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Meta Board => Retired PbP Games => Archive => [D&D 3.5] The Exiled City => Topic started by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 02:28:11 PM

Title: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 02:28:11 PM
Hello and welcome to The Exiled City! This is a 7 out of 10 hardness game about a faith-based expeditionary force sent to investigate the demons and undead recently being produced by the "Harrow Gate," a magical gateway in the side of a mountain that leads to an ancient city that should be all but uninhabited.

Character Generation
Play will include combat scaled per the Heroes of Battle supplement, with strategy and tactics, of the players and their army against forces of darkness including demons, the fey, the obyrith and the undead, as well as more "traditional" encounters featuring just the players and a few opponents at a time. Leadership is not only allowed, but comes highly recommended for this one. Despite this, the PCs will be isolated for most of the campaign, meaning that once a follower is dead, it will not be replaced. The Exiled City will have some elements of horror, including lurid descriptions and creepy stuff, but is not designed to be a horror campaign.

Setting Info
Zelescoria, your home city, is the greatest presence of Evening Glory in the world. It is located in a vale-like gap within forested buttes on all sides, between which are many winding, naturally occurring corridors that serve as a protective maze. Death and undeath are seen as natural parts of life in Zelescoria, and the city's population is just as much undead as they are alive. Water for the city is provided by a network of underground springs, and food for the living portion of the population is attained by farming and hunting in the forests above the city. Zelescoria is also the closest settlement in the world to a structure known as the Harrow Gate, on the side of a mountain called Phuaoake's Needle, which leads to an ancient and mysterious city.

You can imagine your government's surprise when demons and unhallowed undead appeared on the outskirts of Zelescoria and began destroying the forest and crops. Scouts and divination suggest that the invaders emerged from Phuaoake's Needle, and based on the number of them which have appeared, your characters have been selected by the theocracy to investigate the cause of these incursions and deal with them as you see fit and as best protects Zelescoria.

The Approach
Possibly the shortest arc, herein we'll cover the generality of military logistics and travel from the outskirts of Zelescoria to Phuaoake's Needle. Low on story, but high on figuring how to play this game, what with its ambitious rules and all.

Taking the Gate
Prepare for your first real large scale battle, as Phuaoake's Needle is the location of the Harrow Gate. Without spoiling too much, this location is fortified by whoever is currently holding the Gate.

The Exiled City
The characters' first encounter and extended stay in the Exiled City, with plenty of opportunities to explore the environs and character climates.

The War of Chaos
Embroil yourselves in this ongoing war between demons and obyrith, hash out the truth of the danger, and determine for yourselves how to defend Zelescoria!

Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 02:59:05 PM
Alright, so with that Diadem I have gotten my Leadership score to 19 which means yay, I get an Elite follower.

Now I can get back to more important matters. Namely hashing out my potential menagerie.

Truthfully, I can tame probably anything short of 20 HD. Might even be able to tame a wild Rex if I work it right. Just need to Charm it long enough to make it friendly. Same with a Hydra even. (Although there is that Fast Empathy feat in PF to use Wild Empathy as a Standard...)

Anyone got any Beastmaster requests?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 08, 2017, 03:51:09 PM
Hey D, is Half-Minotaur (Dragon 313 (https://dnd.rem.uz/Dragon%20Magazine/301-350/Dragon%20Magazine%20%23313.pdf), pg 94) ok for a LA+1 template post-buyoff?

EDIT: Also, are armies equipped out of our WBL?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 04:03:02 PM
Hey D, is Half-Minotaur (Dragon 313 (https://dnd.rem.uz/Dragon%20Magazine/301-350/Dragon%20Magazine%20%23313.pdf), pg 94) ok for a LA+1 template post-buyoff?

EDIT: Also, are armies equipped out of our WBL?

If I recall right. We equip them from the NPC WBL chart. Although it is only for themselves, or the greater army. I'm deducting gold from each for example, to put towards their food and water.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 04:50:56 PM
Hey D, is Half-Minotaur (Dragon 313 (https://dnd.rem.uz/Dragon%20Magazine/301-350/Dragon%20Magazine%20%23313.pdf), pg 94) ok for a LA+1 template post-buyoff?

EDIT: Also, are armies equipped out of our WBL?

Half mino is fine, and the army has its own WBL, as Rekmond said.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 07:59:11 PM
question. Extraordinary Artisan seems to be intended to only discount Magical Items by the flavor text, but the actual wording says ANY item.

Do I get the RAW benefit? Will make kitting out my troops easier.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 08, 2017, 10:18:43 PM
Yes, the RAW benefit :)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 08, 2017, 11:25:49 PM
...I only just remembered that our Cohorts were able to take Traits and Flaws.

I have some cost calculation to redo.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 09, 2017, 01:20:52 AM
My cohort is Dread Necromancer 8 // Hexblade 6/Drow LA, and leadership stacking seems to be fair game, at least a little bit, so can I take undead leadership for him?

This will be mostly for the pool of animated dead purposes (and maybe a gravetouched ghoul as a cohort). But it might still be a edge.

(Actually, with My choice of bloodline as my homebrew, do other bloodlines from the same source also count?
Cause: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?204322-3-5e-Bloodline-Glamerkin-(PEACH)&p=11265857#post11265857 would be nice for my cohort)

Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Chemus on July 09, 2017, 01:28:48 AM
I'll now have to dust off my Spreadsheets and get some details back up. Again, my PC has one or two crafting Cohorts who can make items for pretty cheap. I don't recall if we were going to be able to use Ambrosia (from Distill Joy), but I was building as if we were...

Using the custom item pricing, there can be some pretty useful, cheap items possible. Of course we have to run them by Drammor first.

My PC was, so far, going to be... an Evolved Necropolitan Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar Paladin (of Slaughter)//Marshal/Ftr/LegendaryLeader, with 2 LA (1 each Draconic, and Evolved) not bought off, as that was costing full XP, with no extra gained back. (The template stacking was a peeve, as I recall)

Sample Crafting Cohort build link. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=17829.msg322021#msg322021)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 09, 2017, 01:46:34 AM
Can Followers craft items, and if so, what do they do about xp costs.

and just to be sure, the Deep Imaskari's Spell clutch ability does not apply to spontaneous casting like the warmages?

Edit: Also, healers have create food and water, which means that a we can craft food and water granting items. Which items work best?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on July 09, 2017, 01:54:24 AM
Oh I didn't notice this was ours.

"LEADER FEATS
This book introduces a new type of feat called leader feats.
Leader feats augment or alter the effects of the Leadership feat
(as presented on page 97 of the Player’s Handbook and described
in more detail on page 106 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide). Typically,
a leader feat affects your cohort and/or your followers but
has no effect on other allies.
 Since all leader feats include Leadership as a prerequisite,
their presence in the game is subject to the DM’s approval. If the
DM prefers not to include the Leadership feat in the campaign,
then all feats of the leader type are similarly off limits.
 In addition to their listed benefits, each leader feat taken by a
character improves his Leadership score by +1
."

Bottom paragraph on page 96 of Heroes of Battle.

So that counts Extra Followers, but does Might Makes Right count?


Edit: Also, yes, Evening Glory worship.

Also, somebody asked for a rundown on what we already have I forgot who....

ketaro is playing a WAAAAAAGH horde. 99% Orc Barbarians.

Edit2: My cohort has both Craft Arms & Armor and Craft Wondrous if anyone wants to donate a flying monster mount to the horde  :love
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 09, 2017, 02:38:26 AM
Wow, everyone else has such simple armys. I kinda shot myself in the foot there - I have about 40 short builds to go through now. Anyone have a good NPC stat block template?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 09, 2017, 04:06:04 AM
My cohort is Dread Necromancer 8 // Hexblade 6/Drow LA, and leadership stacking seems to be fair game, at least a little bit, so can I take undead leadership for him?

This will be mostly for the pool of animated dead purposes (and maybe a gravetouched ghoul as a cohort). But it might still be a edge.

(Actually, with My choice of bloodline as my homebrew, do other bloodlines from the same source also count?
Cause: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?204322-3-5e-Bloodline-Glamerkin-(PEACH)&p=11265857#post11265857 would be nice for my cohort)

Your cohorts may have leadership, and their cohorts, too. Followers may not. I should warn you about Leadership stacking, though. The unit in possession of the Leadership becomes a lynchpin; if they die, all of their followers may be lost. You can try to recruit them into missing numbers of your own followers, but you're more likely to see splintering, strife and rebellion.

Only PCs can have bloodlines. They are Special.

Can Followers craft items, and if so, what do they do about xp costs.

and just to be sure, the Deep Imaskari's Spell clutch ability does not apply to spontaneous casting like the warmages?

Edit: Also, healers have create food and water, which means that a we can craft food and water granting items. Which items work best?

Followers can craft items, and I suppose they'd use the same rules as cohorts, except that followers don't gain or lose levels when you do.

Quote
Cohorts are fixed at their maximum level and given an XP pool that puts them "halfway to their next level". They gain/lose a permanent level when you do. Their pool gains or loses XP as it is gained/spent but it doesn't affect their level.

No, the deep Imaskari's Spell Clutch applies only to prepared spell slots.

Oh I didn't notice this was ours.

"LEADER FEATS
This book introduces a new type of feat called leader feats.
Leader feats augment or alter the effects of the Leadership feat
(as presented on page 97 of the Player’s Handbook and described
in more detail on page 106 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide). Typically,
a leader feat affects your cohort and/or your followers but
has no effect on other allies.
 Since all leader feats include Leadership as a prerequisite,
their presence in the game is subject to the DM’s approval. If the
DM prefers not to include the Leadership feat in the campaign,
then all feats of the leader type are similarly off limits.
 In addition to their listed benefits, each leader feat taken by a
character improves his Leadership score by +1
."

Bottom paragraph on page 96 of Heroes of Battle.

So that counts Extra Followers, but does Might Makes Right count?


Edit: Also, yes, Evening Glory worship.

Also, somebody asked for a rundown on what we already have I forgot who....

ketaro is playing a WAAAAAAGH horde. 99% Orc Barbarians.

Edit2: My cohort has both Craft Arms & Armor and Craft Wondrous if anyone wants to donate a flying monster mount to the horde  :love

No, Might makes Right is not a [Leadership] feat.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on July 09, 2017, 06:06:18 AM
Fair enough considering it already adds a number rather than replacing one. ;)

What is everyone's leadership scores at the moment, by the way? I feel like I keep seeing scores being tossed around in the mid to upper 30s and I'm sitting here barely able to scrape out an upper 20s while still making myself a decent combatant -_-'
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 09, 2017, 09:03:45 AM
mine is the only high one that I know of - my bloodline gives me +HD again, which is why it is so high (currently 38). I also optimized pretty heavily for that, so I will be less useful in straight-up combat.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Vladeshi on July 09, 2017, 11:01:48 AM
Mine is also around 27 or so.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 09, 2017, 11:09:07 AM
I am sitting at a nice solid 19 without Cha boosters (Which I'm not certain I want to purchase, I need more direct combat potential)

As for food and water

I recommend the Field Provisions Box.  With a provided Create Food and Water spell, I can craft an item that feeds 15 medium sized characters for 750 gold.  *712.5 GP after applying 5% trait discount

50 gold apiece from their WBL isn't bad at all. *47.5 GP


Honestly bunking them might be more pricey. Anyone make a custom item for a deployable version of Leomund's Billet?  5th level Conjuration spell, houses 40 troops....seems perfect for our needs. I could house my regulars in one and put the officers up in a Daern's Instant Tent.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 09, 2017, 11:47:15 AM
Dunno if I missed these discussions from the original thread - what factors are contributing to Leadership? (What are we doing about reputation stuff? Are there more modifiers in Heroes of Battle that I'm forgetting?)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 09, 2017, 12:00:49 PM
I haven't touched reputation, and the only mods from Heroes of Battle are the Leader feats....unless you use that Substitute Military Rank for your Cha mod for purpose of determining Leadership score.

The others....Cha boosters, Might Makes Right to add Str to Leadership score as well...etc.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 09, 2017, 04:27:07 PM
Leadership is as it's presented in the DMG (with the exception that it extends into Epic Leadership automatically). However, we're not doing anything with reputation. Your characters may certainly gain reputations during the course of the adventure, but it's unlikely to have major impacts on your count of followers.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on July 09, 2017, 06:14:29 PM
I remember it being said in the previous thread that pretty much most, if not all, of the bonus modifiers under leadership were in effect (Great Renown, Fairness/Generosity, Special Power, has Stronghold/Base of Operations or similar)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 09, 2017, 06:43:55 PM
I'll go search the thread, then. I really need to make an index of all that...

Edit: Yup, there it is. As long as you're willing to roleplay it and it fits the character, go ahead and assume reputations are in effect. Stronghold, too, if you're willing to pay for one from your pyg bank.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 10, 2017, 10:02:15 AM
What feat do you need to take to be proficient in magonels? There is only one for ballistae in the main book.

Current theory is that I will field 7 heavy mangonels, and 28 light ones. At 4 crew for each heavy, and 2 for each light, and a few additional marshals, that makes the intended 90 men - Lesser Fire Gensai Fighters, level 2 for the heavy and Level 1 for the light. Each crew member pays for part of his weapon, and I have another 21 men to manage carts for these - one per heavy, one per two light. Is there any issue with this?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 10, 2017, 10:33:07 AM
I could've sworn Mangonels had wheels. And pretty sure their is no feat for them as they target a square, unlike a Ballista which fires as normal for a ranged weapon.

Are the carts for their ammo or something?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 10, 2017, 10:37:30 AM
I could've sworn Mangonels had wheels. And pretty sure their is no feat for them as they target a square, unlike a Ballista which fires as normal for a ranged weapon.

Are the carts for their ammo or something?

Ah, you are correct. I could swear that you have to dismantle a siege engine to move it.

Those who managed the carts, now simply manage the horses that drag that mangonels where they need to go. (and can provide a little impromptu handle animal for when such a thing comes in handy).

Edit: Drammor Said you needed one HD per animals HD to manage a exotic pet. I assume this doesn't count for horses, and one person can looks after at least 2-3 horses, despite thier larger HD. Because otherwise, horses to drag seige engines are going to need more managing that the engines themselves.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 10, 2017, 11:44:51 AM
Horses are hardly exotic though.

And you do dismantle them in a manner of speaking. I believe you undo the arm and pulley system so it can't be fired and can be moved easier.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 10, 2017, 11:47:07 AM
Horses are hardly exotic though.

And you do dismantle them in a manner of speaking. I believe you undo the arm and pulley system so it can't be fired and can be moved easier.

True true.

But thats not the same as breaking is down into parts and putting it on a cart, which is what I thought. No, much easier to have a light war-horse dragging each of them.

Edit: Speaking of siege equipment, Fielding Maugs, from the fiend folio, as ECL5 Followers is acceptable, right?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 10, 2017, 01:52:26 PM
Maugs are fine, yes.

And about taking care of horses and other normal animals? These are not exotic pets, like Rekmond said.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 11, 2017, 01:01:41 AM
Whats the difference between a exotic and non-exotic pet then? is a exotic pet anything which doesn't have included rules for pricing and raising it? So, Dire Bats, for instance?(Which have a listed DC, price, and raising cost, but are in a "Exotic Mounts" section of Arms and Equipment guide.)

Or is it just, anything which out civilisation has normally domesticated, vs. anything rare and interesting. (so horses or camels (or maybe oxen for loads) are the only militarily interesting non-exotic animal)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on July 11, 2017, 01:24:34 AM
I think exotic, purchasable/trainable creatures that are not in the PHB tend to be considered exotic (for the most part). For example, the various creatures in the various Monster Manuals that have little sections about purchasing them on the market and training them.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 11, 2017, 01:48:45 AM
Anyways, my services are available for training animals, if you have soldiers who can keep them under control.

I grabbed a few beasts for my forces. Effective ones though.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 11, 2017, 02:08:00 AM
I agree with ketaro about that, although many things from the Races books are probably also non-exotic.


On a different topic, I'm usually against revealing major villain information before the Knowledge check, but a recent conversation has lead me to believe we might like to do some calibrating. I want to make sure I'm challenging you guys, not annihilating you.

In the course of this campaign, you're going to come up against many different types of threats, and though they were design to kill each other, they'll be pretty good at killing you, too. For instance, we can all rest assured that there's not much point in overbuilding followers up to level 3, because the odds they'll survive for any significant length of time are really, really low.

On the other side of it (and I wish I weren't spoiling him), there's a villain with a breath weapon that hits a large area and does anywhere from 21 to 189 fire damage. The save is pretty low for his CR, but even at his median damage, that might be enough to reenact a Logi on your character's bones. It's probably the most egregious example of army-leveling goonery... but is this something you can withstand, or should I re-calibrate some of these threats?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 11, 2017, 07:07:26 AM
IF you use a night caller (from liber mortis) to animate dead, and them hand it someone else, you retain control over the created undead, right?

I also have also gone ahead with dire bat ownership - one in four of my scout/signaler follower (of which I have ~200) has one, and they all look after them, meaning 4 1HD barbarians looking after each bat, which is correct (I purchased them with the listed prices in the Arms and Equipment guide, though)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 11, 2017, 08:40:42 AM
If you use a night caller that way, yes, you retain ownership of the zombie.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 11, 2017, 08:44:01 AM
If you use a night caller that way, yes, you retain ownership of the zombie.

Cool, Cool. There will be a couple of those in my army.

Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 11, 2017, 09:52:51 AM
...zombies?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 11, 2017, 09:56:07 AM
...zombies?

Night callers - some of the low-level dread necros are sharing one.

Most of the undead in my army are using the ghoul savage progression from liber mortis, because Ghouls are awesome, and those slots are basically just there to be filled with reanimated corpses.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 11, 2017, 10:12:01 AM
I agree with ketaro about that, although many things from the Races books are probably also non-exotic.


On a different topic, I'm usually against revealing major villain information before the Knowledge check, but a recent conversation has lead me to believe we might like to do some calibrating. I want to make sure I'm challenging you guys, not annihilating you.

In the course of this campaign, you're going to come up against many different types of threats, and though they were design to kill each other, they'll be pretty good at killing you, too. For instance, we can all rest assured that there's not much point in overbuilding followers up to level 3, because the odds they'll survive for any significant length of time are really, really low.

On the other side of it (and I wish I weren't spoiling him), there's a villain with a breath weapon that hits a large area and does anywhere from 21 to 189 fire damage. The save is pretty low for his CR, but even at his median damage, that might be enough to reenact a Logi on your character's bones. It's probably the most egregious example of army-leveling goonery... but is this something you can withstand, or should I re-calibrate some of these threats?

I'll try to get some of my build put together so I can answer this question. I assume it's a Reflex save?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 11, 2017, 10:23:58 AM
Dread witch is a acceptable prestige class, no? (on the other side of a my dread neco cohort, which is no longer a hexblade, but instead a paladin of slaughter / dread witch.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 11, 2017, 11:01:43 AM
I agree with ketaro about that, although many things from the Races books are probably also non-exotic.


On a different topic, I'm usually against revealing major villain information before the Knowledge check, but a recent conversation has lead me to believe we might like to do some calibrating. I want to make sure I'm challenging you guys, not annihilating you.

In the course of this campaign, you're going to come up against many different types of threats, and though they were design to kill each other, they'll be pretty good at killing you, too. For instance, we can all rest assured that there's not much point in overbuilding followers up to level 3, because the odds they'll survive for any significant length of time are really, really low.

On the other side of it (and I wish I weren't spoiling him), there's a villain with a breath weapon that hits a large area and does anywhere from 21 to 189 fire damage. The save is pretty low for his CR, but even at his median damage, that might be enough to reenact a Logi on your character's bones. It's probably the most egregious example of army-leveling goonery... but is this something you can withstand, or should I re-calibrate some of these threats?

I'll try to get some of my build put together so I can answer this question. I assume it's a Reflex save?

Yes it is. Not something I wish to be on the wrong end of, understandably. Especially since I've got cold subtype...and fire REALLY hurts.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Chemus on July 11, 2017, 11:19:56 AM
I agree with ketaro about that, although many things from the Races books are probably also non-exotic.


On a different topic, I'm usually against revealing major villain information before the Knowledge check, but a recent conversation has lead me to believe we might like to do some calibrating. I want to make sure I'm challenging you guys, not annihilating you.

In the course of this campaign, you're going to come up against many different types of threats, and though they were design to kill each other, they'll be pretty good at killing you, too. For instance, we can all rest assured that there's not much point in overbuilding followers up to level 3, because the odds they'll survive for any significant length of time are really, really low.

On the other side of it (and I wish I weren't spoiling him), there's a villain with a breath weapon that hits a large area and does anywhere from 21 to 189 fire damage. The save is pretty low for his CR, but even at his median damage, that might be enough to reenact a Logi on your character's bones. It's probably the most egregious example of army-leveling goonery... but is this something you can withstand, or should I re-calibrate some of these threats?

I'm hoping that my calculation of 21d8 is correct (as I calculated your number range to indicate, though 189/21=9, so I could be wrong), but MY PC, a 9HD undead (d12) only has 60 HP (64 if getting 6.5/level rather than 6). Even at average damage (105 from your numbers) my PC and non-mook cohorts and followers would all be just about dead even on a save (52.5 damage average on a save).

Now, my army has a bit of ranged damage potential, some of which is force damage, to a range of 150' (at -8 penalty to hit) for the force javelins (1d6+str) that some of my cohorts and followers have, and 250' for my apparently ignorable flying mookey warlocks (2-3d6, IIRC, EB 1-2d6+ Chas. Fell Power for +1d6). This potential means that I might lose some to him once, but perhaps focused fire will prevent a second loss. Depending on how many of my army survive. Or if my PC survives charging a 'dragon'.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 11, 2017, 11:22:33 AM
I agree with ketaro about that, although many things from the Races books are probably also non-exotic.


On a different topic, I'm usually against revealing major villain information before the Knowledge check, but a recent conversation has lead me to believe we might like to do some calibrating. I want to make sure I'm challenging you guys, not annihilating you.

In the course of this campaign, you're going to come up against many different types of threats, and though they were design to kill each other, they'll be pretty good at killing you, too. For instance, we can all rest assured that there's not much point in overbuilding followers up to level 3, because the odds they'll survive for any significant length of time are really, really low.

On the other side of it (and I wish I weren't spoiling him), there's a villain with a breath weapon that hits a large area and does anywhere from 21 to 189 fire damage. The save is pretty low for his CR, but even at his median damage, that might be enough to reenact a Logi on your character's bones. It's probably the most egregious example of army-leveling goonery... but is this something you can withstand, or should I re-calibrate some of these threats?

I'm hoping that my calculation of 21d8 is correct (as I calculated your number range to indicate, though 189/21=9, so I could be wrong), but MY PC, a 9HD undead (d12) only has 60 HP (64 if getting 6.5/level rather than 6). Even at average damage (105 from your numbers) my PC and non-mook cohorts and followers would all be just about dead even on a save (52.5 damage average on a save).

Now, my army has a lot of ranged damage potential, some of which is force damage, to a range of 150' (at -8 penalty to hit) for the force javelins that some of my cohorts and followers have, and 250' for my apparently ignorable flying mookey warlocks.

Pretty much this for my guys too. But if we got the drop, or the breath was aimed at mooks, we might win. But it would be pretty much instant death to everything it hit.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 11, 2017, 11:31:23 AM
Hey Drammor, how does the Void Mind ability of Ahazu (Dungeon 148, pg 82) actually work? RAW, you spend a standard action in the morning after you bind Ahazu, and then, as long as you have it bound (i.e. for the rest of the day), you're immune to mind-affecting.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 11, 2017, 11:51:13 AM
Drammor: Gravetouched ghoul is LA2, so its not allowed, right?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 11, 2017, 11:54:53 AM
Understandable math on the face-melter, but it's only effectively 21 dice. I'm just gonna yoke him down a little bit, though. Free up a feat for something less nuclear.

Hey Drammor, how does the Void Mind ability of Ahazu (Dungeon 148, pg 82) actually work? RAW, you spend a standard action in the morning after you bind Ahazu, and then, as long as you have it bound (i.e. for the rest of the day), you're immune to mind-affecting.

According to RAW, apparently. There are not a lot of possible interpretations for what's written there.

Drammor: Gravetouched ghoul is LA2, so its not allowed, right?

Correct.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 11, 2017, 12:28:02 PM
Hey Drammor, how does the Void Mind ability of Ahazu (Dungeon 148, pg 82) actually work? RAW, you spend a standard action in the morning after you bind Ahazu, and then, as long as you have it bound (i.e. for the rest of the day), you're immune to mind-affecting.

According to RAW, apparently. There are not a lot of possible interpretations for what's written there.
Yeah that was my thought - I was giving you the opportunity to nerf it if you want, but hey I'm fine with it lol. It's a feat tax (I'd have to take Ignore Special Requirements unless we're going to be on the 73rd layer of the Abyss EVERY DAY) for immunity to mind-affecting. Welp.

Next question: how often can one use the Divination ability of Astaroth (Dragon 357, pg 68).

EDIT: Next next question. How does Otiax's Air Blast interact with actually wielding a weapon? Can I use it as an extra weapon? Does it count as wielding 2 weapons?

EDIT CONT'D: Does its damage change if you aren't Medium-sized? It seems to imply that the stats given are for Medium, since if you're Large, 10 feet away isn't a reach weapon. How does the "reach" part of it function if you're not Medium?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 11, 2017, 12:48:01 PM
Necropolitan Githzerai(Binder 4) // Totemist 6 is a fine undead cohort for undead leadership, right?
(Using the githzerai racial class from complete psionic, which is effectively LA 2, but gives its abilities in dribs and drabs to prevent getting plane shift at level 3.)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 11, 2017, 12:51:38 PM
Hey Drammor, how does the Void Mind ability of Ahazu (Dungeon 148, pg 82) actually work? RAW, you spend a standard action in the morning after you bind Ahazu, and then, as long as you have it bound (i.e. for the rest of the day), you're immune to mind-affecting.

According to RAW, apparently. There are not a lot of possible interpretations for what's written there.
Yeah that was my thought - I was giving you the opportunity to nerf it if you want, but hey I'm fine with it lol. It's a feat tax (I'd have to take Ignore Special Requirements unless we're going to be on the 73rd layer of the Abyss EVERY DAY) for immunity to mind-affecting. Welp.

Next question: how often can one use the Divination ability of Astaroth (Dragon 357, pg 68).

EDIT: Next next question. How does Otiax's Air Blast interact with actually wielding a weapon? Can I use it as an extra weapon? Does it count as wielding 2 weapons?

EDIT CONT'D: Does its damage change if you aren't Medium-sized? It seems to imply that the stats given are for Medium, since if you're Large, 10 feet away isn't a reach weapon. How does the "reach" part of it function if you're not Medium?

1) Once per day. Twice per day at EBL 13, and three times per day at EBL 19.
2) What a sticky wicket. No, it doesn't count as wielding a weapon (or two), so you can use it as an extra weapon even if your hands are full.
3) Its damage doesn't change if you're more than Medium-sized, but its effective reach does.

Necropolitan Githzerai(Binder 4) // Totemist 6 is a fine undead cohort for undead leadership, right?
(Using the githzerai racial class from complete psionic, which is effectively LA 2, but gives its abilities in dribs and drabs to prevent getting plane shift at level 3.)

It's fine with me, but make sure your cohort picks up Undead Meldshaper, because it would be embarrassing if your totemist cohort couldn't shape soulmelds.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 11, 2017, 12:59:20 PM

Necropolitan Githzerai(Binder 4) // Totemist 6 is a fine undead cohort for undead leadership, right?
(Using the githzerai racial class from complete psionic, which is effectively LA 2, but gives its abilities in dribs and drabs to prevent getting plane shift at level 3.)

It's fine with me, but make sure your cohort picks up Undead Meldshaper, because it would be embarrassing if your totemist cohort couldn't shape soulmelds.

Of course.  :) 

By the way, can my cohort/followers count as being made by their master for the purposes of undead mastery (+4 str and dex, +2hp/level on creatures made by dread necromancer 8 )
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 11, 2017, 01:03:59 PM
OK cool. I think I'm going to stay away from Ahazu, it just feels like cheese to me. It's more optimal than Otiax (esp. w/ the 45-foot blindsight), but I think Otiax will be more fun. :D
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 11, 2017, 01:08:13 PM
Of course.  :) 

By the way, can my cohort/followers count as being made by their master for the purposes of undead mastery (+4 str and dex, +2hp/level on creatures made by dread necromancer 8 )

Sure, that's what I did.

Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 11, 2017, 01:14:19 PM
UGH MORE QUESTIONS. I just realized I've been operating under two assumptions:
1. Feats gained via vestiges can be used to meet prereqs ( <~~ why Otiax vs Ahazu matters, since I'd be sticking w/ the same 2 vestiges at all times)
2. Retraining is allowed.

Are both of those ok? How does #2 work?

The specific things I was planning on were (a) retraining my Weapon Focus to Bastard Sword (whose proficiency I get from binding Kas), and (b) retraining a feat into Trained Opportunist (since I'm planning on getting Combat Reflexes from Otiax).

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 11, 2017, 01:23:21 PM
Feats gained via vestiges can be used to meet prereqs, although any time the vestige isn't bound, you don't have the feat, as normal.

Retraining is allowed in general.

However, as a corollary, you cannot retrain a feat being given to you by a vestige, because the knowledge isn't yours.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 11, 2017, 01:26:52 PM
Feats gained via vestiges can be used to meet prereqs, although any time the vestige isn't bound, you don't have the feat, as normal.

Retraining is allowed in general.

However, as a corollary, you cannot retrain a feat being given to you by a vestige, because the knowledge isn't yours.
Right, that shouldn't be a problem. I want both of my vestige feats :D
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 11, 2017, 01:41:37 PM
By the way, you meant Clever Opportunist, right?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 11, 2017, 01:50:00 PM
By the way, you meant Clever Opportunist, right?
Trained Opportunist is a Bladecraft feat. Gives you extra AoOs equal to your Bladecraft ranks, which you can only use for Blade Techniques.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 11, 2017, 02:16:16 PM
Trained Opportunist and Combat Reflexes? That's hilarious. All you need now is a way to move between AoOs and you could practically fight an army all by yourself!
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 11, 2017, 02:33:56 PM
Trained Opportunist and Combat Reflexes? That's hilarious. All you need now is a way to move between AoOs and you could practically fight an army all by yourself!
Opportunistic Tactician, Dragon #340 pg 87. Take a free 5-foot step after making an AoO.

Combine with Improved Combat Reflexes (same source) to make 2 AoOs every time you get to make an AoO. (If I had BAB +11, I could also include Greater Combat Reflexes to get a 3rd AoO each time.)

I'm not taking Opportunist Tactician, though. It requires Dodge and Mobility, which suck.

Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 11, 2017, 02:40:06 PM
I see you've thought this through. Bravo.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 11, 2017, 07:23:20 PM
I see you've thought this through. Bravo.
The problem with this build (because of Bladecraft) is that I have a ton of directions I COULD go. I could optimize TWF, or shields, or AoOs, or tripping, or bull-rushing. I could also be a lot more aggressive with my vestige choices than I'm being. So I've had to make some choices about what to focus on, and I actually have decided to focus significantly less than I could.

You'll see all this when I actually post the build, but the choices I've made are:
- Use Binder as a vehicle for 4 relatively minor things: (1) making my feat selection a tiny, tiny bit easier; (2) up my Will save somewhat; (3) collect a few interesting but not essential abilities; (4) be a bit deadlier against undead (less so than I could be).
- Optimize shield use, and a tiny bit of AoOs, instead of any of the other optimizations I could do (no optimizations for tripping, bull-rushing {no Dungeoncrasher, for example}, or charging). Part of that is from Bladecraft making it easy to dabble in various strategies, and part of it is from me rarely getting a chance to use shields in an interesting way.
- Put effort into optimizing my Leadership & my army & cohort. That's a big draw for the game, and it'll make me a worse fighter but a more fun character.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Chemus on July 11, 2017, 09:53:49 PM
And here I was with just umpty jillion followers, making flying-mounted chargers and flying monkey warlocks, with some crafters thrown in. I've even made a 'flying' (floating+sails and a cheap gust-of-wind knockoff) ship as my mobile stronghold and a lyre of building for making a stationary stronghold at need (With enough time).
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on July 12, 2017, 02:16:40 AM
Who's our necromancer!? I need a zombie dragon for my thematic! Preferably Huge! Willing to trade......things....


@Drammor:
That long lost Warlord Bonus feat I totally forgot about, can I Ferocious Tenacity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ferocious-tenacity-combat/)? Considering your recent.....spoiler....This one comes off as too delicious. I figured it working in 3.5 as just sacrificing X number of rounds remaining in my current rage for -X amount of damage taken. The feat essentially losing power the longer my rage has been running~

With this I'd be 100% done. Compared to the 99% done I've been for weeks now and having forgotten there was another 1% missing  ;)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 12, 2017, 02:20:53 AM
Who's our necromancer!? I need a zombie dragon for my thematic! Preferably Huge! Willing to trade......things....


@Drammor:
That long lost Warlord Bonus feat I totally forgot about, can I Ferocious Tenacity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ferocious-tenacity-combat/)? Considering your recent.....spoiler....This one comes off as too delicious. I figured it working in 3.5 as just sacrificing X number of rounds remaining in my current rage for -X amount of damage taken. The feat essentially losing power the longer my rage has been running~

With this I'd be 100% done. Compared to the 99% done I've been for weeks now and having forgotten there was another 1% missing  ;)

I have a necromancer cohort, but the cap on undead leadership is a 3rd level follower. If you can get me a huge dragon corpse, I will be happy to animate it, of course. I thought we had a primary necromancer somewhere too?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on July 12, 2017, 02:24:20 AM
@Drammor I need a Huge dragon corpse, pregame. What's that gonna run me?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 12, 2017, 07:16:58 AM
Drammor: Does the banner of the storms eye use a slot when held using a backpack frame? - I see no RAW that indicates it does, but it seems wise to check.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 12, 2017, 07:34:56 AM
@Drammor I need a Huge dragon corpse, pregame. What's that gonna run me?

It really depends on what you're going for. Assuming you're trying to save money and not hemorrhage it, you can find some Dragon type creatures in the discount bin, and you can snag some weird dragons with the lowest HD possible but end up paying for extra costs because these CRs are beyond you, or you can opt for the more common option of a young adult red dragon, which is going to cost you 2263 gold for the corpse, plus the fees of the mercenary dragon slayers you'd have to hire (since a young adult red dragon is way beyond your own CR).

Finding and hunting a dragon of the appropriate size is going to take a team of four level 12 mercenaries (one leader, one controller, one striker and one defender) two weeks of planning and action (1288 gold). Assuming only two spellcasters, you can count on there being four level 6 spells cast (2880 gold, plus some lower-level spells I wouldn't count). Fortunately, they have circumstances going in their favor (red dragons are arrogant and confident), so an ambush in an unfortified location is a viable strategy, meaning that the costs end there. Technically, there should be more, but it's getting into gritty details at that point. Anyway, the total comes up to 6,430 gold, which you could probably Diplomance down to 5,145, assuming you can pull a series of three DC 30 or higher checks off with a 55% or greater chance of success.

Drammor: Does the banner of the storms eye use a slot when held using a backpack frame? - I see no RAW that indicates it does, but it seems wise to check.

I can't see any evidence suggesting that it does.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 12, 2017, 07:44:56 AM
Ah, it also occurs to me that such a creature might have too many HD to animate- give CL*2 as the limit of a single spell, I cannot raise anything greater than 16HD, unless the dread necromancer's undead mastery applies to that limit also, or we have a convenient area of a desecrate effect.

So, add a casting of desecrate to the costs above, I guess is the key point.

Edit: Drammor: Do maugs qualify for use of the elite array due to being ECL5? In general, do followers with level adjustment use their HD or their ECL to determine which stat array they use?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 12, 2017, 10:50:37 AM
Followers with ECL 5 or more qualify for the elite array. Followers with ECL 4 or less do not.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 12, 2017, 03:12:06 PM
@Drammor:
That long lost Warlord Bonus feat I totally forgot about, can I Ferocious Tenacity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ferocious-tenacity-combat/)? Considering your recent.....spoiler....This one comes off as too delicious. I figured it working in 3.5 as just sacrificing X number of rounds remaining in my current rage for -X amount of damage taken. The feat essentially losing power the longer my rage has been running~

With this I'd be 100% done. Compared to the 99% done I've been for weeks now and having forgotten there was another 1% missing  ;)

Yes, Ferocious Tenacity is fine.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on July 13, 2017, 12:52:52 AM
I have acquired the funds to purchase the corpse of a young adult red dragon!

Do we have a necromancer that can raise a 19 HD critter for me? I'll still offer you......things.....  :D
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 13, 2017, 12:56:42 AM
The animation costs a bit from material costs.
150gp for a scroll of desercate
~500gp for the onyx.

But it can be done.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 14, 2017, 11:37:42 AM
Hey Drammor, sorry it's taking me so long. I haven't even got to my cohort and army yet - picking Blade Techniques is a HUGE pain, trying to get everything to work together. Lol, I guess.

It's interesting - I'm getting the impression that Bladecraft is almost anti-optimization, since it's turning out to be almost impossible to specialize in anything. Hopefully I can figure out something that works, and I won't have to go back to the drawing board. :)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Vladeshi on July 14, 2017, 07:47:51 PM
I have acquired the funds to purchase the corpse of a young adult red dragon!

Do we have a necromancer that can raise a 19 HD critter for me? I'll still offer you......things.....  :D

Dragon Zombie Delivery Service is here with your order! :devil
Done and done.
Spell-like abilities for the win.

I just ran the numbers and this monstrosity will have 284 hit points.  :evillaugh

Sorry for not posting recently.
My characters and army should be ready and posted over the weekend.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on July 14, 2017, 10:03:53 PM
I have acquired the funds to purchase the corpse of a young adult red dragon!

Do we have a necromancer that can raise a 19 HD critter for me? I'll still offer you......things.....  :D

Dragon Zombie Delivery Service is here with your order! :devil
Done and done.
Spell-like abilities for the win.

I just ran the numbers and this monstrosity will have 284 hit points.  :evillaugh

Sorry for not posting recently.
My characters and army should be ready and posted over the weekend.

 :jumping
Really!? Oh my gosh I love you Vlad~
Is it just the Zombie template? Do you have extra bonuses on raised undead? So I could throw together the statblock myself. Unless you already did.  :D

Ted grants ye favors of your choosing.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Vladeshi on July 14, 2017, 10:35:29 PM
I have acquired the funds to purchase the corpse of a young adult red dragon!

Do we have a necromancer that can raise a 19 HD critter for me? I'll still offer you......things.....  :D

Dragon Zombie Delivery Service is here with your order! :devil
Done and done.
Spell-like abilities for the win.

I just ran the numbers and this monstrosity will have 284 hit points.  :evillaugh

Sorry for not posting recently.
My characters and army should be ready and posted over the weekend.

 :jumping
Really!? Oh my gosh I love you Vlad~
Is it just the Zombie template? Do you have extra bonuses on raised undead? So I could throw together the statblock myself. Unless you already did.  :D

Ted grants ye favors of your choosing.

Zombie Dragon template from Draconomicon, that means it keeps: breath weapon(at half damage), BAB(a normal 19 HD zombie would have a +9, but yours gets +19),
base saving throw bonuses(dragons get all good saves), and gains 2 bonus hit points per HD this way.

For being made by me personally it gains:
+6 hit points per HD
+4 str and dex
+4 to initiative
+10ft base land speed
20% more awesome than any other Zombie Dragon.

But i should probably make the statblock, because it will still be under my control, I will just tell it to follow your orders.

As for the favor....
How about your soul?
.... I think I will hold onto the favor for now. :plotting
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 14, 2017, 11:53:32 PM
Hey Drammor, sorry it's taking me so long. I haven't even got to my cohort and army yet - picking Blade Techniques is a HUGE pain, trying to get everything to work together. Lol, I guess.

It's interesting - I'm getting the impression that Bladecraft is almost anti-optimization, since it's turning out to be almost impossible to specialize in anything. Hopefully I can figure out something that works, and I won't have to go back to the drawing board. :)

Take your time. Only ketaro has their character sheets up right now, so everyone else is effectively in the same place you are. It also gives me more time to flesh out various facets of the campaign before we dive into it.


I have acquired the funds to purchase the corpse of a young adult red dragon!

Do we have a necromancer that can raise a 19 HD critter for me? I'll still offer you......things.....  :D

Dragon Zombie Delivery Service is here with your order! :devil
Done and done.
Spell-like abilities for the win.

I just ran the numbers and this monstrosity will have 284 hit points.  :evillaugh

Sorry for not posting recently.
My characters and army should be ready and posted over the weekend.

Pretty decent for a mascot.

Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Vladeshi on July 16, 2017, 01:15:39 PM
Trying to finish my last cohort and this question suddenly hit me.
Since there is no alignment, what happens to alignment subtypes such as Outsider(Evil)?
This question is primarily angled at selecting favored enemies for a Ranger.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 16, 2017, 04:27:15 PM
There are no alignment subtypes.

This would be a great upgrade for rangers, since it means Outsider can be its own category of enemy, but you must also realize that in this campaign, the odds of finding an Outsider that would not have had the Evil subtype are all but nil. It would have come out to the same effect, either way.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 17, 2017, 03:15:44 AM
Are we using the core diplomacy, or something else?

Because the core diplomacy is kinda silly.

Relevant reading:
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/diplomacy-design.html
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/diplomacy.html
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 17, 2017, 01:48:25 PM
Your question leads to a can of worms I was hoping we wouldn't need to address. Using simple DCs to cover something as complex as Diplomacy is something I'm not comfortable with in the first place, since at all levels, Diplomacy is an easy skill to pump. It really becomes a question of whether you're optimized enough to pass a check with statistical reliability, whether you're using the Burlew solution or not.

There are more complex simulations we could use, but I'm loathe to make 3.5 any more simulationist than it already is. If you have suggestions that result in neither more complicated simulations nor single axis Boolean operators, then I'm all ears. Otherwise, I suppose I can start work on a different subsystem that will hopefully address these problems without getting too crazy.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 17, 2017, 02:23:58 PM
Is anyone even planning to make it a problem though? The system is flawed, no argument, but it works fine until people start going out of their way to break it.

I'll admit, Wild Empathy uses the same rules as Diplomacy Checks, but even then I'm not making every animal I meet Helpful. Nor do I ever intend to do so.


I'd think it fits in with your optimization level rule honestly, check what kind of tomfoolery someone can manage, and if need be, pull out a hammer and take the Diplomacy rules back to the forge.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 17, 2017, 03:10:34 PM
I could take a page from Legend and go with a social bartering system, tripped by a sufficiently high check, sort of like how Knowledge is a-ok for anyone up to 10.

Like... and I'm just throwing ideas at a wall here, but any check of DC 20 or greater requires a social encounter. In a social encounter, each player starts with N tokens, and they can earn or lose tokens based on a number of opposed checks equal to the avenues of address they attempt. Then, at the end of the encounter, they "purchase" their results with tokens, from among the possible results they vied for. Players might start with a number of tokens equal to their Cha mod, and stand to gain or lose up to 2 at a time for making a request.

I could even update the Diplomacy feats and tricks to reflect this system. It wouldn't take me but a couple of hours.

It's complex and simulationey, but still an abstraction I can wrap my head around, and it stops players from turning enemy factions into fanatic followers without serious investment.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Vladeshi on July 17, 2017, 06:09:24 PM
Like... and I'm just throwing ideas at a wall here, but any check of DC 20 or greater requires a social encounter. In a social encounter, each player starts with N tokens, and they can earn or lose tokens based on a number of opposed checks equal to the avenues of address they attempt. Then, at the end of the encounter, they "purchase" their results tokens, from among the possible results they vied for. Players might start with a number of tokens equal to their Cha mod, and stand to gain or lose up to 2 at a time for making a request.

I kind of like this idea.
I wasn't planning on making it a problem, but something like this might help prevent my +21 Diplomacy and +29 Intimidate from rolling entire armies out of our way by accident.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 17, 2017, 08:49:02 PM
Like... and I'm just throwing ideas at a wall here, but any check of DC 20 or greater requires a social encounter. In a social encounter, each player starts with N tokens, and they can earn or lose tokens based on a number of opposed checks equal to the avenues of address they attempt. Then, at the end of the encounter, they "purchase" their results tokens, from among the possible results they vied for. Players might start with a number of tokens equal to their Cha mod, and stand to gain or lose up to 2 at a time for making a request.

This sounds pretty cool, I'd you can get something hacked together with out too much pain on your part. I like the idea of negotiation being possible, and of it having consequences, negative and positive, which are not, "welp, that encounter is negated by one roll you automatically passed at trivial cost"

My character is pretty social too. I think maybe +28 diplomacy, and a pretty high intimate. I did take some actual diplomancy stuff, like warlock for beguiling influence.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 17, 2017, 08:51:19 PM
*looks at his +20 diplomacy*

Somehow I get the feeling I focused elsewhere. Least I know I'm a decent frontliner.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on July 18, 2017, 12:48:20 AM
I'm an Orc.
It's a bloody miracle I even have +10 Diplomancy :p
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 18, 2017, 09:34:06 PM
Here's what I derped up in the last 24 hours.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 18, 2017, 09:45:13 PM
Here's what I derped up in the last 24 hours.

(click to show/hide)

This seems pretty good. I like it a lot

Perhaps the main thing it could use is functions for the other social skills, like intimidate and sense motive.

(How does rushing a check work in this context. Naberius lets me do the for free.)
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 18, 2017, 09:50:42 PM
Making the initial Diplomacy check still requires 1 minute to work, as normal. Rushing the check makes it take 1 full-round action, instead, but imposes a -10 penalty on the check. Naberius lets you do this without the penalty.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 18, 2017, 09:51:33 PM
Ah sure. Cool cool.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 18, 2017, 11:27:00 PM
If this system appeals to everyone, I'll get started on the feats, Intimidate and Sense Motive.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on July 20, 2017, 04:33:00 AM
So how much more work do people estimate needing to do?

I could likely be done tomorrow if I just sat down and bought gear.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on July 20, 2017, 04:42:09 AM
So how much more work do people estimate needing to do?

I could likely be done tomorrow if I just sat down and bought gear.

I have to compile a bunch of notes into the character sheets for my cohorts.

My followers are horrifically incomplete, and don't have gear purchased right up to the line of their WBL, but the broad strokes are there - I think choosing their feats and a rough outline of what skills they have would be enough to let me calculate everything else when I need to.

What do other people think (noting that I currently have 46 types to write up if people think I should).

I might want to do actual character sheets for the level 8-9 ones though.

If I left the broad strokes of the followers in place and didn't do them in detail, I could probably finish by tomorrow too.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on July 20, 2017, 07:09:59 AM
I'm nowhere near done. If everyone else is ready to go, I'm ok with sitting this game out... if other people have a lot of work, then I'll keep chugging away.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Vladeshi on July 20, 2017, 01:19:36 PM
I still have to buy gear for everyone and finish up a cohort, oddly enough my followers have all been done for weeks before all of my characters except for gear.

On the subject of gear, since some Pathfinder is permitted, I would like to request permission to use Muleback Cords from the Advanced Players Guide.
They are a 1000 GP Wondrous item that increases your Str by 8, but only for carrying capacity.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on July 20, 2017, 01:49:57 PM
Muleback Cords are a-okay.

Seriously though, can I get some feedback on that Diplomacy system?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Vladeshi on July 20, 2017, 02:09:57 PM
Muleback Cords are a-okay.
Yay! I love these things.

Seriously though, can I get some feedback on that Diplomacy system?
It feels a little over-complicated and it will probably take a few uses of it before I feel that I understand it and am comfortable using it, but that is how all new mechanics feel to me.
Overall it looks good, it will probably need some playtesting to make sure that you didn't miss a huge problem, but that is why you have us. :D
You might want to also post it in the Homebrew section to see if you can get feedback from some of the posters that are not involved with this pbp.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on August 01, 2017, 09:28:20 AM
It's very very quiet.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on August 01, 2017, 09:33:33 AM
It's very very quiet.

I'm still here. I'm nearly done, too.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on August 02, 2017, 11:23:14 AM
I am also still here. :) Just waiting to hear status updates.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on August 03, 2017, 04:55:11 AM
Gosh, would you believe I only just now looked up who Evening Glory is and I'm now running a horde of frenzied orcs rampaging about screaming about love or death  :rolleyes

I want to paint my orcs like skeletons and call make them fervently call themselves Borcs and to literally crush people to death in loving embraces if they dare mock them.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: sirpercival on August 07, 2017, 09:52:27 AM
Hey Dram, as much as I completely love the idea of doing this, I've been hit by a bunch of new projects at work, so I don't even have time to finish my char, let alone actually coordinate an army in another PbP. Sorry.... I was really looking forward to this. :( :( :( Maybe if you guys haven't started yet by the time things calm down... or if there's an easy way to bring in another army.... or whatever. I'll check back in when I have more time.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on August 07, 2017, 11:38:09 PM
Hey Dram, as much as I completely love the idea of doing this, I've been hit by a bunch of new projects at work, so I don't even have time to finish my char, let alone actually coordinate an army in another PbP. Sorry.... I was really looking forward to this. :( :( :( Maybe if you guys haven't started yet by the time things calm down... or if there's an easy way to bring in another army.... or whatever. I'll check back in when I have more time.

Ah, that's a shame. Who is still in, and how much prep do they have left to do, then?
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on August 08, 2017, 12:50:31 AM
In, and literally been done for literally ever  :p
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on August 08, 2017, 01:40:28 AM
Hey Dram, as much as I completely love the idea of doing this, I've been hit by a bunch of new projects at work, so I don't even have time to finish my char, let alone actually coordinate an army in another PbP. Sorry.... I was really looking forward to this. :( :( :( Maybe if you guys haven't started yet by the time things calm down... or if there's an easy way to bring in another army.... or whatever. I'll check back in when I have more time.

Aw darn. It would have been good to have you. It is possible to bring a player in late, and may even be feasible, depending on what your allies can accomplish with regards to the gate. So, if you're up for it at a later time, I think we can arrange something.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on August 08, 2017, 11:58:17 PM
Still present and All I have left to do is decide how to spend the last of my 7K gold.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on August 17, 2017, 02:25:24 PM
C'mon people. Speak. Let us know that you yet live.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: ketaro on September 20, 2017, 05:49:27 AM
How's everybody coming alooooooooooong?  :p
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Archon on September 20, 2017, 06:57:38 PM
I am alive, and as done as I will ever be.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Rekmond on September 21, 2017, 12:43:59 PM
been done for a while now.

Seen Drammor about but I think he's been busy.
Title: Re: Character Generation and Discussion
Post by: Drammor on October 20, 2017, 08:15:36 PM
I'm still alive, but I've picked up a lot of extra work to take care of these days. Between prepping our house for self-sufficiency and more responsibilities in meatspace, I haven't got the time to run this right now. :( That may change, but I'm not going to count on it. I'll have to retire the game for now, and bring it out of retirement if there's a major change in my day to day.