he could lift a mountain, he's just a bit squished right now and not in much of a position to do so.

Either way, this is an idea predicated on the monsters, as demonstrated in the Labours and the older creatures (the Hecatoncheires, lurking in the Epic Level Handbook, are from Greek myth) being dangerous enough for mid-to-high levels. Sure, you might disagree with it--but that's no reason to say that they aren't at all near that level in D&D because it hands out immunities like discount coupons.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 06:17:47 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2013, 07:05:39 PM »
For the record, the crab was god-empowered after being defeated by heracles.

Quote
For a "mere" human, he seems to be the only one that actually manages some sort of happy ending! :lol
Greeks are known for their Epics, their Tragedies, and their Epic Tragedies.
And comedies.
And maths.
And philosophies.
And political system development.
And olympic games.
And...

I could go on all night, but alas I have other things to do.

I wish you luck finding a DM who can make heads or tails from your descriptions. "Totally tall as the stars, a mountain is still enough to fully cover him".

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2013, 07:16:48 PM »
For the record, the crab was god-empowered after being defeated by heracles.

I'm not terribly sure what relevance the crab has, honestly. It was a failure of a distraction.

I wish you luck finding a DM who can make heads or tails from your descriptions. "Totally tall as the stars, a mountain is still enough to fully cover him".

Either hyperbole, being squished, or the Greeks' not thinking stars were all that far away.

Anyhow, incomplete list of relevant creatures (mostly taken from the Labours):

Nemean Lion
The Hydra
Stymphalian Birds
Two-Headed Dog (Orthrus)
Cerberus
Dragon Thing (Garden of the Hesperides)
Mares of Diomedes
You could possibly work the Cretan Bull and Erymanthean Boar into things
The Chimaera
Sphinx (probably the least imposing of Typhon's children... but definitely the smartest)
The Hecatoncheires
Medusa (w/ appropriate sisterly backup)
Echidna
Typhon

Anything else, save for the Titans? XD

Offline Quillwraith

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2013, 07:22:50 PM »
Argument...
 :sofa

This sounds cool; I am interested.
So, yeah, looking at / for a DM willing to cook these creatures up, then throw us at them in a campaign. Butchering our way through the great beasts of the myths, all the way up to ones like Typhon.
I know greek myths, and am willing to stat monsters, but I'm already DMing Legacy of the Makers, and am not much good at it IMO.

I'll DM if no-one better or less busy wants to, though.





Anyhow, incomplete list of relevant creatures (mostly taken from the Labours):

Nemean Lion
The Hydra
Stymphalian Birds
Two-Headed Dog (Orthrus)
Cerberus
Dragon Thing (Garden of the Hesperides)
Mares of Diomedes
You could possibly work the Cretan Bull and Erymanthean Boar into things
The Chimaera
Sphinx (probably the least imposing of Typhon's children... but definitely the smartest)
The Hecatoncheires
Medusa (w/ appropriate sisterly backup)
Echidna
Typhon

Anything else, save for the Titans? XD
Calydonian Boar, maybe
Scylla & Charibdis
The Chimera
Laistrygonians
Lamia
Sirens

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2013, 07:28:32 PM »
Ah, Manticore, forgot that. As it turns out, just a wild beast. Persian... but we use the Greek name, through Latin. Damn it, stupid thing. :shakefist

This is also quite possibly the perfect campaign for 1-5 levels of this. :lmao
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 07:53:41 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline bhu

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2013, 12:26:18 AM »
What are you going to do about mages?

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2013, 12:35:51 AM »
Shove them in on the basis that this is still D&D even if it's ancient greek D&D?

Agree not to play them because it'll be more fun that way?

Got any alternative ideas?

Anyway, also declaring interest, cause this sounds friggin cool.

Offline Elevevated Beat

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Re: Ancient Greek Monster Hunting Idea Thing
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2013, 12:42:08 AM »
Could have a heavily homebrewed mage-type class with a restricted spell list dependent on what can be found in the stories.
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