Author Topic: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers  (Read 15900 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2015, 09:23:41 PM »
Sounds like someone talking about how he thinks he's better than the grease monkeys that fix up his car. Then after starting on making his hot rod he comes to realize that there is a lot of knowledge and effort required.

I wonder what's satisfying to people about saving their characters with plot armor instead of through their own choices.
Wow. That needs sig'd

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2015, 10:12:55 AM »
I probably made someone's .txt thread for that because it's anti-fun for actions to have consequences in a game.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2015, 11:22:49 AM »
Yes, the idea of having protection against bad luck is totally unreasonable. Any ability to alter the outcome of dice rolls after the fact is clearly terrible.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 11:27:30 AM by Raineh Daze »

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2015, 11:28:13 AM »
I'm pretty sure we're in agreement that luck protection is good and the disagreement is in how it's accomplished.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2015, 02:05:18 PM »
I don't even get what your position is, because you've somehow turned 'this doesn't screw you over' into 'this mechanic means people are shielded from any consequences'.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2015, 02:38:27 PM »
My position is:

I'm ok with things like inspiration and action points that let you deal with the luck of the d20.  You still have to choose a course of action that has some likelihood of succeeding.  I've said in previous posts I use these mechanics in my games and like them.  I have described a type of player protection I do not like without naming a specific one.

I don't like things that would let a player walk in front of a firing squad, get hit several times lethally, and then say "it is not yet my time, I live."

e: basically no player-invoked deus ex machina, does that make more sense?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 02:41:57 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2015, 02:45:59 PM »
Eh, the only system that sounds like (from my experience) is the 40k example, and if you do stupid things, you're going to run out pretty soon. It's easy enough to die anyway.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2015, 02:56:46 PM »
The other 5e DM in my local store uses the Plot Points variant rule in the DMG.  His group routinely does things like piss off large organizations, get into a losing fight, and then plot point a way to live, or stuff like a champion fighter jumping off the top of a tower at level 2 with no magic items and spending his plot point to say he lives.  He didn't even give a reason why he lived, he just said he did.  The game has devolved into everyone trolling each other at the table because their plot points can save them, and I guess it's fun for them, but I'd never want my own games to turn into that.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2015, 03:00:10 PM »
They sound like they'd play Paranoia the instant they saw the book.

Offline bhu

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2015, 05:24:31 PM »
The other 5e DM in my local store uses the Plot Points variant rule in the DMG.  His group routinely does things like piss off large organizations, get into a losing fight, and then plot point a way to live, or stuff like a champion fighter jumping off the top of a tower at level 2 with no magic items and spending his plot point to say he lives.  He didn't even give a reason why he lived, he just said he did.  The game has devolved into everyone trolling each other at the table because their plot points can save them, and I guess it's fun for them, but I'd never want my own games to turn into that.

Have you considered the fault lies less i nthe game mechanics and more in the fact that the players sound like impulsive, immature shit flingers?

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2015, 09:03:54 PM »
The other 5e DM in my local store uses the Plot Points variant rule in the DMG.  His group routinely does things like piss off large organizations, get into a losing fight, and then plot point a way to live, or stuff like a champion fighter jumping off the top of a tower at level 2 with no magic items and spending his plot point to say he lives.  He didn't even give a reason why he lived, he just said he did.  The game has devolved into everyone trolling each other at the table because their plot points can save them, and I guess it's fun for them, but I'd never want my own games to turn into that.

Have you considered the fault lies less i nthe game mechanics and more in the fact that the players sound like impulsive, immature shit flingers?

You are correct.

I'm running my game in the store because it's owned by a friend and I want to help his business, so some of my group are new players who I have little personal experience with.  The goal is to draw new players to the hobby with 5e's accessibility.  I did not want to set any bad precedents for the players, so I did not use plot points or any similar mechanics.  I am using inspiration and action points so they are not completely at the whims of dice RNG.  So far, my group is cooperative with one another and they do not intentionally do stupid things.  Maybe they're just decent people or maybe they realize there's no "get out of jail free" cards if they act like goofs.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2015, 09:05:03 PM »
The other 5e DM in my local store uses the Plot Points variant rule in the DMG.  His group routinely does things like piss off large organizations, get into a losing fight, and then plot point a way to live, or stuff like a champion fighter jumping off the top of a tower at level 2 with no magic items and spending his plot point to say he lives.  He didn't even give a reason why he lived, he just said he did.  The game has devolved into everyone trolling each other at the table because their plot points can save them, and I guess it's fun for them, but I'd never want my own games to turn into that.

Have you considered the fault lies less i nthe game mechanics and more in the fact that the players sound like impulsive, immature shit flingers?

You are correct.

I'm running my game in the store because it's owned by a friend and I want to help his business, so some of my group are new players who I have little personal experience with.  The goal is to draw new players to the hobby with 5e's accessibility.  I did not want to set any bad precedents for the players, so I did not use those rules.  So far, my group is cooperative with one another and they do not intentionally do stupid things.  Maybe they're just decent people or maybe they realize there's no "get out of jail free" card if they act like goofs.

I'm going to go with 'the game's more serious, so they're TAKING it more seriously', rather than flinging wild judgements about rule mechanics or whether people are idiots. :rolleyes

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2015, 09:12:27 PM »
The content of our roleplay is decidedly not serious, but the challenges are.  Whatever their motivation is for taking the game seriously, they haven't been given a way to act like idiots, and they have been given 2 forms of luck protection.  As a DM, I feel it's my job to create the kind of playing environment I want to see, and I've offered my opinion on why I think plot points and similar mechanics do a disservice to my type of game.  I'm not personally attacking you by disagreeing.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2015, 09:17:17 PM »
My problem is that you're ascribing what you're seeing to a single variable. A single variable, in a single group: I disagree with the conclusion that these things cause people to do stupid things, because I've played with them, and people don't do stupid things any more often than they would anyway.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2015, 09:21:41 PM »
Cool.  Do your thing.  I will continue to not enable the behavior because I can't rely on hoping everyone will be mature when I take on strangers for my local store's sake.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2015, 09:25:42 PM »
What.

5E doesn't really need it, and it's an optional rule, so I can see not including it. But treating that as 'enabling' behaviour? People are going to be stupid whether or not you make them invulnerable to the consequences. That terminology... :???

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2015, 04:07:00 PM »
I've seen a few 5e games at my semi-local game store
where people are counting with their fingers !!
Totally math-alexic and yet contributing to the game.
Even the great-unwashed wanna play some d&d.

3.Xe goes:  a cleric , a druid, a wizard and a math-alexic walk into a bar and ... wait wait stop me if you've heard this one before.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2015, 05:04:23 PM »
I don't know, how much math is involved with Solid Fog and various other "I win!" god wizard staples?