Author Topic: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z  (Read 80141 times)

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #400 on: March 26, 2019, 10:56:04 PM »
We had a ship captain once.

They disappeared after about two posts.

They lasted longer than their ship did tho. Twice as long!

I'll take it as a good sign you still remember the campaign's beginnings. :P


I'm only confused about what was going on after we split. :p

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4241
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #401 on: March 27, 2019, 04:14:52 AM »
You should remove the Special part for Entropy Elemental. In any game where its an allowed choice, there's almost never a reason I could think of to not pick it unless you were specifically avoiding it because of how crazy it is. Considering how much you don't need magic buffs or items to make a crazy overpowered character using your SRW system, not having access to any of those things is not very much different from simply not having any drawbacks to this feat at all.

And to loop back around to my first sentence, being able to just temporarily sack Spirit Points to gain the feat whenever you want temporarily is way too much. Half the options are already easy Cohort fodder picks, and the other half have zero drawbacks in an SRW game where the PCs do not need magic where things like Child Soldier, Psionics, homebrew Martial Schools, and Pure Metal exists. In fact choosing to use magical equipment in such a scenario is almost a drawback in of itself whenever Pure Metal is accessible.

Lastly, being able to make constructs & undead go berserk permanently with a touch is a fantastic pick for a villain type. Does that ability work on sentient mechas? (Hello Evangelions)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 04:17:09 AM by ketaro »

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #402 on: March 27, 2019, 04:49:20 AM »
You should remove the Special part for Entropy Elemental. In any game where its an allowed choice, there's almost never a reason I could think of to not pick it unless you were specifically avoiding it because of how crazy it is. Considering how much you don't need magic buffs or items to make a crazy overpowered character using your SRW system, not having access to any of those things is not very much different from simply not having any drawbacks to this feat at all.

And to loop back around to my first sentence, being able to just temporarily sack Spirit Points to gain the feat whenever you want temporarily is way too much. Half the options are already easy Cohort fodder picks, and the other half have zero drawbacks in an SRW game where the PCs do not need magic where things like Child Soldier, Psionics, homebrew Martial Schools, and Pure Metal exists. In fact choosing to use magical equipment in such a scenario is almost a drawback in of itself whenever Pure Metal is accessible.
Some clarifications:
-First, Entropy elemental has a spoilered note at start saying that "When one of the following effects refers to “spell” or “magic”, it refers to all  spells/psionics/SLAs/PLAs/invocations/salient divine abilities/divine characteristics/similar" so you can't just use D&D alternate magic system psionics to cover up.
-Pure crafting can still be combined with magic items as long as they're not spell trigger/activation stuff like scrolls and wands.
-Feats are a limited resource, even more than levels usually. When writing NPCs I often run out of feat slots pretty fast long before I even consider just handing out Entropy Elemental. And anybody specializing in Entropy Elemental with their base feats would just leave themselves too vulnerable to non-magic characters specializing in anything else.
-You can make crazy overpowered characters out of pure magic. Is it that much to ask for a non-magic character to be a viable option?
-Also Entropy Elemental is necessary settingwise to explain why don't people just magic up all their problems and immortal wizards don't rule everything from their pocket planes with only other immortal wizards being able to challenge them. Remember this isn't just a mecha rules supplement, is a setting on itself, and one where tech needs to be a competitive alternative to magic, and since magic is already well beyond infinite in so many ways then that means dragging magic down. My original idea was actually making it some sort of space monster going around destroying everything magic but ended up doing it as a feat so PCs could use it too.

Lastly, being able to make constructs & undead go berserk permanently with a touch is a fantastic pick for a villain type. Does that ability work on sentient mechas? (Hello Evangelions)
Alas mechas are not actual creatures (no HD for one) although some ability to make them go out of control sounds something interesting to do, I'll cook something up.

(also current version was changed to just berserk for 1d12 days but I can go change it back to permanent if you feel it's a better idea after all)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 04:53:08 AM by oslecamo »

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4241
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #403 on: March 27, 2019, 05:25:19 AM »
It just feels like a bad PC option.

Also you didn't address that you are not required to spend a feat slot on picking Entropy Elemental but can instead just sacrifice a little bit of Spirit Points to gain it whenever. And there's enough options to gain more Spirit Points to make up for the loss.

Quote
-Pure crafting can still be combined with magic items as long as they're not spell trigger/activation stuff like scrolls and wands.

That, uh, that only makes my point stronger. And the feat. And Pure Metal. -_-'

Quote
-Feats are a limited resource, even more than levels usually. When writing NPCs I often run out of feat slots pretty fast long before I even consider just handing out Entropy Elemental. And anybody specializing in Entropy Elemental with their base feats would just leave themselves too vulnerable to non-magic characters specializing in anything else.

Costs 21 SP instead of a feat slot, for one. Having this feat makes you no more vulnerable to non-magic foes than not having the feat considering everything else available in just your own content. No-magic item builds are super easy with most of your content (SRW, Monsters, TobHou, Pure Metal, ect ect ect).

Quote
Is it that much to ask for a non-magic character to be a viable option?

Both my previous post and this one, I feel, kinda are making that point actually. I've been advocating non-magic characters in both of these posts. After all, a non-magic character is exactly who'd be using this feat. But it's just too much. It's like giving some one 9th level spells or higher at 1st level. Maybe a slight exaggeration but my point is there. This feat is too much to be a feat. Shoot, make an actual Entropy Elemental monster for the SRW setting -_-' Maybe make a 'lighter' form of this feat based around being a survivor of an encounter with such a creature?

Quote
-Also Entropy Elemental is necessary settingwise to explain why don't people just magic up all their problems and immortal wizards don't rule everything from their pocket planes with only other immortal wizards being able to challenge them. Remember this isn't just a mecha rules supplement, is a setting on itself, and one where tech needs to be a competitive alternative to magic, and since magic is already well beyond infinite in so many ways then that means dragging magic down. My original idea was actually making it some sort of space monster going around destroying everything magic but ended up doing it as a feat so PCs could use it too.

That sounds like a far better idea than making this a PC option. At the end of the day, Entropy Elemental just feels so much like a bad PC option to make available.

Quote
(also current version was changed to just berserk for 1d12 days but I can go change it back to permanent if you feel it's a better idea after all)

Temporary berserking can also have some interesting consequences though. Like, if they aren't killed before the end of it, many societal & political problems could arise such a situation.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 05:29:33 AM by ketaro »

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #404 on: March 27, 2019, 06:19:33 AM »
It just feels like a bad PC option.

Also you didn't address that you are not required to spend a feat slot on picking Entropy Elemental but can instead just sacrifice a little bit of Spirit Points to gain it whenever. And there's enough options to gain more Spirit Points to make up for the loss.
My point was supposed to be that Entropy Elemental needs to be something readily available, not somehing you can only pick at level up.

Also considering that out of 29 classes/prcs all but two gain 8 or less spirit points per level (Magitech Knight gains 10 and Soul Soldier gains 12 but is only 5 levels long), 21 spirit points is hardly a cheap price, meaning at least 3 levels of anything besides Soul Soldier. But if you still consider it too cheap, I may raise it to 30 or 40.

Quote
-Feats are a limited resource, even more than levels usually. When writing NPCs I often run out of feat slots pretty fast long before I even consider just handing out Entropy Elemental. And anybody specializing in Entropy Elemental with their base feats would just leave themselves too vulnerable to non-magic characters specializing in anything else.

Costs 21 SP instead of a feat slot, for one. Having this feat makes you no more vulnerable to non-magic foes than not having the feat considering everything else available in just your own content. No-magic item builds are super easy with most of your content (SRW, Monsters, TobHou, Pure Metal, ect ect ect).
Again, 21 SP is at least 3 levels worth of SP for anybody besides the Soul Soldier. And picking it base means a non-magic foe picked something else more widely useful like Attacker or Counter that will give them the edge if you fight.

And even beyond that it's not all sun and sunshine for an Entropy Elemental as you're making it to be. Like if the party spellcaster is sharing uber buffs. If you have perma Null Soul, you can't benefit from them. So a party of full entropy elemental would struggle heavily against a non-magic non-entropy party with even a single spellcaster to further buff them up. Yes End of Magic can dispel stuff, but that's assuming their magically buffed initiative doesn't allow them to go first and insta-smash you with all their magic buffs before you ever get a chance of using Entropy Elemental.

Quote
Is it that much to ask for a non-magic character to be a viable option?

Both my previous post and this one, I feel, kinda are making that point actually. I've been advocating non-magic characters in both of these posts. After all, a non-magic character is exactly who'd be using this feat. But it's just too much. It's like giving some one 9th level spells or higher at 1st level. Maybe a slight exaggeration but my point is there.
Is it in the same level of Wish? Shapechange? Gate? :psyduck

Because actual 9th level spells would allow a 1st level character to dominate pretty much everything (gate/shapechange into a solar or a titan then gate infinite titans), whereas a 1st level character with entropy elemental still dies just fine when somebody stabs them with a rusty dagger.

 Heck, a wizard with a bit more levels could do it just fine even if all their magic is shut down because they'll still have more HP and Bab to win a direct fight.

But if you have commoner 1 with shapechange/gate against non-homebrew no-magic-items epic fighter 200000000, the commoner 1 wins because infinite titans 100% of the time.

This feat is too much to be a feat. Shoot, make an actual Entropy Elemental monster for the SRW setting -_-' Maybe make a 'lighter' form of this feat based around being a survivor of an encounter with such a creature?
Yes I could make an actual monster (and maybe I still will), but then as they say as soon as I give it stats, a wizard can kill it, probably a level 1. However you can't kill a feat. Entropy is everywhere.

Quote
-Also Entropy Elemental is necessary settingwise to explain why don't people just magic up all their problems and immortal wizards don't rule everything from their pocket planes with only other immortal wizards being able to challenge them. Remember this isn't just a mecha rules supplement, is a setting on itself, and one where tech needs to be a competitive alternative to magic, and since magic is already well beyond infinite in so many ways then that means dragging magic down. My original idea was actually making it some sort of space monster going around destroying everything magic but ended up doing it as a feat so PCs could use it too.

That sounds like a far better idea than making this a PC option. At the end of the day, Entropy Elemental just feels so much like a bad PC option to make available.

Well it's also good for villains, otherwise Entropy Elemental Elder (name pending for monster version) is the only credible non-magical threat, and that just won't do. Mechas are supposed to be the stars here, not fancy trophies for spellcasters.

Quote
(also current version was changed to just berserk for 1d12 days but I can go change it back to permanent if you feel it's a better idea after all)

Temporary berserking can also have some interesting consequences though. Like, if they aren't killed before the end of it, many societal & political problems could arise such a situation.
Indeed. :smirk
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 06:21:38 AM by oslecamo »

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4241
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #405 on: March 27, 2019, 06:28:30 AM »
Quote
otherwise Entropy Elemental Elder (name pending for monster version)

Fearfully referred to as the "Eee" because thats the sound people make when they see one :P

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #406 on: March 27, 2019, 08:48:07 AM »
Well here's a WIP version.

So you agree the feat is fine and there's no need to increase the SP cost, right?

Although something else that crossed my mind as custom drawback would be a random chance that using the special acquisition of the feat have a 1% chance of turning you into an Entropy Elemental Elder with self-control for some time before becoming an NPC.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #407 on: March 27, 2019, 10:10:19 AM »
If at first level you tried to Gate in a Solar by somehow having access to Gate, the Solar would probably shishkebab you and leave. :p

Offline YuweaCurtis

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 594
  • My Life For Madoka!
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #408 on: March 27, 2019, 10:23:26 AM »
Yuwea has a ship captain cohort according to the character sheet thread

She's mostly just a ship captain for transport. She's actually a Support Staff so my character vicariously be one through her.

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #409 on: April 04, 2019, 01:08:11 AM »
I am doing all of the maneuvers.  I am looking at every school.  If I don't mention something it's fine.

Beam Barrage - Body Beam says that you pick stuff when you enter the stance but then talks about changing options when you level up.  It is also wall-of-texty.  I would rewrite it as follows (assuming I've interpreted it correctly).  Emphasis mine to note changed language.  Also PL 19 says 16d10 damage, that's super wrong.


When you learn this stance you gain a number of Beam Ammo equal to your Int score (not mod, full Int score) that can only be used to fire Beams from this stance.  This stance allows you to fire Beams with either the Defensive, Area (your choice, changeable at level up) or Heavy Property (Property chosen when Beam is fired) plus the Power property from your mecha’s body with range 30 mu dealing 1d4/1d8/1d0 damage respectively, costing 1/2/3 Beam Ammo. Beam Ammo can only be recovered at any effect that would recharge normal ammo like a chance to change your arsenal, even if you change stances.
 - At PL 4 you can grant Rending to the Defensive one, double the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 2d10 by paying 2/4/6 Beam ammo per shot respectively.
 - At PL 7 you can grant Rending+Pinning to the Defensive One,  triple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 4d10 by paying 3/6/9 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 10 you can grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive to the Defensive one, quadruple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 8d10 by paying 4/8/12 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 13 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+18-20 critical to the Defensive one, quadruple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 16d10 by paying 5/10/15 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 16 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+18-20x3 critical to the Defensive one, increase the Area’s range increment by x6 and increase the Heavy’s damage to 32d10 by paying 6/12/18 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 19 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+16-20x4 critical to the Defensive one,  increase the Area’s range increment by x10 and increase the Heavy’s damage to 16d10 by paying 7/14/21 Beam Ammo per shot.

Beam Barrage - Beta Beam should say how long ago you can only have attacked the target once.

Beam Barrage - Balance Beam, when does the target take the damage?  After the 1d12 rounds ends?


I like Gun Maniac!


Martial Machine has the tags in the maneuvers list, might be a good idea to add those to Gun Maniac too.

Martial Machine - Dark Scherzo, can Twin-Linked weapons target separate targets?


Am I done?  I think I'm done!  Sorry it took so long!

Edit: Ugh, I started last July.  I have no excuse, I've never taken this long to review a project.

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #410 on: April 05, 2019, 01:06:31 AM »
I am doing all of the maneuvers.  I am looking at every school.  If I don't mention something it's fine.

Beam Barrage - Body Beam says that you pick stuff when you enter the stance but then talks about changing options when you level up.  It is also wall-of-texty.  I would rewrite it as follows (assuming I've interpreted it correctly).  Emphasis mine to note changed language.  Also PL 19 says 16d10 damage, that's super wrong.

When you learn this stance you gain a number of Beam Ammo equal to your Int score (not mod, full Int score) that can only be used to fire Beams from this stance.  This stance allows you to fire Beams with either the Defensive, Area (your choice, changeable at level up) or Heavy Property (Property chosen when Beam is fired) plus the Power property from your mecha’s body with range 30 mu dealing 1d4/1d8/1d0 damage respectively, costing 1/2/3 Beam Ammo. Beam Ammo can only be recovered at any effect that would recharge normal ammo like a chance to change your arsenal, even if you change stances.
 - At PL 4 you can grant Rending to the Defensive one, double the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 2d10 by paying 2/4/6 Beam ammo per shot respectively.
 - At PL 7 you can grant Rending+Pinning to the Defensive One,  triple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 4d10 by paying 3/6/9 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 10 you can grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive to the Defensive one, quadruple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 8d10 by paying 4/8/12 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 13 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+18-20 critical to the Defensive one, quadruple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 16d10 by paying 5/10/15 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 16 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+18-20x3 critical to the Defensive one, increase the Area’s range increment by x6 and increase the Heavy’s damage to 32d10 by paying 6/12/18 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 19 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+16-20x4 critical to the Defensive one,  increase the Area’s range increment by x10 and increase the Heavy’s damage to 16d10 by paying 7/14/21 Beam Ammo per shot.
Great cleaning, and yes you interpreted it quite correctly. Also the PL 19 heavy beam should be 64d10, fixed.

Beam Barrage - Beta Beam should say how long ago you can only have attacked the target once.
My original idea was no time limit and basically only worked against each target once, but looking again now maybe that's a bit too harsh so put a 24 hour limit.

Beam Barrage - Balance Beam, when does the target take the damage?  After the 1d12 rounds ends?
Right after the penalties apply, clarified (also the damage type).

I like Gun Maniac!
Yay!  :D

Martial Machine has the tags in the maneuvers list, might be a good idea to add those to Gun Maniac too.
Done.

That reminds me there's still material from PS to plunder for a few more of those trinity schools.

Martial Machine - Dark Scherzo, can Twin-Linked weapons target separate targets?
Yes.

Am I done?  I think I'm done!  Sorry it took so long!

Edit: Ugh, I started last July.  I have no excuse, I've never taken this long to review a project.
Still greatly appreciate it, thanks a lot! :clap

And now you're free to go take a look at Tobhou. :smirk

Also still that opening in the Phantasy Star campaign.  :whistle
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 01:09:02 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #411 on: April 05, 2019, 01:12:36 AM »
At least let me rest for a couple of days before I look at Tobhou. So many martial schools...

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #412 on: April 05, 2019, 12:22:22 PM »
A note looking at Monado Maiden: the increased energy cost for flight and inability to regenerate energy whilst flying seems particularly painful when everyone and their mother can hover indefinitely and like 90% of the enemies we've had in PS have been flight capable.

Super Robot base + difficulty touching any airborne enemy seems lethal.

And looking at them (and Cyber Newtype) gives me an interesting question about Funnels:

Quote
You must choose a type (offensive, ranged or defensive) when you pick this feat, and you add the highest level of spell/power you can cast/manifest to the damage dealt/reduced by your funnel

What about these alternate funnel qualifications that don't manifest or cast? Do they get any sort of bonus?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 06:42:30 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #413 on: April 05, 2019, 09:48:03 PM »
A note looking at Monado Maiden: the increased energy cost for flight and inability to regenerate energy whilst flying seems particularly painful when everyone and their mother can hover indefinitely and like 90% of the enemies we've had in PS have been flight capable.

Super Robot base + difficulty touching any airborne enemy seems lethal.
Other monado classes don't get flying at all.

The reason for that is since besides a "free" +8 to AC and attacks and +16 to hide from being fine sized, the monado classes have the extra utility of being able to go anywhere and always having their "mecha" on while non-monado classes need to get outside their mecha eventually. Also monado classes have a much easier time using magic buffs and personal gear and whatnot.

So if you have an alternative idea for a suitable penalty for monado classes to make up for all the above utility, feel free to present it, but if I just remove flying limitations then monado maiden's a plain superior super pilot/robot.

Mind you there's plenty of anti-air options in SRW d20, from B.O.W. to maneuvers that allow you to close any distance instantly, so a monado class just needs to focus a bit more on those.

And looking at them (and Cyber Newtype) gives me an interesting question about Funnels:

Quote
You must choose a type (offensive, ranged or defensive) when you pick this feat, and you add the highest level of spell/power you can cast/manifest to the damage dealt/reduced by your funnel

What about these alternate funnel qualifications that don't manifest or cast? Do they get any sort of bonus?
They do now. :p

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #414 on: April 05, 2019, 10:59:29 PM »
You did forget the downsides to fine size (even disregarding that you could be a Zentraedi and get none of these:p): damage down, and... no reach. Bonuses to hiding aren't exactly fight-relevant.

As for balance... I dunno, it just seems that as a detriment it scales faster than you improve? If you get faster it takes more energy, it negates reactor more as time goes on, it takes fewer maneuvers to eat through it... the combination of costlier + blocking energy regen seems a bit overkill.

I mean, let's say you're level 6 and have taken agility as repeatedly. That's a base speed of 60MU.

If you use flight and a 3rd-level maneuver, that's 75 energy. Which you can't regen until you land and more or less waste a turn. For one turn's worth of action. It feels steep?

(Also do seriously none of the classes have access to flight spells etc?)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 11:09:38 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #415 on: April 05, 2019, 11:52:35 PM »
You did forget the downsides to fine size (even disregarding that you could be a Zentraedi and get none of these:p): damage down, and... no reach. Bonuses to hiding aren't exactly fight-relevant.
Zentraedi would be replaced by Cyborg due to Iron Heart. Plenty of maneuvers deal good damage regardless of size, and stealth can be a viable combat tactic. Good point on reach though, added 5 mu minimum for in-built melee like the other monado classes each get a special weapon with it.

As for balance... I dunno, it just seems that as a detriment it scales faster than you improve? If you get faster it takes more energy, it negates reactor more as time goes on, it takes fewer maneuvers to eat through it... the combination of costlier + blocking energy regen seems a bit overkill.

I mean, let's say you're level 6 and have taken agility as repeatedly. That's a base speed of 60MU.

If you use flight and a 3rd-level maneuver, that's 75 energy. Which you can't regen until you land and more or less waste a turn. For one turn's worth of action. It feels steep?
Minimum Monado Maiden energy is 100 so it's still perfectly doable when you need it. And landing for a turn is hardly wasting time when you can still attack at range. Reasons to switch tactics are good in my humble opinion.

(Also do seriously none of the classes have access to flight spells etc?)
They do, but none have unlimited spell lists so taking flight stuff is an opportunity cost and magic buffs can be dispelled/supressed.

Speaking of which the monado classes are also supposed to be more about teamwork as in Mark of Monado allowing to bring back other Monado people so you can just ask Kuromaiken if Hugo can keep you topped up with flight spells.
Nevermind Mark of Monado actually blocks all flight even if from other sources.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 08:31:26 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #416 on: April 05, 2019, 11:57:53 PM »
Hm, my concern is largely that getting good ranged options when pulling from super robot is hard--particularly ones that don't eat energy.

There's a certain threat that an enemy with good ranged attacks can hover far enough away you can only attack every other turn due to Maiden's regen lack and high flight cost (75/100 is doable, sure, but then you're on 25 and probably going to need to land to regen). Or just kite entirely. Or less numerically, it's closer to jumping if you can't actually engage flying enemies reliably because they can coast and you can't?

From the phrasing, I'm not sure if the energy costs only apply to mecha flight or all flight speeds regardless of where they come from. Actual mecha seem to eat energy even if the flight comes from the other half of a gestalt or a buff. Which is what really pushes it.

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #417 on: April 06, 2019, 08:36:54 AM »
I don't know how much clearer I can be about this, the monado classes are meant to be land based. You may as well be complaining that a warblade sucks at spellcasting and a wizard can kill them from a safe distance with spells that can only be countered by spells. If you want to play something based in flying around, then don't play a monado class, and if you want to play a monado class then you can rest assured I won't suddenly start throwing super flying kiters (which I never did in all the years the campaign lasted) and also like I never threw wizards that made themselves invulnerable to damage while attacking you from their pocket planes.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #418 on: April 06, 2019, 11:54:13 AM »
Okay,  so setting aside my fear of flying enemies, I have two mechanical questions:

Monado Maiden makes your base race cyborg. Monster classes remove said base race. How do these resolve?

Quote
Either way a Monado Maiden counts as a Super Robot of Monado Maiden level except her HP is based on her HD instead of base Super Robot progression

Does, e.g., plating still give HP?

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #419 on: April 06, 2019, 09:51:30 PM »
Okay,  so setting aside my fear of flying enemies, I have two mechanical questions:
In case you're still afraid, I'll point you to the Dynamic Terrain feat that allows you to use maneuvers to apply exotic enviroments to the field, including Bi-dimensional that would make everybody count as if they're at the same height like most SRPGs and you'll never need to fear anybody to be too high for you to reach.

Monado Maiden makes your base race cyborg. Monster classes remove said base race. How do these resolve?
Welp the latest one would overwrite the other so if you're taking both at first level you get to choose (and you'll probably want the monster class since otherwise cyborg would eat up all the monster class levels). Unless you take the feats to be able to benefit from both.

Quote
Either way a Monado Maiden counts as a Super Robot of Monado Maiden level except her HP is based on her HD instead of base Super Robot progression

Does, e.g., plating still give HP?

Yes, HP from upgrades doesn't count towards the base Super Robot HP progression.