Author Topic: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion  (Read 10078 times)

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
For my new handbook in progress here. I'll see if I can fill it a bit more over this weekend, but if anybody has any suggestions or sample builds they want to share, go ahead.

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2014, 11:27:11 PM »
Thanks for the sample dragon builds. It's a really useful resource. I've always hated the time it takes to set up a dragon encounter just from all the things you have to pick. It's nearly as bad as high-level NPCs.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2014, 11:29:33 PM »
I feel bad for you when it gets to statting up Red Dragons.

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2014, 06:47:27 AM »
I feel bad for you when it gets to statting up Red Dragons.

Wait till he tackles Gems. Then he has to switch over to Psionics.

Also, at least one of the dragon entries (wyrmling) doesn't have a CR.

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2014, 12:25:10 PM »
Added more black dragon builds. And change of plans, for now gonna skip age categories that don't add anything to the previous one besides slightly bigger numbers and one extra feat. So with the black wyrm done, time to get to work on the blues!

I feel bad for you when it gets to statting up Red Dragons.

Wait till he tackles Gems. Then he has to switch over to Psionics.

Also, at least one of the dragon entries (wyrmling) doesn't have a CR.
I'm not touching 3.0 psionics even if you gave me a 11 foot stick

Offline Stratovarius

  • Forum Host
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
  • Arhosan Emperor
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2014, 12:41:11 PM »
I feel bad for you when it gets to statting up Red Dragons.

Wait till he tackles Gems. Then he has to switch over to Psionics.

Also, at least one of the dragon entries (wyrmling) doesn't have a CR.
I'm not touching 3.0 psionics even if you gave me a 11 foot stick

3.5 Psionics isn't too bad, since it's really just point based spellcasting. 3.0, on the other hand...

I believe there was a quote on the old CO board something like "3.0 Psionic Combat is like using money as toilet paper instead of buying toilet paper", or something to those effects.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2014, 04:49:12 PM »
I feel bad for you when it gets to statting up Red Dragons.
Why?

Dragon, Red Juvenile
Large Dragon (Fire)
Hit Dice: 16d12+64 (168 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor)
AC: 24 (-1 size, +15 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+29
Attack: 1 Bite +24, 2 claws +19, 2 wings +19, 1 Tail Slap +19 melee; Breath +24 ranged
Damage: 1 bite 2d6+9, 2 claws 1d8+4, 2 wings 1d6+4, 1 tail slap 1d8+13, Breath weapon 8d10 (22)
Space: 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
Special Qualities: Fire subtype, Locate object, Caster Level: 3rd, Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells
Special Attacks: Breath weapon
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +12
Abilities: Str 29, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
Skills: Skill points: 38, plus Jump16
Feats: #Feats: 6

Climate/Terrain: Temperate and warm hill, mountains, and underground
Organization: Solitary or clutch (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Double Standard
Alignment: Always Chaotic Evil
Advancement: 17-18 HD (large)
Realmshelp has virtually every single one of them posted online. All you have to do is come up with some theme appropriate Spells for the Great Wyrm and copypasta the list removing the ones the younger age groups don't have access to.

Once Ols gets going, you should see a trend in the items coming form the same optimized choice pool. As part of providing semi-generic and theme fitting dragons,you'll see them picking up the same relative immunities as he goes. It's the same set up you see your PCs with really. Except as a PC you may have been side tracked by stuff that increases your Turns per day, or your Smite Evil, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack, etc. TDs lacking that, will primarily deviate for their color coded themes and weaknesses, that's about it.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2014, 05:03:09 PM »
I feel bad for you when it gets to statting up Red Dragons.
Why?

Dragon, Red Juvenile
Large Dragon (Fire)
Hit Dice: 16d12+64 (168 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor)
AC: 24 (-1 size, +15 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+29
Attack: 1 Bite +24, 2 claws +19, 2 wings +19, 1 Tail Slap +19 melee; Breath +24 ranged
Damage: 1 bite 2d6+9, 2 claws 1d8+4, 2 wings 1d6+4, 1 tail slap 1d8+13, Breath weapon 8d10 (22)
Space: 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
Special Qualities: Fire subtype, Locate object, Caster Level: 3rd, Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells
Special Attacks: Breath weapon
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +12
Abilities: Str 29, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
Skills: Skill points: 38, plus Jump16
Feats: #Feats: 6

Climate/Terrain: Temperate and warm hill, mountains, and underground
Organization: Solitary or clutch (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Double Standard
Alignment: Always Chaotic Evil
Advancement: 17-18 HD (large)
Realmshelp has virtually every single one of them posted online. All you have to do is come up with some theme appropriate Spells for the Great Wyrm and copypasta the list removing the ones the younger age groups don't have access to.

Once Ols gets going, you should see a trend in the items coming form the same optimized choice pool. As part of providing semi-generic and theme fitting dragons,you'll see them picking up the same relative immunities as he goes. It's the same set up you see your PCs with really. Except as a PC you may have been side tracked by stuff that increases your Turns per day, or your Smite Evil, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack, etc. TDs lacking that, will primarily deviate for their color coded themes and weaknesses, that's about it.

Mostly that they're the best spellcasters, largest, and all around have the most stat bloat.

Gold Dragons are marginally stronger. (What I can't get my head around is why all the metallic dragons are comparatively better than the chromatic dragons).

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2014, 05:19:42 PM »
For the same reason the toughest non-dragon in the MM is a Lawful Good Angel?

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2014, 05:19:59 PM »
Realmshelp has virtually every single one of them posted online. All you have to do is come up with some theme appropriate Spells for the Great Wyrm and copypasta the list removing the ones the younger age groups don't have access to.
Arigato Soro Sempai!

Eerr, sorry, been watching a bit too much anime today. But that's definetely gonna save me a LOT of boring writing, so thanks again.

Once Ols gets going, you should see a trend in the items coming form the same optimized choice pool. As part of providing semi-generic and theme fitting dragons,you'll see them picking up the same relative immunities as he goes. It's the same set up you see your PCs with really. Except as a PC you may have been side tracked by stuff that increases your Turns per day, or your Smite Evil, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack, etc. TDs lacking that, will primarily deviate for their color coded themes and weaknesses, that's about it.
Well, one of the nice aspects about dragons is that you can specialize them for different stuff. Heck, you kinda have to considering they have sorceror spellcasting and thus can't go changing their spell list daily. I plan to have each color be focused on a certain strategy that's thematic for them,  and later on go about specific feat/spell/item combos on the other guide sections.


Mostly that they're the best spellcasters, largest, and all around have the most stat bloat.
Lolwhut? :psyduck

Dragons are quite lagging behind in spellcasting.  There are monsters out there that are actually fullcasters, and they have even more bloated mental scores than dragons. There are even monsters that have faster spellcasting progression than fullcasters of the same CR.

They're also lagging behind in size. Most dragons don't actually ever get colossal, and those who do so only achieve it over epic levels. Heck, several dragons start small if not tiny sized.

Gold Dragons are marginally stronger. (What I can't get my head around is why all the metallic dragons are comparatively better than the chromatic dragons).
Altough wotc never directly says it, the reason for that is because the forces of evil are simply much more numerous. One of the sample gold wyrms is precisely described as being unable to deal with new red dragons faster than they're being hatched by his enemies. Same for outsiders, a Solar can wipe out the floor with a Balor. But there's infinite amount of Balors out there, and a finite number of Solars. And then there's also Pit Fiends and Tarrasques and plenty of other evil CR 20 enemies ready to wreck havoc.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 05:21:38 PM by oslecamo »

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4241
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2014, 05:21:09 PM »
Because Wizards wants to pretend Good > Evil while giving Evil all the cool stuff?

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2014, 05:26:33 PM »
Mostly that they're the best spellcasters, largest, and all around have the most stat bloat.
Lolwhut? :psyduck

Dragons are quite lagging behind in spellcasting.  There are monsters out there that are actually fullcasters, and they have even more bloated mental scores than dragons. There are even monsters that have faster spellcasting progression than fullcasters of the same CR.

How the hell are they relevant to a comparison of dragons? :P

I was comparing red dragons to, say, the rest of the Chromatic Dragons. And it's not just mental scores. The only thing they have below 20 in the end is dexterity. XD

Well, there's a few even worse things in the EHB, I'll admit. But they never seem to come up much...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 05:28:57 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline Hades

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 118
  • Stop Time, Thou art so beautiful!
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2014, 08:20:36 PM »
About Dragon and spellcasting... I think that one of the best thing is treating them as "gishes".

Imho every dragon should know blood wind. Wraitstrike is another very nice spell for a dragon. Scintillating Scales is another "given".

One of the weak points for a dragon is their low initiative, due to their low Dex. So Improved Initiative is one of the feats that every dragon should have, imho.

And about initiative, the spell Primal Instinct is another great one for any dragon.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2014, 09:39:07 PM »
Arigato Soro Sempai!

Eerr, sorry, been watching a bit too much anime today. But that's definetely gonna save me a LOT of boring writing, so thanks again.
lol, np. Realmshelp even partially handled Skills for you. So it's just theme fitting rounding out really, you know the more creative side of things.

To pull the full list should by name/type, 'D' and 'Dragon'.

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2014, 05:26:55 AM »
About Dragon and spellcasting... I think that one of the best thing is treating them as "gishes".

Imho every dragon should know blood wind. Wraitstrike is another very nice spell for a dragon. Scintillating Scales is another "given".

One of the weak points for a dragon is their low initiative, due to their low Dex. So Improved Initiative is one of the feats that every dragon should have, imho.

And about initiative, the spell Primal Instinct is another great one for any dragon.
I had already added Scintillating Scales, wraithstrike, Improved Intiative plus nerveskitter and some Warding weapon equipment. Also Wings of Cover. Primal Instinct looks like another nice thing to add.

But bloodwind is a trap. It only allows you to make one attack with one natural weapon, which is completely counterproductive to a dragon.

EDIT: An first 4 blue dragons are in.

Trivia, Realmshelps dragons have several wrong numbers. The blue dragon wyrmling for example is listed as CR 2 and with a DC 13 breath weapon, nevermind that he has 6 HD and +1 Con bonus.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 07:17:43 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Hades

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 118
  • Stop Time, Thou art so beautiful!
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2014, 08:29:18 AM »
Not the Spell Compendium version.

http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/blood-wind--3975/

The subject can take a full attack action to use all of its natural weapons

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10708
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2014, 11:48:51 AM »
One of the problems with dragons using Antimagic Field is that the largest ones (colossal for sure, maybe even gargantuan) won't even fit inside the area of their spell without Widening it, if you go with a strict RAW interpretation of how the area works. I think a better interpretation/houserule is for the radius to start at the edge of the creature's space (but still include them), but RAW it is centered on a specific corner of the map. So even the huge dragon might find it tricky to use AMF offensively, as only one side of the area will extend past the dragon's own body space.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline Hades

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 118
  • Stop Time, Thou art so beautiful!
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 05:26:21 AM »
It's the same issue of "the tarrasque can't use darkvision to see its own feet".

I 100% agree that's a viable house rule, not only for AMF, but for all spells with an area that emanates from the caster.

About Breath Weapon Admixture I've a question. Is the additional damage modified by metabreath feats? "raw" damage may not be the most optimized thing, but if metabreath applies, a great wyrm red dragon able to deal 240 sonic damage in a round is not bad.

(I'm not counting the fire damage portion, since I think that every group worth of its salt will cast a few protections against fire damage, against a red dragon)

Offline ZhonLord

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2014, 07:50:12 AM »
When you get to "Plots and Personalities", make sure to mention Xorvintaal.  I brought it up already in the thread about making dragons more impressive, but it really is a wonderful storytelling tool for anything dragon-related.

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2014, 03:14:32 PM »
Well, seems like I'll need to make a new post for each kind of dragon due to post character limit. More Blue dragons are in, next are Brass ones.

Not the Spell Compendium version.

http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/blood-wind--3975/

The subject can take a full attack action to use all of its natural weapons
Ah, thanks, then that's indeed quite a nice pick for dragon 1st level spells!

One of the problems with dragons using Antimagic Field is that the largest ones (colossal for sure, maybe even gargantuan) won't even fit inside the area of their spell without Widening it, if you go with a strict RAW interpretation of how the area works. I think a better interpretation/houserule is for the radius to start at the edge of the creature's space (but still include them), but RAW it is centered on a specific corner of the map. So even the huge dragon might find it tricky to use AMF offensively, as only one side of the area will extend past the dragon's own body space.
Meh, huge and bigger dragons have Crush attacks, thus they can just fill the same space as puny humanoids to submit them to AMF.

About Breath Weapon Admixture I've a question. Is the additional damage modified by metabreath feats? "raw" damage may not be the most optimized thing, but if metabreath applies, a great wyrm red dragon able to deal 240 sonic damage in a round is not bad.

(I'm not counting the fire damage portion, since I think that every group worth of its salt will cast a few protections against fire damage, against a red dragon)
I believe yes. But to pull that off, you'll need a dragon at epic levels, so probably the party is simply resistant/immune to all elements by then.

When you get to "Plots and Personalities", make sure to mention Xorvintaal.  I brought it up already in the thread about making dragons more impressive, but it really is a wonderful storytelling tool for anything dragon-related.
Will do.