Egocentric Bastards...

[bhu]

Which one is founded on particular ideals?

Eh, that's enough politics for me for one week. I'm trying to become less jaded, not more.

Founded or not matters little enough if they both end in the same destination   

Play with small fluffy animals, that's usually good for cheering people up. 

[Raineh Daze]

Which one is founded on particular ideals?

Eh, that's enough politics for me for one week. I'm trying to become less jaded, not more.

Founded or not matters little enough if they both end in the same destination   

Play with small fluffy animals, that's usually good for cheering people up. 

Oh, I'm not upset, I just don't want to accrue cynicism. That's such a boring path.

[Jackinthegreen]

Which one is founded on particular ideals?

Eh, that's enough politics for me for one week. I'm trying to become less jaded, not more.

Founded or not matters little enough if they both end in the same destination   

I dunno, the one that is documented as being founded on certain ideals might be pushed towards those ideals again if the soul of those ideals is still strong...

The pessimist in me responds to that with "Yeah, we're screwed if it's the US government being talked about."

The optimist in me says "Well, there are a lot of patriotic people who could get the movement going again..."

And then the engineer in me says I should probably have a glass of water that will at one point be twice as big as I need it to be given the water in it at the time.

[dna1]

I actually don't care that they are listening to my phone convo's or watching my internet shit etc.

For me, it's just the fact that they shouldn't be.

The government is using fear as a reason to pass a bunch of bullshit. That's where I have a problem.

It started with putting up cameras everywhere, which they did a long time ago. They say its for protection.... there was like 2000 cameras at the boston marathon, both civilian and city mounted, and the police, and national guard were there.

All the cameras, and information gathering, which they have been doing for years. Didn't do shit to help.

Now they want to do more, for "protection". What next?

If you think that things aren't getting a bit out of hand. Go actually take a look at what is legal and isn't anymore. Freedom of speech is practically gone.
Go look up that kid who got arrested for threatening the white house via a home made rap song on facebook. They threw him in jail for 3 weeks before the public outcry was enough for him to be released.

Go check out how if you live within 100 miles of the coast you are now in a de-constitutional zone.

At any time the government can call you a terrorist and take everything you own. Throw you in jail without trial as long as they want, and they answer to nobody.

All this in the name of safety!....


I could go on and on for days about this and why its wrong. But everyone is entitled to there own opinions so I will spare you. 


sidenote:

(click to show/hide)

Anyone seen those new department of homeland security police driving around?  I live in portland oregon, and I'v seen two recently. Never saw any here until this year.
They look like a police SUV but with abuncha homeland security stuff instead. Also there has been a bunch of military driving around on the highways here.
Don't worry about the fact that according to the constitution we aren't supposed to be seeing this stuff in our citys, outside of military zones. Its for safety!

[X-Codes]

I love how, in your mind, there is no distinction between "they watch the general flow of data", and "policemen going around arresting you if you do not praise the great leader enough."

It's not just watching the general flow of data that's going on.  It's a government body deciding whether or not you're guilty based on who you associate with, combined with some distressing laws that, while they are certainly untested and probably in no way would stand up in a courtroom if put to a test, give the Government some really ugly authority simply based on whether or not a Government body decides whether or not you're guilty.

Don't watch TV either; the companies that give you that service aggregate your watching habits.

Aggregate information is fine to sell, in my opinion. That's how you make real money off advertisements. The level of detail in information being recorded these days, however, is unsettling, as is the capability of certain companies to track you even though you don't use their services.

Also, as dna has said, there really is no justification for any of this. We've been scared of terrorists since 9/11, when in reality the reason 9/11 wasn't stopped by law enforcement was because of mundane crap like intra- and inter-department communication and non-functional government bureaucracy.  Instead of just improving on that and making Government better, we've got Microsoft putting shit into Skype that lets the NSA track information through that service.

Finally, it's my default position to assume that the things I see my Government doing are the best things my Government does, and I'm seeing the Government do some pretty shitty things.

[dman11235]

So you don't mind that corporations are pulling private information from you, but you do mind that the government is (even though it's not).

[Jackinthegreen]

So you don't mind that corporations are pulling private information from you, but you do mind that the government is (even though it's not).

What specifically is being defined as "private" information?  And both of you should probably define it for yourselves since a disagreement on that specific item is likely one of the issues here.

[dman11235]

I'll pick on Facebook for a bit, since they're some of the worst about this.

Facebook owns your posts.  They own what you put on there (but take no responsibility for what you put there).  This means that, even if you have the privacy setting at "no one can see this", FB can use that data to learn about you.  They look at the content of what you put on their site.  They read what you write to other people, even if you think it's a private message.  They then use this information as they see fit, they can sell it, read it, do whatever they want with it, yes, even single you out for persecution if they felt like it.  The NSA isn't looking at content, only metadata.  They look at who makes the call, who receives it, when it's made, that sort of thing.  They don't look at what is inside the call.  Yet somehow that's worse than someone reading the content of your message and actually using it to target you with ads and stuff.  The government's scary?  No, the government is inept.  Corporations are scary.

EDIT: Here's the thing I tend to see from this conversation that really bugs me.  People are immediately assuming the government is here to be evil.  Not helpful but corrupt, just that it exists to be evil.  No matter what it does, it's evil.  Always.  Corporations?  They're out for a profit, who cares what they do, they aren't trying to hurt us, they just want money.  But people who think like this forget what corporations are doing on a daily basis.  Apple was taken to court for artificially inflating ebook reader prices.  Goldman Sachs (or was it someone else?) is (legally) artificially inflating aluminum prices by insider trading (they own the aluminum warehouses, and force delays on the delivery, while betting on the aluminum futures).  The government is supposed to have its people's best interests in mind, corporations are supposed to have the bottom line in mind.  Only one of those will not screw you over if it means making a quick buck.  Now, you can get into another argument about corruption and stuff in government, but the point is, why are people more afraid of the governemnt than the corporations doing worse things?

[Jackinthegreen]

Well, it does seem like "government intelligence" is an oxymoron while "corporate intelligence" is much less so, if at all.

[bhu]

Keep in mind that governments are generally elected by the most easily manipulated majority of the population, so you may have a tendency to get fools.  Who will appoint other fools to positions that will strengthen their own or allow corruption to take hold..

Corporations aren't popularity contests in the same sense elections are.  If you want a position there's a much smaller group of people you have to lie to or suck up to, and they're used to having people bullshit them in an attempt to climb the ladder.  While this may possibly result in less foolishness, it does not mean that corporate officers are immune to prejudices, emotional failings, or blatant stupidity.  There are plenty of examples of self destructive behavior ruining companies.

[dman11235]

but the things that make corporations most successful are when they screw over other people.  The things that make governments successful is when their constituents are happy.  Governments are not corporations, and should not be viewed as such.   Politicians are successful when the richest constituents are happy and the masses are reasonable.  Governments are not politicians, there's a big difference.

[bhu]

but the things that make corporations most successful are when they screw over other people.  The things that make governments successful is when their constituents are happy.  Governments are not corporations, and should not be viewed as such.   Politicians are successful when the richest constituents are happy and the masses are reasonable.  Governments are not politicians, there's a big difference.

China does nothing but fuck it's own people and they're remarkably successful despite the unhappiness of their populace.  You don't have to make constituents happy, you just have to convince them you're morally superior, and that the options they have other than you are even worse, or somehow unethical.  Governments aren't at their best when people are happy, governments are at their best when people are pissing themselves in fear.  They get to pretty much do what they want when that happens.  Even if they don't screw over their own people they most definitely screw over someone else far enough away that their constituency doesn't give a fuck.  Corporations and government may work in different ways but the end result is the same: a small group of morally bankrupt people work their way to the top and use their position to impose their will on those around them.  They may use different means to achieve the ends, but the ends are the same. 

[Sinfire Titan]

Keep it civil people.

The last thing we need is the NSA or Chinese government shutting us down and filing a lawsuit against the Gameologists...

[X-Codes]

The thing about Facebook is that the only information they have is the information I give them.  The only information I give them that isn't public knowledge is my birth date.  In any case, Facebook isn't exactly a private thing.  I wouldn't say it's quite as public as a forum like this place, but you could probably find, say, a table at a not-terribly-shady bar that's not as public as Facebook.  Google is a company that's a bit more worrisome, but again I'm moving away from them.  As soon as the DuckDuckGo addon for Opera 15 is finished, I'm going to go full hipster and dump Firefox and Google search in one swoop.

[dman11235]

The thing about Facebook is that the only information they have is the information I give them.  The only information I give them that isn't public knowledge is my birth date.  In any case, Facebook isn't exactly a private thing.  I wouldn't say it's quite as public as a forum like this place, but you could probably find, say, a table at a not-terribly-shady bar that's not as public as Facebook.  Google is a company that's a bit more worrisome, but again I'm moving away from them.  As soon as the DuckDuckGo addon for Opera 15 is finished, I'm going to go full hipster and dump Firefox and Google search in one swoop.

That argument works for anyone spying on you.  So how does that make corporation spying better than government spying?  And you really think DuckDuckGo is going to be any better  than Google?  I can guarantee you that it won't be if it becomes as big as Google is now.  Unless something changes about the corporate landscape between now and then.

@bhu: my point was that the government's primary goal is not the same as a corporations, so it is unfair to treat a government as a corporation.  I was ignoring corruption that you're speaking of because that just moves the goalposts.  If a government is actually doing what it's supposed to do (which I do believe a good bit of the US government is doing, most of this on a more local level than federal) then it's not screwing people over but helping the citizens.  A corporation, even one whose stated goal is helping people, is primarily focused on making money and will screw people over even if they are helping them.  Because that's how capitalism works.

[X-Codes]

That argument works for anyone spying on you.  So how does that make corporation spying better than government spying?  And you really think DuckDuckGo is going to be any better  than Google?  I can guarantee you that it won't be if it becomes as big as Google is now.  Unless something changes about the corporate landscape between now and then.

https://duckduckgo.com/privacy

The fact is, so long as there is enough demand for this level of privacy in searches, then there will be a company that provides the service.  They can still advertise, get commissions from retail sites, etc., so there is still money to be made even if they're not mining and collecting data.

As for the previous part, "they have what you give them" does not work for what the NSA is doing.  The NSA is accessing data about my phone usage without me having any say about it.  Yes, I can choose to not use my phone, but that's not a practical choice.  What's more, it's legally understood that phone calls are private, hence why you used to need a warrant in order to tap a phone and listen in on the conversation.  Furthermore, this data is enough for the NSA to brand you as a suspicious person, possibly a criminal or terrorist, and suddenly you get pulled out of line at airport security or your phone actually gets tapped instead of just having the metadata farmed.  All because of random numbers that really don't mean shit.

As much as I'm sure some of them would like to, corporations just aren't capable of anything even approaching that level of bullshit.

[dman11235]

Corporations ARE doing that!  That's the entire reason you're changing search engines!  And corporations are doing it in a different way, sure, but they are still doing it.  And I can guarantee you that if that site gets as big as Google, they will have the same issues as Google.  Heck, I'll bet that the only way they GET as big as Google is by doing what Google's doing.  Would it be nice if this was not the case?  Yes, definitely.  that's just not how capitalism works.  We can work on the government though.  Just don't get angrier at the government doing lighter stuff than corporations.  Corporations: exploitation for profit.  Government: exploitation for safety.  Still not good, but there's no reason to be angry at the safety and not the profit.

[altpersona]

i switched my default browser to duck a few days ago.

its searches are fine, its basically just bastardizing google and bing, but its missing the extras that i liked from google. if i want a pic or some such i still gotta manually go to google images..

otherwise, its working well or well enough at least.

[dman11235]

And here's a relevant article to this discussion....  Not a 100% conviction of the NSA, but it's leaning towards that "something else coming up" I referred to in my first post.  Looks like they are cataloging content from people who have been deemed an interest.

[X-Codes]

I really don't know what you're arguing right now.