Altering Spells

[Mortadelas]

So Jimmy the 12th level cleric has just buffed up to face a Multiheaded Ogre-magi Half-elf Hag-bloodlined Necromancer of Doom!
He kicks down the door only to discover that the MOMHEHBN is actually replaced by Nerull himself.
Nerull desides he feels cheezy today and states with his otherworldly voice "I've come for you Jimmy cause you were about to save the world, I'll take you in for Torture Everlasting!!!!!
Surprise round
-Greater dispell Magic, kneel before me!!!!
-Ring of counterspells with GDM in it, soz I countered you.
Nerull wins initiative cause he is a god.
-Finger of death, muahahhahahha!
-Deathward biatch, I-ar IMMUNE. Let me search my backback for a round or two.
-Casper! Posses the living fool.
-Protection from evil protects me even agains Good ghost's possesion.
-Sorry Boss, I can not posses Jimmy, wanna be friends?
-Die you worthless ghost, as for you worthy oppoment....Dominate Person, muahahahahha!
-I gots mind blank item biatch, where the hell did I put that scroll.
-Oh crap ok I apparently I have barbarian levels, Grapple!
-Freedom of movement, soz found my scroll, I think I'm gonna teleport away now.
-Celerity, feign and SNEAK ATTACK!!!!!!
-I'm cannot be sneaked, I have paid money!
-Your scroll is actually a SNAKE I tell you!!!!!
-Got true seeing gogles, I have no idea what you are talking about, I'll just use the scroll.
-Haha! You didn't say cast of the defensive! AoO muahahahhahha
-Shielded casting biatch, tell the MOMHEHBN I'll come back for him.

And so Jimmy the Cleric and Nerull became eternal rivals.

Now while this was a (hopefully) funny story, I'm tired of all the immunities.
I'm thinking of altering all immunity granting spells into "allows save, or grants +4 untyped bonus if save was already allowed."
Freedom of movement just adding caster level in the grapple check.
However d&d is full of save or dies even from early levels and there is always the dreaded "1".
Anyone has any experience in D&D without the immune things?

[FlaminCows]

That wasn't Nerull, it was just some poser. Probably not even a wizard or a cleric, but a sorcerer, since there's no way that guy has an Intelligence or Wisdom high enough to cast Greater Dispell Magic.

Nerull would use Spellcraft to identify the buffs on the cleric, which requires no action on his part, so he wouldn't be wasting turns on things that don't work. The immunities weren't the problem, the problem was that the cleric's opponent was an imbecile. In addition, the cleric wouldn't actually be able to counter not-Nerull's greater dispel magic, because the cleric did not ready an action to do so. That is the whole point of "surprise": the enemy does not have time to react. Right, Ring of Counterspells, no action required. Still, the rest of it.

Personally, I dislike the spells that give bonus to save and prefer immunities, both as a DM and as a player. There are too many rolls in high-level D&D, and enemies having immunities forces the PCs to try new tactics rather than doing the same ones. And if my monsters can have immunities, why shouldn't the PCs?

Save or dies and "the dreaded '1'" are not an exciting way to play. The game is random enough as it is, and a character should lose a fight because of tactical mistakes, not bad rolls. Immunities make both sides play smart and try different methods.

[phaedrusxy]

In addition, the cleric wouldn't actually be able to counter not-Nerull's greater dispel magic, because the cleric did not ready an action to do so. That is the whole point of "surprise": the enemy does not have time to react.

Reread the OP. The cleric had a Ring of Counterspells with GDM in it. Everything in the OP was totally legal, but I do agree that Nerull should have actually seen what buffs the cleric had, and not wasted any actions on things that wouldn't work. Even for a non-deity, permanent Arcane Sight is a damned good thing to have as it gives you a clue to what you're facing.

I'd say the OP gives a pretty good justification on why Mord's Disjunction is fine as written, despite the common complaints you hear about it.

I've seen this type of house rule(s) applied before, but I forget who it was that was using it. I'm sure I've seen it somewhere on this very board, though.

[Mortadelas]

I know how to kill Jimmy with Nerull, that isn't my problem. My problem is that I know how to survive Nerull with Jimmy.
Sooner or later every party becomes immune to almost everything, this creates a strange situation.
I am more afraid of a commoner with a scythe when I am level 5 than I am afraid of Balors at level 15.
Undead, constructs, oozes, swarms, elementals... They are there so that PCs have to use different tactics vs diferent oppoments.This adds variety.
When every single encounter after lvl 15 has to start with dispell chains we have the opposite.
I am not against hard to kill PCs or caster NPCs, but I'd like to see Grapplers,Illusionists,Enchanters and Necromancers again.

[FlaminCows]

In that case, you might be better off just restricting the spells rather than modifying them. There are already plenty of save-boosting spells, so if you want that rather than immunities you can just remove the immunity-granting spells and point people to the save-increasing ones.

[Craiconn]

We ditched True Seeing and showcased Revelation (4th level spell from DoF) as its replacement.

We ditched Mind Blank and showcased a bunch of other lower level spells that provided excellent high bonuses to the myriad array of magic that Mind Blank protects against. 

So combining a given spell ban along with a re-education and showcasing of multiple alternative spells that still have high CharOp value can easily lead to a reasonable satisfaction by both the DM and the party.  3.5's massive catalog of spells have a surprising number of obscure and lesser-known "alt-spells" littered throughout all the Faerun, Eberron, PHB2 and _ _ _ _ Outside splatbooks. 

[Mortadelas]

Will try including immunity spells to our list with banned spells as well as reduse the frequensy of stat draining NPCs.
Hopefully party's death-rate will remain roughly the same and an Illusionist will be a valid encounter again.

[Craiconn]

A few D20 /OGL companies produced some excellent alternative spells to True Seeing. More similar to DoF's Revelation .... in that the alternatives gave True Seeing functionality, but in a "flash". Meaning a duration of 1 round. Those spells also tend to have no expensive material component as compensation.

When you think about it, a lot of situations where you need True Seeing, can often times give you a fulfilling return with only a 1 round duration anyway. True Seeing being up for long periods of time (especially for more than 1 combat encounter per day) tends to piss off DMs and players. So this is decent solution for said spell.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

2nd-ing PhaeXY's approach.

... My problem is that I know how to survive Nerull with Jimmy ...

Toward the end of wotc C.O. board,
there was a thread dedicated to trying to kill Deities.
So that answer is no, without very high C.O. happening.
It reaches impossible, without equally deific fire to fight fire.

However you raise an interesting possibility ... surviving a Deity.
It would be a VERY different encounter and build.

[Mortadelas]

Standard Deities and Demigods Nerull.
Can cast 20 death produsing spells per round as free actions but doesn't have quicken spell though.
Has no way of casting Mord's Disjunction as he is only 10th level necro and it is not in the Divine spell list, Miracle cannot be used to cast 9th arcane and Nerull has NO use magic devise.

Step 0 Access to mindblank etc items.
Step 1 for Jimmy: Become a Red Wizard and cast Deathward on himself with CL=40 (24 hour duration cheese optional)
GDispell Magic caps at 15, so Nerull CANNOT dispel it.
Step 2 for Jimmy: Get extrodinary spell aim. So he can use it on his Antimagic field and exclude himself. (every caster should have this anyway)
Step 3 for Jimmy: Buy 2 rings of Counterspell, one with GDM and one with Dimensional Anchor.
Step 4 for Jimmy: Learn to cast planeshift to a place Nerull would not follow. Such as next to Garl Glittergold that is higher divine rank....than the god of death....

You are Nerull, Olidamara claims your build and gear sucks and you cannot even one-shot the next person to open that door without going shopping, You accepted the bet and much to your displeasure Garl Glittergold and Pelor have come as judges. (As a Dm i just countered Nerulls superior intelect by using Olidamara's superior intelect against it to avoid "Nerull would know...", yes he would but he got tricked by Olidamara)
Ok round 1, Jimmy opens the door and closes it behind him , he has a deathward you cannot dispell, and has Mindblank, Freedom of movement, protection from evil etc plus a Heavy fortification Mithril buckler that are dispellable.
You get a surprise round and act first on the initiative.
Go!!!!

[vaz]

Reaving Dispel is +25, not just 15, but that just leads to Consumptive Field Cheese etc etc. So to skip that arms race; Miracle'd/Wish'd Selective Spell Antimagic Field.

[Craiconn]

Deities can have access to gear and class features that externally boost Dispel Magic and Counterspell rolls.  I would definitely factor that into comfortable safety margins in determining what is outside the range of DM, GDM, Reaving Dispel, etc.

[Mortadelas]

A) Nerull cannot cast 9th level arcane spells. He casts up to 5th. So Reaving dispell is out.
He can cast Greater dispell magic as divine spell, that does cap to 15 so Nerull is infact unable to dispell Jimmy's deathward.

B) Nerull's class features do not improve his dispelling abilities. Let's not forget he exists in printed material.

C) Nerull doesn't have selective spell. Or extrodinary spell aim or any other way to exclude himself from AMF. If he uses Miracle to cast AMF with a metamagic he doesn't have (I didn't even know it could be done). Jimmy would respond with Celerity+Planeshift to Celestia and be free and alive.

[Mortadelas]

Have I proved my point about immunities etc?
Higher specialized SR AND bonus to saves is ok, immunity to the god of death's Finger of death is too much imo.

[TuggyNE]

A) Nerull cannot cast 9th level arcane spells. He casts up to 5th. So Reaving dispell is out.
He can cast Greater dispell magic as divine spell, that does cap to 15 so Nerull is infact unable to dispell Jimmy's deathward.

I think you mean caps at 20.

[vaz]

A) Nerull cannot cast 9th level arcane spells. He casts up to 5th. So Reaving dispell is out.
He can cast Greater dispell magic as divine spell, that does cap to 15 so Nerull is infact unable to dispell Jimmy's deathward.

Alter Reality; duplicate 9th level spell or lower as a Standard Action. Assuming RAW Psionics Transparency, applies there as well.

C) Nerull doesn't have selective spell. Or extrodinary spell aim or any other way to exclude himself from AMF. If he uses Miracle to cast AMF with a metamagic he doesn't have (I didn't even know it could be done). Jimmy would respond with Celerity+Planeshift to Celestia and be free and alive.

Again, Alter Reality; "duplicate a spell with any metamagic feat (so long as the metamagic feat is available to characters of 20th level or lower"; Selective Spell certain falls within that area.

 Jimmy would be plain shifted to Celestia. All that Nerull would have to do would be to get one of his mortal followers (perhaps another Cleric 20 gated in), and use Miracle to PsyRef in Astral Tracking, and to give them the required Survival skill ranks to bring him home.

Celerity abuse isn't going to happen; he has 6 4th level Arcane spells a day; which he can use his Spontaneous Wizard spells to use all of them for.

Lets also have a look at his Salients;

Alter Reality; already explained. Wish on 'roids. One thing that's important is that he can render magical/supernatural affects permanent. With enough preparation (he of course knows about it), he can every 60 hours permanence and effect.

Alter Size; irrelevant at this level of optimizing.

Arcane Mastery; no need for a spellbook. And it can invent new spells without research. There are so many shenanigans involving an ultraintelligent individual like Nerull being capable of coming up with something.

Divine Shield/Area Divine Shield; Basically add 1700 to its hit points total.

Annihilating Strike; so anytime your Cleric is hit by Nerull, it must pass a DC60 save, or be reduced to -10 HP. Unless you're pulling off Persistomancy delay death+beastlands ferocity, considering that Nerull is making 5+ attacks a turn, some will hit.

Avatar; presumably irrelevant

Control Creatures (undead); Not relevant until they're Gated in. Or until after your cleric has been made a plaything.

Craft Artifact; He probably has some sort of Artifacts knocking about that he could use.

Create Greater Object/Create Object; Irrelevant.

Divine Blast; again, 26d12 (average 169) 12/day, no save. Again, immunity to HP damage required.

Divine Celerity; hasted is always good.

Divine Creation; this is better now, Full Round Action to create mortal creatures. Create himself a Prismatic/Force/Time Dragon shall he? Sure, he has to rest, but so what?

Divine Spell Focus; +17DC to Necromancy Spells, he can create his own spells without research, QED, any spell he has is a Necromancy school version of it.

Increased Spell Resistance; SR sucks.

Hand of Death; provided it's immunity hasn't been dispelled, immune. Oh well. If it has; DC48 or death.

Life and Death; see above.

Life Drain; Can you see in the Dark? This isn't a death effect either; DC38 is a bit more manageable though.

Spontaneous Wizard Spells; Celerity Wars? Game on.

Supreme Initiative; already addressed.

Undead Qualities; does exactly what it says on the tin.

So no, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. That an optimized character going up against a God is going to end in a severely smushed character, even ones as "poorly" optimized as the per book deities, because said god has access to countering immunities. Or that immunities are bad because you're not capable of coming up with enough ways to bypass them?

Even in low-OP, Searing Spell allows your Fireball to hurt Red Dragons.

[Mortadelas]

I'm trying to prove that the God of death cannot play like a God of Death Vs someone who cast a 4th level spell (with some added cheese).
I'd prefer my DM to tell me "You pissed off the wrong person, roll DC58 fort" than actually have a valid duel between the God of Death and a not even lvl20 mortal. Worst part? Nerull is mainly a divine caster, he has to emulate a wizard (and not even a Necro Wizard) to outspell someone in Trasmutation (Celerity wars) or to emulate an artificer and instacraft a Jimmy killer item, then actually ask the help of a Mortal follower via gate and use Dragon mag. material that most people don't allow ( I do but that is not the point).

You are right I totally forgot about spontaneous wizard casting, that does allow Nerull to dispell Jimmy's Deathward and win the celerity wars.

So the fight goes: Jimmy--> Celerity to leave (share with familiar), Nerull---> celerity to..., Familiar (via imbue with spell ability)---> Celerity to Wall of Force, Nerull has no familiar but he does have an Avatar that can also Celerity to kill the wall.But it was a duel so no Avatar is allowed.

Free actions done.
Jimmy leaves.
Nerull summons a cleric
Jimmy Polymorphs in a will'o'wisp with no light and runs for full duration.
Nerull grants his cleric astral tracking+ cleric uses planeshift, greater cause he is not a nubb.
Cleric and Nerull find Mindblanked and nonexistant Jimmy by some mindsight abuse I suppose, Cleric uses his scythe of AMF (sculpted) to rip Jimmy a new one.

Howerver i forgot that Nerull has 58 Diplomacy and rolls 20s so he can make Jimmy his fanatical follower and there is no immune to diplomacy. Also cause he has disguise 83 he is actually Jimmy's mother so Jimmy doesn't fight at all.

That is two ways so far to kill someone using the god of death, none of the two ways have anything to do with necromancy

[Mortadelas]

Btw if Death ward and Mind blank was "You gain SR 50 and +15 to saves+mettle vs...." I'd be ok.

[vaz]

That is down to how the Gods ability is worded, more due to the fact it is a Death Effect with the relevant tag. It is keyed off a 7th level spell, as opposed to the 9th level spells accessible by Alter Reality.

Rather than homebrew an entire system around nerfing inmunities, are you not better coming up with feats or spells which counter said go arounds? An equivalent searing spell fpr enchantments is better than simply saying immunities are worth less? For example Paladins Fear immunity etc.

And how does the familiar get Force Wall off, when Netull still has Celerity to spare?

I'm sorry, but Nerull just bypasses any sort of Optimization that even an ECL20 Cleric can pull off; you know, basocally because it is one anyway. The fact that you're saying "yh the god of death can only cause Death in one way unless you count ALL of its abilities"  shows how way off the mark you are.

That is like saying "as written a 3.0 deity cannot kill Fire dubtype creatures without using a Metamagic that is not written on its writeup, unless it uses some other ability it has."

I would love someone to wrote a 3.5 deities book now, with the collective optimization of the last 12 years or so. Even as they are in their unoptimized selfs, deities wipe the floor with anything except Epic Spellcastong.

[Mortadelas]

I like the "searing spell" idea. The simplest thing and I never thought about it.

Also Nerull may have many Celerities available but "You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn" he can either use 19 more free actions to cast Finger of death/destruction other death effects only, or no more free actions at all, as interpreted by the DM from the wording of Nerull's automatic actions.

Then again Nerull may not have a familiar but he does have the "familiar" divine ability to treat creatures of a kind within 1 mile/DR as a familiar. Nerull chooses humanoids (undead are objects and don't quallify as creatures and Nerull has never shown fondness to furry animals), so Jimmy is now his familiar damned to serve forever. There is no save mentioned anywhere! Hell yeah, THIS is how a deity should fight mere mortals. (Still has nothing to do with Necromancy.)

Nerull is used as an exageration, any legendary character in d&d that focuses heavily on something should not have his area of focus nullified by a fourth level spell that is in every spell list except Bard. How am I off the mark?
-And Frodo, walked the One ring to Mordor never knowing what the fuss was about cause his other ring had mind blank 1/day.
If that makes sence I give up.