Author Topic: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder  (Read 285236 times)

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #180 on: May 05, 2020, 11:55:58 AM »
Power, what would be your opinion on what would be the worst archetype(s) overall?
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Offline Nanashi

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #181 on: May 05, 2020, 06:06:22 PM »
Shifter likely has all three of the three worst.

Fiendflesh Shifter falls automatically, becoming an NPC that knows Druidic.
Quote
Fiendflesh shifters care nothing for the natural world and are instead consumed by an ever-growing lust for power at any price [...] an intrusion into the natural order of things and a foe who must be sought out and destroyed.
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A shifter who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a non-druid or a non-shifter loses all her supernatural abilities. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a shifter until she atones (see the atonement spell).

Oozemorph is pretty well documented as broken in the truenamer sense. Rather than fix it, didn't they go out of their way to rule that the work around to make it playable (play a Kitsune) didn't work because they didn't want it to? One of the extremely rare cases where losing a level (which is hard in PF) will make you more powerful.

Rageshaper literally makes you an NPC. No idea how that got printed, especially since there is a similiar Vigilante archetype, Brute, Paizo had already admitted was a mistake. Brute also belongs on a worst of list.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 06:08:44 PM by Nanashi »

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #182 on: May 06, 2020, 06:22:31 AM »
Power, what would be your opinion on what would be the worst archetype(s) overall?
Vow of Poverty on Monks, obviously. Cloistered Cleric is also pretty awful. Untouchable Rager is a severely garbage Bloodrager archetype. Opportunist is a garbage archetype on Fighters alright. Majordomo is hot garbage for Investigators. There are many more, but Vow of Poverty is by far the worst, assuming you don't just break the vow. Strictly speaking VoP does permit you to have 1 item you can pour all your WBL into, though.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #183 on: May 06, 2020, 12:44:09 PM »
Yeah, some pretty terrible ones there.
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Offline Endarire

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #184 on: May 23, 2020, 12:42:20 AM »
Master Summoner: How does this change its tier if it does?  Paizo warned people about its exceptional power, and I seek your opinion.

Magus: What archetypes notably change its tiering?  Magus and Warpriest are focused on doing the martial + casting from low levels while full casters seemingly are meant to be more powerful and versatile later.

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #185 on: May 23, 2020, 07:04:34 AM »
Master Summoner is internal tier movement mostly. Tier 2 is already an extremely powerful tier. The big issue with Master Summoner is that you can just spend every turn summoning more monsters with your extreme uses/day and shutting down combats with extremely large crowds of monsters to use as everything from utility to meatwalls to damage sources, but normal Summoners can already use Summon Monster -> monsters attack, then on next round hold action summoned monsters attack -> Summon Monster again -> more monsters attack and get 2 packs of monsters attacking each round. I guess if you have the benefit of concealment you can spam summon monster to make a large pack of enemies before walking through a door to nuke everything. On that note you can also lend items to your summons to make them uncommonly dangerous. Lillend Azatas for instance are basically 7th level bards, which means if you hand them Dervish Sikke, Three Reasons to Live, and Banner of the Ancient Kings they will do Inspire Courage +5 instead of Inspire Courage +2. Similarly you can hand them Page of Spell Knowledge or Ring of Spell Knowledge to let them cast spells they don't have as spells known.

For Magus, the most potent archetypes are Hexcrafter (if you abuse SoL hexes and the like) and Beastblade (if you make up for loss of Knowledge Pool), since it's made for action economy abuse. Achieving Tier 2 is pretty doable for any Magus through either abusing SoL effects or using spell blending to obtain the right spells from the Wizard list. Not to mention the option of just using wands or scrolls for spells not even on your list, given their arcana that let them resolve scrolls and wands with their own ability score for spell DCs, so all you need to do is cast Monstrous Physique II to turn into a Doppleganger and use their mimicry ability to start using scrolls and wands without a UMD check so long as their caster level is lower than yours (provided they can be activated with an intelligence ability score requirement, or you will have to make a UMD roll for that part, at least). Alternatively, use a Pragmatic Activator magic trait to make UMD int-based and maybe a Skill Focus feat. UMD abuse and WBLmancy can reach T1 in general, tbh, but the Magus's special capability to just resolve scrolls and wands with his own ability modifier just lends itself to extra silliness with the most basic UMD applications.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 04:25:04 PM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #186 on: July 09, 2020, 04:56:33 AM »
@Power here is the response when I sent a link to your tier list of GitP.
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #187 on: July 09, 2020, 08:09:52 AM »
Huh.

Incidentally, it's not getting to use Wish at 17 that makes the Bard crazy. It's getting well over 30 free daily uses of Limited Wish (no component cost necessary, unless you are emulating a spell with over 1k gp material component) at level 13 that makes it T1. And when I say Bard (Music Beyond the Spheres masterpiece) I am saying it's only T1 once you have that masterpiece. Of course, you can also reach Tier 1 at lower levels just by abusing Legato Piece on the Infernal Bargain for free Wishes at level 11 or using Dominate Person to get your own pet Wizard or whatever, but at that stage you are doing specific optimized plays to break the tiers, whereas becoming T1 with Music Beyond the Spheres requires no stunts. You just use it and you're overpowered with just about every spellcasting solution at your disposal. At most the "stunt" is to use Music Beyond the Spheres to hand yourself free Restoration on demand to remove its own ability drain.

Tier bumping is easily achieved through optimized play even independent of archetypes. It's somewhat rare for archetypes to achieve actual tier bumps on their own, honestly. Internal tier movement does happen though. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 07:07:03 AM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #188 on: July 09, 2020, 12:32:19 PM »
Or like how the tier 0 "turn into a trap" thing only kicks in when you actually get it (earliest level 14) or arch-familiar at level 20.
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #189 on: July 09, 2020, 12:37:24 PM »
I found it interesting that they instantly assumed that this tier list was based on 9th level spell selection or tried to write it off as being a 3.PF list (neither of which are remotely accurate). Seems like they were just rushing for reasons to be dismissive, really.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #190 on: July 09, 2020, 03:45:10 PM »
agreed.
PF is DnD 3.75, so of course there's going to be overlap on the tier list. but it doesn't mean that they're affected by how the 3.5 classes performed
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #191 on: July 10, 2020, 04:49:52 PM »
I also found it amusing that they assumed the tier lists revolved around optimization stunts, because really any class can reach Tier 1 with sufficient optimization.

The tier lists only operate under the assumption that you know your class and how to play it, not that you are doing some kind of optimal game-breaking tech. What makes 9th level prepared casters Tier 1, for instance, isn't the fact that they get 9th level spells, but the fact that they have an extremely expansive suite of solutions to virtually any sort of problem and they get those spells earlier than anyone. At most they need 1 day to prepare all the spells they need (or also, in the Druid's case, to dismiss and recruit a new animal companion with a new build) and obtain a tailored solution to utterly trivialize the problem the party is facing. 6th level casters typically do not have full access to their spell lists without stunts or have more limited spell lists to draw from (Warpriests for instance do not get domain spells, Magus has a more limited list and is penalized for trying to get equal-level Wizard spells, Alchemist has a rather limited list as well), they tend to get their spells a bit later to boot, and they're less likely to be capable of becoming fortresses unto themselves who auto-solve any problem in a single spellcast or a few spellcasts if it's a non-combat task.

Wizards on the other hand can easily shapeshift into elementals with large temporary hitpoints while retaining spellcasting capability, utterly subdue entire encounters of enemies in a single spell, summon monsters to annihilate whatever stands in their way with extreme prejudice, place contingencies to teleport themselves away from chance of death, make simulacrums and undead armies, create walls of iron and fabricate them into armaments fit to supply a regiment, divine their enemies' every secret, read people's minds, mind control their enemies, thrive underwater or in outer space, teleport around with ease, and the list just goes on and we haven't even touched the level 7+ spells. Druids can shapeshift into an extreme variety of potent forms while retaining spellcasting ability and collect +15 AC without any penalties just by wearing a +1 Wild Dragonhide Full Plate and then a +1 Wild Tower Shield (since in wild shape they are no longer wearing them but get their AC bonuses anyway, thanks to the wild magic property - oh, and this is not counting things like Magic Vestment or Barkskin), can fly and earthglide through dungeons with trivial ease, can abuse wild shape for all manner of poisons and other abilities with extreme DCs, can dismiss and acquire new animal companions for free by doing a 24 hour ritual and then proceed to build new animal companions in different ways for their encounters (which you can take very far), can summon hordes of beasts/elementals/etc. to murder whatever is in the druid's path (alongside the druid's own animal companion), summon some satyrs to dominate social situations, create entire fortresses with stone shape, move earth, and wall of stone, arm large numbers of people with ironwood and wood shape spells, scry out the positions of their enemies, interrogate animals, plants, even stone for secrets, cripple armies with winds, thrive in water and outer space (or even buried in stone), teleport massive distances through trees and plants, and loads more before we break into level 7+ spells. And neither of these two examples have even left Pathfinder Core or involved any feats (aside from Natural Spell, although there are a number of wild shape forms that can cast spells without that) or magic items.

Now a sufficiently well-played 6th level caster can readily reach T2 or even break into T1, but that isn't the norm. Reaching T2 generally involves some actual mastery of your class and cleverness (or rods of Dazing Spell metamagic, as ways to abuse this will swiftly make themselves apparent to you once you go down this road). And with game-breaking intent really anything can become T1, the most basic example being using Use Magic Device to activate, say, scrolls above your level (like Summon Monster IX if you feel like auto-winning combat, or Planar Binding, etc.), or using Magic Craftsman + Craft Wondrous Item feats with ranks in Craft (Candle) and making Candles of Invocation to obtain Gate spells for less than half price long before anyone should be casting 9th level spells (this is possible even in Core-only games). Another basic way to achieve T1 is to simply use a Leadership feat to get a T1 cohort. Even a Commoner can become Tier 3 simply through a sufficiently clever combination of feat selection, trait selection, skill usage, racials, and/or investing into a wide array of handy magical and non-magical items to give you a plethora of solutions to various forms of problems. Depending on how far you take this, you can enter T2 or T1 as a Commoner as well (even though the class does nothing for you). Highly clever and resourceful players tend to excel in just about any class even when they're not doing game-breaking tech. But I do not list these classes as T1, etc. simply because you can do this.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 02:29:40 PM by Power »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #192 on: July 11, 2020, 02:59:37 AM »
Not to mention, the discussions among many people about where they should sit on the list. Its not just one person and their opinion. There's 10 pages of discussions over the years of back and forth, tweaking things.

Of course, people are going to disagree w some of the spots. I feel like its usually its at most 1 tier up or down.
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #193 on: July 28, 2020, 10:08:11 AM »
I suppose I might as well explain why I moved Hunter down to T4. Basically, I'm not convinced the Hunter is that much more powerful or versatile than the Ranger. The Hunter suffers from being a spontaneous caster without an extra spells known favored class bonus wielding a spell list that emphasizes strong situational utility over raw power, and is essentially a martial class without any bonus feats aside from Precise Shot maybe who also has to deal with 3/4 BAB without the kinds of self-buffs other classes have to compensate for it. The full animal companion is still quite powerful (especially with Druid buffs - Skirmisher tricks are ridiculously limited post-errata), however, and he does get Ranger spells a full 3 levels before the Ranger does and Druid spells on top of that, but the Hunter is usually not played as a spellcaster with high Wis nor does he get full access to his spell list (as the Druid and Ranger do). So overall the Ranger makes a better martial, but the Hunter makes a better animal companion. A decent Ranger will also have Magical Knack magic trait, Boon Companion feat, and Monstrous Mount feat (skip mastery, get Griffon) to narrow those gaps while retaining full BAB, favored enemy, better hitdie, and combat style feats. A sufficiently skillful Hunter is T3, but so is a sufficiently skillful Ranger, Paladin, or Bloodrager.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of versatility out of the Hunter either. As a healer the Hunter cannot prepare situational spells on demand so he's healing with a Wand of Cure Light Wounds mostly, but at least he can learn Cure Light Wounds and spontaneously cast it with all his remaining spell slots at the end of the day. As an investigator the Hunter again suffers for not being able to prepare situational spells to locate routes or interrogate local wildlife/fauna/stones/etc, so he is left with Survival and Perception mostly. As a party face the Hunter has probably dumped Charisma and has neither the spells nor the class skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive) for it. As a scout the Hunter is quite passable with Stealth and Perception (which he can even augment a bit with spells and animal focuses), but he has no trapfinding (which can be obtained with the Trap Finder campaign-specific trait or Monitor Obedience (Imot) feat, but the Hunter usually needs his feats for his combat build). The Hunter has passable martial prowess (mostly through his animal companion), spellcasting, and some versatility, but it doesn't seem to hit the level of a T3 to me, unless you optimize. Generally speaking the Hunter seems to be competing more with the likes of the Paladin, Ranger, and Bloodrager rather than Inquisitor, Bard, Magus, etc. I may end up revising this if the spell selection is good enough.

Overall, the Hunter's big strength is a full animal companion and 6th-level casting drawing from both the Ranger and Druid lists, but it's a spontaneous caster without a spells known favored class bonus wielding a combined spell list that largely specializes in situational spells (if you aren't maximizing Wis for spell DCs) and some animal companion buffs which tries to act as a martial despite not having full BAB, good bonus feats, or strong self-buffs. The saddest thing about the Hunter has got to be that Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor, a regular Inquisitor with the animal domain and a Boon Companion feat, or worse yet, a Nature Fang Druid, all step all over the Hunter at his own job while he's busy comparing notes with the Ranger. Nature Fang Druid in particular is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 09:35:19 AM by Power »

Offline Kelenius

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #194 on: October 19, 2020, 10:28:07 AM »
I think you mixed up Medium and Mesmerist in the OP.

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #195 on: October 28, 2020, 06:07:43 AM »
You're right. Fixed.

Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #196 on: May 25, 2021, 09:12:52 PM »
Hunter moved back to T3 after closer analysis. The early spell access through the Ranger list has some bizarrely potent effects, with some powerful spells being available far too early (for example. Resist Energy, Wind Wall, Fickle Winds). So that brings us back to spellcasting prowess, martial prowess (through the animal companion primarily), and the versatility of a large amount of skill ranks.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 11:30:13 AM by Power »

Offline Nanashi

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #197 on: May 26, 2021, 04:42:25 PM »
I think Gunslinger may qualify as tier 4 past the initial levels (5/6+). Then it can minimize its faults (low reload times, misfire) and spam sheer damage (with no versatility at all).

Kineticist prob varies by element as much as some classes vary by archetype. Aether (Telekinesis) Kineticist is easily the strongest for versatility while having a good blast (able to select any physical damage type, so less concern about DR/resistance) and could be a weak tier 3. Fire (limited utility, very resisted element) and Wood (almost no utility talents printed for it and fewer good ones) could slip to tier 5.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #198 on: May 27, 2021, 08:06:01 PM »
i'm curious if you'd add the Omdura and Vampire Hunter?

they are 2pp material.

obvious, the Old Spice Gentleman is a joke class and wouldn't go on the tier list
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Offline Power

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Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
« Reply #199 on: May 31, 2021, 08:29:35 AM »
Haven't really added them although I suppose I could make an extra list or something.

Vampire Hunter is T4. Even with weakened inquisitor spell progression and spontaneous casting, it's still a T4. It doesn't get any bonuses to attack and damage, but it does have a full caster level (like the bloodrager) despite the delayed spellcasting progression, which means it can cast spells like Divine Favor, Resist Energy, Divine Power, and so on just fine. It also gets spells like Silence, Invisibility, Death Knell, Heroism, and Bestow Insight (if Human) and a number of divinations. It also has some decent combat options with Vampiric Focus, including Vampiric Agility (bonus movement speed and evasion), Vampiric Call (more useful at higher levels once you start cancelling and reapplying it each round for fresh temporary hitpoints), and Vampiric Resolve. Probably Vampiric Agility should be his first or 8th level focus (when Evasion kicks in). Vampiric Presence is interesting but the odds are the Vampire Hunter cannot afford to have a decent charisma modifier and there are regional traits to make social skills wis-based nowadays. And beyond that it still gets a few bonus combat feats. Honestly though, if you want to hunt vampires, you're better off playing a Ranger with Favored Enemy (Undead).

Omdura is a high T3, especially if it's a Half-Elf and thus benefits from Paragon Surge (through the Cleric list). Just about every invocation is good and worth using, and the Omdura can even activate them as a move action (and swift, but you want lesser metamagic rods of quicken spell for those actions) and at level 11 can use two of them at once. The Omdura also gets Lay on Hands, but the real prize is using it as an Antipaladin's Touch of Corruption (neutral alignment hurray) and combining that with a Conductive reach weapon (possibly a whip or scorpion whip, especially considering the Omdura gets her deity's favored weapon as a free proficiency). Divine Might is a neat perk to have (especially if you are neutral and can smite anything), and at level 18 it gets buffed into far stronger form (although by this point you are probably not playing martial anymore, but who knows, at this point you can stack all your martial invocations, touch of corruption, divine weapon, smite, and some spells for some rather massive combat prowess). Divine Weapon is useful even for non-martial omduras because of the Defending property it offers, and Brilliant Energy is always a good option to have. The real prize is probably the Chaotic Good alignment for the Holy and Vicious properties (+4d6 damage per hit, seems good), although the neutral alignment's Vorpal property can be used with a Cyclops Helm (or a couple of them) for a no-save no-roll instant kill, if your GM doesn't ban that.

Honestly would be curious to see an all Omdura party in action.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 02:42:19 PM by Power »