Fun Finds v4.0

[snakeman830]

Still, "Spells" does not have a save DC.  While you could select Ability Focus (Spells) RAW, it won't do anything.

Now, selecting Ability Focus for a specific spell would be a different story.  It would still fall under special attacks, but now we actually have a save DC to add to (assuming the spell has a save).

[Sinfire Titan]

Doesn't the SS do the same with all creatures?

Not the way PGtF does it. You start as the full-blown Adult Force Dragon, but have a penalty to most d20 rolls equal to what your ECL adjustment is.

Specifically, it's a -X penalty to skill checks, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, the save DC of spells/SLAs/SUAs, and to your AC (but only up to what your race provides in terms of natural armor, dodge bonuses, deflection bonuses, and so forth; Dex bonus is unaffected). You then get all of your racial traits, RHD, feats, skill points, etc. Those penalties won't mean shit.

Oh, and the penalty is technically equal to the level adjustment, not ECL adjustment. So you'd start with a -0, and the stats of an Adult Force Dragon.

[Chemus]

Still, "Spells" does not have a save DC.  While you could select Ability Focus (Spells) RAW, it won't do anything.

Now, selecting Ability Focus for a specific spell would be a different story.  It would still fall under special attacks, but now we actually have a save DC to add to (assuming the spell has a save).

Snakeman seems to have the right of it; Consider the Solar; SLA's and Spells both. Ability focus would have to work for all of a creature's SLA's to work for all of a creature's Spells; they're described identically. The spells can be changed is all.

[linklord231]

Still, "Spells" does not have a save DC.  While you could select Ability Focus (Spells) RAW, it won't do anything.

Now, selecting Ability Focus for a specific spell would be a different story.  It would still fall under special attacks, but now we actually have a save DC to add to (assuming the spell has a save).

You follow all the same rules as normal spellcasting, which includes the setting the DC to 10+spell level+primary stat mod.  Monsters might have issues with determining which stat is primary, but you should be able to figure it out easily enough. 

Edit:

Snakeman seems to have the right of it; Consider the Solar; SLA's and Spells both. Ability focus would have to work for all of a creature's SLA's to work for all of a creature's Spells; they're described identically. The spells can be changed is all.

You would appear to be correct.  I'll have to think about this some more.

[Chemus]

You follow all the same rules as normal spellcasting, which includes the setting the DC to 10+spell level+primary stat mod.  Monsters might have issues with determining which stat is primary, but you should be able to figure it out easily enough.

Actually, the ability that the Saves are based off of is listed. For example, Solars use Wisdom; "...The save DCs are Wisdom-based.", to quote the SRD's entry. Note the plural on 'DCs', however, as well as the plurals on 'Spell Like Abilities' and 'Spells' as well. Each spell/SLA is a special ability. Not each school or all spells/SLAs at once.

If the Special Ability were named 'Spell Casting', it might be one ability for the purpose of Ability Focus, but it's not.

You would appear to be correct.  I'll have to think about this some more.
« Last Edit: Today at 10:45:20 AM by linklord231 »

Ahh ninja edits are awesome-sauce

[JaronK]

To be fair, a stat block or a table (let alone a stat block in a table, like some creatures have) is a secondary/tertiary source, even though it appears in a "primary sourcebook". 

Actually, I was mostly referring to the general entry in MM about Special Attacks... it lists Spells there as an example.  This is in addition to the whole 'every stat block says it" issue.  So... primary and secondary sources agree. 

The fact that spells have different DCs (and some don't even have a DC) is kind of irrelevant here, since the prerequisite is only that it be a Special Attack.  Which it is.  How it functions is unclear... and I highly doubt Ability Focus was intended to be used this way.  Once again, the designers forgot to consider spellcasting when they wrote something that cares about ability types.  What a shock!

JaronK

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Not the way PGtF does it. You start as the full-blown Adult Force Dragon, but have a penalty to most d20 rolls equal to what your ECL adjustment is.

Specifically, it's a -X penalty to skill checks, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, the save DC of spells/SLAs/SUAs, and to your AC (but only up to what your race provides in terms of natural armor, dodge bonuses, deflection bonuses, and so forth; Dex bonus is unaffected). You then get all of your racial traits, RHD, feats, skill points, etc. Those penalties won't mean shit.

Oh, and the penalty is technically equal to the level adjustment, not ECL adjustment. So you'd start with a -0, and the stats of an Adult Force Dragon.

  ... Tell me again why no one's ever bothered with playing an Adult Force Dragon from level 1 (with some -44 penalties).

[Jackinthegreen]

Not the way PGtF does it. You start as the full-blown Adult Force Dragon, but have a penalty to most d20 rolls equal to what your ECL adjustment is.

Specifically, it's a -X penalty to skill checks, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, the save DC of spells/SLAs/SUAs, and to your AC (but only up to what your race provides in terms of natural armor, dodge bonuses, deflection bonuses, and so forth; Dex bonus is unaffected). You then get all of your racial traits, RHD, feats, skill points, etc. Those penalties won't mean shit.

Oh, and the penalty is technically equal to the level adjustment, not ECL adjustment. So you'd start with a -0, and the stats of an Adult Force Dragon.

  ... Tell me again why no one's ever bothered with playing an Adult Force Dragon from level 1 (with some -44 penalties).

Book to the head!

[SorO_Lost]

However, Spells are still listed under Special Attacks (renamed to just "SA") in the new statblocks.

That's a highly inaccurate statement.

Since it's technically off topic;

(click to show/hide)

The left hand side is a Hobgoblin with levels in the Duskblade Class.
It does not list Spells as a Special Attack.

The right hand side is a Hobgoblin Warcaster with the new unique Arcane Talent Extraordinary ability.
It lists Spells under SA.

At this level it's impossible to say Spells are a Special Attack, because you literately have proof otherwise. If you wanted to rule accurately, rather than coming off like you're shoving your head up a small orifice you'd look at what's really going on.

Spells: Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. <snip>

Literately Spells is classified as an untyped trait. Which means it is not a Special Ability.

This is backed up by;

SPECIAL ABILITY DESCRIPTIONS
The final portion of the statistics block consists of paragraphs explaining special abilities noted earlier. When you’re running a monster, it’s good to be familiar with these descriptions beforehand. However, they are written for ease of use and include important information such as save DCs and damage.

If the right hand's listing of Spells is accurate, then it must list Spells in the Special Ability Description area. The right sided example block of course does not.

So the first thought, if you ever had one that didn't make you see stars, should be that it's an error on the publisher's part to list Spells under SA in the Hobgoblin's block. After all, we're discussing the MMV here, primary source on Spells & Magic, including Special Abilities, is in the PHB and not the MM line. And those rules have never once said Spells are Special Abilities and have quietly thoroughly separated the two.

Now I prefer to read into things and attempt to rationalize why something is there. After all, the author put it there and the editor (supposedly) went over it. My explanation is the point out that Arcane Talent is Ex based, just as Divine Talent is. Those unique Abilities are the reason "Spells" is listed under SA in the new style of blocks. Because they do in fact have a Special Ability granting them Spellcasting. If your fucking retarded, you may claim something else entirely. Like saying one word out of a creature state block in a secondary source sets the rules in all cases for instance.

Also we're on page 50. Time for a new thread

[zook1shoe]

continue to Fun Finds 4.0

[Sinfire Titan]

Closed due to page limit.