Author Topic: Template Handbook Discussion  (Read 27349 times)

Offline bhu

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Template Handbook Discussion
« on: January 04, 2014, 02:13:03 AM »
First item up for discussion: There are two templates from web enhancements that no longer appear to be available (Chosen of Deneir and Jordain-Born).  Are they worth tracking down and if so does anyone know where they are?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12219.0 Handbook is here
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 03:56:38 AM by bhu »

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2014, 10:18:52 AM »
How detailed do you plan on making this guide, eventually? You already have a TON of reference material here and a lot of work was represented... but are you going to, say, add the LAs for playable ones? Highlight particularly good ones? Any other information?

Either way, it's going to be a huge project

Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2014, 11:46:26 AM »
Are you including the various 2nd party books? Athas, Planescape, Dragonlance, that sort of thing?

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2014, 02:48:46 PM »
First item up for discussion: There are two templates from web enhancements that no longer appear to be available (Chosen of Deneir and Jordain-Born).  Are they worth tracking down and if so does anyone know where they are?

I've tracked down both templates. They are on ww2.wizards.com, which can be found with Google but is labelled as "untrusted" because WotC doesn't have certificates for them.

They can be found here and here. Google has a cache of them, too: Chosen of Deneir and Jordain-Born.

Offline bhu

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2014, 03:50:32 PM »
How detailed do you plan on making this guide, eventually? You already have a TON of reference material here and a lot of work was represented... but are you going to, say, add the LAs for playable ones? Highlight particularly good ones? Any other information?

Either way, it's going to be a huge project

One of the other purposes of this thread is to see what people want in a template handbook after i get the master lists done  :D

I definitely intend to have templates listed by Type change (as in I'm an x and I wish to become an x), addition or loss of subtypes, changes in CR/LA, plus whatever people want most.

Offline bhu

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2014, 03:52:13 PM »
Are you including the various 2nd party books? Athas, Planescape, Dragonlance, that sort of thing?

Depends on whether or not I can gain access to them and if people want them.  Hesitantly I'd like to say yes but I need to find a list of the books out there so I can do research.

SO if people want them do please sound off now  :D

Offline bhu

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2014, 03:52:59 PM »
First item up for discussion: There are two templates from web enhancements that no longer appear to be available (Chosen of Deneir and Jordain-Born).  Are they worth tracking down and if so does anyone know where they are?

I've tracked down both templates. They are on ww2.wizards.com, which can be found with Google but is labelled as "untrusted" because WotC doesn't have certificates for them.

They can be found here and here. Google has a cache of them, too: Chosen of Deneir and Jordain-Born.


 :hug

I shall list them then.  I didn't before because of the untrusted thing.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2014, 08:29:27 PM »
I think the info you proposed on the previous thread was pretty good. So a possible table (or set of tables, if necessary) could look something like this:

TemplateSourceOld TypeNew TypeSubtypeLACRSizeStat ChangesGrants SLAsOther Prereqs
DuhDuhType prereqWhat you becomeGained, if anyDuhDuhChange, if anyIf anyY/NIf any

And it would be sortable, so you could sort by New Type, or by LA, or whatever. How does that look?

Offline bhu

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2014, 09:12:48 PM »
Is the proposed table enough or are there additional bits of info people would like to see?

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2014, 09:29:19 PM »
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".

I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2014, 09:41:36 PM »
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".

I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.
It's easy enough to do the usual 4 color scheme (red/black/blue/green) to denote terrible/blah/good/broken. Though you wouldn't be able to sort on that.

Offline snakeman830

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2014, 11:18:28 PM »
That tier list didn't get that far, but I do feel something similar should be implemented in the handbook.
"When life gives you lemons, fire them back at high velocity."

Offline bhu

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2014, 11:26:57 PM »
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".

I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.
It's easy enough to do the usual 4 color scheme (red/black/blue/green) to denote terrible/blah/good/broken. Though you wouldn't be able to sort on that.

Maybe if we did a table for each color?

Also: If I'm making suggestions for taking PC templates wouldn't I need to do it by class? 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 11:32:58 PM by bhu »

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2014, 11:41:30 PM »
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".

I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.
It's easy enough to do the usual 4 color scheme (red/black/blue/green) to denote terrible/blah/good/broken. Though you wouldn't be able to sort on that.

Maybe if we did a table for each color?

Also: If I'm making suggestions for taking PC templates wouldn't I need to do it by class?

Yeeeah, maybe leave the stratification out of the table, and just do a set of posts that have lists of templates that mesh well with the core+ base classes. "If you're a Barbarian, think about these," "If you're a Rogue, think about these," "If you're a Wizard, think about these."

And maybe even a list of "NEVER USE THESE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!" :P

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2014, 11:46:32 PM »
Also: If I'm making suggestions for taking PC templates wouldn't I need to do it by class?

I don't think that would be necessary. Usually it is pretty obvious what kind of class a template synergies with, especially if it gives ability score modifiers. Maybe a single line that goes something like "Suggested class: Warlock" (for example). Subdividing it by class would just make it more confusing. A lot of templates work well with more than one class, and some of the class handbooks include a template section anyway.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2014, 12:22:48 AM »
Maybe a single line that goes something like "Suggested class: Warlock" (for example).
That doesn't really solve the problem of stratification.

Offline Gazzien

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 03:09:14 AM »
Your Abomination Dragonspawn, in the parenthetical, says "Draonspawn". //nitpick

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2014, 11:20:59 AM »
The problem with rating templates is that some will be better than others for various things, and it is VERY difficult to denote these things without tripling the size of the table. Bare minimum would require three columns with a 1-5 rating in each: one for Melee, Caster, and Skilled.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2014, 12:21:17 PM »
The problem with rating templates is that some will be better than others for various things, and it is VERY difficult to denote these things without tripling the size of the table. Bare minimum would require three columns with a 1-5 rating in each: one for Melee, Caster, and Skilled.

Not necessarily. You could just rate it by how useful it is for builds that use it well. Just look at the tier lists for classes as an example: Warblade is not an effective Skilled character or Caster, but it is still a solid tier 3 class. You don't need a Tier List for Melee Combatants, Tier List for Casters and Tier List for Skilled Characters because it is clear at a glance what kind of character a certain class is. I think templates are the same in this respect. A 1-5 rating in three columns would still be better since it gives more information when looking at the chart (allowing people who are looking for a certain kind of template to narrow it down sooner) but it isn't the bare minimum for tier info to be useful.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Template Handbook Discussion
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2014, 12:58:11 PM »
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

TemplateSourceOld TypeNew TypeSubtypeLACRSizeStat ChangesSLAs?ALOther PrereqsOther
Abomination DragonspawnBoK p26H, MHMH(as creator)+10--4 Int, -4 Wis--Dragonspawn TemplateRoll for Mutation Benefits
Acidborn MonsterDung p111An, MB, P, V-/MB(augmented)-+1-+4 Con--Living, corporeal, [aquatic]
Air Element CreatureMoP p191Ab, An, MB, P, VEAir-Var-+6 Dex-Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material
Anarchic CreatureMoP p198Special-Chaotic-Var---Always CCorporeal, native to the Material plane3.0 Material
Ankholian UndeadBoK p121U--+3+2-+4 Str/Cha-Any ECorporeal
Axiomatic CreatureMoP p197Special-Lawful-Var---Always LCorporeal, native to the Material plane3.0 Material
BloodragerBoK p78An, MB, VMB-+2Var-+4 Str/Con, -2 Wis-Always E-
Child of the SeaBoK p40HFAquatic+2+1-+2 Con, -2 ChaY-Non-aquatic
Cold Element CreatureMoP p195Ab, An, MB, P, VECold-Var---Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material
Dark Thrall of OnysabletBoK p80Special--+3+2-+2 Str/Dex/Con-Always CEMale human/elf/ogre
Death Knight of KrynnDCS p212HU-+5Var-+4 Str, +2 Wis/ChaYAlways E6+ HD
Dragon VassalBoK p29G, H, MHMH(elemental)+2+1-+8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con---
DragonspawnDCS p222H, MHMH(as creator)VarVar-Var--Corporeal, between small & largeCast as 1st level Sorcerer
Dungeonbred MonsterDung p112Ab, An, MB, V---0-1+4 Str/Con--Living, corporeal, large+
Earth Element CreatureMoP p192Ab, An, MB, P, VEEarth-Var-+2 Str, -2 Dex-Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material
Fire Element CreatureMoP p193Ab, An, MB, P, VEFire-Var---Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material
ForestmasterBoK p83MB, An--0+3-+2 Str/Con, +4 Int/Wis/ChaYAlways NIf animal, awakenedCast as a Druid of your HD
Guardian MonsterDung p113Ab, An, MB, V-/MB(augmented)-+1-+4 Wis, -2 Cha--Living, corporeal, Int 3-
Gurik Cha'ahlBoK p46Special--+1+1-+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha--Goblinoid Subtype
Half-ElementalMoP p188AnyOu--+2-VarY-Corporeal, Int 4+3.0 Material
Hivenest MonsterDung p115C, P, U, V---Var----Special
PetitionerMoP p199AnyOu--+1-----3.0 Material
Proto-CreatureBoK p89Ab, D, G, H, MB, MH, Oz, U--0Var+2/+1/0+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha-One step towards CCorporeal
Pseudonatural CreatureMoP p212AnyOu--Var----Corporeal3.0 Material
Sacred GuardianBoK p92C-Augmented, (aligned)0+2-+4 Str/Dex/Wis/Cha--Non-intelligent
Sea DragonspawnBoK p29H, MHMH(as creator)+2+2-+6 Str, +4 Con/Cha, +2 Wis--Corporeal, between small & largeCast as 1st level Sorcerer
Sentry OozeDung p114Oz---+2-+6 Dex, +2 Int, +1 Wis/Cha--Living, corporeal, no Int
Shadow CreatureMoP p190AnyMB--+1----Corporeal3.0 Material
Skeletal WarriorDCS p229HU--+1-+2 Str-Always NE3+ HD
SkorenoiBoK p96F, H, MHMHChaoticVarVar-+4 Str, +2 Dex/Con-Always CECorporeal, possess bestial traits
Spectral MinionDCS p230G, H, MHUIncorporeal-+1-+4 Dex---
Tainted-BloodBoK p98Ab, F, G, H, MHMH-+1Var-+2 Str, +4 Con-Always CE-
Water Element CreatureMoP p194Ab, An, MB, P, VEWater-Var---Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material
WichtlinBoK p132SpecialUAugmented+4+2-+4 Dex/Cha, -4 IntYAlways NEElf/Half-elf/Animal Companion
Wood Element CreatureMoP p196Ab, An, MB, VP--Var---Usually NCorporeal3.0 Material



How does this look?

EDIT: I think the SLAs stuff should come out, since it doesn't really tell you anything. This table should really be essential information only, and, IMO, just saying "this template gives you 1 or more SLAs, but you'll have to look to find out which and how many and how many times per day and at what caster level" is so generic as to be pretty much useless. I mean, what are you supposed to do with that information? And taking out that column will help a bit with the clutter.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 06:56:24 AM by FireInTheSky »