Author Topic: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread  (Read 12843 times)

Offline Nytemare3701

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Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« on: May 08, 2012, 10:59:54 AM »
Discuss Dipping here.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5003.msg71200#msg71200

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« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 11:28:32 AM by Nytemare3701 »

Offline Mushroom

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2012, 12:06:45 PM »
Warblade's 'Int to Ref' should mention that it is keyed to class level

Offline gorfnab

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 03:12:52 PM »
Barbarian can also get you Whirling Frenzy (UA), Improved Unarmed Strike and Two Weapon Fighting (City Brawler Drg#349). A second level of Barbarian can get you Improved Grapple (Bear Totem, UA)

A level of Druid can get you Rage and Fast Movement (Druidic Avenger UA); monk AC bonus, Favored Enemy, and Track (Simple, UA).

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 07:12:29 PM »
Added. Time to go back to the original thread to keep adding.

Offline Talore

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 08:50:17 PM »
Fighter NEEDS Exoticist mentioned. +4 exotic weapon proficiencies essentially for free (the only drawback is you have to take a player's handbook bonus feat, really). Also you can trade tower shield proficiency for an exotic shield proficiency, and there is a variant in the back of a dragon magazine (don't have the number in my head) that replaces your 1st level feat for the supernatural ability to treat all armour worn as one category lighter, which can be relevant (especially for certain gishes)

Sohei gets you Weapon Focus (any) and a whirling frenzy-like ability 1/day.

Ranger is a 2-level dip for rapid shot (and maybe TWF) that gets you skills, favoured enemy (arcanist) and track. Not irrelevant.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 08:52:15 PM by Talore »
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Offline gorfnab

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 10:24:09 PM »
Soul Eater (BoVD) - 1 negative level to anything everytime you touch them

Sacred Exorcist (CD) - Turn Undead

Beastmaster (CAdv) - Animal Companion as effective Druid level 4 (7 if you take the Natural bond feat)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 10:32:29 PM by gorfnab »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2012, 01:03:46 AM »
Ranger 1 (or 2) is good for skillmonkeys: The trapfinding variant, plus access to wands from a good spell list, and TWF if you go for 2 levels.
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Offline Talore

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2012, 03:18:52 AM »
Soul Eater (BoVD) - 1 negative level to anything everytime you touch them
I just looked this up again... and dear god is that ridiculous. There is absolutely no save allowed on the negative level. It is trivially easy to get into the class too, with the plethora of non-humanoid LA+0 races available.
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Offline Empirate

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2012, 06:40:50 PM »
Cloistered Cleric and Conjurer can be considered great 1-level dips for martial characters.

Cloistered Cleric is good for skillmonkeys AND martial builds actually - skillpoints, cleric scroll/wand use, three domains (all exchangeable for devotions, especially Knowledge Devotion), Turn Undead for fuelling Divine and Devotion feats... all great stuff, and maybe surprisingly, tremendously useful for many melee or ranged builds. This is a must for Swift Hunters, for example (take Travel Devotion).

Conjurer is even less obvious, but a short look at the Abrupt Jaunt alternate class feature will dispel all doubts. Can't take a full attack anymore? Wanna charge again? Better not to be hit by that Enervation/Ray of Enfeeblement/etc.? Wanna flank but can't tumble due to terrain? Wanna activate skirmish? Wanna bypass that wall/AoO machine/Forcecage/grappling Kraken? Abrupt Jaunt does all that and more. Also, scroll/wand use, +2 to Will saves, and a nice 1st level spell or three, all good for warrior builds.

Other stuff:
Binder is good for all kinds of things (proficiencies, skills, immunities, special attack and movement forms...), not only for Naberius' ability damage healing.

Shadow Adept is a good dip, but it's not utility, it's strictly for arcane casting IMO. Excellent for Illusionists, Shadowcraft Mages, Beguilers... Another good one-level dip for much the same classes is Nightmare Spinner.

Sandshaper adds a ton of spells for spontaneous and fixed-spell-list casters.

Spellthief with the Master Spellthief feat is interesting in some arcane multiclass builds (e.g. Ultimate Magus).

Warlock is interesting for a powerful 24h self buff: See the Unseen gives Darkvision and See Invisibility; Entropic Warding makes you untraceable; Beguiling Influence grants +6 to three Cha-based skills; Spiderclimb at will is just hilarious mobility. Alternately, Baleful Utterance for Shatter at will plus possible dazing is amazing utility into the mid levels.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 06:43:29 PM by Empirate »

Offline Endarire

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2012, 08:05:43 PM »
Swordsage gets you 6 maneuvers known, 4 readied, 1 stance known (possibly of level 1 only), Weapon Focus in a single discipline, and +1 initiative.

Arguably, if you take Swordsage1 at level 1, you get x6 skill points!

Wow!

Swordsage2 gets you another stance known, another maneuver known, and your WIS bonus to AC in light armor.  (Probably should also work in no armor.)

Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2012, 02:18:16 AM »
Heartfire Fanner appears to have similar text to the Warrior Skald in regards to Bardic Music.
Should they not also get all bardic musics?
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2012, 12:45:53 PM »
Heartfire Fanner appears to have similar text to the Warrior Skald in regards to Bardic Music.
Should they not also get all bardic musics?

"Class levels stack with Bardic Music ability. If you have no levels in Bard, you function as a 5th lvl Bard."

Offline Cannotthink

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2012, 01:01:00 PM »
Dragon #340 has a substitution level for Ranger that gives a bonus to AC equal to your Wis modifier while wearing light armor or no armor in exchange for your combat style at level 2. Should stack with the monk or swordsage armor bonus for the wise warrior.

It could also be noted that the wildshape ranger out of Unearthed Arcana gets you fast movement at level 1 at the loss of combat style starting at level 2. So, anyone looking for just one level of ranger could do that to get something for nothing.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:06:05 PM by Cannotthink »

Offline Cannotthink

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2012, 01:20:19 PM »
there is a variant in the back of a dragon magazine (don't have the number in my head) that replaces your 1st level feat for the supernatural ability to treat all armour worn as one category lighter, which can be relevant (especially for certain gishes)

Dragon 355. It kind of treats armor as a category lighter. You ignore the weight, can move as if it were one category lighter, have an increased max dex bonus, and halve arcane spell failure chance. The last part is helpful for eliminating spell failure in twilight mithral full-plate armor.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2012, 12:56:16 AM »
First, the link to this thread in the handbook is broken.

Secondly: If Mariner is worth dipping for EWP: net, Rokugan Ninja is worth a mention as well. Full BAB, +1d6 sneak attack, counts as having dodge for prereqs, and gets proficiency with: Katana (Bastard Sword), Shuriken, Blowgun, Spiked Chain and Kusari-gama(a 1 handed spiked chain, stats in the DMG.) It also has a full slate of social skills including Perform, which is required for a few decent Prcs and is tough to find on full BAB classes.

The section on dipping wizard in a martial build probably wants to mention the fighter bonus feat variant. Martial characters are going to enjoy a Fighter feat a great deal more than Scribe Scroll.

Pious Templar from Complete Divine grants Mettle at 1st lv. Not an awesome class but I think it's the only dip that gets you that ability.

Warshaper could also go in the 2 level section. +4 to str and con is something few melee types will want to pass up.

Barbarian2 gets you Improved Trip from the Wolf Totem. It bypasses prereqs so not only is it good for builds that want to dump int, it saves a feat for builds that don't much care about Combat Expertise.

Prestige Paladin is a solid Divine Dip. Advances casting and you get Paladin spells on your list which gives some unique spells and some level discounts. It's most powerful in combination with Battle Blessing for swift action spells but it's worth a mention even without that. 2nd level loses caster progression but grants the rest of the abilities of Paladin5. Probably not worth it, but if you need Divine Grace, or a magic horse for some reason...

Factotum and Human Paragon could be worth a mention as Skillmonkey Dips. They both give you access to any skill you want in slightly different ways, HP lets you keep one skill as in class forever, and Factotum gives you your int as a bonus on attack, damage, or a save for 2 rolls an encounter. Human Paragon2 gets you spellcasting progression and a bonus feat.

In Utility Dips, Dragonfire Adept could go in for basically the same reasons as Warlock with a couple of unique Invocations. Esp Draconic Knowledge. +6 to all Knowledge checks all day is much fun for anyone with Knowlegde Devotion.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 01:59:57 AM by Concerned Ninja Citizen »

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2012, 07:10:00 AM »
DAMNIT. I just spent an hour adding all the stuff in here, then accidentally mouse-bumped off the page. Now I have to start over  :bigeyes

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2012, 03:53:05 AM »
Under Utility dips you might want to add Dragonfire Adept for the same reason as Warlock, plus other things like Entangling Exhalation.  Class is found in Dragon Magic.

Edit:  Lol, I didn't see CNC had posted that too...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 11:23:24 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2012, 03:50:48 AM »
This handbook is officially low-priority for me now, behind the SCM spellbook and the current campaign I'm DMing. Expect updates to be agonizingly slow.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2012, 10:25:52 AM »
Under Utility dips you might want to add Dragonfire Adept for the same reason as Warlock, plus other things like Entangling Exhalation.  Class is found in Dragon Magic.

Edit:  Lol, I didn't see CNC had posted that too...

You contributed Breath Weapon/Entangling Exhalation which I hadn't thought of as a dip ability. It'd be a fun option for giving a character BFC out of nowhere.

This handbook is officially low-priority for me now, behind the SCM spellbook and the current campaign I'm DMing. Expect updates to be agonizingly slow.

Would you be interested in having someone take it over or help with upkeep?

Also, I just remembered Master of Masks. 1 level gets you proficiency in all exotic weapons and a +1 to attack to make up for the 3/4 BAB. Other masks provide various minor abilities and you get 2 at lv1.

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Dipping Mini-Handbook Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2012, 10:32:50 AM »
Would you be interested in having someone take it over or help with upkeep?

Also, I just remembered Master of Masks. 1 level gets you proficiency in all exotic weapons and a +1 to attack to make up for the 3/4 BAB. Other masks provide various minor abilities and you get 2 at lv1.

Honestly, if I find the time for a formatting pass it'll be a lot easier to keep up with the new stuff. BAB/Saves/Casting Progression should be shown for each class, so people can disqualify dips based on basic needs, then go from there.

I'll probably do it today, depends on how I'm feeling and if my shoulders act up from the cold.

EDIT: I started on it. I'm a little burned out though, so I'm going to stop for today.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 01:23:05 PM by Nytemare3701 »