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Messages - Silveron

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1
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: Spell like abilities with no hands.
« on: May 09, 2018, 02:22:16 PM »
Ya, as Jack said. Page 7 Complete Arcane.

We're not worried about invocations at the moment. Only have two. Dark speech one (shatter), I would think that one is more verbal, and Devil's Sight that lasts 24 hours. It's the stuff like detect magic and light/darkness were more worried about.

2
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Re: Spell like abilities with no hands.
« on: May 09, 2018, 01:15:17 PM »
THANK YOU!

We are doing a sea adventure game. We have a Druid, a wereseal, a hengeyokai, and two regular characters who bought magic items that allow them to change shape. So we all have a form that can swim or fly, making it a big deal to lose spell like abilities.

Most of them are innate. Darkness, detect magic, fairy fire, etc, or class like eldritch blast, alter self from Binder pact magic. All the forms were using have appendages, so basic movements should still be possible, just more flipper then hand.

3
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder / Spell like abilities with no hands.
« on: May 09, 2018, 10:49:20 AM »
From what I have understood from 2nd-3.5 rules is spell like abilities do not require hand gestures.

I am even thinking back to the books where Shandril was asked to shoot shellfire from her busom, rear, eyes, knees, and she could.

Does anyone know of any specific rules that say otherwise? I know some are ranged touch attacks and such but that just method for attack.

Our dm is trying to say when our party members change forms any form that does not have hands they loses spell like abilities.

I have never heard of anything like this.

4
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 26, 2017, 07:44:06 AM »
Oh, thank you.

Didn't know about Mulhorandi divine minion. The guy who plays Druid was already talking about Master of Many Forms. The Ranger already knows of a build for maxing Animal Companion.

I just found out about.

Slyth
• –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom. Slyths are wise in the ways of nature and reasonably agile, but their amorphous forms are not especially strong.
• Medium size. Slyths have no bonuses or penalties due to size.
• A slyth’s base land speed is 30 feet. A slyth in amorphous form (see below) has a swim speed of 30 feet.
• Alternate Form (Su): As a standard action, a slyth can change shape, assuming an amorphous form. Any equipment the slyth is wearing or carrying transforms to become part of this new form. Material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though the slyth’s Dexterity bonus, deflection bonus, and any armor bonuses from force effects (for example, from the mage armor spell) still apply. In her amorphous form, she cannot be flanked or stunned and she is immune to critical hits, but she can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components. (This limitation does not rule out spells that the slyth may have prepared using the metamagic feats Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and Still Spell.) The slyth loses all other supernatural abilities while in amorphous form, and her magic items cease functioning. Her amorphous form is nearly fluid and boneless, enabling her to pass through holes or narrow openings as small as 2 inches in diameter. Resuming her normal form is a full-round action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A slyth can remain in amorphous form for up to 10 minutes per class level, but after resuming her normal form she cannot change again for as long as she spent in amorphous form.

• Water Breathing (Ex): A slyth can breathe underwater indefinitely.
• Immunities (Ex): Because of their shapechanging abilities, slyths are immune to polymorphing and poison.
• Resistances (Ex): A slyth has sonic resistance 5.
• Racial Bonuses: A slyth has a +4 racial bonus on Disguise, Escape Artist, and Survival checks.
• Weapon Familiarity: A slyth may treat flutter blades (see Chapter 5: Equipment and Magic Items) as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Elven, Gnome, and Terran (or by character region).
• Favored Class: Druid.
• Level Adjustment: +2.

This would make a great Warlock for a dungeon crawl since they do not lose (Sp).

5
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 25, 2017, 05:58:05 AM »
[snip]...
P.S. Speaking of Handbooks there are quite a few links to WOTC site that are no longer valid. Idk if they dropped all of it or if they just rearranged things so url needs fixed. Does no one do upkeep on them?

WotC killed the forum entirely. No way to fix those links anymore. The OP has to be the one to edit their posts, usually, so appending "archive." to the beginning of all the links to WotC web enhancements and such would be for...a mod maybe? They don't usually have the time AFAIK.

I usually just copy the link, then add the archive myself to get there.
I usually just copy the link, then add the archive myself to get there.
Many of the archives are currently down as well forcing you to use archiving websites :(

Oh, tyvm.

There used to be a really good race handbook I used on here but when I went to look for it, it was gone. I thought it must have been one of those links.

The actual premise of our next game is our group is going to be a traveling animal circus. You know, dogs that dance on hind legs, house cat jumping through flaming hoops, bear that rides a tricycle, and some more monstrous creature seemingly tamed into preforming some trick. Like a lion tamer sticking his head into a lions mouth.

Except the animals are all the players in different forms. We have a few henchmen who stay with the circus at all times, but kind of like mon-fri the players adventure/quest/do tasks for townsfolk, sat-sun big performances to earn the group money. Part of the Mon-Fri includes back alley deals being watched over by the innocent cat cleaning itself. The little bird on the mayors windowsill watching where he hides his gold. Taking in all the little useful information, like when the Baker goes down to his shop to start the bread for the day, the neighbors teenage son creeps up the back steps and joins the Bakers wife in bed.

Intel gathering and small weekday performances for kids is how the DM is dealing with the 3 floaters we have in our game. Every game ends in town or camped. So if someone does not show up to next game, they pack muled our loot back to town to sell, buy items for us, do performances. Fits into the story of the game better then just saying one of our party has sudden onset agoraphobia and now lives in our bag of holding. Plus at all times we are earning gold or intel that can lead to gold, as well as he can give the missing players exp for what they do.

We do not want to all be Druids and we are starting at ECL 3. So that's why the topic on racial alternate forms.

So far we have:

Imp - Alternate Form: Alternate Form (Su): An imp can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar. (DM allows them to be Neutral and we have had someone play one before.)

Quasit - Alternate Form (Su): A quasit can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each quasit can assume one or two forms from the following list: bat, Small or Medium monstrous centipede, toad, and wolf.

Tibbit - Feline Transformation (Su): At will, as a standard action, a Tibbit can transform into a house cat.

Hengeyokai - Alternate Form (Su): Possible animal forms include badger, carp, cat, crab, crane, dog, fox, hare, monkey, raccoon dog, rat, sparrow, and weasel. (Picked at creation.)


For Something more monstrous:

Pseudonatural Creature Template: Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque tentacled mass or another appropriately gruesome form determined by the Dungeon Master.

Then there is also Anthropomorphic Animals from Savage Species. If anyone wants to just stay animalish all the time.


I like the premise, we have talked about animal party before since more then once we have had 2x ranger and 2x druids.

6
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 23, 2017, 08:52:33 AM »
To use your own Affirmative from an Negative premise: You left out Wild Shape and Feline transformation and a few others I am sure.  To site all forms of transformation as being in play when the only one that is is Alternate Form.

"The subject retains its own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities. The subject can cast spells for which it has components. It needs a humanlike voice for verbal components and humanlike hands for somatic components. The subject does not gain the spell-like abilities of its new form. The subject does not gain the supernatural abilities or the extraordinary abilities of the new creature." ~Polymorph Other

Congratz, we are back to the 4th post where according to your interpretation a werewolf losses the supernatural abilities of Alternate Form (SU) and is now forever a wolf.

Alternate From is not Polymorph Self/Other/Object/Baleful. "Like Polymorph" is given as an example. If you wish to go over all 3.0-3.5 content and rewrite all "like" examples as to be interpreted as "WORD FOR WORD ONLY" maybe that can be your next handbook.

Alternate From is also not Alter Self. Where your pulling that from I have no idea.

All your citations are spells. We are not using spells to transform we are using Race SU ability. So..um...can ya...um...see the...um....FLAW... In trying to say we lose SU. Even Wild Shape is SU. Good thing Alternate From is not Ploymorph or no change in shape would be possible.

Claiming I used Affirmative from an Negative premise then turning around and doing it your self is cute, bravo.

And for bonus points, as you were told on the last page: "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature that has a template." ~MMV & "A creature can’t use one of these abilities to take the form of a creature with a template." ~RC header to Alternate Form / Change Shape.

As I was told??? You mean as I said in post: 3, 5, 16. You conveniently left out the second part.

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well. -  Alternate Form (SU)

Ouroboros. Template change carry's over even when it says it does not. Per Alternate Form, Aquatic Druid Wild Shape (SU) into a Bear. No change in template added subtype takes place, The Bear is still aquatic subtype and can breath underwater.

Simple rule shortsightedness as why 3.0 you could gain a template for free, but added later in 3.5. Yet again still shortsightedness because they didn't take inherent templates into consideration.

Dm's ruling, as with most things, as if inherent template would carry over in full. RAW ruling that part of it does because type and subtype can make significant changes.

So your statement is wrong, illogical, and without any citations to support.

DItto. I can cite all kinds of irrelevant data too but, no need to, you did already.

So your whole post of irrelevant spells does nothing but prove my point or did you not even notice you were saying all (SU) change in forms would lose (SU) ability and be permanent. You kind of dropped the ball in that argument.

This feeble attempt of an argument seems like your just trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

Your just not happy with leaving it up to the DM.

You have to be right.

So fine, your right.

You are the unquestionable ruler of all D&D and everyone who ever plays D&D, past, present, and future, must all defer to only your interpretation of the rules and are not allowed to have an opinion of their own. Nor are the DM's allowed to make any rulings on their own. Even those whose have never heard of you or minmax board. Seems you have plenty of free time to take on this task.

I on the other hand, have better things to do.

So feel free to post another weak argument just so you can claim the last word. Its all yours.

I hope it stakes your ego.


P.S. Speaking of Handbooks there are quite a few links to WOTC site that are no longer valid. Idk if they dropped all of it or if they just rearranged things so url needs fixed. Does no one do upkeep on them?

7
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 21, 2017, 08:08:50 AM »
that's your problem, you think that your 'race' applies basically everything to your alternate form also.

it doesn't.

the alternate form is not your base race. its just that, an alternate form.
the ability tells you what you keep and what you don't.
but that doesn't mean that the alternate form can't be augmented at all. stuff like cat's grace, etc. can still grant you bonuses as long as you qualify (as with everything).

ex. a malaugrym does not have neh-infinite base races, but it does have neh-infinite forms.

No, I see what your saying. That's why I said baring any disagreement about ability scores.

The better way to say it is not that the templates carry over to the new from, its that they are never lost in the first place.

Alternate From says nothing about loosing feats, special ability's, skills, quality's gained from type/subtype, etc. Just as you said. This is why I said there seems to be no argument that Tibbit retains everything, because they are the not same as Hegneyokai's ability score change over. They have whatever the modified strength score would be -8.

As for Hegneyokai there is basically two ways to see it.

The Hegneyokai's base stats are changed to those on the table, when in animal form, and are subject to ability modifiers (such as racial/template modifiers, which are not a point buy system, since you have no say about the # increased/reduced or where they go, unlike the entirety of how a point buy system works).

The second way is, you see the Hegneyokai's animal form as if its a second entity and the base scores are listed as is without any modification from race/template. Even though any modification to INT/WIS/CHR might still remain in effect because they carry over unaltered.

I have always seen both these ways. I am just not arrogant enough to claim that my interpretation of the rules are absolute and no one else can see them any other way. That's why I have repeatedly said I am willing to agree to disagree. No matter what is said on this forum its not up to anyone on here. Its up to the DM of anyone's game.

Feats however, are a different matter.

Quote from: Player's Handbook, page 87
A character either has a feat or does not.

Regardless of form, Feats should be constant (because the are also not a point buy system.) Does not matter if its a Feat+ or Flaw-, it should still remain in effect regardless of form like the rest do. You can take Flyby Attack feat and it would be completely useless in humanoid form, but it still counts as a feat, and if you gain flying from a potion/magic item/spell, you still gain access to it because the forms do not have separate entry's for feats.

Kind of like if it was -1 STR ability dmg from dealing with an undead or being poisoned. Change in from does not cure it, you would just be even more worse off because animal form has even less STR to be drained. It would remain, no matter what from is taken, until its cured or one day passed. You would still be poisoned.

But... Hey again, to each their own. I see it as nothing more trying to cheat, but then again some DM's allow PUN-PUN shenanigans. While others would scream "NO WAY!" at you as soon as you got the first Pun out of your mouth.

C'est la vie


8
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 17, 2017, 07:58:28 AM »
Wish I could take credit for it myself but one of the people in my group last night just explained templates to another newer player in the absolute best way I have ever heard.

"Templates change your race, you now basically become bi or multiracial."

If you look at templates like that then the inherent template + base race combo is now just treated as your whole new race and can not be separated.

So, baring any disagreement about ability scores, all other factors such as feats, skills, special abilities, etc., should carry over simply as your race.

9
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 15, 2017, 08:48:35 PM »
It's like Silveron thinks the option to become a fluffybunny is modified by something that doesn't affect Special Abilities, or even if it did he illogically thinks he can apply X+2 to a later used set-to-Y ability, probably both even through you can't on either one of those.

The bunny example was using polymorph and I did say it is more of a massive change.  As for your X/Y, if you wanted to say that upon level up if I spend the +1 to STR/DEX/CON on sparrow that I could not go back and also spend it on Human form, I completely agree with that. This is different then Feats/Flaws that are always active. If you have Greater Strength and your Str is reset to  1 you still have the Feat, it does not go away. Same with Flaw, as a DM, if a player had -2 to Str flaw and changed into a sparrow. I would give them a Str 0 and per rules say they are too weak to even lift their own body. I always have written down my racial adjustments (including template) down on my character sheet. I see those same as the feats. If the stats reset they would still apply. I see no rules that say otherwise, but I admit it depend how you see the rules. Race and template changes have never been a called a point system by any group I have known over they years. They are always treated as a modification to base points.

I have already said I am willing to agree to disagree. I am not trying to convert the unwilling. Are you not happy unless you do?

In either case there are four, now five, people contributing to this thread.

Hmmm, and two, no three of them are in the Handbook club. Funny that.

And some how this is a thing.
My question was do templates carry over into to different forms? I think the consensus is: Yes.

That was my bad. I am sorry. Distracted and didn't notice I never finished my thought or deleted it by mistake. I had meant to have under that: Except for forms that list new base scores.

I have been talking about more then just Hegneyokai from the start. For Tibbit the ability scores stay, as is, upon change of form except for making the change of -8 to Str and +2 added to Dex. So the changes from template to stats remain in effect. No one has said otherwise, just sparrow, sparrow, sparrow. So took that, at least for others then Hengeyokai, there was an agreement they stayed.






Edit: Oh, quick off topic question for anyone. I swear in one of the Dragon mags there is an good undead race that can reproduce by placeing one of there own bones into a corpse.

(Insert massive amounts of "Boneing" and related jokes here)

Anyone know what this race is called/where it is?

10
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 15, 2017, 09:16:20 AM »
The OA Hengeyokai entry literally says that you assume the physical ability scores indicated in the table.

Quote from: OA, page 11
Hengeyokai have the size, speed, AC, damage rating and physical ability scores shown on Table 1-3
.
Quote from: OA, Table 1-3, page 12, the physical stats of a sparrow
1 23 10
The latter are listed in the following order: STR, DEX, CON.
I have never argued that you do not get these scores. My only argument is they are base scores, not set in stone, and can be modified. You even finally admitted it in your P.S. but of course you used the only score that would be unaffected by change, making it sound like it backs up your claim that they can't be modified.

Do you not admit that if you had the Pathetic Flaw in Dex that the -2 Dex would carry over into Sparrow form? Dropping the 23 to 21. Exactly the same if you wanted to go Positive with a Greater Strength Feat +1 Str would carry over. Making the 1 into a 2 Str. Proof that the scores can be modified.

A Clockwork Template (Effigy creature, in Complete Arcane), is an construct. Thus a Clockwork Hengeyokai (transformer noise) turns into a Clockwork Sparrow Hengeyokai. So, le poof, be gone Con store in OA, Table 1-3, page 12. Completely and utterly irregardless of what the table says they do not gain a Con score of 10. Why? Because they remain a Construct. They are not a living creature, the change of form does not alter that. Proof that the scores can be modified.

I think that may be where your stuck. You must be in a rut thinking in terms of Polymorph. To give another example: An Elf polymorphed into a Human and mating with another Elf would have Half-Elf children, because they are no longer an Elf. However, an Elf in the form of a Human only appears as a Human and would still have Elven children. Change in form does not change what you are inherently, its only appearance that changes.

Lets go back to the top.
My question was do templates carry over into to different forms? I think the consensus is: Yes.

Feats, special abilities, etc. all seem to carry over. There even seems to be an agreement that Ability score changes also take place where base scores are not listed. As with the Tibbit, where the change in form just lowers str by -8 and +2 is added to dex. Where Half-Giant Were-Wolves can also exist.

So, per Alternate Form (Su):

A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

I should write the company, I have found the first short sighted wording in the rules!!! They did not take players using inherent templates into consideration when it wrote it. They just wanted to make sure you could not gain a template for free or at will. It should say:

A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a different template then they already have, if any.

Because the very first bullet point of Alternate Form is:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

Irrevocable proof that inherent templates do carry over with all changes Type and Subtype can drastically make to a character. Example: A Hengeyokai regardless of what form he is in always stays a Humanoid Type (Per 3.5 update) with Shapeshifter Subtype and is acceptable to Charm Person. Even while in animal form. While a Half-Fiend Hengeyokai becomes an Outsider Type with Shapeshifter Subtype and is now immune to Charm Person.

I am not sure why these rule appear to cause so much confusion.

You seem to be the only one confused. Your whole and only argument against changes being made, to Hengeyokai only, is "There is a table OA, Table 1-3, page 12." Yes, there is, good job in finding it.  Saying they can only be what they are listed on the table then P.S.ing and saying they can be changed,  has the effect of canceling out your own point. Word for word as you quoted below.

Quote from: OA, page 11
Hengeyokai have the size, speed, AC, damage rating and physical ability scores shown on Table 1-3

Um... Where exactly are you getting any supporting information that these scores are not base and can not be modified? What page does it say this? Yes, you change your scores to what animal type of Hengeyokai you are as per table. I never said you do not do this. However, Then you modify them by whatever factors you have, absolutely nothing says otherwise. Again, you even agreed, without agreeing by using Str, in your P.S. that they can be modified.

I have given my proof in multiple examples where not only can they be modified but, depending on the template, a score on the tables can be completely ignored all together. You have given no supporting information at all, just the page number of a table.

So, I am sorry. If you can't supply actual information that say otherwise, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree.


Edit: Friend just reminded me of the Multiheaded Template, where the different heads can also have different subtypes. So a Multiheaded Hengeyokai would still retain both heads in animal form and both subtypes.

11
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 11, 2017, 08:44:38 AM »
I went with Dark and Draconic Templates because I thought most would know them, but lets try a different one...

If I made a Corpse Creature Hengeyokai and Templates do not carry over. Then in both Hybrid and Animal form they would become a living creature. If you can not see how broken that would be...

A Hengeyokai is always a Hengeyokai, they are a Hengeyokai in humanoid form, a Hengeyokai hybrid form, and a Hengeyokai Animal form. From birth they are meant to exist in multiple forms. All three forms are natural states for them. They can speak to their own kind. While a dwarf polymorphed into a fluffy little bunny rabbit is now a fluffy little bunny rabbit till the day they die. They do gain the feats of a rabbit but they can not even speak to them. It is a completely unnatural state for them and given enough time they could forget they were even a dwarf. (Cackler)

If forms that do list base scores are permanent and can not be modified, then upon leveling up while in Sparrow from, I could not add +1 to Dex? What about flaws? Could I take the Pathetic Flaw (-2 to ability score) twice, yet since the scores are permanent and can not be modified, I would be completely unaffected by them in Sparrow from? Broken and Broken.

So ether they can be or they can't be modified. A feat is just as much a part of a character as an inherent template. In terms of subtype all three forms gain the dragonblood subtype. He does not become a true sparrow, just form changes to fit a sparrow mold. So a severed arm would carry over to all three forms but the innate ability's granted by his feats and own blood would not???



12
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 10, 2017, 02:16:54 PM »
I was correcting myself regarding the potential of that clause; if Alternate Form stripped templates, then when a lycanthrope changed forms, he'd lose the lycan template, thus being unable to change forms (or stuck as a wolf/hybrid)

Ah, Sorry. Misinterpreted what you were saying.

Long story short: Your physical ability score adjustments from templates do not carry over if you Polymorph or use the kind of Alternate Form described in the Hengeyokai entry I linked.

It is not Polymorph. It just says "Like Polymorph" to give you basic understanding of the process. If this were true Polymorph per information you linked:

     Natural abilities include armor, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, swoop and rake, and constriction; but not petrification, breath weapons, energy drain, energy effects, etc.), and similar gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, etc.).


You would gain feats of the animal upon transformation. Hengeyokai do not. Every bird that I have seen have at least two feats, always Alertness and most of the time Flyby Attack or Weapon Finesse.

Per Polymorph Other: When the polymorph occurs, the creature's equipment, if any, transforms to match the new form. If the new form is a creature that does not use equipment (aberration, animal, beast, magical beast, construct, dragon, elemental, ooze, some outsiders, plant, some undead creatures, some shapechangers, or vermin), the equipment melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.

Per Lycanthrope: Alternate Form (Su): A lycanthrope can shift into animal form as though using the polymorph spell on itself, though her gear is not affected.

Now, Per Alternate Form (Su): The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

So, the Sparrow scores are Base only and can be modified exactly like the Hengeyokai base.

This would include the inherent Template modification to Str.

13
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 09, 2017, 12:32:13 PM »
I think that is more to prevent free templates at will in transformation. If you could pick and choose every time you changed that would be very broken. Would be interesting and fun though.

I ment more (and understood from your clause) that if you had no inherent template and wanted to turn into a bear you could not just pick to turn into a dark bear because your on the plane of shadow or a half-giant bear just because you wanted something stronger. No free further modification from the alternate form by selecting a templated version of the same form.

Otherwise, an inherent template would be you (for all intents and purposes) including your natural and alternate forms. Else you would also lose all stat, ability, and other bonus at change, as well as your CR and LA would change as well. Would you gain free levels when you change forms and lose the LA?

To use a double template, I would expect a Dark Werewolf to have a Dark Humanoid form, a Dark Hybrid form, and a Dark Wolf form. It's all the same being. So same for single template, a Draconic Tibbit would have a Draconic Humanoid form and a Draconic Cat form.

What did you mean by lycanthropes couldn't change forms?




14
Min/Max 3.x / Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 08, 2017, 06:43:52 PM »

Quote
A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.
might prevent the template from persisting through the change. Though the alternate form is not providing the template, so it's not perfectly clear to me.

I think that is more to prevent free templates at will in transformation. If you could pick and choose every time you changed that would be very broken. Would be interesting and fun though.

15
Min/Max 3.x / Templates and racial multiple forms.
« on: May 08, 2017, 10:04:38 AM »
Several races both Dragon mag and books have multiple forms from the start. Tibbit, Hengeyokai, etc. Most of these are referred to as "Spirit Transformations", normal form (and gear) shimmers out and in its place is the new form. "Like Polymorph" Not the bone snapping and muscle tearing of some were-templates where the gear drops or must be removed.

I always believed that template changes, such as dark, draconic, etc., would carry over to the new forms as well.

For example: A Hengeyokai transforms into a Sparrow with a Str of 1. Now a Draconic Hengeyokai would become a Draconic Sparrow with a Str of 3 and be able to fly carrying a light load of up to 10lbs. Nothing game breaking but a tiny size sparrow would be able to pick a heavy iron key ring, full of keys, and fly it over to friends in a jail cell, etc.

I can understand a forced transformation, from a spell or something, might remove a template as long as they are locked in an alien form. Other then that templates would always carry over to the additional forms, correct?

16
Gaming Advice / Re: Monsters that have stolen or removed souls. 3.x
« on: November 16, 2014, 02:48:22 PM »
Oh, thank you thank you, that will do nicely.

Without giving too much away, because I know a player reads these forums, the two main reasons necromancers practice is for power or to try to concur death. In my campaign there is one who is trying to gain power quickly. So not only is he practicing necromancy on nearly every dead body he comes across but also the living. In fiendish codex's souls are currency so it's another avenue for power as well as thanks that spell gaining favor by providing body's to be inhabited.

17
Gaming Advice / Re: 3.5 - Armor that reforms to fit different forms.
« on: November 16, 2014, 02:06:59 PM »
I remember reading about some item other than armor, shield, or bracers that could be enchanted as if it were for one of the classes or prestige classes that can't wear armor. That's why monk came to mind first. Maybe it was a robe.

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Gaming Advice / Re: 3.5 - Armor that reforms to fit different forms.
« on: November 16, 2014, 12:44:07 AM »
You just quoted that the Wilding Clasp also states "when you use Wild Shape" and I do not see bracers working well strapped to the birds wings.

With races, classes, transition classes, feats, magic items, spells, and so on that can allow characters to change form, were kind of lacking in magic items go along with that. I did know I was missing something, the other Shapeshifting armor enhancement in the oriental adventures book. It's only +1 enhancement and it just allows the enhancement bonus of the armor to carry over converted as a deflection bonus. So if nothing else it's a cheaper alternative to the Wild enhancement for lower levels.

Maybe I am going about this the wrong way thinking armor. I think I read somewhere about an amulet that you can put bonuses that are normally only for shields and armor on. It may have been for monks???

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Gaming Advice / 3.5 - Armor that reforms to fit different forms.
« on: November 15, 2014, 12:06:19 PM »
My character is a Hengeyokai, so he has three forms, humanoid, hybrid, and animal. When he changes form all his gear, clothes, rings, boots, backpack, etc., all meld into his new form and vanish, any magic effects granted by that gear no longer work.

In the d20 book, Anger of Angels, there is an armor enhancement you can add on for 8,000 gold called Multiform. No matter what physical form you take the armor would adapt and reform as if it was perfectly crafted to that new form.

I can't use it. The DM is only allowing standard books, no d20, so all other 3.0-3.5 books are fare game but no d20. So does anyone know of an armor enhancement, magic item, etc. that can replicate Multiform?? I am just wanting to carry some armor and maybe some other armor enhancements over into animal form. I have seen some druid armor that will change form but it states wild shape so I do not know if that would work since it states a specific supernatural ability druid get.

I know of the Wild enhancement, +3 so an addition cost of 9,000 to standard armor, so it might have to work if I can find nothing better, that lets you keep armor and enhancement bonus of the armor, but if I had a purely cost based special ability added to the armor like Shadow for +5 to hide, it would not function while in animal form. I also know of Shapeshifter’s Armor but its 400k so not going to happen anytime soon. Plus it just says it grants the armor bonus, it does not say it reform, so no better than Wild.

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Gaming Advice / Re: Monsters that have stolen or removed souls. 3.x
« on: November 15, 2014, 10:34:25 AM »
Thanks for the reply. I did a ton of research in the books too and found noting as well. In the fiendish codex's there is a lot of talk about souls but nothing about living creatures having their soul removed. I had hopes in one of the undead campaigns someone might have run across something.

I will have to figure out what effects this could have. I had already been thinking something like the soulless person would lose their will and become thrall like and the longer they are without the soul the body more the body would sicken and eventually become something like a Lemure, but not as strong or have the resistances a Lemure has.

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