ways to cast epic spells pre 21

[Ryabede]

I'm sure there are ways to do this, but I'm curious how many.
excluding dragonwraught, anyone have ideas?
~specifically spells~

[faeryn]

None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.

[KellKheraptis]

None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.

Well, that's not entirely true...Dusk Giants can exceed 20 HD, and it's easy enough to turn into one as an Incantatrix or Red Wizard >.>

[SorO_Lost]

There are only two ways to obtain Epic feats

Acquiring Epic Feats
Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:
At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.
Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.

So you have to be 21st level or use Epic Progressions.

And in order to use Epic Progressions

Epic Level Basics
Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.

You need to technically be higher than the 20th level since even if it granted a Bonus Feat at the next level you'd still be 21. All through to be fair, the game doesn't really say you are to stop at the 20th level so there really isn't anything stopping you. Just take your 21st level.

Epic is an arbitrarily cut off point because most forum members cannot approach the topic of Epic Spells without devolving into a pissing contest through I think there are a few people here that could rationally help you out if you wanted.

[KellKheraptis]

There are only two ways to obtain Epic feats

Acquiring Epic Feats
Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:
At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.
Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.

So you have to be 21st level or use Epic Progressions.

And in order to use Epic Progressions

Epic Level Basics
Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.

You need to technically be higher than the 20th level since even if it granted a Bonus Feat at the next level you'd still be 21. All through to be fair, the game doesn't really say you are to stop at the 20th level so there really isn't anything stopping you. Just take your 21st level.

Epic is an arbitrarily cut off point because most forum members cannot approach the topic of Epic Spells without devolving into a pissing contest through I think there are a few people here that could rationally help you out if you wanted.

Note the bolded - I'm sure Sor0 and myself (and likely Phaedrus) could bust out a mythal with the best of them (one to rival Jaerom Darkwind's even), though fair warning - while rational, SANE is completely out the moment you invoke the magical M word.

[phaedrusxy]

Gate in an Elder Titan, and have it cast Epic spells for you. All you need is 9th level spells and CL shenanigans.

[linklord231]

None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.

How do you figure? 

EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.

You don't have to be a True Dragon, and "old age" is an age category for everyone regardless of whether you believe the 12 age categories for Kobolds printed in Races of the Dragon are fluff or crunch.

[faeryn]

None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.

How do you figure? 

EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.

You don't have to be a True Dragon, and "old age" is an age category for everyone regardless of whether you believe the 12 age categories for Kobolds printed in Races of the Dragon are fluff or crunch.

How do I figure? The epic feats rules state it plane as day... "available to characters of 21st level or higher" epic spells require the Epic Spellcasting feat to cast... so even as a Dragonwrought Kobold until your level 21 you can't cast epic spells without breaking rules...

Sure you could summon something that can cast them for you... but that's not really you casting epic spells... and more than likely your DM is going to determine what spells the summoned entity is capable of casting... If your DM doesn't want your summoned entity to cast epic spells they may very well tell you "it doesn't have the feat" and who would you be to argue?

If you want to cast epic spells you have to be lvl 21 or higher.

[KellKheraptis]

None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.

How do you figure? 

EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.

You don't have to be a True Dragon, and "old age" is an age category for everyone regardless of whether you believe the 12 age categories for Kobolds printed in Races of the Dragon are fluff or crunch.

How do I figure? The epic feats rules state it plane as day... "available to characters of 21st level or higher" epic spells require the Epic Spellcasting feat to cast... so even as a Dragonwrought Kobold until your level 21 you can't cast epic spells without breaking rules...

Sure you could summon something that can cast them for you... but that's not really you casting epic spells... and more than likely your DM is going to determine what spells the summoned entity is capable of casting... If your DM doesn't want your summoned entity to cast epic spells they may very well tell you "it doesn't have the feat" and who would you be to argue?

If you want to cast epic spells you have to be lvl 21 or higher.

Limited Wish/PsyRef/Reality Revision/et. al.  Fuck your feats, Mr. Titan

[linklord231]

None that are legal... all methods that would allow it involve misreading or ignoring rules... you must be Epic Level before you can cast Epic spells, period... including with dragonwrought.

How do you figure? 

EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.

You don't have to be a True Dragon, and "old age" is an age category for everyone regardless of whether you believe the 12 age categories for Kobolds printed in Races of the Dragon are fluff or crunch.

How do I figure? The epic feats rules state it plane as day... "available to characters of 21st level or higher" epic spells require the Epic Spellcasting feat to cast... so even as a Dragonwrought Kobold until your level 21 you can't cast epic spells without breaking rules...

If you want to cast epic spells you have to be lvl 21 or higher.

The very next sentence says "Dragons of at least old age can also choose these feats, even if they have no class levels."  So if you're a Dragon, and you're at least Old age, then you can choose epic feats. 

[SorO_Lost]

Minor nitpick, I always choose Epic Spellcasting with every level I take.
Unfortunately what I choose and what I get (and can use) are not always the same thing. 

And the specific requirements of the Feats still hold priority over any general rule that determines availability anyway.
So... Now that you've lost your RAW argument do you think you stand a chance in hell winning a more intent based one?
Like I got one, prove when it said "dragons" is explicitly meant the mechanical Dragon Type. 

[DavidWL]

Note that while being a Dragon will let you get access to Epic feats, you still need to meet the other requirements.

In particular, for "Epic Spellcasting" you need a skill at 24 ranks and 9th level spells.  Lots of ways to get fast access to 9th level spells, but for skill ranks, I can think of only 2:
1.  "Primary Contact" from cityscape, which will give 1 extra rank and costs 2 feats.
2.  Bloodlines - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

For example, a loredrake dragonwrought kobold with 5 levels of bloodlines can take epic spellcasting at 16th level.

Best,
David

[KellKheraptis]

Note that while being a Dragon will let you get access to Epic feats, you still need to meet the other requirements.

In particular, for "Epic Spellcasting" you need a skill at 24 ranks and 9th level spells.  Lots of ways to get fast access to 9th level spells, but for skill ranks, I can think of only 2:
1.  "Primary Contact" from cityscape, which will give 1 extra rank and costs 2 feats.
2.  Bloodlines - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

For example, a loredrake dragonwrought kobold with 5 levels of bloodlines can take epic spellcasting at 16th level.

Best,
David

The hungry hungry hippo dusk giant method works without bringing the dragonwrought kobold argument into the equation, and with a couple PAOs is completely RAW legal, if REALLY cheesy (like, I won't touch it...and I'm one of the worst offenders on here).

[linklord231]

And the specific requirements of the Feats still hold priority over any general rule that determines availability anyway.

Well, yes.  The prerequisites of the epic feat in question still apply.  My objection was to the notion that you must be level 21 to take epic feats in all cases.

But, if you find some way to get more skill ranks than normal for your level (such as by one of the means already mentioned), and can cast 9th level spells (such as by being a level 18 sorcerer), then any dragon can take Epic Spellcasting, whether it has 21 character levels or not. 

[awaken_D_M_golem]

.
??



wait-a-minute ... you ... you mean to tell me ... what  the what ?!

So that whole Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons thing,
was just an extended smokescreen coverstory, for the 2*secret
probation actual story:  Dragons are Dragons, therefore Epic Feats !!
And this campaign was held from '06 to now ...

That's wow  quite a feat, and truly epic 10 years of trolling.
 

Well done sirs 

[SorO_Lost]

then any dragon can take Epic Spellcasting, whether it has 21 character levels or not.

Except the authors were not utter morons. The book takes a moment to specifically bring up how the term dragon can encompass a lot of creatures, but the book primarily uses in reference to the ten, and it even gos so far as to specifically name each one that makes up the total of ten because they really did try to phrase things like they were explaining it to a 9 year old child, True Dragons in the MM.

So you cannot ASSume anything, and while I can hammer on your stupid interpretation all day long the fact of the matter is you have to prove that every entry in question that you'd wish to use is specifically talking about the Dragon Type otherwise the statement only applies to the 10 TDs in the MM1. And if you can't, you failed and are wrong and it's as simple as that. Admitting to the failure of course is another story...

[linklord231]

the fact of the matter is you have to prove that every entry in question that you'd wish to use is specifically talking about the Dragon Type

No.  See, the thing is there can be multiple valid interpretations, all of which are correct.  The idea that within the context of Draconomicon, "dragon" always refers to "True Dragon" is one such interpretation.  But the notion that, in this specific instance, "dragon" refers to any creature with the dragon type is also valid. 

You're "ASSuming" the sidebar on page 4 means the book uses "dragon" and "True Dragon" interchangeably unless otherwise noted.  What it actually says is "For the most part, this book concerns itself with the ten varieties of true dragon described in the Monster Manual."  It is a statement about the topic of the book - and not a very accurate one at that, considering that of the roughly 300 pages the book has, only half of them are talking exclusively about the MM 10.  It does not carry the implication that you think it does.

Again, my intent isn't to prove that my interpretation is the only correct one, but to show that it could be a correct one.  If you can prove that it is incorrect, be my guest!  But a line saying "hey, this book is mostly talking about the True Dragons from the Monster Manual" doesn't necessarily mean that it is only talking about those dragons. 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

This thread comes up every three years or so. And it always goes exactly as the above.

The OPs been answered: epic spells are teh grossorz. Don't touch it with a stick. The only real question is what Soro is going to do about them here

[SorO_Lost]

No.  See, the thing is there can be multiple valid interpretations, all of which are correct.  The idea that within the context of Draconomicon, "dragon" always refers to "True Dragon" is one such interpretation.  But the notion that, in this specific instance, "dragon" refers to any creature with the dragon type is also valid.

The book literally says "In the D&D game, the term “dragon” encompasses a number of different creatures, some of which bear little resemblance to the great flying creatures with breath weapons that we commonly think of as dragons. For the most part, this book concerns itself with the ten varieties of true dragon described in the Monster Manual."
* There is no interpretation otherwise.
* There is no ambiguity to be had.
* There is no accepting your bullshit.
When I said prove is means the Type like you think it does I literally meant prove it's Type you think it is. And instead of doing that you went with claiming it's ambiguous so I accept your failure and offer my condolences on your inability to accept it.

This thread comes up every three years or so. And it always goes exactly as the above.

The OPs been answered: epic spells are teh grossorz. Don't touch it with a stick. The only real question is what Soro is going to do about them here

1. Pretty much through I do get less and less tolerant of things.
2. Epic Spells are broken, there is saving grace of requiring DM approval but when the forums typically operate as if there is no DM and permission is granted for PrC/Feat choices very few people want to discuss drawing lines in the sand of how to balance them when instead you can talk about how you can munchkin things and screw something over.

[Lycanthromancer]

You can use the ways of gaining skill ranks beyond your level to qualify for Epic Spellcasting pre-epic. For instance, be Old or older and add the dragon type to any of the following, whether through Dragonwrought, half-dragon, or Polymorph/Metamorphosis/PAO/Shapechange; then, do the following:

An illithid savant can consume a creature with 24+ ranks in Spellcraft. Summoning and calling are good for this, as you can ensure the creature won't resist.

The Cityscape feat Primary Contact grants +1 skill rank above and beyond your level cap.

Bloodlines increase your skill cap without increasing your HD.

Using PsyRef and temporary HD (such as from Inspire Greatness) can boost your skill ranks permanently above your level.

Using Fusion on a high HD creature and using PsyRef, or hitting yourself with Astral Seed to make the effect permanent.

Hit yourself with multiple strains of lycanthropy until you break the level cap, take Epic Spellcasting, cast the spells you want, and cure the lycanthropy. Even better with the Curse of Lycanthropy spell. If you want the epic change to be permanent, use a thought bottle before you cure yourself, or use the negative levels/Greater Restoration trick to instantaneously retrain your lycanthropy "levels" to actual class levels.

Use the dusk giant's or barghest's ability to absorb Hit Dice.

Ally yourself with a void disciple with the Moment of Clarity ability.

There're a few 3rd party feats that let you break skill rank caps, including a few semi-official campaign settings that are sanctioned by WotC. I don't recall off the top of my head what those are, though.