Am I an asshole? Seriously?

[Kuroimaken]

Because sometimes I feel like that's all people see me as.

A little background on this.

I have recently gotten into a big argument with a Facebook friend. It was about feminism. More especifically, gay/straight pride. I won't get into particulars, but basically my line of argument was that there's nothing to be proud ABOUT, or rather, shouldn't you have like a dozen things to be proud of before your sexuality even factors into it?

More recently, I posted this picture.

http://hugelol.com/lol/215388

Which was meant to be, at best, sarcastic.

Now here's the thing: I see chivalry as a way of life. A way of life that includes being kind to men AND women alike. Which includes being nice without wanting reward. Which means being a good person, generally, not out of duty, but because one believes it's the right thing to do.

Yet like so many things before it, chivalry has been branded DAH EBULZ by such things as the feminist movement. The mere mention of it as a good thing is apparently grounds for becoming a social pariah. Anything that remotely resembles an alternative to feminist discourse, or at least in the way it's presented, is sexist and therefore evil.

Here's a line from that Facebook friend I mentioned:

"I'm not obligated to tolerate you or anybody I don't want to."

The corollary to that thought being that so is nobody else. Nobody has the obligation of tolerating anybody else. It's meant to be the most basic of common courtesy: as long as what you do doesn't interfere with me in any negative, harassing or annoying fashion, then I have no business interfering with you. Provided, of course, that said interference is not meant to prevent actual harm to you (like by keeping you from shooting yourself or getting run over by a car. And even then one is not obligated to interfere).

I believe that there's no such thing as absolutely evil thought. Similarly, not EVERYTHING that's awful has no good fruit: the same technology that gave us the atom bomb has given us nuclear energy, which while not by any means the cleanest or safest source of energy, it's certainly the only alternative for certain countries that can't exploit naturally occurring phenomena for the same purpose. Similarly, the fact that chivalry arguably arose from a time when sexism was rampant does not make it the spawn of the Devil assfucking Baby Cthulhu.

Everyone seems to DEMAND respect for who they are, while at the same time condemning and belittling everyone that is NOT them for the very same reason - in other words, acting like the EXACT KIND OF BIGOTS THEY RISE AGAINST. I can't believe I'm the only one who thinks this is the case.

I'm sick and tired of being seen as some kind of dumping ground for everyone's social indignation because I don't belong to a "minority". Because I'm "wrong". Because I'm an "asshole", or "the guy who always has to be right".

It's like high school all over again.

[Raineh Daze]

1) Pride as opposed to shame. Yeah, there's a bunch of other stuff to be proud about--but it's not as if there's years of societal and moral  pressure telling you that you should keep it all under wraps and feel bad about it. Reactionary, really.

2) Chivalry in a modern setting is distinct from the chivalric code (which is hardly a 100% good thing, itself) or courtly romances and using it by name like that will make people think of condescending men-protect-women stuff. Better to just refer to being nice as being nice without using loaded terminology.

3) When someone wants tolerance but doesn't want to be tolerant themselves, give up. Hypocrisy of that calibre is just not worth dealing with.

4) Well, I don't think you're an asshole, and I'd rather hit the person you're arguing with, and I seem to be in a bunch of socially notable minorities, so, uh... yay?

[Dkonen]

Posting that pic probably wasn't your best idea.

I don't mind if men want to be chivalrous, I find it oddly charming, but looking at that was enough to immediately get my back up, even though I'm not who it's targetted at.

It's not a question of asshole, it's a question of generalized aggression implicit in the message. It's bound to provoke a hostile reaction.

And-to give perhaps a bit of a perspective (while it may not apply to you per se)- "Nice guys" pull this kind of shit all the time. This is picture perfect for a "nice guy" post. "Nice guys" are probably the biggest threat to women out there. No I'm not kidding.

"Nice guys" are the ones who use passive aggressiveness to break women until they're vulnerable. "Nice guys" offer help, and despite the protest of "no strings attached" at the time, make sure to make themselves heard when the bill comes due. "Nice guys" seem so pleasant until they're sticking a knife in your back or putting hands (or other things) where they shouldn't and then bitching you out for taking advantage.  The list goes on, but "nice guys" are actually pretty damned horrific. I'd take an obvious douche-bro any day over a self titled "nice guy" any day. At least then I know to keep a taser handy. Nice guys ambush you when they've finally got you boxed into a corner (often literally)

So, I totally understand the freak out. Pictures like this scream "Nice guy". It's actually kind of scary. It demands women accept a behaviour and not feel threatened, since you're "being nice". A la "nice guy" "hey, what's the matter, hon, I'm just trying to be nice....." "Oh sweetie, don't get mad, I'm just tryin' to help...." It's really really creepy and frightening and threatening.

I can't begin to explain what it's like for a woman growing up, but there is a rational reason for this, and it's all too often backed up by real life evidence (in abundance).

No, noone has the right to bitch at you for holding a door open, but sharing an umbrella? That's a little too close. I'd get twitchy if a strange guy got that close to me, and then told me I shouldn't be upset about him being nice. It's not about being nice. It's about "I don't know you, you're strange, you're male, and you're aggressively entering my personal space." I tend to get tense whenever a guy I don't know gets closer than a foot to me in a non crowded space. Being within arm's reach can be pretty threatening, depending on the male and how they approach. It feels like intent to harm. Like they're trying to get close enough to grab me. Most women I know will react a similar way.

So yeah posting that picture, it's like telling me to suck it up and deal with it. To accept invasions of personal space and the risks that go with it, or be seen as a bitch. To add into the mix, if I do let someone open a door, hold an umbrella or help me out, I can be seen as "asking for it".

Being a woman has a lot of damned if you do/damned if you don't stuff. Chivalry is one of those, unfortunately. If we let you, we're teases and sluts, if we don't we're snotty bitches. Yeah welcome to this side of the fence. It sucks.

I don't think you're an asshole, perhaps a bit impulsive and ignorant, but not an asshole. That being said, had I seen it on someone's feed taht I didn't know well... yeah I'd assume they were being an ass and whining about being a "nice guy" and not getting what he wanted (re: felt entitled to) from a woman (who should have given it up anyways-since he's so "nice").

Fucked up world we live in.

[Libertad]

I don't really use Facebook or social networks, so I may not know all the etiquette, but by "Facebook friend" do you mean "friend who you talk with on Facebook" or "friend you really only know through Facebook?"

If the friend is someone you meet with in meatspace, you might want to try reconciling what occurred through a medium other than Facebook.  Face-to-face communication carries with it a lot of stuff, and people tend to react better and more understanding when they can see what you're going through in person.

 Did you use that image as a reaction to one of his/her posts, or was it just posted in isolation?  Because as a response they might interpret it as you calling them a "bitch," even if you didn't mean to.  In that case you should apologize for sending that message, because that's how it'd come off if I were them.

Regardless, try reconciling with them.  Maybe you or they had a bad day, and try explaining your point of view to them.  Don't demand them to agree with you, or vice versa, just explain that you want to get this off your chest and where you're coming from.

Now, that line "I'm not obligated to tolerate you or anybody I don't want to" might be a sign that they just want to break off ties with you, because that's what it sounds like to me.

It might not be a good idea to immediately respond if the incident is very recent.  You don't want to engage/reconcile when they're in a bad mood, but you don't want to come off as pestering.  Try waiting 24 hours and sending a message then.  And wait to see if they'll respond.

That's my advice, at least.

[Kuroimaken]

1) Well, I'm not saying keep it under wraps. But, really, pride is kind of a silly thing to have in the first place. I have yet to find one good use for it. One's sense of self-worth should hardly be based on such a thing, anyway.

2) Yeah, that actually hits another personal peeve of mine. "You can't use that word!" Really? I thought a vast majority of people agreed that freedom of speech was a good thing. And I'm using it responsibly, too.

3) I suppose you're probably right. Shame though. Friends are hard enough to come by as it is.

4) If it makes any difference, I never really considered you in terms of whatever minorities you happen to be in. Heck, I don't think that's how I see any of my friends, even. Isn't that kinda one of the points?

[bhu]

Were all assholes at some point, unintentionally or not.  I wouldn't worry about it if I were you, or it'll drive you nuts

[Raineh Daze]

I'm not saying 'can't', I'm saying 'shouldn't'.

Though I have got to be the single worst person to listen to. I'm still not really sure I've ever had proper friends, and I think I've been to more funerals than parties, and definitely went to more of the first lot before I was four. XD

[Libertad]

Were all assholes at some point, unintentionally or not.  I wouldn't worry about it if I were you, or it'll drive you nuts

That might be true in some cases, but it wouldn't be good if Kuroimaken lost a friendship over it.  Unless said friend already made up their mind and went "fuck it, I'm out," I think we should focus on helping him find a way to mend things.

[bhu]

Politics and religion have a way of making friendships irreconcilable.  My point wasn't that he should cut the guy loose and not try to reconcile, my point was that if it turns out that reconciliation isn't possible, not to let it eat at him like a cancer.  Sometimes people are more focused on 'winning' than being friends, or even being right.  If Kuro's friend is locked in that mode there's nothing to do until he/she calms down and lets go.  He may just need to be patient.

[Dkonen]

Also finding out why it's such a touchy issue may be part of reconciling. Then again, I'm big fan of "why", so I may be biased. 

[Raineh Daze]

Politics and religion have a way of making friendships irreconcilable.  My point wasn't that he should cut the guy loose and not try to reconcile, my point was that if it turns out that reconciliation isn't possible, not to let it eat at him like a cancer.  Sometimes people are more focused on 'winning' than being friends, or even being right.  If Kuro's friend is locked in that mode there's nothing to do until he/she calms down and lets go.  He may just need to be patient.

DISCLAIMER: I have never met anyone more pessimistic in this regard than Bhu.

[Dkonen]

DISCLAIMER: I will win! I will win by being the best damned person I can. I will out understand, empathize and help out everyone!!! Hah I win!!!

(just injecting a bit of humour in an otherwise depressing topic-lords and ladies know I need a haha-and I bet some others do too, possibly including Kuro. )

[Kuroimaken]

Were all assholes at some point, unintentionally or not.  I wouldn't worry about it if I were you, or it'll drive you nuts

Thing is, I make a conscious effort to try and be a positive force in the world, you know? Like in the sense that, at the very least, I don't actively fuck shit up for the lulz.

I'm not saying 'can't', I'm saying 'shouldn't'.

Though I have got to be the single worst person to listen to. I'm still not really sure I've ever had proper friends, and I think I've been to more funerals than parties, and definitely went to more of the first lot before I was four. XD

No such thing as someone with no experience to impart. Even bad advice is good for you if you can tell the difference.

@Libertad:

The person who responded to that image and the person I had a fight with were actually two different people. Both of them I know in meatspace in some capacity.

@Dkonen: Look, it's not like I don't understand where you're coming from. I would like to think I have at least SOME idea. Still, there's a WORLD of difference between "Thank you, but no" and "get the fuck out of my face you white male pig". The first one is a perfectly acceptable hint. The second one is a knee-jerk reaction, which may actually end up hurting someone who was genuinely trying to help.

On numerous occasions, I have volunteered to help people who had their hands full, or helped silence crying children. I did it out of a sense of kindness and out of a sense of "that person's day could get better if I pitch in for a second". Sometimes I didn't get so much as a thank you, but I did what I could to try and help.

It's very likely none of those people even remember me.

And yet I'd like to think my actions were for the best.

Every now and then, however, I meet someone who feels they have the right, no, the DUTY to treat me as their personal spittoon based on a difference of opinion. And having actually experienced the "ungrateful bitch" on at least one occasion, I kind of identified with the picture. Not in the sense that I'm a "nice guy" like the ones you mentioned. But in the sense that I feel chivalry has been demonized out of association with something that everyone goes on and on about how bad it is.

[Dkonen]

Usually if someone's an ass, there's a reason like, say, you posting this because you were angry and fed up about other situations, if someone's freaking about it, maybe they have a valid reason just as much as you did.

If it's a friend, tell them why you posted it (that you were frustrated and bitter), open a dialog and see where it goes.

Everyone's got a story somewhere, and everyone's got their reasons.

(not saying you specifically were an ass-but perhaps a less aggressive approach-like not involving "bitch" would have been better )

[Raineh Daze]

Trying to disentangle advice from rambling and good from bad with me is more trouble than it's worth. I have barely any experience with anything.

[Kuroimaken]

Trying to disentangle advice from rambling and good from bad with me is more trouble than it's worth. I have barely any experience with anything.

I WILL TAKE GOOD EXPERIENCE FROM YOUR BAD ADVICE AND I WILL LIKE IT.

Usually if someone's an ass, there's a reason like, say, you posting this because you were angry and fed up about other situations, if someone's freaking about it, maybe they have a valid reason just as much as you did.

If it's a friend, tell them why you posted it (that you were frustrated and bitter), open a dialog and see where it goes.

Everyone's got a story somewhere, and everyone's got their reasons.

(not saying you specifically were an ass-but perhaps a less aggressive approach-like not involving "bitch" would have been better )

Yeah - and normally I'd be perfectly willing to listen to that reason, and be nice and comprehensive about it, except that when people start piling up on you for seemingly unrelated reasons, you start to kind of lose patience for it.

I also get upset over the notion that people want me to listen, but not speak, ever, unless it is to agree with them.

[Dkonen]

(insert overshare brought on by frustration and shock-the info was given shortly before)

Is it really worth the grudge?

Edit: because I don't need to leave it here. But thanks Kuro for the kind words.

[Kuroimaken]

I am terribly sorry to hear that, Dkonen.

I really am.

[Kuroimaken]

As usual, SorO, your eloquence is only matched by the corrosiveness of your words.

[Dkonen]

I apologize but I get so tired of people getting so pissed at each other.

You only have so much time, and people say things and do things they don't mean.

Eventually we're all gone. Does it really matter so much that they yelled at you? Make up while you can.

And Soro-

Do kindly fuck off, I'm not up to your acidic vitriol right now.