Why Down Two PrCs are Down Two Tiers Discussion

[Libertad]

Comments, criticisms, new findings?

Talk about the Handbook here!

[123456789blaaa]

The descriptions for Pros and Cons for lifedrinker seems to be switched.

[Libertad]

Switched.

Thanks for spotting that, Count!

[123456789blaaa]

Switched.

Thanks for spotting that, Count!

My pleasure  .

[Gazzien]

I... erm... Apostle of Peace is flat-out missing everything?

I was really wondering that one, too...

[Libertad]

I... erm... Apostle of Peace is flat-out missing everything?

I was really wondering that one, too...

That's how it was in the original thread on BG.

[Garryl]

Apostle of Peace

(click to show/hide)

Logical Entry: Cleric 7, although it's the furthest from ideal. Actually, 7 levels in any class with a good Will save and Concentration and Diplomacy as class skills. That's mostly Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Monk, and of them the Monk is probably the most synergistic (Wis focus, no armor, leads in to Sacred Fist).

Cons: The entry, mostly. It takes 4 feats that will hamstring you and make it very difficult to participate in the game as it's normally played (Vows of Poverty and Peace). In addition to being unable to own armor due to VoP, you're especially unable to wear it as a class feature.

Your class features are mostly nonexistent. Turning is useful but only for Divine feats. Pacifying Touch is redundant with your existing Vow of Peace aura. Censure Fiends is actually okay, since outsiders tend to have HDs similar to their CRs, so this has a decent success rate, but it's still only effective against a limited set of enemies. And nothing else but spellcasting for the remaining 6 levels.

You have your own spell progression with a very low caster level (compared to what full casters normally have for the spell level and character level). The spell list being its own distinct thing means no expansions with other splat books. You don't get all the lovely healing and buff spells in CDiv or SpC that Clerics get, despite the similarities in your spell list to that of a Core Cleric. On the upside, you do get a good selection of buff spells to start off with, although your aforementioned stunted caster level makes it harder to make use of them (easily dispelled, short duration). When you start off, you have 1st-level spells, despite being character level 8. You don't catch up on spell levels with a straight Cleric until ECL 15 (8th level spells) or with a Bard until ECL 11 (4th level spells).

Pros: 9th level spells from a list that isn't that that terrible for buffing and support. Turn Undead means Divine Metamagic shenanigans (not that you have that many spells worth shenaniganing). You get Gate, Miracle, and the Planar Ally line. Practiced Spellcaster can help make up for the low CL.

Oddities: VoP says you can't own any magic items. Apostle of Peace says you especially can't wear armor, but you can wear other protective magic items. But how can you wear them when you can't own or borrow them thanks to VoP? What?

Here's a bit off the top of my head so you can fill in the section a bit. I probably have a few things wrong about it.

[Gazzien]

Apostle of Peace

(click to show/hide)

Logical Entry: Cleric 7, although it's the furthest from ideal. Actually, 7 levels in any class with a good Will save and Concentration and Diplomacy as class skills. That's mostly Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Monk, and of them the Monk is probably the most synergistic (Wis focus, no armor, leads in to Sacred Fist).

Cons: The entry, mostly. It takes 4 feats that will hamstring you and make it very difficult to participate in the game as it's normally played (Vows of Poverty and Peace). In addition to being unable to own armor due to VoP, you're especially unable to wear it as a class feature.

Your class features are mostly nonexistent. Turning is useful but only for Divine feats. Pacifying Touch is redundant with your existing Vow of Peace aura. Censure Fiends is actually okay, since outsiders tend to have HDs similar to their CRs, so this has a decent success rate, but it's still only effective against a limited set of enemies. And nothing else but spellcasting for the remaining 6 levels.

You have your own spell progression with a very low caster level (compared to what full casters normally have for the spell level and character level). The spell list being its own distinct thing means no expansions with other splat books. You don't get all the lovely healing and buff spells in CDiv or SpC that Clerics get, despite the similarities in your spell list to that of a Core Cleric. On the upside, you do get a good selection of buff spells to start off with, although your aforementioned stunted caster level makes it harder to make use of them (easily dispelled, short duration). When you start off, you have 1st-level spells, despite being character level 8. You don't catch up on spell levels with a straight Cleric until ECL 15 (8th level spells) or with a Bard until ECL 11 (4th level spells).

Pros: 9th level spells from a list that isn't that that terrible for buffing and support. Turn Undead means Divine Metamagic shenanigans (not that you have that many spells worth shenaniganing). You get Gate, Miracle, and the Planar Ally line. Practiced Spellcaster can help make up for the low CL.

Oddities: VoP says you can't own any magic items. Apostle of Peace says you especially can't wear armor, but you can wear other protective magic items. But how can you wear them when you can't own or borrow them thanks to VoP? What?

Here's a bit off the top of my head so you can fill in the section a bit. I probably have a few things wrong about it.

Okay, thank you then! ^__^ that's a good explanation, I guess...
Oh well! No AoP for me.

[Libertad]

Thanks Garryl!  Added it in!

[Garryl]

Fochlucan Lyrist

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Logical Entry: Bard 2/Druid 6/Rogue 2, or something like that. Optionally, replace the second Bard level with Wizard or Sorcerer or something for better casting.

Cons: The entry, and only the entry. It's like Mystic Theurge but you're losing 4 caster levels on one side instead of 3, and at least 6 on the other side. The skill requirements are pretty serious (6 different skills on top of needing Concentration as a spellcaster, and most of those skills granted by very few classes). Bardic Knowledge pretty much forces you to take at least one Bard level. Evasion pretty much forces you to take at least 2 Rogue or Monk levels (Rogue helps more with the skills). The ability to speak Druidic and first level divine spells requires a Druid level, usually. First level arcane spells means you need either a second level of Bard or a dip into Wizard or the like. 13 ranks in Perform means you can't enter until after 10th at the earliest, so you don't have any levels afterwards to build off of your dual progression, and all the multiclassing you've done so far means you can't qualify for Mystic Theurge or Arcane Heirophant early enough to salvage your spellcasting.

Pros: Once you're in, life is great (or would be if you didn't have to sacrifice so so much to get there). Full dual progression of spellcasting, full BAB, 6 skill points, bardic knowledge and music progression, and, as a bonus, you can wear metal armor (though not shields for some reason, probably an unintentional omission) and get to ignore the multiclassing XP penalty rules that nobody plays with. Give it a good Fort save and a d12 HD and it would be a gestalt character's ideal. If you can find a way into this class without a horrible entry (Loremaster can, arguably, give Druidic and Bardic Knowledge, a Ring of Evasion, the Impulse Boots soulmeld, and the Loredelver PrC can get you Evasion without losing CLs, early entry into Mystic Theurge to keep two spellcasting classes up, etc.), it's a pretty good chassis.

By the way, I accidentally repeated "that" twice in a row in the pros section on Apostle of Peace ("isn't that that terrible").

[Libertad]

Added to the list, and fixed the grammatical error!