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Creative Corner => New Mechanics and Subsystems => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft => Topic started by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 03:22:43 PM

Title: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 03:22:43 PM
Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
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"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance." - Confucius

Amateurs think that fighting is about passion, and strength. They roar defiance and charge into battle headlong, as if their enemies were grains of wheat waiting to be reaped. The farmer defending his land against goblins wields his father's rusty sword, and is a danger to himself as much as his opponent.

Veteran soldiers know that skill and cooler heads usually prevail. They see combat as a science, prescribing a set of rules by which one can cut down one's aggressors. They train new recruits and each other, and seek out battle less frequently - the bloodthirsty are usually the first to fall.

True masters of bladecraft understand that swordwork is an art, not a science. It is a dance, an ebb and flow, like sailing a ship through a razor-sharp reef on stormy seas. Each duel is different - a deadly game of feint and counterattack, parry and riposte. The interplay is as beautiful as it is (often) fatal.

The optional rules presented here give players and DMs a means of creating a master of the blade.

Table of Contents
Introduction, Mechanics, & Skills
Feats & Blade-bound Substitution Levels
Blade Styles & Techniques (Basic)
Blade Styles & Techniques (Moderate)
Blade Styles & Techniques (Advanced)
Blade Styles & Techniques (Expert)
Prestige Classes I
Prestige Classes II
Equipment & other materials


The Bladecraft Subsystem
Bladecraft is a subsystem for martial characters, designed to evoke the elaborate and complex dueling tactics used by famous swordsmen throughout history and literature. Examples from recent fiction include the Blademasters from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series (which is the explicit inspiration for the thematics of Bladecraft), the swordsmen of Ironhall from Dave Duncan's King's Blades series, and the Ademre Ketan from Patrick Rothfuss's Kingkiller Chronicles trilogy.

The core D&D mechanics for melee combat are built around combat feats, which produce relatively repetitive combat rounds for melee characters with few meaningful options. The Tome of Battle supplement worked to alleviate this problem by introducing Initiator mechanics, a martial analogue to Spellcasting comprised of discrete maneuvers with extraordinary effects, based around a core of combat. While the material described in the Book of Nine Swords is an interesting and well-designed subsystem, and opens up a wealth of new options for martial characters, many players disliked the "blade magic"/"wuxia" feeling of the system. It echoed too strongly of "spellcasting-for-fighters", and did little to improve the poor options for core classes, opting instead for replacement.

The Bladecraft system presented here, in contrast, is a direct amplification of the core classes. While Initiators can learn blade techniques just like any other martial characters, they rarely do so, since maneuvers and blade techniques compete for the limited resources in the action economy. Instead, the lowly Fighter is the consummate student of Bladecraft, and can still complement the blade techniques with combat feats which were its original strength.

Bladecraft is an expansion, not a replacement. It is accessible to every class: any character who wishes to participate in melee combat can learn blade techniques by investing skill points in the Bladecraft skill (detailed below). The tag sustem also provides a unique set of mechanics and options, turning each combat encounter from an endless stream of full attacks into an organic and fluid interplay between attacker and defender.

Blade Techniques
The primary components of Bladecraft are known as "blade techniques". A blade technique is some useful bit of combat prowess, which can be used to attack, defend, or simply carry oneself in day-to-day life. Note that while the word "blade" is incorporated heavily into the description and mechanics of Bladecraft, it is not restricted to swords or other bladed weapons - with some exceptions (see the section on Tags, below) any melee weapon can be wielded when using blade techniques (though some weapons will be more effective for certain techniques than others).

While blade techniques bear some similarities to martial maneuvers and stances, the philosophical approach to battle between Initiators and masters of Bladecraft is quite different. An initiator sees each round of combat as a discrete unit, and has a number of specific actions that they can take in a given situation. While it is relatively easy to change between different sets of maneuvers, in a given encounter an initiator has access to only a small subset of the maneuvers they know.

In contrast, a student of bladecraft views combat as a continuous progression, flowing from one to the next in an unbroken chain. The blademaster has access to every blade technique they know at all times, but the available techniques in any given instant are determined by the techniques used earlier in the encounter.

While some techniques are particularly effective or ineffective against an opponent who is also using blade techniques, all are quite effective against "unskilled" opponents (i.e., those not trained in Bladecraft). Techniques come in three types:Bladecraft in its entirety is as useful for defense as for offense. The skilled practitioner of Bladecraft will use a variety of Forms, Assaults, and Parries in combat, for to be predictable is to have a very short career as a Blademaster.

Learning Techniques & Complexity
Each blade technique has a certain "complexity", which is a measure of how difficult it is to learn and execute. Technique complexity comes in four categories. Basic techniques are the easiest and simplest, and are the first techniques that any student of Bladecraft learns. Techniques of Moderate complexity are more difficult; learning a Moderate technique requires a Base Attack Bonus of +6, 9 ranks in Bladecraft, and knowlede of at least eight Basic techniques.

Advanced techniques are the product of hundreds of hours of effort and training, and are the mark of a Blademaster - casual students of Bladecraft almost never master even a single Advanced technique. Learning one require a Base Attack Bonus of +11, 14 ranks in Bladecraft, and knowledge of at least eight Moderate techniques.

The true pinnacles of Bladecraft spend years of dedication to their art, training against groups of lesser Blademasters, armies of students, and even horrifying beasts to develop and comprehend Expert techniques. Each Expert technique requires a Base Attack Bonus of +16 or higher, 19 ranks in Bladecraft, and knowledge of at least eight Advanced techniques to learn.

To learn blade techniques, a character must have proficiency in at least one martial weapon, and must have at least 1 rank in Bladecraft. A character who wishes to study Bladecraft can learn 4 blade techniques with Basic complexity when their Base Attack Bonus is at least +1, and may learn another technique at every level at which their Base Attack Bonus increases. Additional techniques may be acquired through feats, substitution levels, or by gaining levels in prestige classes; these means are all described in the relevant sections below.

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While anyone can become a student of Bladecraft regardless of age or experience, those who begin earlier in their career achieve greater heights than those who start later in life. A character who takes their first rank in Bladecraft when their Base Attack Bonus higher than +1 learns 4 Basic techniques, but does not retroactively learn techniques for previously-gained levels in which their Base Attack Bonus increased.

It is recommended that the first four techniques a student of Bladecraft learns include at least one Form, one Assault, and one Parry. However, the only absolute requirement is that one of the four must be a Form; otherwise, the student would not be able to use any other blade techniques, due to tag requirement(s) (see below for details).

Blade Styles
Blade techniques of a given complexity are grouped by theme and methodology into collections called Blade Styles. Initially developed as a learning tool, Blade Styles help shape a combatant's decision-making process during a battle, allowing a student to focus on a group of synergistic techniques. However, while these are somewhat similar in concept to Martial Disciplines, there are no restrictions other than complexity on the Blade Styles from which a character can learn techniques.

Blademasters can and usually do switch seamlessly between styles with little difficulty as combat evolves around them. While an outsider might expect each Blade Style to be a self-contained unit, this could not be further from the truth. Blade Styles are a grouping of convenience, and allow Bladecraft teachers to present related concepts as a coherent curriculum. However, each style is not meant to be learned in isolation, but rather to be part of an elegant whole. The ultimate Blademaster knows every blade technique, rather than mastering a particular style to the exclusion of all else. A Blademaster who is not versatile, who cannot change tactics on a moment's notice, soon becomes a dead Blademaster.

Bladecraft Tags
Every Blade technique (even a simple one) involves an intricate interplay of combat elements: the combatant's muscles, the weapon and how it is held, the direction and momentum of the body, limbs, and weapon, and how all of these relate to the same factors describing the opponent. Most of these interactions happen below the level of conscious thought, having been trained into a student's habits and instincts. Such training is the essence of Bladecraft: one must transform a slow decision-making process into a fast, evolving dance.

Most blade techniques can only be used when the combatant's combat elements satisfy certain conditions (for example, a powerful downward blow cannot be made when the tip of the combatant's sword is pointed at the opponent's ankle), and the process of using a technique changes the existing combat elements to some new configuration.

From a mechanics standpoint, these factors are encapsulated in a system called "tags". A tag is a description of some aspect of stance or action related to the use of a blade technique. Most techniques requires the user to have some number of tags ("required tags"), which are determined by the previous events in the encounter. Every technique also grants tags upon completion ("granted tags"), which reflect the type of actions (i.e., other techniques) that can follow organically, without disrupting the dance.

The only requirement for a known technique to be used is that the technique's required tags be currently granted to the combatant. Extra tags are never detrimental; however, some techniques have additional effects if the combatant has been granted specific tags beyond the required ones when using them. See the individual blade technique descriptions, below, for details. Note that tags are descriptive, not prescriptive - any specific requirements to use a technique, or specific mechanical effects of using a technique, are specified in the actual technique description.

Tags are divided into four types, based on what combat element they describe. A technique can require a maximum of one tag of each type; however, the number of total tags required or granted by the technique is determined by its complexity. Basic techniques require or grant a single tag, while Moderate, Advanced, and Expert techniques require or grant two, three, or four tags, respectively, at the same time. (Form techniques sometimes grant more or fewer tags; see the description of Forms below, and the individual technique descriptions, for details.)

Gesture tags ([Bash], [Slash], and [Thrust]) describe the type of action that a technique will involve.Hand tags ([Cleave], [Rend], and [Sheath]) refer to the way the combatant grips the weapon.Motion tags ([Circle], [Spin], and [Stand]) designate how the combatant moves their entire body as part of the technique.Finally, Position tags ([High], [Low], and[ Middle]) indicate the starting (for required tags) or ending (for granted tags) position of the weapon, with respect to the wielder, the target, or both.Using Blade Techniques in Combat
For a student or master of Bladecraft, combat is a far more complex beast than a common soldier. Attack, defense, stance, and movement all flow from one to the next, reacting to circumstance and optimizing advantage. While this can be complicated for someone new to Bladecraft to track and utilize, the graduated nature of technique complexity is designed to acclimate a combatant to the system slowly. Note: it is recommended that players new to Bladecraft begin at relatively low level, with Basic techniques, to get used to the system.

Unless otherwise specified, blade techniques are extraordinary abilities, which do not require particular concentration or patience to use (e.g., a barbarian can use blade techniques while raging). However, techniques cannot be used while a combatant is helpless or unconscious.

A student of Bladecraft generally enters a Form at the beginning of the day. Whenever you enter a Form (as a swift action), you remain in that Form until you choose to leave it (even once the encounter ends), or change to a new Form. Changing Forms requires a swift action, and you can change into any Form you know at any time. Each Form grants some benefit, as well as one or more tags. The granted tags determine which of the techniques you know are available to you at any given moment, by identifying Assaults and Parries with the required tags that you have been granted. Whenever you enter a new Form, you lose all previously granted tags and benefits in favor of those granted by the new Form.

When you use an Assault or Parry, all tags you had been granted by your current Form, or the previous techniques you had used, are replaced by a new set of tags granted by that technique, possibly with some overlap from the previous set. These new tags determine the techniques you can use after, and so forth. However, you retain the benefits of your most recent Form until changing to a new Form (or until you no longer qualify for that Form, as detailed in the individual Form descriptions below). If you haven't used any techniques since the end of your last turn, you return to your most recent Form at the end of your turn, replacing any existing tags with the tags granted by that Form.

Quote from: An Example Combat
While traveling, Durendal has been in Cat Crossing the Courtyard (a Basic Form from Wax style), carrying a shield on his arm. When his party is ambushed by an ogre, he begins the encounter in that Form, and so is granted the [Sheath] tag. His party is surprised, but during the surprise round, Durendal uses Unfolding the Fan (a Basic Assault from Wax style) to attack the ogre, and loses the [Sheath] tag, replaced by the granted tag of Unfolding the Fan, [Thrust]. When the ogre tries to attack him, Durendal uses The Falcon Stoops (a Basic Parry from Wood style) to damage the ogre, and replaces the [Thrust] tag with [Rend].

On Durendal's turn during the first full round, he has the [Rend] tag, and so uses The Serpent Strikes (a Basic Assault from Wood style), keeping the [Rend] tag and knocking the ogre out. The threat seems to be past, but he is wary, and switches to The Bear Sleeps in Winter (a Basic Form from Cloud style), losing [Rend] and gaining [Stand].

When the ogre's companions, a pair of wolves enraged by the loss of their protector, leap from the trees and surprise the party, Durendal uses Skipping Stones on the Shore (a Basic Parry from Cloud style) to raise his AC against the wolf that attacks him. He exchanges [Stand] for [Slash], and when it's his turn again, he uses Parting the Silk (a Basic Assault from Wax style) against his aggressor, losing [Slash] and gaining [Low]. If the combat continues, he could use Low Wind Rising to change his Form; or, if the wolves seemed likely to flee, he could make a Bladecraft check when using Parting the Silk to retain the [Slash] tag, so that he could use Twisting Weasel against the retreating animal.

The Bladecraft Skill

Bladecraft is a skill, as well as a subsystem. Many blade techniques grant bonus Bladecraft dice to attack rolls, damage rolls, or other situations; the size of a "Bladecraft die" (which may be more than one physical die) is determined by your ranks in the Bladecraft skill.

Bladecraft (Int; Trained Only)
You can learn blade techniques, and can use this skill to identify blade techniques as they are being used.

Whenever the effect of a blade technique you use depends on Bladecraft dice, the number of ranks you have in Bladecraft determine the type of dice you roll, as shown on the following table. Bladecraft dice gained as a bonus to damage are not multiplied on a critical hit. The progression of Bladecraft dice continues in the same way beyond 36 ranks. Multiple sources of Bladecraft dice on the same roll stack.
Ranks
Bladecraft Dice
1-4
1d4
5-8
1d6
9-12
1d8
13-16
1d4+1d6
17-20
1d6+1d6
21-24
1d8+1d6
25-28
1d4+2d6
29-32
1d6+2d6
33-36
1d8+2d6

Check: You can identify combat styles and sword techniques used by a combatant. Identifying a blade technique used by someone you can see requires no action, and the DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the user's base attack bonus (rounded down, minimum +0). Identifying the current form someone is in requires no action, and the DC is equal to 20 + 1/2 the user's base attack bonus (rounded down, minimum +0).

You can also make a Bladecraft check when using a technique to retain a previously granted tag. If the technique would have granted a tag of the same type as the tag you are retaining, the retained tag replaces the tag you would have been granted. If the technique does not grant a tag of the same type, you retain the tag in addition to the new tags granted by the technique. The base DC for retaining a tag is 15, +3 for each tag the technique normally grants, -2 if the technique would have granted a tag of the same type. Note that, as this use of the Bladecraft skill is always in combat, you may not take 10 when attempting to retain a granted tag.

Action: None
Try Again: Yes
Special: You gain a +2 bonus on Bladecraft checks to identify a technique or form that you know.
Special: Any character with at least 1 rank in Bladecraft has the ability to learn blade techniques.
Synergy: You gain a +2 synergy bonus to Bladecraft checks for each of the following skills in which you have at least 5 ranks: Autohypnosis, Knowledge (History), or Martial Lore. If you have 5 or more ranks in Bladecraft, you gain a +2 synergy bonus to Concentration, Knowledge (History), and Martial Lore checks.
Note: Bladecraft is a class skill for any class which has full Base Attack Bonus progression.

Skill Tricks
The following skill tricks can be learned and used in the usual way; see Complete Scoundrel for in-depth rules on skill tricks.

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Bladecraft Resources
What follows is a variety of material which can be used to incorporate the Bladecraft subsystem into your D&D world. The next post contains a set of feats for students of Bladecraft, as well as substitution levels for many published classes which integrate Bladecraft into their existing mechanics.

The following four posts detail the 16 standard Blade Styles and their associated techniques. Several prestige classes for practitioners of Bladecraft take up the two successive posts, and the final post includes some equipment, magic items, and other materials which any student of Bladecraft may find useful.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 03:22:55 PM
Feats & Blade-bound Substitution Levels

"When the sword is once drawn, the passions of men observe no bounds of moderation." - Alexander Hamilton

Bladecraft Feats
A fighter may select [Bladecraft] feats with their Fighter bonus feats; you must still meet the prerequisites of any feat you select.

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Stay tuned for Blade-bound substitution levels!
Title: Sword Techniques I
Post by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 03:23:09 PM
Blade Styles and Techniques (Basic)
The four Blade Styles described here are all of Basic complexity. Techniques from these styles can be learned by any character who can learn Bladecraft techniques. Required or granted tags are presented in the following order: Gesture, Hand, Motion, Position.

Cloud Style
The Cloud style has Basic complexity. Similar in philosophy to a number of training regimes developed for light infantry, Cloud style is often the first taste of Bladecraft to which veteran soldiers are introduced. Many of the techniques can be used with a spear as easily as a sword, and involve standing with feet planted, thrusting the weapon at an approaching opponent's vulnerable areas around the face and neck. Cloud style is especially useful when setting an ambush.

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Leaf Style
The Leaf style has Basic complexity. Leaf style is a relatively simple defensive style to be used against multiple enemies, especially when one has been ambushed. The combatant spins like a leaf on the wind, never attacking or defending in the same direction twice. Many students who specialize in Leaf style eventually develop the complex attack strategies of Wind style.

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Wax Style
The Wax style has Basic complexity. The beginning student of Bladecraft must be molded by their teacher, sculpted to establish the fundamental skills. Wax style is the most versatile of the Basic styles, containing techniques to be used in a variety of situations, including those which require a sheathed weapon.

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Wood Style
The Wood style has Basic complexity. Wood style is modeled after the traditional training techniques of dwarves and elves, and is used to introduce the principles of Bladecraft to students who have some experience wielding a weapon or shield in their off-hand.

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Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 03:23:21 PM
Blade Styles and Techniques (Moderate)
The four Blade Styles described here are all of Moderate complexity. Techniques from these styles can be learned by any character who has at least 9 ranks in Bladecraft, a Base Attack Bonus of +6 or higher, and who knows at least 8 Basic techniques. Required or granted tags are presented in the following order: Gesture, Hand, Motion, Position.

Bone Style
The Bone style has Moderate complexity. Practitioners of Bone style often begin their training by learning Wood style; however, Bone style is far more aggressive, and favors punishing attacks, relying on the advantage of armor, a shield, or a second blade for defense rather than care. You slam through your opponent's defense, crushing their joints, and leaving them scattered for the vultures and the bleaching sun. However, a skilled enemy, especially one with their own second blade, can bypass the rudimentary defense of Bone style and cause major damage to a practitioner as well.

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Flame Style
The Flame style has Moderate complexity. The aggressive blade techniques in this style focus on a constant barrage of attacks with few parries, keeping the opponent on the defensive. You aim to consume your opponent's stamina like the flame consumes the branch. However, practitioners of Flame style often wield their weapon one-handed, and are therefore somewhat more vulnerable to being disarmed.

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Iron Style
The Iron style has Moderate complexity. This balanced style emphasizes single strong downward blows, wielding a weapon in a two-handed grip for added power. You fall upon your opponent like the hammer upon the anvil, shaping them to your will and battering aside defenses. However, practitioners of Iron style must keep their feet planted for balance and strength, and are susceptible to dodging.

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Vine Style
The Vine style has Moderate complexity. This defensive style emphasizes footwork and technique, tiring out the opponent before striking with an unexpected lunge. You lie in wait like the forest in winter, before exploding into the sudden growth of a new sapling. This style can be used against multiple unskilled enemies, redirecting their attacks against each other. However, a skilled opponent with an offensive style can cause serious damage to a practitioner of Vine style who makes even a single mistake.

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Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 03:23:37 PM
Blade Styles and Techniques (Advanced)
The four Blade Styles described here are all of Advanced complexity. Techniques from these styles can be learned by any character who has at least 14 ranks in Bladecraft, a Base Attack Bonus of +11 or higher, and who knows at least 8 Moderate techniques. Required or granted tags are presented in the following order: Gesture, Hand, Motion, Position.

Blood Style
The Blood style has Advanced complexity. Almost every advanced student learns techniques from Blood style, the pulsing heart of superior Bladecraft. As the techniques a practitioner learns become more and more complex, it becomes similarly complicated to chain them together into a smooth, continuous dance. Blood style emphasizes control and fluidity, allowing the combatant to adapt to an evolving battle. While few of its techniques are particularly deadly in isolation, it should be noted that every sequence of blows exchanged by the best Blademasters includes at least one technique from the Blood style.

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Smoke Style
The Smoke style has Advanced complexity. This style is characterized by blades in constant motion, with the wielder melting away from attacks, twisting, and returning again to thrust steel into flesh. Most Smoke techniques involve the use of two weapons. While Smoke style is extremely effective against undisciplined, even bestial opponents, a well-trained cadre of soldiers wielding spears and shields can trap and skewer a practitioner as easily as any other combatant.

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Stone Style
The Stone style has Advanced complexity. Intended for heavily armored, shield-bearing combatants, practitioners of Stone style are boulders upon which the tide of battle breaks and shatters. You will be immobile as a mountain, withstanding anything your opponent throws against you, and crush your opponent beneath your powerful, cross-body swings. However, just as mountains can be ground to sand with time, a tireless and very fluid opponent can erode a Stone practitioner's stamina bit by bit.

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Wind Style
The Wind style has Advanced complexity. This primarily two-handed offensive style emphasizes broad slashes and constant rotation, tearing apart your opponents like a tornado through a wheat field. Wind style is ideal for facing multiple enemies, but is somewhat weak defensively, being very poor at parrying.

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Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 03:23:59 PM
Blade Styles and Techniques (Expert)
The four Blade Styles described here are all of Expert complexity. Techniques from these styles can be learned by any character who has at least 19 ranks in Bladecraft, a Base Attack Bonus of +16 or higher, and who knows at least 8 Advanced techniques. Required or granted tags are presented in the following order: Gesture, Hand, Motion, Position.

Clay Style
The Clay style has Expert complexity. Clay yields to the sculptor's touch, then becomes hard as stone, but brittle, in the fire. This form emphasizes misdirection, risk, and reward; it is usually referred to as the most difficult style to master. A practitioner of Clay style might make minimal movements, possibly taking small (or large) wounds, to maneuver the enemy into position, then execute the overconfident opponent with stunning precision; or, the blademaster might end a fight quickly and decisively with an unexpected gamble, coming a hairsbreadth from death in the process.

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Glass Style
The Glass style has Expert complexity. Often used by wizened, arthritic blademasters to teach their young prodigies humility, Glass style is the ultimate defensive style. Practitioners of Glass style understand the fragility of the body, the brevity and mortality of the soldier's plight, and seek to avoid deadly contact at nearly any cost.

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Sun Style
The Sun style has Expert complexity. Flashy and exciting, practitioners of Sun style are often master duelists or gladiators - warriors who know how to work a crowd, or leave a potential patron in awe. The techniques of Sun style are not substantially more complicated or difficult than those of other Expert styles, but they are as fancy as they are effective, and can sometimes cause a Blademaster to be over- or underestimated by their opponent.

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Water Style
The Water style has Expert complexity. Water style is the most versatile of all styles, granting its practitioners a means of adapting to their opponents' strengths and weaknesses. As water flows, it courses around obstacles and through barriers, cutting a channel through mountains, or flooding a rolling plain. Water style is perhaps the most utilized style by blademasters of sufficient skill and experience, as it is balanced for every situation, and attempts to turn weakness into strength.

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Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 03:24:15 PM
Reserved for Sword Forms V
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 03:24:25 PM
and one more...
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 03:24:45 PM
Bladecraft Extras
Every student of Bladecraft needs weapons, armor, and shields with which to fight. Even then, they cannot function alone, and need allies to support and protect. Presented here are magic items, spells, and other supplemental materials to make a practitioner of Bladecraft into a well-rounded, complementary member of any party.

Bladecraft Items
In campaigns where Bladecraft is relatively common, these items should be available anywhere standard magic items are sold. For a limited time only! Get them while they last!

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New Spells & Powers
These new spells and powers are for the arcane, divine, or psionic student of Bladecraft.

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Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Garryl on July 29, 2012, 09:28:38 PM
Characters who wait until high BaB and then dump a whole lot of ranks into Bladecraft can scoop up a lot of high level sword forms at once, skipping the lower level ones.

I'd go with any class that grants martial weapon proficiency with all weapons having it as a class skill, rather than making it by the individual character. Plus, that way you don't have to worry about what counts as a sword and what doesn't.

If you don't want Bladecraft to interact with ToB, better use different names. Otherwise, you need to know the source of an ability to determine its context and thus which it affects (unless you want them to be interchangeable, of course).
Instead of Stance, how about Posture?
Instead of Strike, how about Assault?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 29, 2012, 09:35:37 PM
Characters who wait until high BaB and then dump a whole lot of ranks into Bladecraft can scoop up a lot of high level sword forms at once, skipping the lower level ones.
Humm.  Yes.  Any suggested fixes for this?  Or is it really a problem?  It's kinda like waiting till high level to take your martial adept levels to get high-level maneuvers.  Anyway, the easy way is to put in blanket prereqs, like have "to learn a moderate form you must have X basic forms" or something.

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I'd go with any class that grants martial weapon proficiency with all weapons having it as a class skill, rather than making it by the individual character. Plus, that way you don't have to worry about what counts as a sword and what doesn't.
Yeah, that's a good idea for simplicity.

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If you don't want Bladecraft to interact with ToB, better use different names. Otherwise, you need to know the source of an ability to determine its context and thus which it affects (unless you want them to be interchangeable, of course).
Instead of Stance, how about Posture?
Instead of Strike, how about Assault?
Yay!  I couldn't think of alternate names.  Assault is good; I'm not convinced about Posture, it doesn't mean quite the same thing.  What about Guardant (as in en garde)?  Or I could call it a Form and then change the name of Forms to Techniques.

I'd like some more feats, if you can think of any.  I'd like these to turn a fighter into a real class, and having it be better for fighters than for barbs, rangers, or paladins means that feats should play a big role.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: FireInTheSky on July 29, 2012, 09:46:42 PM
How about a feat that lets you get to a different set of forms than the one you're currently in would typically dictate?  "Double Jointed" or something like that? (Quintuple-Jointed if you're a Thri-kreen  :D)


Also, how about a feat that lets people use something other than a sword?  Obviously, the class is primarily for sword-wielders, but if someone studied enough, they could potentially adapt these forms to other weapons (axes? Ashandarei? spears?).
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: veekie on July 29, 2012, 11:14:05 PM
Well if you want to open it up I can see forms appropriate to a wide variety of close combat weapons. Ranged weapons are a bit trickier.

Basic archetypes I can see are:
-Large blade forms for bladed weapons in two hands.
-Axe forms for chopping weapons
-Fencing forms for one handed bladed weapons.
-Twin forms for paired light weapons(though Slash/Pierce light weapons share similar styles, bludgeoning light weapons would follow different strokes)
-Hammer forms for solid impact weapons
-Staff forms for anything with a long stick, ranging from spears to staves to polearms and scythes
-Spear forms for bladed polearms
-Chain forms for either fully-chain weapons or weapons incorporating chains like flails.
-Shield forms
-Unarmed forms

Quite a lot of possible scope creep though. I'd say pick a few of them and finish them off first rather than spread yourself thin like that.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Garryl on July 29, 2012, 11:21:35 PM
You may wish to make this a flat-out variant that grants benefits based on BaB, rather than something always available at the cost of skill ranks. If the abilities are as useful as I think they're going to be, taking ranks in this skill will be a no-brainer and/or essentially required.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 30, 2012, 07:55:45 AM
You may wish to make this a flat-out variant that grants benefits based on BaB, rather than something always available at the cost of skill ranks. If the abilities are as useful as I think they're going to be, taking ranks in this skill will be a no-brainer and/or essentially required.
Well, my thought had been that it's possible to fight things at least somewhat effectively without using sword forms.  Everyone who wasn't trained by a blademaster in the books did so, you know?  So I wanted to have there be a method of allowing varied investment in the mechanic.  As for it being required... I'm hoping it will make a Fighter more viable, in which sense it would be required because a normal Fighter is not.



How about a feat that lets you get to a different set of forms than the one you're currently in would typically dictate?  "Double Jointed" or something like that? (Quintuple-Jointed if you're a Thri-kreen  :D)
Well... you can already kind of do that with Favored Form.

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Also, how about a feat that lets people use something other than a sword?  Obviously, the class is primarily for sword-wielders, but if someone studied enough, they could potentially adapt these forms to other weapons (axes? Ashandarei? spears?).
This would be more a factor of having other categories for forms, since many moves you make with a sword just don't make sense for weapons with other shapes.



Quite a lot of possible scope creep though. I'd say pick a few of them and finish them off first rather than spread yourself thin like that.

Yes, I am certainly worried about scope creep.  It's already moved way beyond what I expected originally, lol.  So I figured to start with the single-handed form since that seems to be most of what's in the books.


Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Garryl on July 30, 2012, 09:38:42 AM
You may wish to make this a flat-out variant that grants benefits based on BaB, rather than something always available at the cost of skill ranks. If the abilities are as useful as I think they're going to be, taking ranks in this skill will be a no-brainer and/or essentially required.
Well, my thought had been that it's possible to fight things at least somewhat effectively without using sword forms.  Everyone who wasn't trained by a blademaster in the books did so, you know?  So I wanted to have there be a method of allowing varied investment in the mechanic.  As for it being required... I'm hoping it will make a Fighter more viable, in which sense it would be required because a normal Fighter is not.

It's more like the fact that a sword form will always be more valuable than any other skill rank to a martial combatant. Either that, or the effects will be too small and situational to be worth keeping track of. Possibly even both.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: phaedrusxy on July 30, 2012, 09:49:07 AM
You may wish to make this a flat-out variant that grants benefits based on BaB, rather than something always available at the cost of skill ranks. If the abilities are as useful as I think they're going to be, taking ranks in this skill will be a no-brainer and/or essentially required.
Well, my thought had been that it's possible to fight things at least somewhat effectively without using sword forms.  Everyone who wasn't trained by a blademaster in the books did so, you know?  So I wanted to have there be a method of allowing varied investment in the mechanic.  As for it being required... I'm hoping it will make a Fighter more viable, in which sense it would be required because a normal Fighter is not.

It's more like the fact that a sword form will always be more valuable than any other skill rank to a martial combatant. Either that, or the effects will be too small and situational to be worth keeping track of. Possibly even both.
Sounds like a series of [Combat] feats from the Tomes. I like those. :D

Tracking both BAB and a skill sounds like a combination of a Combat feat and a Skill feat from the Tomes.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 30, 2012, 09:49:30 AM
Yeah... okay, how do I allow variable investment?

I guess I could make it based on BAB, like you get 1 per 2 BAB, and then you learn the rest through feats & Blademaster.  Does that sound workable?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: veekie on July 30, 2012, 11:27:08 AM
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Yes, I am certainly worried about scope creep.  It's already moved way beyond what I expected originally, lol.  So I figured to start with the single-handed form since that seems to be most of what's in the books.
Most of the offensive forms are 2H, but the iconic Westlands blademaster sword is a katana/bastard sword hybrid thats intended to be used that way anyway.

EDIT: BAB + Fighter Feat + Blademaster expansions seems about right.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on July 30, 2012, 12:57:08 PM
OK, I changed the rules writeup so that you learn techniques via BAB, feats, and blademaster (and not skill points).  Bladecraft is still a skill, though, like Spellcraft.  It'll be important for the Blademaster.

Oh yeah, and I did some name changes.  Sword forms --> Sword techniques; Stances --> Forms; Strikes --> Assaults.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 10, 2016, 11:12:10 AM
OK so, after a VERY long time, I've resurrected this project. I started it up again over on GitP, but I have enough of it done (from what I've planned so far) that I figured it'd be a good idea to bring it back to MMX for some good old-fashioned feedback.

I have one more Advanced style (Wind style) planned, then three Expert styles as well (kudos if you can guess the names correctly).

I'd love some more fluff & backstory, if anyone would like to contribute some. Honestly, contributions of any type would be welcome (with some editing & adapting by me, as necessary).

Let me know what you think!

EDIT: Also, I'm thinking that Wax style might need a few more techniques - dedicated styles for TWF and S&B don't come online until Advanced, so it would nice to have a bit of Basic support for those. Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 10, 2016, 11:28:51 AM
What do you want feedback on first?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 10, 2016, 11:32:37 AM
What do you want feedback on first?
Anything and everything, so take your pick :) This isn't in a contest, so I don't have any deadlines.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 10, 2016, 12:02:54 PM
I'll just go through the first post then.


What classes is Bladecraft a class skill for?

Learning and Using Blade Techniques
 - What happens if I don't take ranks in Bladecraft until BAB +3?  Do I get the 3 basic techniques but lose out on the extra technique from BAB +2?
 - Are forms encounter only as opposed to always on?  IIRC ToB stances are always on.
 - Do you have to be in a form of a style to use techniques of that style?  If I'm in a Wax Style form can I use a techinque from Vine Style as long as the tags match up?  (I'm assuming yes, just wanting to confirm.)

The tags are slightly confusing, hopefully they'll explain themselves later.

How many blade styles do you think you'll end up with?



Before I get into styles I want to make sure that I understand the system.

I'm level one and know three techniques.  I choose The Ox Lowers His Horns (Form), The Wood Grouse Dances (Assault), and Leaf Floating on the Breeze (Parry).

I start in my form and have the Low tag.  On my turn I use The Wood Grouse Dances (requires Low tag) and then lose the Low tag and gain the Middle and Bash tags.  On my opponent's turn I parry with Leaf Floating in the Breeze (requires Middle), and then lose the Bash tag and gain the Circle tag (ending with Middle and Circle).  On my turn I can't use The Wood Grouse Dances because I don't have the required low tag so I don't use any technique and just do a normal attack.  Because I didn't use a technique, I lose the Middle and Circle tags and gain the Low tag (the default for my form).  Is this right?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 11, 2016, 04:44:33 AM
I'll just go through the first post then.


What classes is Bladecraft a class skill for?
Wh-where did that go??? I USED to have it..... EDIT: Oh, it was moved to the Bladecraft Mechanics header. But either way I added it back into the skill description.

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Learning and Using Blade Techniques
 - What happens if I don't take ranks in Bladecraft until BAB +3?  Do I get the 3 basic techniques but lose out on the extra technique from BAB +2?
Correct.
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- Are forms encounter only as opposed to always on?  IIRC ToB stances are always on.
Always on.
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- Do you have to be in a form of a style to use techniques of that style?  If I'm in a Wax Style form can I use a techinque from Vine Style as long as the tags match up?  (I'm assuming yes, just wanting to confirm.)
Correct, you can use any technique whose tags (and other requirements, like using two weapons for Smoke style) are covered.

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The tags are slightly confusing, hopefully they'll explain themselves later.
I hope so too!

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How many blade styles do you think you'll end up with?
I have 10 planned (Wax, Fire/Iron/Vine, Smoke/Stone/Wind, 3 Expert), but there's no reason that we can't add more if we want to.



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Before I get into styles I want to make sure that I understand the system.

I'm level one and know three techniques.  I choose The Ox Lowers His Horns (Form), The Wood Grouse Dances (Assault), and Leaf Floating on the Breeze (Parry).

I start in my form and have the Low tag.  On my turn I use The Wood Grouse Dances (requires Low tag) and then lose the Low tag and gain the Middle and Bash tags.  On my opponent's turn I parry with Leaf Floating in the Breeze (requires Middle), and then lose the Bash tag and gain the Circle tag (ending with Middle and Circle).  On my turn I can't use The Wood Grouse Dances because I don't have the required low tag so I don't use any technique and just do a normal attack.  Because I didn't use a technique, I lose the Middle and Circle tags and gain the Low tag (the default for my form).  Is this right?
Perfect :)
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 11, 2016, 12:50:45 PM
Learning and Using Blade Techniques
 - What happens if I don't take ranks in Bladecraft until BAB +3?  Do I get the 3 basic techniques but lose out on the extra technique from BAB +2?
Correct.
And ranks in the skill are just to get you more dice, correct?

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- Are forms encounter only as opposed to always on?  IIRC ToB stances are always on.
Always on.

"You begin each encounter in your most recent Form" should be rephrased in that case.
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Before I get into styles I want to make sure that I understand the system.

I'm level one and know three techniques.  I choose The Ox Lowers His Horns (Form), The Wood Grouse Dances (Assault), and Leaf Floating on the Breeze (Parry).

I start in my form and have the Low tag.  On my turn I use The Wood Grouse Dances (requires Low tag) and then lose the Low tag and gain the Middle and Bash tags.  On my opponent's turn I parry with Leaf Floating in the Breeze (requires Middle), and then lose the Bash tag and gain the Circle tag (ending with Middle and Circle).  On my turn I can't use The Wood Grouse Dances because I don't have the required low tag so I don't use any technique and just do a normal attack.  Because I didn't use a technique, I lose the Middle and Circle tags and gain the Low tag (the default for my form).  Is this right?
Perfect :)

Obviously the tag system sorted itself out in my head.

Before I get into the syles (I'll do feats last because they're all style based and I want to see the system before looking at feat balance), I have one suggestion.  I have a tendancy to skim over fluff and didn't realize that your style fluff includes rules elements.  I'd suggest you add a rules elements sentence to the style descriptions.

Example (only the italicized text is new, nothing else is changed):

Smoke Style
The Smoke style has Advanced complexity. This style is characterized by two blades in constant motion, with the wielder melting away from attacks, twisting, and returning again to thrust steel into flesh. While Smoke style is extremely effective against undisciplined, even bestial opponents, a well-trained cadre of soldiers wielding spears and shields can trap and skewer a practitioner as easily as any other combatant.

All Smoke style techniques require the practitioner to be wielding two weapons, or a double weapon, in order to use them.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 11, 2016, 01:06:40 PM
Learning and Using Blade Techniques
 - What happens if I don't take ranks in Bladecraft until BAB +3?  Do I get the 3 basic techniques but lose out on the extra technique from BAB +2?
Correct.
And ranks in the skill are just to get you more dice, correct?
And to be able to learn higher-complexity maneuvers.

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- Are forms encounter only as opposed to always on?  IIRC ToB stances are always on.
Always on.

"You begin each encounter in your most recent Form" should be rephrased in that case.
Yeah, I agree -- I had been going back and forth about how Forms would work, and that bit of ambiguity is a relic of then.

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Before I get into styles I want to make sure that I understand the system.

I'm level one and know three techniques.  I choose The Ox Lowers His Horns (Form), The Wood Grouse Dances (Assault), and Leaf Floating on the Breeze (Parry).

I start in my form and have the Low tag.  On my turn I use The Wood Grouse Dances (requires Low tag) and then lose the Low tag and gain the Middle and Bash tags.  On my opponent's turn I parry with Leaf Floating in the Breeze (requires Middle), and then lose the Bash tag and gain the Circle tag (ending with Middle and Circle).  On my turn I can't use The Wood Grouse Dances because I don't have the required low tag so I don't use any technique and just do a normal attack.  Because I didn't use a technique, I lose the Middle and Circle tags and gain the Low tag (the default for my form).  Is this right?
Perfect :)

Obviously the tag system sorted itself out in my head.

Before I get into the syles (I'll do feats last because they're all style based and I want to see the system before looking at feat balance), I have one suggestion.  I have a tendancy to skim over fluff and didn't realize that your style fluff includes rules elements.  I'd suggest you add a rules elements sentence to the style descriptions.

Example (only the italicized text is new, nothing else is changed):

Smoke Style
The Smoke style has Advanced complexity. This style is characterized by two blades in constant motion, with the wielder melting away from attacks, twisting, and returning again to thrust steel into flesh. While Smoke style is extremely effective against undisciplined, even bestial opponents, a well-trained cadre of soldiers wielding spears and shields can trap and skewer a practitioner as easily as any other combatant.

All Smoke style techniques require the practitioner to be wielding two weapons, or a double weapon, in order to use them.
[/quote] Whenever there's actual rules stuff, it's duplicated in the technique rules text, other than the italics note for Stone style. Since the techniques are basically independent of their styles (other than thematic association), I wanted to make sure that the techniques had everything relevant.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 11, 2016, 06:44:12 PM
Ohh, I didn't notice that the techniques themselves had the restrictions listed.  Good call.

Ready for me to move onto the techniques?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 11, 2016, 07:09:46 PM
Ohh, I didn't notice that the techniques themselves had the restrictions listed.  Good call.

Ready for me to move onto the techniques?
Absolutely!
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 12, 2016, 01:22:14 PM
Okie doke, posted all the remaining styles! Next up is the PrC.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 12, 2016, 04:17:36 PM
Reminder to self: Basic = lvl 1, Moderate = lvl 6, Advanced = lvl 11, Expert = lvl 16

Anything that I don't mention is okay in my opinion.  As of right now I'm not looking at tags, I'll do a tags analysis later (not in terms of if it's appropriate but just seeing how many tags there are and making sure that there aren't any weird outliers).


Wax Style
 - The Wood Grouse Dances - do you only gain the insight bonus is the trip attempt fails?  That's currently how it reads.

Flame Style
 - Are there any restrictions on what can be in your off-hand?

Iron Style
 - Emptiness - What's to prevent someone from exiting and re-entering the form when not in combat until they get the highest bonus they can?

Vine Style
 - Leopard in High Grass - What does gaining a bonus on Bladecraft checks actually do besides letting you identify techniques?
 - Plucking the Low-Hanging Apple - Damage could become ridiculous very easily.
 - Twisting the Wind - The record keeping on this one could get complicated, especially if switching back and forth between another form.

Smoke Style
 - The fluff implies that shield bashes could count as a weapon for the purposes of meeting the requirements, is that intentional?
 - Black Pebbles on Snow - I assume the penalty is based on the damage you would have dealt if you succeeded with both attacks?
 - Bundling Straw - Again I see ridiculous damage happening.


I need a break, I'll look at the rest later.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 12, 2016, 09:17:33 PM
Reminder to self: Basic = lvl 1, Moderate = lvl 6, Advanced = lvl 11, Expert = lvl 16

Anything that I don't mention is okay in my opinion.  As of right now I'm not looking at tags, I'll do a tags analysis later (not in terms of if it's appropriate but just seeing how many tags there are and making sure that there aren't any weird outliers).


Wax Style
 - The Wood Grouse Dances - do you only gain the insight bonus is the trip attempt fails?  That's currently how it reads.
I don't remember what I originally intended, but either way I'm just going to give the bonus.

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Flame Style
 - Are there any restrictions on what can be in your off-hand?
Nope. :)

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Iron Style
 - Emptiness - What's to prevent someone from exiting and re-entering the form when not in combat until they get the highest bonus they can?
Edited to make it not abusable, and to use Bladecraft instead of Balance.

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Vine Style
 - Leopard in High Grass - What does gaining a bonus on Bladecraft checks actually do besides letting you identify techniques?
You make Bladecraft checks in a few of the advanced/expert techniques. Also I'm going to be adding a handful of Wax techniques, a couple of which will require Bladecraft checks.
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- Plucking the Low-Hanging Apple - Damage could become ridiculous very easily.
Oh jeez, I forgot about this. I think I gave that same effect in an advanced or expert technique. That needs to be seriously edited.
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- Twisting the Wind - The record keeping on this one could get complicated, especially if switching back and forth between another form.
Really? You only get a new pool with each encounter. If you switch out of it, you just set the dice aside until you come back to it. I can change the effect, if you really think it's a problem.

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Smoke Style
 - The fluff implies that shield bashes could count as a weapon for the purposes of meeting the requirements, is that intentional?
While it's not exactly what I had in mind, I don't have a problem with it. People adapt what they learn to make their own fighting style.
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- Black Pebbles on Snow - I assume the penalty is based on the damage you would have dealt if you succeeded with both attacks?
Correct. I'll clarify.
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- Bundling Straw - Again I see ridiculous damage happening.
Halved the number of dice. Hopefully that smooths it out a little more.

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I need a break, I'll look at the rest later.
  :cheers

I'll post new versions, and have the new Wax techniques up, tonight or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 12, 2016, 10:47:43 PM
Twisting the Wind - The record keeping on this one could get complicated, especially if switching back and forth between another form.
Really? You only get a new pool with each encounter. If you switch out of it, you just set the dice aside until you come back to it. I can change the effect, if you really think it's a problem.

I'm looking at it from a play-by-post perspective where you can't just put dice aside.  It's not a bad technique, if it being maybe complicated is my worst critique then it's not bad.

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Smoke Style - The fluff implies that shield bashes could count as a weapon for the purposes of meeting the requirements, is that intentional?
While it's not exactly what I had in mind, I don't have a problem with it. People adapt what they learn to make their own fighting style.

It's not what you had in mind?  You wrote "a well-trained cadre of soldiers wielding spears and shields can trap and skewer a practitioner as easily as any other combatant." :p

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I'll post new versions, and have the new Wax techniques up, tonight or tomorrow.

Okay, I'll wait to review the rest until you've made the changes and added the new Wax techniques.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 13, 2016, 02:11:44 AM
Twisting the Wind - The record keeping on this one could get complicated, especially if switching back and forth between another form.
Really? You only get a new pool with each encounter. If you switch out of it, you just set the dice aside until you come back to it. I can change the effect, if you really think it's a problem.

I'm looking at it from a play-by-post perspective where you can't just put dice aside.  It's not a bad technique, if it being maybe complicated is my worst critique then it's not bad.
Okie doke!

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Smoke Style - The fluff implies that shield bashes could count as a weapon for the purposes of meeting the requirements, is that intentional?
While it's not exactly what I had in mind, I don't have a problem with it. People adapt what they learn to make their own fighting style.

It's not what you had in mind?  You wrote "a well-trained cadre of soldiers wielding spears and shields can trap and skewer a practitioner as easily as any other combatant." :p
The cadre of soldiers aren't using Smoke style, the practitioner is. The point being that if you're using Smoke style, but you get hemmed in by disciplined, armored opponents w/ reach, you're gonna have a bad time.

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I'll post new versions, and have the new Wax techniques up, tonight or tomorrow.

Okay, I'll wait to review the rest until you've made the changes and added the new Wax techniques.
Sweet.

EDIT: Posted updated versions, including 5 new Wax techniques.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 13, 2016, 01:05:55 PM
New versions all seem fine.

New Wax Techniques
 - The Falcon Stoops looks fine.
 - Ice Shatters Stone looks very good.
 - The Serpent Strikes looks fine.
 - The Swallow Glides to the Branch - why does this one require lots of movement when Stone Style requires not moving much?
 - The Viper Flicks its Tongue - do you lose the shield bonus to ac when the ally gains it?

Stone Style
 - The Cyclone Rages - again, what stops you from exiting and entering the form to get the best bonus?
 - Stone Falls from the Mountain has a typo. "tripepd"

Wind Style
 - The Cat Dances on the Wall doesn't have the text about not getting a free attack even if you have the Improved Trip feat.  Intentional?


I'll finish up later.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 13, 2016, 10:45:37 PM
New versions all seem fine.

New Wax Techniques
 - The Falcon Stoops looks fine.
 - Ice Shatters Stone looks very good.
 - The Serpent Strikes looks fine.
Awesome. :D
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- The Swallow Glides to the Branch - why does this one require lots of movement when Stone Style requires not moving much?
Who cares? It's not in Stone style. Also, moving 5 feet per round qualifies you for both. But if it really bothers you, I can take that requirement out.
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- The Viper Flicks its Tongue - do you lose the shield bonus to ac when the ally gains it?
I don't think so. Does it seem like you would? If so, I can clarify.

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Stone Style
 - The Cyclone Rages - again, what stops you from exiting and entering the form to get the best bonus?
Good call. I switched it to a flat bonus.
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- Stone Falls from the Mountain has a typo. "tripepd"
:shakefist

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Wind Style
 - The Cat Dances on the Wall doesn't have the text about not getting a free attack even if you have the Improved Trip feat.  Intentional?
Yes - the techniques which have that text already grant you a free attack after the trip (i.e., Improved Trip replacements). This one doesn't, so I don't have to prevent someone from getting 2 free attacks on a trip.


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I'll finish up later.
:plotting

Based on GitP comments, I've edited the Blade Training feat, added 4 new feats, and edited several techniques.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 14, 2016, 01:47:52 PM
- The Swallow Glides to the Branch - why does this one require lots of movement when Stone Style requires not moving much?
Who cares? It's not in Stone style. Also, moving 5 feet per round qualifies you for both. But if it really bothers you, I can take that requirement out.

It's not in Stone Style, but the intent as I read it is for someone who's planning on going shield user (and thus will eventually be taking a lot of Stone Style techniques) to be using it.  The disparity is odd.

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- The Viper Flicks its Tongue - do you lose the shield bonus to ac when the ally gains it?
I don't think so. Does it seem like you would? If so, I can clarify.

Nope, it's fine as is.  I was just checking.

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Stone Style
 - The Cyclone Rages - again, what stops you from exiting and entering the form to get the best bonus?
Good call. I switched it to a flat bonus.
+5 is a lot but it's level 11 so it's probably fine.

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- Stone Falls from the Mountain has a typo. "tripepd"
:shakefist

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Wind Style
 - The Cat Dances on the Wall doesn't have the text about not getting a free attack even if you have the Improved Trip feat.  Intentional?
Yes - the techniques which have that text already grant you a free attack after the trip (i.e., Improved Trip replacements). This one doesn't, so I don't have to prevent someone from getting 2 free attacks on a trip.
Okay, just checking.

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I'll finish up later.
:plotting

Based on GitP comments, I've edited the Blade Training feat, added 4 new feats, and edited several techniques.

Want me to re-go over the edited techniques?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 14, 2016, 02:55:20 PM
- The Swallow Glides to the Branch - why does this one require lots of movement when Stone Style requires not moving much?
Who cares? It's not in Stone style. Also, moving 5 feet per round qualifies you for both. But if it really bothers you, I can take that requirement out.

It's not in Stone Style, but the intent as I read it is for someone who's planning on going shield user (and thus will eventually be taking a lot of Stone Style techniques) to be using it.  The disparity is odd.
Yeah... I get that. I think I was marrying mechanics to fluff too heavily. I'll see what I can do.


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Based on GitP comments, I've edited the Blade Training feat, added 4 new feats, and edited several techniques.

Want me to re-go over the edited techniques?
I don't think you HAVE to (mostly I was reining in the balance excesses), but if you'd LIKE to, I edited The Creeper Embraces the Oak, The Boar Rushes Down the Mountain, Emptiness, The Branch in the Storm, Apple Blossoms in the Wind, and Tower of Morning.

EDIT: I also was asked to extend the Bladecraft die progression past 21 ranks so people could play this epic. I'm considering changing the progression to make it a little less smooth, but more intuitive and extensible: 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d10+1d4, 1d10+1d6, 1d10+1d8, 2d10, etc. Thoughts?

EDIT2: Oh right, the other problem is that Swallow Glides is for either Stone or Smoke (you can have a weapon in your off-hand, too, remember?), and Smoke requires movement. So I'm going to just take the movement requirement out.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 14, 2016, 03:24:34 PM
Making Swallow Glides generic and removing the movement seems like the best bet.

The changes to techniques I've already looked at are fine.

Epic progression of bladecraft seems like a good idea (it's not that much work).  From a logical perspective your proposal looks fine, I don't know about balance wise (but I didn't look at balance wise for the current progression either).
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Amechra on November 14, 2016, 06:53:01 PM
Like I said on the other thread - the progression I gave you is perfectly extensible.

(After 1d6+1d8, go 2d6+1d4 → 3d6 → 2d6+1d8 → 3d6+1d4...)
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 15, 2016, 02:56:45 PM
Upboats for Amechra!

Blademaster PrC is posted. I have some ideas for more material to work on, too... since "scope creep" is my middle name!
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 15, 2016, 04:29:48 PM
Ugh, I'm falling behind.

Clay Style
 - The Mongoose Strikes the Serpent has a typo: "an another"

Is there a cap or ruling on bladecraft dice stacking?

Glass Style
 - Oak Shakes its Branches sounds extremely lethal, a +19 bonus to AC at 16th level in exchange for knocking your opponent out so your allies can finish him sounds like potentially too much.
 - River of Light - any reason you can't specifically target a limb?

Water Style
 - Whirlwind on the Mountain - are the extra damage dice added before or after halving the damage?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 15, 2016, 04:35:00 PM
Raging Bladeform prompts the question: do techniques require patience or concentration (which would make then unable to be used in a rage)?

The other feats look good.  I'm a bit surprised that you can be in a form and a stance at the same time.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 15, 2016, 04:38:12 PM
Blademaster
 - Heart's blood weeps - does this stack with other crit multiplier boosters?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 15, 2016, 08:27:17 PM
Ugh, I'm falling behind.
No worries.

Quote
Clay Style
 - The Mongoose Strikes the Serpent has a typo: "an another"
  :banghead

Quote
Is there a cap or ruling on bladecraft dice stacking?
Haven't thought about it. Are there enough ways to stack BC dice to cause balance problems, do you think?

Quote
Glass Style
 - Oak Shakes its Branches sounds extremely lethal, a +19 bonus to AC at 16th level in exchange for knocking your opponent out so your allies can finish him sounds like potentially too much.
Hm... good call. I'll scale it back to 1/2 BC ranks.
Quote
- River of Light - any reason you can't specifically target a limb?
Not really, other than that I didn't feel like writing any more specific rules than I already had :D

Quote
Water Style
 - Whirlwind on the Mountain - are the extra damage dice added before or after halving the damage?
Before. I'll clarify in the text.

Raging Bladeform prompts the question: do techniques require patience or concentration (which would make then unable to be used in a rage)?
No. They're a product of training and muscle memory. If you have to concentrate or think about what you're doing, you'll be too slow in a combat situation. It needs to be instinctive. I'll put in some text about it.

Quote
The other feats look good.  I'm a bit surprised that you can be in a form and a stance at the same time.
Why not? They're different subsystems. :) It's like being a cleric and a wizard at the same time.

Blademaster
 - Heart's blood weeps - does this stack with other crit multiplier boosters?
  Yes - I'll clarify.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Garryl on November 15, 2016, 09:36:12 PM
A table (preferably sortable) with each technique's required and granted position, motion, and auxiliary tags would be really helpful to try to figure out a flow of things, especially for low-level characters who only have a few techniques and thus have to ensure that they can chain one to another. For example, Viper Flicks is an assault in Wax that requires the Thrust motion tag, which itself can only be acquired (in Wax) from the Parting the Silk and Unfolding the Fan assaults (no parries or forms).

Also, it's kinda odd to me that Unfolding the Fan and Viper Flicks are the only two techniques in Wax that can't be used with position tags. Also strange is Folding the Fan, which works off of any tag at all.

You've got one Wax form for each of the 4 position tags, and one for each of the 2 auxiliary tags (even though nothing in Wax uses Circle specifically), but none for any of the motion tags.

Math about tags for a sec. 4 position, 4 motions, and 2 independent auxiliary tags means 5*5*(2^2) = 100 tag permutations. So, you could have 10000 techniques with unique combinations of required and granted tags, including 100 forms (the ones with no tags required). Well, probably 99, since you probably don't want a form that grants no tags at all. Mind you, looking at the expert styles, you're treating Diagonal more like an auxiliary than a position, so that's 4*5*(2^3) = 160 permutations.

Speaking of independence and dependence of tags within their categories, I'd like to suggest enforcing in the design (and changing some of the higher complexity techniques) to have the two main tag categories (position, motion) be mutually exclusive within themselves (ie: only one of Low, Middle, High, or Diagonal at a time, ditto for Thrust, Bash, Slash, and Lunge). May also wish to change those techniques that let you pick which tags you're granted to likewise enforce this restriction.

Actually, if you do something like that except actually enforced in the rules, then aside from the auxiliaries, you don't actually need to have techniques completely replace the tags by default, instead only overwriting whichever tag category they grant a tag to. Tags might only get cleared if you use a technique that specifically removes them (like a big finisher). Um, hmm... I'm getting conceptual ideas for a system like that that also leverages the multiple attacks per round that high BAB characters get into a sort of build-your-own-combo system (within the span of a full attack). That would require at least 4 independent tag categories, rather than 2. Don't need to worry about extra attacks, since the maximum potency (and required tags) is limited based on the strongest techniques you know, so you don't get anything super extra, just building up to another smaller combo, or to make a more powerful parry available with a full powered finisher.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: FireInTheSky on November 15, 2016, 10:29:08 PM
Techniques are inconsistent about the order that tags are written. I'd suggest always put position first, then motion, then aux.

Also, I'm working on a table for you. :)
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 16, 2016, 04:00:08 AM
A table (preferably sortable) with each technique's required and granted position, motion, and auxiliary tags would be really helpful to try to figure out a flow of things, especially for low-level characters who only have a few techniques and thus have to ensure that they can chain one to another. For example, Viper Flicks is an assault in Wax that requires the Thrust motion tag, which itself can only be acquired (in Wax) from the Parting the Silk and Unfolding the Fan assaults (no parries or forms).
Viper Flicks (along with a few others) was added after I made the rest of Wax, so I hadn't accounted for it within the spread of tags in Wax.

Quote
Also, it's kinda odd to me that Unfolding the Fan and Viper Flicks are the only two techniques in Wax that can't be used with position tags. Also strange is Folding the Fan, which works off of any tag at all.

You've got one Wax form for each of the 4 position tags, and one for each of the 2 auxiliary tags (even though nothing in Wax uses Circle specifically), but none for any of the motion tags.

Math about tags for a sec. 4 position, 4 motions, and 2 independent auxiliary tags means 5*5*(2^2) = 100 tag permutations. So, you could have 10000 techniques with unique combinations of required and granted tags, including 100 forms (the ones with no tags required). Well, probably 99, since you probably don't want a form that grants no tags at all. Mind you, looking at the expert styles, you're treating Diagonal more like an auxiliary than a position, so that's 4*5*(2^3) = 160 permutations.

Speaking of independence and dependence of tags within their categories, I'd like to suggest enforcing in the design (and changing some of the higher complexity techniques) to have the two main tag categories (position, motion) be mutually exclusive within themselves (ie: only one of Low, Middle, High, or Diagonal at a time, ditto for Thrust, Bash, Slash, and Lunge). May also wish to change those techniques that let you pick which tags you're granted to likewise enforce this restriction.

Actually, if you do something like that except actually enforced in the rules, then aside from the auxiliaries, you don't actually need to have techniques completely replace the tags by default, instead only overwriting whichever tag category they grant a tag to. Tags might only get cleared if you use a technique that specifically removes them (like a big finisher). Um, hmm... I'm getting conceptual ideas for a system like that that also leverages the multiple attacks per round that high BAB characters get into a sort of build-your-own-combo system (within the span of a full attack). That would require at least 4 independent tag categories, rather than 2. Don't need to worry about extra attacks, since the maximum potency (and required tags) is limited based on the strongest techniques you know, so you don't get anything super extra, just building up to another smaller combo, or to make a more powerful parry available with a full powered finisher.
Whew, there's a lot of stuff here for me to process.

So, I totally recognize the tag inconsistencies. The reason I wasn't more thorough about setting it up is that I wanted the system to feel more organic. For example, there are a lot more High tags than any other positional, because (a) you get more momentum when you're swinging a weapon with gravity rather than against it, and (b) you want to try and minimize the energy expenditure from bringing the weapon up high over and over again, so you might tend to try and stay high once you're there. Circle is the next most common, even more than the other positional, because it's really a semi-positional tag, and many techniques involve movement & turning in place. I tried to be more balanced with the motion tags (really they should be called "gesture" tags or something, I was never happy with "motion") via the styles, but even so, lunge is slightly less common than the others.

An objective benefit (besides "feel") to having the tags be less systematic, is that I can do things like have parries or stances which explicitly deal with High tags, and they're less situational because of how common High is. Etc. But I also get that it's much harder to balance the system in its current state.

If I'm going to rebuild the tag system, here's some disorganized stream of consciousness (thanks, insomnia):
Blargh. Too much to consider. Someone weigh in and help me out here lol.

Techniques are inconsistent about the order that tags are written. I'd suggest always put position first, then motion, then aux.
I know they are. I was trying to do alphabetical, but I got mixed up in a few places and haven't bothered to fix it.

Quote
Also, I'm working on a table for you. :)
You are awesome. And, just in time for me to completely overhaul the tag system!  (please don't kill me)
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 16, 2016, 11:06:19 AM
Bladecraft Dice Stacking
I haven't done the math because there are people here way better at math analysis than I am, but there are only a couple of stances that grant dice (all from Clay IIRC).  Nothing else I've seen allows dice stacking.

For River of Light
I'd suggest adjusting the final paragraph to read as follows if you don't want to make extra rules (I tried to to get too deep, for example I'd consider a tentacle to fall under forelimbs but there's no need to specify that):
If you choose to remove the target's has arms or forelimbs, one of these is removed. The target cannot use that limb to hold equipment or make attacks. If you choose to remove the target's wings, one of the wings is removed, and the target cannot use its wings to fly or glide, and cannot use the severed wing to make wing attacks. Otherwise, you can choose to remove one of the target's legs, and its base land speed is halved. If the target was bipedal, it falls prone.  Only limbs that fall under one of these categories (arms/forelimbs, wings, or legs) can be targeted by this technique.

On stances and forms at the same time
Yes, it is like being a Cleric and a Wizard at the same time.  You can't cast a cleric spell and a wizard spell at the same time. :P
I'm fine with them stacking, it just struck me as odd.



It looks like I won't have to do a tags analysis, other people are already on that one.  I don't have time to consider an overhaul right now...
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 16, 2016, 01:22:27 PM
Bladecraft Dice Stacking
I haven't done the math because there are people here way better at math analysis than I am, but there are only a couple of stances that grant dice (all from Clay IIRC).  Nothing else I've seen allows dice stacking.
Okie doke. I think BC dice can stack by default.

Quote
For River of Light
I'd suggest adjusting the final paragraph to read as follows if you don't want to make extra rules (I tried to to get too deep, for example I'd consider a tentacle to fall under forelimbs but there's no need to specify that):
If you choose to remove the target's has arms or forelimbs, one of these is removed. The target cannot use that limb to hold equipment or make attacks. If you choose to remove the target's wings, one of the wings is removed, and the target cannot use its wings to fly or glide, and cannot use the severed wing to make wing attacks. Otherwise, you can choose to remove one of the target's legs, and its base land speed is halved. If the target was bipedal, it falls prone.  Only limbs that fall under one of these categories (arms/forelimbs, wings, or legs) can be targeted by this technique.
Ok that works. I'll incorporate this wording when I post the major overhauls.

Quote
On stances and forms at the same time
Yes, it is like being a Cleric and a Wizard at the same time.  You can't cast a cleric spell and a wizard spell at the same time. :P
I'm fine with them stacking, it just struck me as odd.
Yeah, I get that. Lol.


Quote
It looks like I won't have to do a tags analysis, other people are already on that one.  I don't have time to consider an overhaul right now...
Indeed.

Based on feedback from GitP as well, people are in favor of the complete tag restructuring (with 16 tags). So I'm working on that writeup & reorganization now.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 16, 2016, 01:25:37 PM
I'll pause any more reviewing until you've started posting the overhaul, no need to re-go over things more in depth when it could all change.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 16, 2016, 01:48:05 PM
I'll pause any more reviewing until you've started posting the overhaul, no need to re-go over things more in depth when it could all change.
Right. I'm guessing that most of the techniques I've posted won't change substantially, but they may be reorganized into different styles and/or complexities.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 16, 2016, 01:52:16 PM
I'll pause any more reviewing until you've started posting the overhaul, no need to re-go over things more in depth when it could all change.
Right. I'm guessing that most of the techniques I've posted won't change substantially, but they may be reorganized into different styles and/or complexities.

Since I've looked at them all individually my next step would be to look at combinations and whatnot so that's definitely something to hold off on.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: FireInTheSky on November 16, 2016, 10:18:44 PM
Based on feedback from GitP as well, people are in favor of the complete tag restructuring (with 16 tags). So I'm working on that writeup & reorganization now.
Ugh. I think 16 is definitely too much. I have the feeling that this will lead to more defined action chains, rather than having lots of possibilities after any given action. Which goes against the idea of Blademasters being improvisational dancers.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Amechra on November 16, 2016, 10:51:49 PM
Based on feedback from GitP as well, people are in favor of the complete tag restructuring (with 16 tags). So I'm working on that writeup & reorganization now.
Ugh. I think 16 is definitely too much. I have the feeling that this will lead to more defined action chains, rather than having lots of possibilities after any given action. Which goes against the idea of Blademasters being improvisational dancers.

I agree. I also think taking down the old version is bad form.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 16, 2016, 11:09:39 PM
Based on feedback from GitP as well, people are in favor of the complete tag restructuring (with 16 tags). So I'm working on that writeup & reorganization now.
Ugh. I think 16 is definitely too much. I have the feeling that this will lead to more defined action chains, rather than having lots of possibilities after any given action. Which goes against the idea of Blademasters being improvisational dancers.

I agree. I also think taking down the old version is bad form.

I didn't realize the old stuff was gone.  I agree, keep it around.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 17, 2016, 05:25:37 AM
I have it saved on my computer, I just didn't want people to be confused with partially-posted stuff from different versions.

Also, I agree that 16 is too much. I'm scaling it back to 12, by taking out Diagonal, Lunge, Cradle, and Shift.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 18, 2016, 12:20:10 PM
Posted the new Basic styles. While the tags have been almost completely reworked, most of the old techniques haven't been edited at all (except for possibly the flavor text). A couple have had very slight edits. There are 12 new techniques as well (20 original Wax techniques + 12 to make 8 per style). I'm actually quite happy with how these worked out!

The Moderate, Advanced, and Expert techniques will not be moved into new Styles (as far as I can tell; if there are exceptions, I'll let you know), and will hopefully require a similarly minimal amount of editing. I'll need to rework all the tags, and add a completely new style at each complexity. Shouldn't take me more than a day or two - certainly by the end of the weekend it'll all be done.

Feel free to comment on the Basic stuff - if there are things I need to fix, I'd love to get them worked out before posting too much more.

I'm also going to post the original version of this stuff onto sirpercival's things, so people can use it as a resource & comparison.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 18, 2016, 01:16:11 PM
Just to confirm before I start looking at things, the tag system itself is done being reworked even if all the tags for the styles aren't finished?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 18, 2016, 01:35:03 PM
Just to confirm before I start looking at things, the tag system itself is done being reworked even if all the tags for the styles aren't finished?
Yes. I'm done changing the list of tags (at least unless people think what I have now is terrible, lol), it's set at 12. The intro rules post now has the correct list. I'm also done assigning tags to the Basic techs. Of course, that's subject to editing suggestions - I mean, I didn't leave anything unfinished before I posted them.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 18, 2016, 02:54:07 PM
I've noticed that not all Cleave required techniques actually state that they need the weapon to be wielded in two hands.  Are you assuming that the person will remember that Cleave = two hands or was that an oversight?  (Not judging, just asking.)
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 18, 2016, 03:16:34 PM
I've noticed that not all Cleave required techniques actually state that they need the weapon to be wielded in two hands.  Are you assuming that the person will remember that Cleave = two hands or was that an oversight?  (Not judging, just asking.)
It SHOULD say that in the Cleave tag description. Or is that what you meant about remembering? I had hoped to be able to take out the text.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 18, 2016, 09:43:20 PM
I've noticed that not all Cleave required techniques actually state that they need the weapon to be wielded in two hands.  Are you assuming that the person will remember that Cleave = two hands or was that an oversight?  (Not judging, just asking.)
It SHOULD say that in the Cleave tag description. Or is that what you meant about remembering? I had hoped to be able to take out the text.

That's what I said about remembering.  It is in the cleave tag, but it's also in all of the Cleave basic techniques but one.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 18, 2016, 10:18:13 PM
I've noticed that not all Cleave required techniques actually state that they need the weapon to be wielded in two hands.  Are you assuming that the person will remember that Cleave = two hands or was that an oversight?  (Not judging, just asking.)
It SHOULD say that in the Cleave tag description. Or is that what you meant about remembering? I had hoped to be able to take out the text.

That's what I said about remembering.  It is in the cleave tag, but it's also in all of the Cleave basic techniques but one.
Oh, ok. I can include it, then. Which one is missing?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 19, 2016, 07:57:38 AM
Moderate styles posted. I'm also (after a bit of discussion on GitP) upping the number of techniques known. Now you get 4 at 1st level, +1 per BAB. And Blade Training gives 3 additional.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 19, 2016, 12:22:14 PM
I've noticed that not all Cleave required techniques actually state that they need the weapon to be wielded in two hands.  Are you assuming that the person will remember that Cleave = two hands or was that an oversight?  (Not judging, just asking.)
It SHOULD say that in the Cleave tag description. Or is that what you meant about remembering? I had hoped to be able to take out the text.

That's what I said about remembering.  It is in the cleave tag, but it's also in all of the Cleave basic techniques but one.
Oh, ok. I can include it, then. Which one is missing?


The Robin Pecks at the Worm.  The first sentence of The Fox and the Chicken says "Wielding your weapon two-handed..."


Hopefully later today I'll have time to review the techniques.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: FireInTheSky on November 20, 2016, 04:37:25 PM
"Folding the Fan" (Wax) still says "Granted: Sheathed"

"The Serpent Strikes" (Wood) has an extra [ at the start.

"The Viper Flicks Its Tongue" (Wood) should say "Basic Wood Assault"

All of the following need the order of their tags checked:


The following have an extra period at the end of their tags:
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 20, 2016, 06:44:40 PM
Cloud
 - Low Wind Rising requires Stand but it says you can use it while sitting.  This amuses me.

Wood
 - I feel like from a thematic viewpoint each style (at least each Basic style) should be usable by itself.   The Falcon Stoops requires Thrust but no Wood technique grants Thrust.

Bone
 - The Stone Remembers has some confusing language with the bonuses.

Flame
 -it's less necessary here, but Lightning of Three Prongs requires Spin and it's also the only Flame technique that grants Spin.

Iron
 - Lion Springs requires Spin but no Iron technique grants Spin.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: FireInTheSky on November 20, 2016, 07:47:32 PM
It feels like the word "the" appears too many times at the start of technique names. I haven't read the Stormlight Archives, but in the other two, for the most part the form names don't usually start with "the." Some suggestions:
(click to show/hide)
Take a look at the Advanced and Expert techniques for the same thing.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 20, 2016, 09:59:30 PM
The Robin Pecks at the Worm.  The first sentence of The Fox and the Chicken says "Wielding your weapon two-handed..."
Aha! OK, I've added the text to TRPatW.

"Folding the Fan" (Wax) still says "Granted: Sheathed"

"The Serpent Strikes" (Wood) has an extra [ at the start.

"The Viper Flicks Its Tongue" (Wood) should say "Basic Wood Assault"

All of the following need the order of their tags checked:
  • Kissing the Adder (Flame)
  • Lion on the Hill (Flame)
  • Ribbon in the Air (Flame)
  • Cutting the Clouds (Iron)
  • Watered Silk (Iron)
  • Plucking the Low-Hanging Apple (Vine)
  • The River Undercuts the Bank (Vine)
  • Twisting the Wind (Vine)


The following have an extra period at the end of their tags:
  • Emptiness (Iron)
  • Two Hares Leaping (Iron)
  • Leopard in the Tree (Vine)
  • Twisting the Wind (Vine)
I'm a horrible, horrible person for missing all of these.  :sobbing Thank you

Cloud
 - Low Wind Rising requires Stand but it says you can use it while sitting.  This amuses me.
:D

Answering these slightly out of order, for grouping purposes:
Quote
Wood
 - I feel like from a thematic viewpoint each style (at least each Basic style) should be usable by itself.   The Falcon Stoops requires Thrust but no Wood technique grants Thrust.

Flame
 -it's less necessary here, but Lightning of Three Prongs requires Spin and it's also the only Flame technique that grants Spin.

Iron
 - Lion Springs requires Spin but no Iron technique grants Spin.
In answer, I'll quote here an exchange between me & Amechra over on GitP:

Quote from: Amechra
Quote from: sirpercival
Quote from: Amechra
Interesting note (if you treat the Styles as "complete" fighting styles):

- Cloud Stylists have to reset after Skipping Stone on the Shore, and will be using Low Wind Rises all the frickin' time. Also, to them, The Red Hawk Catches A Dove → The Fox And The Chicken → The Wolf Stalks Through The Mist probably all seem like parts of the same technique.

- Leaf Stylists can't use The Maiden Dances, and have to reset their pattern after The Robin Pecks The Worm. Which, unfortunately, will happen inevitably, unless you can continue to loop Drifting Snow and Leaf Floating On The Breeze. Literally anything else will lead to the sequence ending at The Robin Pecks The Worm.

- Wax Stylists have to reset after Cat On Hot Sand and The Millstone Grinds Flour. They end up boiling down to "spam (Un)Folding The Fan over and over".

- Wood Stylists can't use The Falcon Stoops, and have to reset their pattern when they use Pressing Apples Into Cider. Their sequences tend to be short or repetitive. Dog Howling At Midnight is probably viewed as a poor stance to start from - it provides limited options.

...

And then the guy who has mastered more than one comes by and demonstrates that the so-called "dead ends" of each style flow into each-other flawlessly, making up for each-other's weakness.
This is all entirely intentional, and also, in my opinion, 100% necessary. The styles are NOT "complete", and were explicitly designed not to be, and it's why I kept the number of techniques per style so limited (compare 8 techniques to ~25 maneuvers in a discipline). If you ever want or need to be able to switch seamlessly between styles mid-combat, there have to be entry and exit points so you don't waste any actions. This is a requirement - a Blademaster who isn't versatile or adaptable is a dead Blademaster. The styles are convenience groupings only - the ultimate Blademaster knows every technique.
I know - I just wanted to point it out to everyone so they'd all know how clever you are .
Lol. Hopefully that explains it!

Quote
Bone
 - The Stone Remembers has some confusing language with the bonuses.
I shall attempt to clarify.

It feels like the word "the" appears too many times at the start of technique names. I haven't read the Stormlight Archives, but in the other two, for the most part the form names don't usually start with "the." Some suggestions:
(click to show/hide)
Take a look at the Advanced and Expert techniques for the same thing.
All of the technique names in the original 10 styles were taken almost verbatim from WoT. For example, check this out. (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_forms)

But if other people have a problem with them, I can edit.

By the by, I'm working on a table as part of the rework. So you don't need to make one :) And, the Advanced styles will be posted tonight or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 20, 2016, 10:31:34 PM
Oh, re: tag order, all of those are correct. Note that tags are now given in the order Gesture, Hand, Motion, Position (which it says in the post header for each styles post).
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: FireInTheSky on November 20, 2016, 10:59:24 PM
By the by, I'm working on a table as part of the rework. So you don't need to make one :)
Now you tell me...  :shakefist

Oh, re: tag order, all of those are correct. Note that tags are now given in the order Gesture, Hand, Motion, Position (which it says in the post header for each styles post).
Well, in that case you should make the order of the "Bladecraft Tags" intro in the inital post be that same order.

It feels like the word "the" appears too many times at the start of technique names. I haven't read the Stormlight Archives, but in the other two, for the most part the form names don't usually start with "the." Some suggestions:
(click to show/hide)
Take a look at the Advanced and Expert techniques for the same thing.
All of the technique names in the original 10 styles were taken almost verbatim from WoT. For example, check this out. (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_forms)

But if other people have a problem with them, I can edit.
Huh. That's not at all what I remembered. In that case, do whatever. :)

...I''l quote here an exchange between me & Amechra over on GitP:
Quote from: Amechra
Quote from: sirpercival
Quote from: Amechra
Exchange
Exchange
Exchane
Good stuff! Maybe put something to that effect somewhere in the rules / descriptions?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 21, 2016, 11:41:27 AM
It doesn't surprise me that the styles not being self-sufficient with the tags is intentional but I figure that the Basic styles should be.  That's just at thematic disagreement though, not a system or balance one, so it's not a real issue.


Also, I agree with FitS.  That exchange (or a small paragraph summing it up) in the first post would be a good idea.  A lot of people are going to be reading this thinking about how it relates to Maneuvers where each schools is independent.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 22, 2016, 10:19:13 AM
Alright, I FINALLY got a new update posted. (Busy weekend!)

Changelog:Current Priority List:
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 22, 2016, 11:18:15 AM
I see no issues with the new feats.

I'm indifferent to "The".

I should actually be working right now so I'll do Advanced styles later...
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 22, 2016, 10:28:11 PM
Working on the Expert styles, I think I need to take out the explicit requirement part of Hand tags. If I don't, the Expert techniques will get incredibly, ridiculously confusing, and you won't be able to use them without wielding a double weapon that you sheathe with your buckler.

The techniques writeups will specify if you need to do something in particular, not the tags.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: FireInTheSky on November 22, 2016, 10:36:04 PM
Quote
Blood Style
The Blood style has Advanced complexity. Almost every advanced student learns techniques from Blood style, the pulsing heart of superior Bladecraft. As the techniques a practitioner learns become more and more complex, it becomes similarly complicated to chain them together into a smooth, continuous dance. Blood style emphasizes control and fluidity, allowing the combatant to adapt to an evolving battle. While few of its techniques are particularly deadly in isolation, but every sequence of blows exchanged by the best Blademasters includes at least one technique from the Blood style.
Grammar.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 22, 2016, 11:36:14 PM
Quote
Blood Style
The Blood style has Advanced complexity. Almost every advanced student learns techniques from Blood style, the pulsing heart of superior Bladecraft. As the techniques a practitioner learns become more and more complex, it becomes similarly complicated to chain them together into a smooth, continuous dance. Blood style emphasizes control and fluidity, allowing the combatant to adapt to an evolving battle. While few of its techniques are particularly deadly in isolation, but every sequence of blows exchanged by the best Blademasters includes at least one technique from the Blood style.
Grammar.
Dangit, I thought I fixed that. It'll be fixed in the next update.

So, I'm thinking about allowing a Bladecraft check to change a granted tag. It's kinda necessary in Expert, since there are only 32 techniques (including forms) and 81 possible combinations of the 12 tags... my coverage is less than half. Two questions: (a) does anyone see a problem with this? (b) should it be an intrinsic part of the skill, or should it be a feat w/ high pre-reqs?
 
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Amechra on November 23, 2016, 02:02:17 AM
Quote
Blood Style
The Blood style has Advanced complexity. Almost every advanced student learns techniques from Blood style, the pulsing heart of superior Bladecraft. As the techniques a practitioner learns become more and more complex, it becomes similarly complicated to chain them together into a smooth, continuous dance. Blood style emphasizes control and fluidity, allowing the combatant to adapt to an evolving battle. While few of its techniques are particularly deadly in isolation, but every sequence of blows exchanged by the best Blademasters includes at least one technique from the Blood style.
Grammar.
Dangit, I thought I fixed that. It'll be fixed in the next update.

So, I'm thinking about allowing a Bladecraft check to change a granted tag. It's kinda necessary in Expert, since there are only 32 techniques (including forms) and 81 possible combinations of the 12 tags... my coverage is less than half. Two questions: (a) does anyone see a problem with this? (b) should it be an intrinsic part of the skill, or should it be a feat w/ high pre-reqs?

It should be a check to keep a pre-existing tag.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 23, 2016, 06:01:00 AM
Quote
Blood Style
The Blood style has Advanced complexity. Almost every advanced student learns techniques from Blood style, the pulsing heart of superior Bladecraft. As the techniques a practitioner learns become more and more complex, it becomes similarly complicated to chain them together into a smooth, continuous dance. Blood style emphasizes control and fluidity, allowing the combatant to adapt to an evolving battle. While few of its techniques are particularly deadly in isolation, but every sequence of blows exchanged by the best Blademasters includes at least one technique from the Blood style.
Grammar.
Dangit, I thought I fixed that. It'll be fixed in the next update.

So, I'm thinking about allowing a Bladecraft check to change a granted tag. It's kinda necessary in Expert, since there are only 32 techniques (including forms) and 81 possible combinations of the 12 tags... my coverage is less than half. Two questions: (a) does anyone see a problem with this? (b) should it be an intrinsic part of the skill, or should it be a feat w/ high pre-reqs?

It should be a check to keep a pre-existing tag.
That is a very interesting idea. Would it be in place of a granted tag, or in addition to?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 23, 2016, 01:47:35 PM
What about this implementation:

"You can also make a Bladecraft check when using a technique to retain a previously granted tag. If the technique would have granted a tag of the same type as the tag you are retaining, the retained tag replaces the tag you would have been granted. If the technique does not grant a tag of the same type, you retain the tag in addition to the new tags granted by the technique. The base DC for retaining a tag is 15, +3 for each tag the technique normally grants, -2 if the technique would have granted a tag of the same type. Note that, as this use of the Bladecraft skill is always in combat, you may not take 10 when attempting to retain a granted tag."

So with Basic techs, you have DC 16 or 18 for 1 or 2 tags; Moderate techs have DC 19 or 21 for 2 or 3 tags; Advanced have DC 22 or 24 for 3 or 4 tags; and Expert are always DC 25. That seems quite straightforward - depending on your build & Form, it's probably not automatic, but you should make it more often than not.

I like this for a few reasons. First, I had been worried that it was easy to move down a level of complexity in technique, but very difficult to move up; this makes it straightforward, though you still have to be smart about it. Second, you'll never get more than 4 tags this way, so you don't have to worry about anything breaking. Third, it makes using Advanced & Expert techniques much, much easier on the player.

In looking this over, I noticed that I need to edit the skill tricks for the tag revisions. If I use the above implementation, Exotic Grip would be replaced by a skill trick which lets you take 10 when retaining a tag.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 28, 2016, 12:48:19 PM
Now that the holiday is past and I'm back into my usual routine, it was clearly time for a major update.

Changelog:Current Priority List:Note that Dread Necromancer has been added to the list of classes that are getting sub levels.

I may not have enough posts reserved for all of this. If not, I'll make a new thread w/ more posts reserved.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: FireInTheSky on November 28, 2016, 08:08:14 PM
I may not have enough posts reserved for all of this. If not, I'll make a new thread w/ more posts reserved.
Sub-forum?
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 28, 2016, 08:47:12 PM
I may not have enough posts reserved for all of this. If not, I'll make a new thread w/ more posts reserved.
Sub-forum?
I could, but I still have to keep it all in one thread over on GitP, so I might as well keep it consistent.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: FireInTheSky on November 28, 2016, 09:11:45 PM
I may not have enough posts reserved for all of this. If not, I'll make a new thread w/ more posts reserved.
Sub-forum?
I could, but I still have to keep it all in one thread over on GitP, so I might as well keep it consistent.
:bs
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 29, 2016, 11:19:44 AM
Cavalier's Bladeform - should the [High] bonus only apply while mounted?

Sun Style
 - The Creeper Climbs the Cliff - Skill checks can't crit-fail or succeed, does that apply to this form?  (I'm looking for clarification if the form is "use Bladecraft instead of attack bonus" or "make skill check instead of attack roll".)
 - Meltwater Flooding the Banks - does this need a range?
 - Whirlwind on the Mountain should restrict the attack to an opponent who is threatening you (that's obviously the intent but it doesn't actually say that in the first line).
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 29, 2016, 11:59:25 AM
Cavalier's Bladeform - should the [High] bonus only apply while mounted?
Updating to clarify (and add another effect).

Quote
Sun Style
 - The Creeper Climbs the Cliff - Skill checks can't crit-fail or succeed, does that apply to this form?  (I'm looking for clarification if the form is "use Bladecraft instead of attack bonus" or "make skill check instead of attack roll".)
Clarifying that it's a skill check.
Quote
- Meltwater Flooding the Banks - does this need a range?
Editing to indicate that the opponent has to have line of sight to you.
Quote
- Whirlwind on the Mountain should restrict the attack to an opponent who is threatening you (that's obviously the intent but it doesn't actually say that in the first line).
Yeah, someone else pointed that out too. I'll make it so.

These will all be included in the next update.
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: sirpercival on November 30, 2016, 02:15:33 PM
Hey folks, this is a couple versions behind the GitP post, because I'm waiting on Prime to give me a subforum. At that point I'll bring everything here up to speed. :)
Title: Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
Post by: Nanshork on November 30, 2016, 02:40:25 PM
Hey folks, this is a couple versions behind the GitP post, because I'm waiting on Prime to give me a subforum. At that point I'll bring everything here up to speed. :)

Okay, sounds good.