Min/Max Boards

currently trying to figure out if it's worth it to try and pimp out and make engaging a high level Rogue or Barbarian.  Or, whether I should do the clearly superior (and maybe more interesting) thing and play a Alchemist (vivisectionist).   

Depends what you  want really, apart from alchemist, the other 2  classes do what it says on the can. The best barbs get hit every round and even have abilities to let peeps hit them more.. all so that when come their turn they can rip faces off with every hit.

Rogues are more skilljunkies and often I feel people actually want to be playing a ninja when they play rogue, since ninja is more suited to actual sneak and stab from most angles.

On paper Vivisectionist  is one of the sickest  melee chars you can have in the game... but I can't play an alchemist without making him a straight goblin alch and taking as many feats to throw bombs everywhere... as fast as possible lol.

If your looking for something interesting though I'd seriously consider this:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator

Has all the utility of a rogue plus an alchemist's extracts that if your DM is like me they'll go with the RAI on alchemists and say you count as a spellcaster to qualify for item creation and metamags and so on.

It outskills alot of other classses with that inspiration x and quite frankly studded strike is superior to sneak attack in almost every way since you don't have to meet flanking / flat footed requirements to get it.

A friend of mine played a medieval sherlock with this class recently so I could probably get a working build dropped if interested.

As far as to many choices goes... frankly I feel 3x is far worse for that than path finder. In all honesty I avoid 90% of topics about 3x on this site because despite playing it as my main tabletop for a year and a bit, I barely know what people are talking about with the insane amounts of prestige classses and splat material thats thrown around on here like it got learned in primary school or something.

It likely was with some people I suppose.

I'm not sure it really needs much tweaking past 5th ed.
The way fifth edition handles wizards recovery I think is a fair trade off and honestly, as long as you pick your cantrips in that edition carefully, you'll find using them more than most your other spells.

Honestly though, the camping  evry 5 minutes issue is something I solve by giving the group initiative to finish a given task within a certain time frame.
The last time it was solve this riddle or you and everyone else trapped here will be teleported to a random plane of hell by those weird ritualistic lines all over the place.

I think what people have to be careful off is giving low level parties too long a work day, and higher level characters too short a work day. There being afterall a natural progression in difficulty of go rescue my missing pet chicken, then come back and you can stay in my barn for free to  go storm that lodge full of skullcrusher ogres, a drow priestess and about 50 orc slaves.

So in short, let people recover half their levle in spell slots whenever they take light or no strenuous activity  for an hour or more. Make memorized cantrips infinite use and consider upgrading a couple of the offensive ones to D6s+spellcasting ability  istead of D3s. Never understood who in their right mind would pick up ray of frost... even at level 1.

As for save or die spells and the trade off in power at higher levels..., the only suggestion I can give is to limit their use with expensive conponents IF your really keen too. I personally think that wizards becoming god at lvl 20 is only fair for being less than a rat catcher at level 1. If your having some issue with a powerful wizard pretty much carrying the group at higher levels then I believe that is a matter of designign encounters more specifically to pin them down without killing him outright first round.

Well then, lets show them some love:
This is a char I built as an  NPC for varius purposes in the current pf game i'm running. math  might be wrong but i love this winter knight concept.

Xand Human (CG), Fighter (thunder striker) /11,
Init: +7, HP: 143
Defence: AC 22, Touch 11, Flat 21, Dr   -3
Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +6 or +9 against fear.
Special: Snow shroud  1D6+9 9 rds.
Offense: Speed 20 ft, space/Reach : 5 ft.
Melee: +16/+11/+6 falchion, +14/+9 buckler-
damage: 2d4+23 15-20x2 falchion, 1D4+9 20x2 buckler.
Special: +1D6 cold steel (sp)

Statistics.
Str 22, dex 13, con 14, wis 14, int 10, cha 15
BAB: +11: CMB +17/+20 with falchion, CMD: 28 or 39 against disarm and grapple
skills
Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int) +13, Knowledge (engineering) (Int) +13, Survival (wis) +8,

Perception (wis) +13

Feats
power attack, cleave, improved initiative, two weapon fighting, Skillfocus (survival),weapon

focus (falchion), eldritch heritage cold steel, weapon specialisation (falchion), toughness,

improved two weapon fighting,, improved critical (falchion), Critical focus, Improved

eldritch heritage snow shroud.
Traits: reactionary, indomitable faith.
Gear.
Handy haversack, +1 Adamantine full plate, +4 belt of ogres strength, Boots of speed, Cap of

the free thinker, +1 cold iron Falchion, +1 silversheen spiked buckler, weapon cord.

SQ abilities
Bravery, +3 to will saves against fear.
Weapon training heavy blades, + 2 to attacks with heavy blades.
Weapon training close, +1 to attacks with close weapons.
Cold steel (sp), Standard action to touch and gain +1D6 cold damage on weapon or 50

amunition for 4 rds
Snow Shroud (Su): At 9th level, you ignore concealment and Perception penalties in natural

or magical snow, ice, fog, and similar weather conditions. In addition, you can surround

yourself with a cloak of swirling snow for a number of rounds per day equal to your sorcerer

level. This power acts and deals damage as a fire shield (chill shield) that sheds no light.

It provides a 20% miss chance on attacks made against you and grants a bonus on Stealth

checks equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level in snowy or icy areas. You can use this ability once

per day at 9th level, twice per day at 17th, and three times per day at 20th.

So... nobody reads this?

Not everybody can read!
I sadly, never played any of the D'n'D based games either, though for campaign journals I do enjoy a touch more detail on the combats. Nothing so detailed as round by round + numbers, but a general how she rolled a couple of numbers of to hit and damage and some hp on the more interesting fights would satisfy.

Ah i see.
All those points are fair examples though I will say I think the reason GM abducation has become relegated to always become a lengthy discussion / debate is directly related to the fact that earlier editions of dnd were so rules heavy and content wide that a player who's always read up, could usually find some rule in book to deny what the DM wanted to do. Or simply because the DM doesn't know every class, prestige, feat and item by heart, it created this cenario where the player's knowledge base could be so outside the DM's because of all the extra content the DM would end up discussing it anyway.
This always makes people forget the rule stated near the beginning in most of the PHBs i've read that says the DM is god, if you don't like the game, leave.

Now, while a player should always know their shit, I feel like 5es vagueness give me the right as the DM to really be god. I try not to take it overboard and discussing out of session is fine, but this is usually how it goes in game.
Player: can I do this?
Me: No
Player: but Perfect strike says
Me: you can leave, or we'll discuss it after.
Or
Player out of session: "Can my alchemist take arcane strike?"
Me: hold on, let me read on it real quick... &15 mins later*
Player@ well?
Me: RAW no, But the maker on paizo admitted his original intent was to make the class a spellcaster and it makes the fluff less awkward to rangle out so i'll Go with the RAI this time and say yes.

That heartwarming cenario always brings a smirk to my lips but I'm a bit of a troll so thats natural for me. My main group who I run for though know how I run and note down questions in  game to ask afterwards and in turn when I play in a game even when the dm says grappling is  still a move action in pf I don't contradict them cos its his or her game and they can dern run it however they like and if their not open to changes I'd like out of session or their not presenting me with the game I want I drop out.

So... yeah, I'm just a fan of the system that goes, player ask for something, DM decides. end of  story even if DM takes 10 minutes to think about it out of session.

Personally speaking, 4 > 3 > 5 in terms of structure, but 3 > 5 > 4 in terms of what I'd actually play.  Mainly on the basis of how abundant and exciting the options within that structure are.  That said, given how much DM-adjudication is involved in 5E, I'd only play it with a DM I knew to be relatively compatible.

Could someone give some examples of which rules and portions of 5e structure are more vague than 3.5?
Granted its a simpler system, and the simplicity literally confused me for about an hour after I  read most of the PHB but its well worth it when you can go a session without players interrupting to ask semi-obvious questions or people disputing a rule that doesn't exist anymore.

Personally I prefer 5e to play and DM for when compared with 3.5 and pf and it may very well be my specific group but I personally haven't experienced any real vagueness when playing. Though I'm sure i'll be enlightened as to where that sentiment comes from shortly.

ah, Well, even before I saw the shadow craft in this I would've said shadow conjurations

Only thing not on the guide worth considering I think is:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bracers-of-falcon-s-aim

They dont add the damage, but would save you from taking a keen enchantment, or the improved crit feat.
So, hello merciful bow again I guess.

It depends on the setting.

True, a single god cenario always invokes thoughts of inquisitory / very religious society  kind of atmosphere. whereas the jap approach comes of as more casual.

Personally I prefer a mix where there is one really powerful deity that created everything and has alot of the portfolios / domains represented in his worship. but isn't particularly interested in taking anything like action himself ever.

and then ontop of that, allow middlish level demons able to grant spells  and prayers to something like half of their HD, i.e. Succubae. With bonus spells of their patron being spells directly on the succubae's spell list
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/succubus
Then you don't have to really think up ultra unique options of whom to follow and why. When someone reaches the level limit of what spells they can grasp, could be a cool mechanic to have to find a new patron of similar alignment, and run a quest to find said new patron while avoiding the murderous rage from the previous at your betrayal,  yada yada.

Or conversely have the quest to be to find artifacts or magic to power up your patron. / help him, her or it kill its own master and assume greater power for itself, granting you access to higher level spells.

Might've gone on a weird creative rant there... but  there you have it.

Thankfully this isn't 3.5 and the whole host of priority from effects from feats, spells and placing is in large down to the DM to decide on as it should be.

From what you've posted I'd say I'd agree with you. The feature already nullifies any advantage attackers would gain back to normal, so you, or anyone else in the party are free to hit them with effects that would give them disadvantage on rolls affecting you or any other rogue with that class feature.