Author Topic: Sand Blaster  (Read 11072 times)

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Sand Blaster
« on: May 07, 2017, 03:28:26 AM »
Great. Someone pointed out alternative sources of sand so now I have to update the EVD.

SAND BLASTER
- MONSTER MANUAL 3 (3.5)
(click to show/hide)


SAND
- MONSTER MANUAL 3 (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

So... Contenders for being turned into ammo. Mostly I need to figure out the GP cost.

BLACK SAND
(click to show/hide)
I'm thinking this causes 1d4 points of negative energy damage and cloaks the target hit in a 5 foot area of darkness for a round.

LEECH SALT FLATS
(click to show/hide)
I'd say it just renders the target dehydrated on top of normal damage. Although could I take THIS:

LIQUID SALT
- SANDSTORM (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

And make a 5 pound dry version for the blaster? Sure, it'd be 1,000 gp a shot, but I'm going for sake of completeness here



MIRROR SAND
(click to show/hide)
Basically makes the target make a DC 10 Fortitude save or go blind for 1 hour.

MOONDUST
(click to show/hide)
SUFFOCATION IN A SANDSTORM
(click to show/hide)
Basically, this ammunition would be a one time DC 10 fort save or start to suffocate.

SLIPSAND
(click to show/hide)
If used as ammunition, I would assume it has the effect of getting hit with a grease spell for a round.

Now, for sake of completeness...

SAND PIPE
(click to show/hide)

SAND, BLINDING
- SECRETS OF XENDRIK (3.5)
Ammunition (Sand Powder)
(click to show/hide)

SAND, BURNING
- SECRETS OF XENDRIK (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

SAND, SLUMBER
- SANDSTORM (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

SAND, SUNSCALD
- SECRETS OF XENDRIK (3.5)
(click to show/hide)


Now then, to the discussion part.

I mentioned it in the editor's notes, can one use slumber sand with a sand pipe?
If I get 5 times the slumber sand, can I load a sand blaster and also do additonal damage? Since I'm firing 5 charges at once do I get more HD of "sleep" out of it?


-----

Also, modifying these to work with the sand pipe/blaster

EGGSHELL GRENADE, DUST
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
(click to show/hide)
The obvious question being, what happens if I use Mirror sand?

Also, assuming that 10 sling stones weigh 5 pounds, I think we can assume that if we get 10 charges of this, can we use it in a sand blaster?


EGGSHELL GRENADE, FLASHPOWDER
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
(click to show/hide)
The whole needing fire to ignite them is easily solved with a sand blaster mounted with:
WEAPON CAPSULE RETAINER
- COMPLETE ADVENTURER (3.5)
(click to show/hide)
And a quickflame capsule.

So what sort of effect would happen by loading 5 pounds of this stuff into my sand blaster that ignites the flash as it goes off?


EGGSHELL GRENADE, PEPPER
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
(click to show/hide)
Again, making into an ammo for a sandblaster. 10 changes = 5 pounds. Thoughts?

EGGSHELL GRENADE, POISON SMOKE
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
(click to show/hide)
See above trick with weapon capsule for ignition.

What happens if I use x10 the charges and load in a blaster?


GLOWPOWDER
(click to show/hide)

So I only need 5 charges to reach my weight requirements for loading into my sand blaster.
Any thoughts on how that should be handled with this material?


POWDERED SILVER
- COMPLETE SCOUNDREL (3.5)
(click to show/hide)
5 charges to make 5 pounds. Effects when loaded into my sand blaster?

FLOUR POUCH
- DUNGEONSCAPE (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

Now this one looks like it should work with a sand pipe. But if I load 10 packets into my sand blaster, should it do any damage? It's flour. Also, flour floating in the air becomes quite explosive. Just saying.



So:

1) your thoughts.
2) did I miss any contenders?
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2231
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2017, 02:04:31 PM »
Alright, let's break down that save DC on the sand blaster.  A sand giant has 15 HD and a 21 Constitution.  It looks like the sand blaster's DC could be 10 + 1/2 HD + Con modifier.  However, the sand giant champion adds 5 levels of fighter and 4 points of Constitution, yet the save DC (after errata) is only 24.  So that seems like the DC is 17 + Con modifier.  Much more useful at lower levels for the players!  And since a sand blaster is a large ranged weapon, a medium character could use it 2-handed as a full-round action (no attack roll means no -2 penalty for a mis-sized weapon).  Small characters need not apply.


On to ammo:

Black Sand - Target hit?  It's supposed to affect a 10' cone.  I'd say it should create magical darkness within that 10' cone, plus an extra 5 or 10 feet out.  And anyone who remains in or enters the actual cone is subject to further negative energy damage, since the sand is still there.  Possibly anyone who fails their reflex save, too, as they'd have sand inside their clothes and armour (both radiating darkness and ongoing damage).

Leech Salt - Changing the damage to dessication (so it adds dehydrated to anyone harmed) sounds reasonable.

Liquid Salt - So 5 uses packed in to affect a 10' cone?  Seems fine.  Maybe direct damage to anyone failing their save, and splash damage to everyone else.

Mirror Sand - Yeah, I'd go with what you suggested, for everyone within the 10' cone.

Moondust - Sounds about right, though I'd also add that anyone with sufficient protection (as mentioned in the dust description) would be immune to the suffocation effects.

Slipsand - I'd also make the area count as if the floor was Greased, probably until something scatters it, such as wind or a large enough creature passes through.
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2017, 02:46:21 PM »
I have always disliked Captnq's "editor notes" for a wide range of reasons. Maybe it's because he tries to do an informational listing but inserts his opinion in it. Maybe it's because he thinks changing the dust's color from 'brown' to 'black' does warrants additional houserules on something that already provides a stated mechanical effect flavored as partial blinding. Maybe it's because his opinions try to do stuff like pouring a liquid substance in a dust blowing system which really doesn't make sense. What I do know is Save DC's of Special Attacks as the Sand Blaster is listed use Racial HD, not Class Levels, so the guy agreeing with his houserules is also the guy that doesn't know how Save DCs work and you can take that for the grain of salt that they present them selves with.

Here is the point of fact. The Sand Blaster is an Exotic Ranged Weapon and you don't need houserules to come up with ways to use it. You simply need to think of your favorite Weapon Special Abilities, adding Morphing to turn your favorite Unique Weapon into a Sand Blaster, or interesting combinations from Class Features like Exotic Weapon Master's Close-Quarters Ranged Combat prevents you from being attacked from the Attack of Opportunity you provoke for using the Sand Blaster. Blowing anything other than sand, such as a really low amount of fine poisonous powder or corrosive water, is up to your DM and not us. We can suggest using supernaturally enhanced sand such as Black Sand, but you only gain the benefits those supernatural sands state they add, and trying to BS you with extras is just going to make you a munchkin that gets things banned off the table.

So to anyone else that wants to make a good handbook or guide on how to use the Sand Blaster, your opinion should not to be a substitution to the rules but an explanation on what the rules allow you to do (if even needed) and which options are good or bad along with an explanation of why you think so.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 04:53:50 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Nifft

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 324
  • Bad At Lurking
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2017, 05:03:00 PM »
How about good old Dust of Sneezing and Choking?

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2231
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2017, 06:04:22 PM »
SorO, the sand blaster is a manufactured weapon, not a racial ability, so having its DC tied to racial HD makes no sense.  And there is nothing actually stating that it is tied to racial hit dice, as well.

And I get that you don't like homebrew or houserules whenever possible.  What we suggest here is nothing more than that, suggestions for others to use.  Everyone can make their own evaluations for their own games.
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2017, 07:28:35 PM »
I have always disliked Captnq's "editor notes" for a wide range of reasons.

Hence why I include them as Editor Notes and have, and will continue to, encourage people to submit their own editor notes. Unfortunately, I do not have the time I once did to work on this project. When I stopped taking active role in it's maintenance I encouraged people to take over for me. Add your own notes. Your own flair. Just keep me in the loop so I can combine your work with mine.

I have never claimed to be the end all be all. In fact, a great deal of my notes are actually other people's opinions. I am a speed reader, but I still only  have so much time, so a great deal of the editor's notes have less than a few seconds of review before being included.

I have, and continue to express, that editor notes are the editor's OPINION. In many ways I have contradicted my self in many locations, because I have tried to express all points of view in ever situation. It is, as I repeatedly state, up tot he individual DM to make his choices what to, and not to, include. More than one note addresses the players with "You should totally take this!" and then followed by "DM, you totally need to nerf this!" What is unbalanced for one campaign is underpowered in the next. So, you may dislike my editor notes, however, nothing has ever stopped you from sending me a list of "Editor (SorO_Lost): [string of words]" Which as long as it at least is relevant to the individual entry, i will happily and gleefully add to the EVD.

I'm sad to say, in the years since I started this, I have only had a handful of contributors, and not a single person since me has desired to take over my work and start adding his own. Not one person has desired to start adding their own handbooks, or even take someone else's handbooks.

So, while you may dislike my Editor Notes, You have not given me a reason not to include them. You seem to have a problem with the CONTENTS of the notes, not the concept of the notes themselves. So, to which I say, "Feel free to send me any corrections you wish."

So to be clear, this will have to be it's own Handbook, and not an addition to the Weapon Section of the EVD. The Weapon Section of the EVD, while containing proposed exceptions, is as RAW as possible. Just like I did not add Extrapolated WSA into the main WSA, even though I have yet to hear anyone tell me that my calculations were wrong. Some things, while as accurate and close to original as possible, are just house rules. Very strongly tied to RAW, but not quite RAW.

The main reason for the EVD was the fact that there is no new material being put out. Specifically 3.5 original. I do not like many of the changes to Pathfinder. I do not begrudge them, I just don't like how they handle certain fundamental game mechanics. So, for me, this is the only way I will get new material to work with.

I still DM, even if the group only comes together infrequently, and given that it looks like Xen'drik is next on the menu, I'm interested in expanding the drow of that location. The discussion thread that mentioned the use of alternate sands in the blaster is interesting. By RAW, quite impossible. There are no mechanics or even solid implications for how to load alternative substances into a sand blaster or a sand pipe. So, if I'm going to exploring alternate uses, one must be willing to try and fail.

I am fallible and I love to fail, for without error there is no clear path to truth.

I take that same attitude in all my endeavors. Better to rush in and fail, then figure out how I failed, then to spend forever trying to figure out how to do something "just right". I may fail far more than anyone else, but I also get more accomplished then anyone I know.

Unless of course, you have been working on your own version of the EVD you have not shared with me. If so, please let me know, then I can combine to the two forthwith.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2017, 07:33:14 PM »
How about good old Dust of Sneezing and Choking?

Good point.

Dust of Sneezing and Choking
(click to show/hide)

Now, this is a cursed item, so I assume if you used it in a sand pipe, you would be within 20' of the 15' cone AoE. So would it effect you? Or, would using it in the sand pipe allow you to change the 20 foot spread into a 15' cone?

I do not think it would be of use with a sand blaster.

DUST OF APPEARANCE
- DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE (3.0)
- DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

Now, could the use of the sand pipe change the AoE to 15' cone? It already is stored ina  hollow bone tube. One could extrapolate that you could use this in a line, if you wished.

DUST OF DISAPPEARANCE
- DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE (3.0)
- DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

I would assume, that the fact it was not intended for AoE use, that this would not be a viable choice.

DUST OF DISPERSION
- MAGIC ITEM COMPENDIUM (3.5)
- MAGIC OF FAERUN (3.0)
(click to show/hide)

Again, Would it turn the AoE to a 15' cone?

DUST OF DISTURBANCE
- RACES OF EBERRON (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

Again, can be changed to a 15' cone?

DUST OF DRYNESS
- DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE (3.0)
- DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

Sine it's not AoE, i don't think it's viable ammo

DUST OF ILLUSION
- DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE (3.0)
- DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

Again, not AoE.

DUST OF IMMOBILITY
- ORIENTAL ADVENTURES (3.0)
(click to show/hide)

Now this is a odd one. Designed to be blown, it should work with a Sand Pipe, but on the other hand, it clearly is only for a single specific target. I would suggest that since the Sand pipe is a 15' cone, so maybe if we upgraded to say, x5 charges to load. not sure on the math on this one.

DUST OF NEGATION
- LORDS OF MADNESS (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

Again, can we turn it into a 15' cone?

DUST OF THE ZEPHYR
- ARMS AND EQUIPMENT GUIDE (3.0)
(click to show/hide)

Clearly has no used in a sand pipe or blaster.

DUST OF TRACELESSNESS
- DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE (3.0)
- DUNGEON MASTER’S GUIDE (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

Clearly of no use to either weapon.


PIXIE DUST
- ARMS AND EQUIPMENT GUIDE (3.0)
(click to show/hide)

Now, this is an odd one, for use in an AoE, but only on a surface. Otherwise it's to target a specific individual. Now, it does have an interesting mechanic, in so much that while it is AoE, it clealry only affects one target. So, we can extrapolate from this to have that if you do load Pixie Dust into a sand pipe, only one target can be affected. Since a 15' cone is an Area of 6 squares, we could then make the assumption that it would require 6 charges to make a single unit of Sand Pipe ammo out of Pixie Dust.

SAND PAINTING
(click to show/hide)

Included for sake of completeness, But I see no point to loading a blaster or pipe with a sand painting.

SKULLMARBLE
(click to show/hide)

So, can be ground up into a powder and up to three can be used on a single target. I would go with 6 in a pipe results in a cloud that does 1d6, but to every under in the AoE. By it's nature, I don't see it as ammo for the blaster.

SLASHING SAND
- MAGIC ITEM COMPENDIUM (3.5)
- SANDSTORM (3.5)
(click to show/hide)

I would say if you increased it by 50%, you could then load it into a sand pipe to cover a 15' cone with stone spikes, since you are increasing the AoE actually surface area by 50% So, total cost 1,500 gp.

Those are all the other items I could find with "dust" or "sand" related.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2017, 07:37:23 PM »
POWDER OF SILENT PASSAGE
(click to show/hide)

Don't see much use to using it in a blaster or pipe.

POWDER OF THE BLACK VEIL
(click to show/hide)

Now, you cast it into an area, but no matter where you cast it, it is centered on you. So, No point in loading into a sand pipe.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2017, 07:55:29 PM »
SMOKEPOWDER
(click to show/hide)

So, again, Sand pipe and a Quickflame weapon capsule. Thoughts on the result?
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2017, 12:47:31 PM »
SorO, the sand blaster is a manufactured weapon, not a racial ability, so having its DC tied to racial HD makes no sense.
Orly?

Because the Giant's state block expressly includes it as a Special Ability and uses that standard for the Save DC. So question, where in the rules does it state that it is a Light, One-Handed, or Two-Handed Manufactured Weapon? And if you want to use the picture, I think you need to look at how you can use Magical Items on Beholders as according to Dungeonscape's cover. :rolleyes

Fact is, you're making several assumptions on things because they sound good. To paint how dumb that is, look at Captnq's post.
Exotic Ranged Weapon Cost: 30 gp Damage (s): 1d6 Damage (m): 1d8 Critical: x2 Weight: 5 lb Type: S Ammo: Sand
The Sand Blaster specifically says it's a Large Exotic Ranged Weapon and it's damage isn't typed. By Captnq assumed it was Medium like how most other weapons are listed and incorrectly lists the damage, just like he assumes it also deals Slashing damage because most other weapons do not deal untyped damage. He made this assumptions based on what he perceives as normal but all he really did was just post incorrect information. And you're doing the same thing. So utterly convinced you have the full picture you're not even aware of how much of it you made up. And now you think you are trapped into rationalizing out a defense because you feel like you have to. But just like the other assumptions: you don't have to.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 12:49:33 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2231
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2017, 03:53:41 PM »
Quote from: MM3 p. 58
A sand blaster costs 30g gp.

Manufactured weapons are always given a cost, even if the cost is zero, such as a club or quarterstaff.  The sandblaster has a cost, and is categorized as a type of weapon that is not Unarmed Attack or Natural.  Care to show me ANY other creature with a special ability with those qualities and is not a manufactured weapon?  Care to show me ANY other manufactured item that uses Racial Hit Dice to set it's DC?  Didn't think so.

Yes, Captnq made assumptions that do not fit with the weapon's stat block.  My first post talked about how a PC could use it, with the idea that it has to remain large size in order to stay viable.  I have not made assumptions, but rather tried to reverse-engineer the item.  You, SorO, are making assumptions that it HAS to work one specific way, without providing any concrete data to support your claim.

And no, I'm don't think I'm "trapped into rationalizing out a defense".  I could have easily chosen not to respond at all.  Or, if you had presented me with a counter-argument that had solid points that convinced me I was wrong, I could have agreed with you.  It's been done before.   So once again, you made an incorrect assumption with no evidence.  In fact, this post is more of a counter attack to yours than an attempt to defend my position.
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2017, 08:08:34 PM »
Manufactured weapons are always given a cost, even if the cost is zero, such as a club or quarterstaff.
Unicorn horns and human bodies have costs too, are they a weapon?
Trick question, as an Improvised Weapon they as a matter of fact, are.
Care to show me ANY other creature with a special ability with those qualities and is not a manufactured weapon?
So the really funny thing here is we're talking about Giants here. Most of them have a Special Attack known as Throw Rock allowing them to pick up something with a raw material value, or catapult ammunition cost entry, like a chunk of stone and treat it as a Thrown Weapon. Including giving it a Ranged Increment & Damage entry without turning it into an Improvised Weapon. Heck in the hands of a Hulking Hurler it even gains a Save DC calculated by a nearly unprecedented Attack Bonus modifier.
Care to show me ANY other manufactured item that uses Racial Hit Dice to set it's DC?
You mean besides poison? You know, that's a good one.

I mean there are the channeling-like ones like a Chuul Lasher is a whip that hits people and forces a Save against a Chuul's Paralysis which is RHD based and there are WSA's like the Viper where your weapon simultaneously becomes a weapon and a poisonous creature which has a matter of fact means the weapon has a Save DC scaled by RHD. I think I'd rather just point out the obvious; looking for a carbon copy of the Sand Blaster is a waste of time unless it can prove you right and that's your burden of proof to provide and besides failing in that area it's not like there aren't precedents that the MM3's printing, and second pass Errata correction on this exact subject, are some kind of typo. Using a Sand Blaster is a Special Attack, like go ahead and try to determine the Save DC using nothing but the Sand Blaster's entry I'm sure it'll take you plenty of time, but I can wait. :)
Didn't think so.
I feel like I just chewed you out for assuming something in my last post and you're still not getting the point.

Well I suppose in that case you'll just assuming you're right no matter what then huh?
Well I know I cannot fix stupid and it just might be hypocritical of me to assume I could fix you.

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4241
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2017, 01:26:18 AM »
Quote
You, SorO, are making assumptions that it HAS to work one specific way, without providing any concrete data to support your claim.

Sorry to interrupt but this quote from Kethrian literally cracked me up because you basically said that providing the Sand Giant's own statblock apparently doesn't count as concrete data to support a claim about the Sand Giant's own stat block...

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2231
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2017, 02:29:33 AM »
@ketaro: I'm glad you had a good laugh.  Because it's really more that showing me a statblock whose very data we're trying to discern, due to information pointing to more than one possible outcome, can only point at one outcome.  Hey look, there's a T-intersection, so we HAVE TO turn left, since the other path doesn't exist.  See?  The sign clearly says so!

@SorO: And is the giant ability Rock Throwing a weapon?  No, it is a special ability that allows the use of special weaponry.  Rock Throwing does not have a gp cost.  The ammunition does, but the ability is not the rocks themselves, it is the ability to throw them.

What are the HD of black lotuses?  Because they must be insanely tough to produce DCs that high!  Oh, you meant natural poisons?  Meaning they're not manufactured?  Which means they don't qualify as a valid response to my question.

A chuul's paralysis ability is not a weapon, but rather something which needs a weapon as a vector.  I could have stated many such things to argue my point.  But they don't count, and you know you'd never let something like that slide.  So don't expect me to.  And a WSA that turns a weapon into a creature which then uses NATURAL WEAPON ATTACKS.  And uses the creature's own racial HD, not the wielder's.  Again you miss the mark.  Manufactured item, has save DC, DC is only set by ability score modifier, ACCORDING TO THE STATBLOCK'S OWN TEXT.  And you still stubbornly assume it's an innate racial ability.

And so, after you failed to give an adequate response to any of my questions, you again attack me directly with insults instead of my points which support my side of the argument.
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4241
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2017, 03:07:18 AM »
So I went back to read some of the problems being raised here. Since this has peaked my interest now.

Quote
SorO, the sand blaster is a manufactured weapon, not a racial ability, so having its DC tied to racial HD makes no sense.  And there is nothing actually stating that it is tied to racial hit dice, as well.

How does it not make sense? The only way to get a DC 24 on the Sand Giant Champion is if you calculate Base 10+1/2 RHD(15/2=7)+7(24 Con) = 24. The math, which is the same sort of math used by literally every calculation in D&D, apparently states that the DC is tied to racial hit dice. Numbers hold just as much ruling authority as words do in the books. Text is text.

But yanno what doesn't make sense?
Quote
However, the sand giant champion adds 5 levels of fighter and 4 points of Constitution, yet the save DC (after errata) is only 24.  So that seems like the DC is 17 + Con modifier. Much more useful at lower levels for the players!
That. Literally no reason for a completely random number like that to be the Base DC. Neither is there precedence created by any other weapon in this game for having a Base DC, before modifiers, to be anything but 10.

Quote
@ketaro: I'm glad you had a good laugh.  Because it's really more that showing me a statblock whose very data we're trying to discern, due to information pointing to more than one possible outcome, can only point at one outcome.  Hey look, there's a T-intersection, so we HAVE TO turn left, since the other path doesn't exist.  See?  The sign clearly says so!
Thank you, it was good :)
On to the much more charming part of your post, though; Of course you have to turn left, because the other path is homebrew. Of course there is only one possible outcome for the information presented in the only one, singular instance of a Sand Blaster in the entirety of D&D's printed official content; because it only shows up once. Which means you have to follow what the weapon claims it does because there aren't any alternative sources of Sand Blasters to compare it against.


As for all this alternative sand, powders, poison dust, whatevers as ammo... Well there's no problem there, you're just homebrewing some fun stuff to do with this randomly unique weapon that is entirely lacking in additional support outside the Sand Giant monster entry.

Offline snakeman830

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1091
  • BG's resident furry min/maxer
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2017, 12:11:21 PM »
So I went back to read some of the problems being raised here. Since this has peaked my interest now.

Quote
SorO, the sand blaster is a manufactured weapon, not a racial ability, so having its DC tied to racial HD makes no sense.  And there is nothing actually stating that it is tied to racial hit dice, as well.

How does it not make sense? The only way to get a DC 24 on the Sand Giant Champion is if you calculate Base 10+1/2 RHD(15/2=7)+7(24 Con) = 24. The math, which is the same sort of math used by literally every calculation in D&D, apparently states that the DC is tied to racial hit dice. Numbers hold just as much ruling authority as words do in the books. Text is text.

But yanno what doesn't make sense?
Is that based on Racial HD specifically, though?  Because if it's just based on "HD," that value would remain the same for the Sand Giant statblock, but it would be very different once you add class levels to the mix.
"When life gives you lemons, fire them back at high velocity."

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4241
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2017, 02:05:34 PM »
The sand giant champion has 5 class levels that are not being added in to the DC.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2017, 02:38:26 PM »
This was going to be a good thread. I was going to go through all of it and reply in the way the OP desired. But then I read the 3rd post.

The thread so far:
OP: "I'm a completionist and found that we can have more ammo for a wierd weapon"
Keth: "Here's me going through your very detailed post"
Soro: "I don't want to read because it's hard and I'm impatient. Instead, I'll just sh|t on the OP with my magic formula!"
  • Soro's Magic Formula: 1) I don't like your opinion so therefore 2) I'll accuse you of using houserules when trying to make sense of confusing RAW. Now I'll 3) split hairs over another possibility which 4) does not acknowledge the ambiguity of the topic. After adding 5) one useful sentence fragment, I'll say that 6) you should Stop Having Fun Guys because trying to optimize weak things I don't consider fun means you deserve to be called names.
(click to show/hide)
I could have sworn I had labeled this Magic Formula before...

Keth: "Why do manufactured weapons use RHD for DCs?"
OP: Have a long and nicely worded reply about how it's my own freakin' handbook and go be jealous of it somewhere else Soro or do the work yourself
Nifft+OP: "Dust should load like sand." Yes it requires a DM with a brain but I'd love to see someone argue seriously that it can't / won't / doesn't.
Soro: "Giants have Special Abilities that have their own DCs. Here's a red herring while I mock you for looking at the art in the books."
Keth: "Hey, um. This is a manufactured weapon. Answer the original question while I still think you are worth replying to."
Soro: "Unicorn horns are totally weapons as are human bodies. I'll just ignore the manufactured part and talk about Throw Rock. You're stupid!"
Ketaro: "Keth said something silly. He isn't looking at the stat block"
Keth: "Yes I am. But I'm still talking about manufactured weapons here. Answer the topic without insults."
Ketaro: "I'm confused. I've never seen a DC=10+x+mod format in D&D before. If x=7 I reject that D&D authors would ever do that. I'll not state why I think that those who disagree with me must be homebrewing an answer. After all, Soro got away with it."
Snakeman: "Uh, guys?"
Ketaro: "I think the stat block reads this way (but I won't say why)."

Me: I don't care. A DC difference of 3 or 4 or 7 doesn't matter. You're going to miss unless you have jacked con anyway. I will say that whichever side is "right" hasn't bothered to state the rules in order in a manner that forces a logical deduction. For all his supposed knowledge of 3e, Soro hasn't (or can't) do this and the OP has been so busy with actually generating good indexes that he hasn't bothered. I don't care who wins the pittance but let the race begin!

The OP is atleast right that what really matters is what you load the shooter with

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2017, 02:54:09 PM »
Really, here is my take.
Captnq: Captnq was Captnq again.
Kethrian: I love houserules.
SorO: I hate misleading inaccuracies, less pls.
Nfft: The Core Rule Books did it better.
Kethrian: I disagree, and I'll assume this is the houserule subforum so I have no idea why you're complaining about houserules.
Captnq: I know my notes are annoying, that's why I tag then in an even more annoying way. But since I've been doing this I've never seen anyone help add to a Handbook or even seen someone offer to take over an existing one, mostly because I'm blind and love to fail.
Captnq: Oh yeah, I should list all the dusts too.
Captnq: Oh yeah, I should list all the powders too.
Captnq: Oh yeah, I should list the powders I missed in a separate post, hope no one misses this post.
SorO: You should stop assuming less.
Kethrian: No.
SorO: You're a lost cause.
Ketaro: I laughed at Keth.
Kethrian: I am insulted so I will use overdrama to complain.
Ketaro: You just don't make sense.
Snakeman: I to forgot Class HD is ignored, page 6 of the MM1 under Special Attacks & Qualities right? I'll go look.
Ketaro: Yep, as SorO brought up, the Sand Blaster doesn't define a DC but using the Sand Blaster is listed as a Special Attack.
PBMC: I'm still butthurt over SorO form last week so Kethrian I support you purely for that reason, allow me to retort with ad hominem attacks.
SorO: I'm bored.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 03:07:11 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3346
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
Re: Sand Blaster
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2017, 04:22:30 PM »
I think the closest comparison is a Pixie's Special Arrows.  They're obviously arrows, but they're listed in the Special Attacks entry and receive a racial bonus to the Save DC.  Being arrows, another character could presumably pick them up and use or sell them himself, but we don't have any rules for how that would work so we'd have to extrapolate. 
Which seems to be what Captnq is doing here.  All the information the text gives us is listed right at the top in the OP.  We know the Sand Blaster is a Large Exotic Ranged weapon, and we know it's effects when used by a Sand Giant, but we know precious little else.  Because it's obviously a weapon, we can extrapolate with some certainty what some of its properties would be when used by a creature other than a Sand Giant, but we can't know for a fact.  Nor can we know the effects when loaded with material other than run-of-the-mill sand, though again we can extrapolate to some extent. 
Like SorO, I wish Cap would be a little more explicit when he veers from fact in to extrapolation, but I can hardly fault him for doing it the way he does.  Everyone has a different line for what's a "reasonable extrapolation" and what's just plain homebrew.  Better to list everything that could interact, and let individuals decide. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.