Author Topic: Arhosan Seedcasting Index & Discussion  (Read 73360 times)

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2016, 06:11:25 PM »
Metamorphosis Seeds
- If you target multiple creatures, you use multiple-target options, each target [has to have the same OR can have different] options chosen for the seed.
- When casting a Metamorphosis Seed, [the amount of spell points OR additional spell points] spent on the seed determines what creature types you can choose for purposes of abilities gained from the seed.

I'd say have to be the same, and the amount of spell points spent on the seed. Although we need to keep in the CR limiting text as well, which should be in here somewhere.

CR limiting text is in the Seeds themselves, although if it's the same for every seed it will get moved to the rules section.

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Seed Types

I'd do it this way:
Animal seed -> pay extra for Vermin, Plants, Magical Beasts. Nature only
Humanoid seed -> pay extra for Monstrous Humanoid, Giants. Arcane only
Fey Seed -> Arcane + Nature
Dragon -> Arcane + Nature
Elemental -> Nature only
Outsider -> Arcane only
Aberration -> Arcane only
No seed for Ooze, Undead, Construct

Obviously making the stand alone seeds more expensive to use, something along the lines of your table.

So you're in favor of stand alone seeds instead of one general seed?  I can work with that.

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Assume Natural Attack

I'd recommend dropping that "one die only" restriction everywhere in this seed. That means it's *always* worse than a manufactured weapon. And if you're wading into melee, that's what you'll use. Also need to note that for natural attacks boosted by INA, caster doesn't get the benefit and needs to adjust damage accordingly. Likewise, remove the "reduce the dice" section. And it's actually possible Swallow Whole is a valid special attack - being bigger than your opponent with a bite attack + swallow whole could be doable with other seeds involved.

I'm keeping the damage in line with the other damage dealing seeds.  More importantly, you're seeing this as instead of a manufactured weapon.  I see it more being used to gain a bite/tail slap/whatever in addition to a natural weapon. 

So you want to lose the one die only thing but keep scaling, correct?  Also, unless you want to write up some language about how swallow whole isn't allowed unless special circumstances it's easier to just say no (especially since I only came across one monster who explicitly mentioned the bite attack in the swallow whole language, most swallow whole monsters just talking about grappling to swallow).

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Assume Form:

Need to remove the size mentions, or rather, reword so no stat changes based on size, since it's inherent to the benefits from the creature's scores. Right now, you actually get more strength than the target creature grants.

I actually did reword, I just accidentally left the old language too.  You both get the stats and then also don't get anything at all.  You didn't read the whole paragraph. :P

Old language removed.


Other fixes will/won't be implemented once we're done talking about them.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2016, 06:28:53 PM »
School
A seed may indicate its school of magic. A spell is of the school and subschool of its seeds. If it has multiple seeds from multiple schools, it is a multi-school spell (PHB2) from each of them.

A seed that does not indicate its school does not alter a spell's school of magic (leaving it as a universal spell if no schools are applied by any of its seeds).

If we go ahead with spell schools, most of the seeds are going to need to have a school applied. I'm actually not sure what ones we have so far wouldn't have a school.

If they mostly all wind up having a school, just adjust the language. I haven't really paid much attention to what seeds we already have.

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The seed's saving throw. This indicates what type of save is allowed (if any) against the seed's effects. Spells with multiple effects or with effects not tied to specific seeds may allow multiple saving throws or have effects that apply regardless of the save against the seed's effects. A successful save that negates a seed only negates the spell as a whole if the seed is the spell's only effect.

We're going to need the example language to clarify this that was written up earlier in the thread. It's too unclear.

I'll work on better language. It should be made clearer once you get to the part about a spell's saving throw, but it's definitely mud up here.

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Spell Level
A spell's level is equal to 1/2 the spell's spell point cost (rounded down), to a maximum of 9th-level for a spell that costs 18 or more spell points. Thus, a spell with a cost of only 1 point is a 0-level spell, a spell that costs 2 or 3 points is 1st-level, one that costs 4 or 5 points is 2nd-level, and so on.

Why the change from normal operation? Where 1-2 is 1st, and so on? Seems odd to not line up with Psionics, existing Arhosan casting, and most other point based systems.

The only thing I changed was at 1 (letting it be 0th-level) and at 20+ (capping at 9th). Rounding down is D&D's default, I just added that for clarification to make it extra clear. If you want, just change it to rounding up and to max of 9th at 17+ SP.

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Spells with Multiple Seeds
A single spell can make use of multiple seeds (although always at least one). It can even have the same seed applied multiple times for different effects (each instance of the seed counting against the maximum value of spell seeds, and potentially having a different spell point value assigned to it). Each seed produces its effects as part of the spell. If order is important, the spellcaster can determine the order when creating the spell.

Spell seeds that require the same type of saving throw and that would be made at essentially the same time combine to use a single save. A subject making saves against a spell with multiple seeds makes no more than one saving throw for each of Fortitude, Reflex, and Will, each of which is used for the effects of all seeds in the spell applying at essentially the same time that require a saving throw of that type. Some special saving throws are always made independently of saves against other seeds' effects, however.

Allowing the same seed multiple times is just a disaster waiting to happen. And there's currently no seed where that would help, since they're designed to apply exactly one effect for each use. We really should strip the language out about allowing the same seed.

Lions, Tigers, and Bears, Oh My uses a summon seed twice, once for the emanation, once for the walls. Or just repeated use of summon seeds to summon multiple different creatures.

Cleansing Gesture repeatedly to remove multiple conditions at once. Whatever our resist energy seed is to resist more than one type of energy. Things like that. I expect there's be more in the future.

Regardless, going to change the language so it explicitly requires repeated use of a seed to produce a different effect, and if it's somehow the same it doesn't stack (only the strongest applies).

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Metamagic

Should specify that metamagic comes out of the spell seed side of the cost equation, not targeting/range/duration etc.

The intent is neither and both. You've got a spell you created. It does whatever it does with whatever range and whatever effects, and it has whatever cost. You apply a metamagic to it, and now you pay its cost plus the metamagic's cost.

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- Range tags for spell seeds can be dropped for the seeds that are just "any range", if you want.
- Duration tags for spell seeds can be dropped for the seeds that are just "anything except instantaneous", if you want.

Problem is "Unlimited" range for teleport, scrying, etc. That's why they're "any but". And right now there's no rules that disallow Instantaneous/Unlimited if we drop them from the seed.

Will add exclusion of unlimited as well if the tag is missing. The entry for duration tags on spell seeds I already posted says a missing tag is any except instantaneous.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2016, 08:53:29 PM »
Take 2.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 02:33:25 PM by Garryl »

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #83 on: July 14, 2016, 02:01:24 PM »
CR limiting text is in the Seeds themselves, although if it's the same for every seed it will get moved to the rules section.

I'd have it the same for all of them.

So you're in favor of stand alone seeds instead of one general seed?

Yes, allows us to keep a handle on balance better.

I'm keeping the damage in line with the other damage dealing seeds.  More importantly, you're seeing this as instead of a manufactured weapon.  I see it more being used to gain a bite/tail slap/whatever in addition to a natural weapon. So you want to lose the one die only thing but keep scaling, correct?

Like so (assuming CR text is generalized):

Seed Effect: For one spell point, the target chooses a non-templated animal and gains a single natural attack possessed by that animal. Anything listed as an attack that does not have a damage entry and instead has an effect that is not damage can not be chosen.
Extra Effect: For an extra two spell points, choose another natural attack from the same animal. For a further extra two spell points, gain a single Ex special attack possessed by the chosen animal that is associated with the assumed natural attack(s). Abilities like Constrict, Trample, and Pounce that are not explicitly associated with a natural attack cannot be gained through this seed. Due to the nature of the changes caused the seed, Swallow Whole is never a valid special attack. For an exra three points, instead choose an untemplated vermin instead of an animal.

Also, unless you want to write up some language about how swallow whole isn't allowed unless special circumstances it's easier to just say no (especially since I only came across one monster who explicitly mentioned the bite attack in the swallow whole language, most swallow whole monsters just talking about grappling to swallow).

Might as well leave it out.

If they mostly all wind up having a school, just adjust the language. I haven't really paid much attention to what seeds we already have.

I think they will, since I can't see any that don't have one, based on the old system.

The only thing I changed was at 1 (letting it be 0th-level) and at 20+ (capping at 9th). Rounding down is D&D's default, I just added that for clarification to make it extra clear. If you want, just change it to rounding up and to max of 9th at 17+ SP.

Think we might as well go ahead with the slight change.

Lions, Tigers, and Bears, Oh My uses a summon seed twice, once for the emanation, once for the walls. Or just repeated use of summon seeds to summon multiple different creatures.

Cleansing Gesture repeatedly to remove multiple conditions at once. Whatever our resist energy seed is to resist more than one type of energy. Things like that. I expect there's be more in the future.

Regardless, going to change the language so it explicitly requires repeated use of a seed to produce a different effect, and if it's somehow the same it doesn't stack (only the strongest applies).

Okay, that sounds like a good change.

The intent is neither and both. You've got a spell you created. It does whatever it does with whatever range and whatever effects, and it has whatever cost. You apply a metamagic to it, and now you pay its cost plus the metamagic's cost.

That doesn't work though. Because under that set-up you get a 3rd level caster spending 5 points on spell effects (6d6 fire damage (3 points) + empower (2 points)) for a spell he can't actually cast legally yet. That's why metamagic needs to be included as part of the spell effect cost.

Will add exclusion of unlimited as well if the tag is missing. The entry for duration tags on spell seeds I already posted says a missing tag is any except instantaneous.

Sounds good.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #84 on: July 14, 2016, 02:06:37 PM »
Oh, okay, I see where you're going.  We've got different concepts.

I was trying to have a natural attack that scales with points spent (something like Claws of the Beast but scaling to match the damage output of the pew-pew spells) where you can maybe grab a special ability.  You just want "dig through the MM, find appropriate CR creature, gain natural attack and maybe special ability".

I can work with that, I just wanted you to understand where I was coming from.

I'll get some write-ups after lunch (it's a little after noon here).

Offline Garryl

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #85 on: July 14, 2016, 02:13:29 PM »
The intent is neither and both. You've got a spell you created. It does whatever it does with whatever range and whatever effects, and it has whatever cost. You apply a metamagic to it, and now you pay its cost plus the metamagic's cost.

That doesn't work though. Because under that set-up you get a 3rd level caster spending 5 points on spell effects (6d6 fire damage (3 points) + empower (2 points)) for a spell he can't actually cast legally yet. That's why metamagic needs to be included as part of the spell effect cost.

Metamagic costs explicitly count against the maximum SP you can spend to cast a spell, unlike other modifiers.

Metamagic
Metamagic feats alter a spell's effects. They must be applied at the time of casting (for spontaneous spellcasters) or at the time of preparation or retrieval (for prepared and retrieved spellcasters), not when the spell is created.

Since Arhosan magic is more fluid than regular magic, it takes more easily to metamagic. Unlike with regular spells, metamagic applied at the time of casting to Arhosan spells does not inherently increase its casting time.

Metamagic usually alters the spell point cost to cast a spell. Unlike most other adjustments, metamagic's effects on a spell's cost apply when determining whether or not the spell costs more than the spellcaster's caster level, and thus whether or not she can cast it.

- If you're 3rd-level and have a Torc of Spell Power Preservation (-1 SP costs), you cast a 3 SP Fireblast and pay 2 SP, but you can't cast a 4 SP Doom Sphere, even though it would only cost you 3 SP.
- If you're 3rd-level and are in a Spell Disruption Field (+4 SP costs), you can cast a 3 SP Fireblast and pay 7 SP.
- If you're 3rd-level, you can apply Suplexing Spell (+2 SP metamagic) to the 1 SP Force Poke and cast it for 3 SP, but you can't apply it to your 3 SP Fireblast.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #86 on: July 14, 2016, 02:15:39 PM »
Saving Throw
The seed's saving throw. This indicates what type of save is allowed (if any) against the seed's effects. The effects of the saving throw only apply to the seed's effects, not to the spell as a whole nor to the effects of any other seeds the spell may use, even with abilities such as Evasion and Mettle.

Are we no longer stacking saves of the same type together?

School of Magic vs School

You've got Schools in there in two different sections. Descriptors too. Range and Targeting as well. And Duration.

Creating a Spell

Needs to mention casters get to select casting time as well.

Saving Throws

That's different from the current formula, which is uncapped (DC 10 + primary modifier + 1/2 the total number of spell points expended (Minimum +1 to the DC)). I personally prefer the uncapped variety.


Generally, I think we're close enough that at this point we need to plough through seeds, so that we have enough to test a functional character or two.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #87 on: July 14, 2016, 02:20:20 PM »
Oh, okay, I see where you're going.  We've got different concepts.

I was trying to have a natural attack that scales with points spent (something like Claws of the Beast but scaling to match the damage output of the pew-pew spells) where you can maybe grab a special ability.  You just want "dig through the MM, find appropriate CR creature, gain natural attack and maybe special ability".

I can work with that, I just wanted you to understand where I was coming from.

I'll get some write-ups after lunch (it's a little after noon here).

Ah, okay. I didn't realize you were going to have unlimited scaling. I thought it capped at the creature's actual natural attack. Although it still opens up King of Smack type builds, but natural attacks always do, so I'm not sure that's something we can solve too much.

Metamagic costs explicitly count against the maximum SP you can spend to cast a spell, unlike other modifiers.

- If you're 3rd-level and have a Torc of Spell Power Preservation (-1 SP costs), you cast a 3 SP Fireblast and pay 2 SP, but you can't cast a 4 SP Doom Sphere, even though it would only cost you 3 SP.
- If you're 3rd-level and are in a Spell Disruption Field (+4 SP costs), you can cast a 3 SP Fireblast and pay 7 SP.
- If you're 3rd-level, you can apply Suplexing Spell (+2 SP metamagic) to the 1 SP Force Poke and cast it for 3 SP, but you can't apply it to your 3 SP Fireblast.

Somehow, I missed that in the update. My fault.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #88 on: July 14, 2016, 02:31:42 PM »
Saving Throw
The seed's saving throw. This indicates what type of save is allowed (if any) against the seed's effects. The effects of the saving throw only apply to the seed's effects, not to the spell as a whole nor to the effects of any other seeds the spell may use, even with abilities such as Evasion and Mettle.

Are we no longer stacking saves of the same type together?

We are. Rolling saves together is in the spell section. That's where the grouping of like saves is discussed.

The part you quoted is from the seed section, discussing the individual seed's saving throw. A Reflex negates seed doesn't negate the entire spell if the Reflex save is successful, nor does it negate the remaining half of a Reflex half seed.

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School of Magic vs School

You've got Schools in there in two different sections. Descriptors too. Range and Targeting as well. And Duration.

Two versions for two sections for two different elements. One's for the individual seeds explaining how everything is described and giving a quick rundown of what they generally mean, one's for the spell as a whole that combines them all together and discusses in detail how that happens and what the end result it. Seed vs. spell.

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Creating a Spell

Needs to mention casters get to select casting time as well.

Two word fix. Not worth reposting for, I'll just edit it in above.

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Saving Throws

That's different from the current formula, which is uncapped (DC 10 + primary modifier + 1/2 the total number of spell points expended (Minimum +1 to the DC)). I personally prefer the uncapped variety.

I'd rather use the spell level. I keeps it consistent with other systems.

Using an uncapped formula only differs at really high levels (19+). At the start of it, there's a one point difference, and after that you're into epic levels where everything changes and things stop scaling the same, anyways.

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Generally, I think we're close enough that at this point we need to plough through seeds, so that we have enough to test a functional character or two.

May also need to adjust the classes a bit. Primarily with respect to spell seed acquisition (old seeds usually had three distinct effects, the new ones are one apiece, so the number known should increase). There are undoubtedly several class features that need to be altered, too. I'm not familiar with the Arhosan spellcasting classes at all, but I'll take a quick peek and see if anything obvious jumps out at me, at least for the primary spellcasters.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #89 on: July 14, 2016, 02:36:34 PM »
May also need to adjust the classes a bit. Primarily with respect to spell seed acquisition (old seeds usually had three distinct effects, the new ones are one apiece, so the number known should increase). There are undoubtedly several class features that need to be altered, too. I'm not familiar with the Arhosan spellcasting classes at all, but I'll take a quick peek and see if anything obvious jumps out at me, at least for the primary spellcasters.

The classes will need to be given a very thorough going over, as they'll need a different number of seeds, and some of their abilities will need to be adjusted. The biggest area of pain is that Fortes/Eras (same thing) will need a complete rebuild, since they usually count on having 2 or 3 abilities from the existing seeds to function. Might be able to get away with it by adjusting the number of seeds that qualify for them, though.

On another note, we (me, honestly) should probably go through the XPH and other sources of Psionic feats and create a list of ones that function for this system, since it's easier than recreating all of those feats.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #90 on: July 14, 2016, 03:13:09 PM »
May also need to adjust the classes a bit. Primarily with respect to spell seed acquisition (old seeds usually had three distinct effects, the new ones are one apiece, so the number known should increase). There are undoubtedly several class features that need to be altered, too. I'm not familiar with the Arhosan spellcasting classes at all, but I'll take a quick peek and see if anything obvious jumps out at me, at least for the primary spellcasters.

The classes will need to be given a very thorough going over, as they'll need a different number of seeds, and some of their abilities will need to be adjusted. The biggest area of pain is that Fortes/Eras (same thing) will need a complete rebuild, since they usually count on having 2 or 3 abilities from the existing seeds to function. Might be able to get away with it by adjusting the number of seeds that qualify for them, though.

The whole section of that needs a rewrite. It's written just for the Historian class, rather than the Arhosan spellcasting subsystem as a whole, which is an important thing to change up while you're redoing it. It's also needed some serious expanding for a while; with 5 Fortes learned over 20 levels, having 10 of them is barely enough. With the prerequisites they all have, you need a lot more, especially some without prerequisites at all, just to ensure that an Arcanist can actually take all 5 of them.

I'll try to save my discussion/analysis for later when we get to them.

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On another note, we (me, honestly) should probably go through the XPH and other sources of Psionic feats and create a list of ones that function for this system, since it's easier than recreating all of those feats.

Check out this stuff here. You might find some good ideas about spell/power conceptual translation there, too.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2016, 03:22:22 PM »
Oh, okay, I see where you're going.  We've got different concepts.

I was trying to have a natural attack that scales with points spent (something like Claws of the Beast but scaling to match the damage output of the pew-pew spells) where you can maybe grab a special ability.  You just want "dig through the MM, find appropriate CR creature, gain natural attack and maybe special ability".

I can work with that, I just wanted you to understand where I was coming from.

I'll get some write-ups after lunch (it's a little after noon here).

Ah, okay. I didn't realize you were going to have unlimited scaling. I thought it capped at the creature's actual natural attack. Although it still opens up King of Smack type builds, but natural attacks always do, so I'm not sure that's something we can solve too much.

I didn't specify and that's my fault.  It's probably better to just pick a monster's natural attack and gain it than grow something random and get extra dice.  Less abusable that way.




Also, lets finish with seeds before overhauling everything else. :p

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2016, 03:25:01 PM »
The whole section of that needs a rewrite. It's written just for the Historian class, rather than the Arhosan spellcasting subsystem as a whole, which is an important thing to change up while you're redoing it. It's also needed some serious expanding for a while; with 5 Fortes learned over 20 levels, having 10 of them is barely enough. With the prerequisites they all have, you need a lot more, especially some without prerequisites at all, just to ensure that an Arcanist can actually take all 5 of them.

I'll try to save my discussion/analysis for later when we get to them.

That's because all of Arhosa is just the Historian class with a swollen brain. Spellpoint casting, Fusillades, ancient martial feats, Eras/Fortes, etc. Took what I had and used it to try and rebalance D&D a little while creating my own setting. It's getting there. Slowly.

Check out this stuff here. You might find some good ideas about spell/power conceptual translation there, too.

Nice, someone did the work for me. I shall peruse the PDF.

I didn't specify and that's my fault.  It's probably better to just pick a monster's natural attack and gain it than grow something random and get extra dice.  Less abusable that way.

It'll also stop people just cherry-picking d12 natural attacks, which would be clearly better under the scaling dice system. So just need the natural attack seed, metamorphosis rules, and the metamorphosis seeds. That'll be that subsystem of magic sorted.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #93 on: July 14, 2016, 03:55:14 PM »
Some random ideas that might fit as seeds, fortes, metamagic, class features, or whatever, I dunno.
- When dispelled, spell ends 1 round later rather than immediately.
- After casting a spell, the next spell you cast within 1 round that uses all of the seeds involved and at least one more seed costs 1 SP less to cast.
- If a spell you cast has no effect as you cast it (no targets, everyone makes their save to negate/stopped by SR, etc.), regain 1/2 the SP spent to cast it.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #94 on: July 14, 2016, 04:32:52 PM »
Some random ideas that might fit as seeds, fortes, metamagic, class features, or whatever, I dunno.
- When dispelled, spell ends 1 round later rather than immediately.
- After casting a spell, the next spell you cast within 1 round that uses all of the seeds involved and at least one more seed costs 1 SP less to cast.
- If a spell you cast has no effect as you cast it (no targets, everyone makes their save to negate/stopped by SR, etc.), regain 1/2 the SP spent to cast it.

I shall keep these in mind (and I like them), but despite what immediately follows this sentence, we should probably focus on seeds. (I know, do as I say, not as I do :banghead).

Went through the list of Psionic feats on D&DTools. Surprisingly few that were good (once you removed those already converted).
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 05:22:12 PM by Stratovarius »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2016, 04:39:53 PM »
Metamorphosis Seeds (Version: I lost count)

(click to show/hide)

Nature's Gift has replaced Assume Natural Attack and has been given more options.

The [blank] Form Seeds can now grant all EX abilities at the extra five points effect (it goes with DR/Energy Resistance/SR).

I'm not 100% on the spell point costs for anything.



Edit: Strat, please reduce the text size in your spoiler.  I feel like you're yelling at me. :p

Offline Garryl

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2016, 04:58:05 PM »
Some suggestions for rewrites of some of the old feats to fit with the new system (plenty more needed, although they're mostly wording/format changes and things to do with fortes and other stuff we haven't gotten to yet):
- Blended Talents: You can combine all of your pools of spell points into a single pool that is the sum of their sizes. You can use spell points from this pool to pay costs from any source.
- From One to Another/Blurred Lines/Two Gifts One Soul: I'd condense it down into two feats, or maybe even just one. Add a caveat/reminder that any spells created using such mixed seeds can only be cast by spellcasters with a similar such ability (so as to be prepared for future development where classes could be closer along the evolutionary path from Arhosan to PHB spellcasting).
- Efficient Forte: Reduce the cost to use/cast, rather than reducing the cost of the spell itself.
- Focused Seed/Greater: Given that spell seeds have schools now, the classic Spell Focus and Spell Penetration feat lines should do the trick. The only potential issue I can think of is mixing in 1 SP worth of seed from whatever school you've focused in to get the DC bonus on a spell with an otherwise out-of-school effect, but the same thing was already the case when you had the focus on individual seeds.
- Extra Seed: Might want to change it to two or three seeds.
- Antiquarian Casting: Dump it. It's either just the Arcanist class, or it's a Wizard ACF.
- Continuance Temporal: You gain a +2 bonus to your caster level when determining the duration of spells you cast. Spells with a duration of concentration last for 1 round after you cease concentrating on them.
- Shaping Touch: You gain a +2 bonus to your caster level when determining the range and area of spells you cast. When you cast a spell with the dispersed or multi-touch targeting types, you can select up to one additional target, unless one of the spell's seeds would restrict it to less than that.
- Incantations Mystical: When you cast a spell with metamagic applied to it, you may reduce the total spell point cost of the metamagic by 1. This cannot reduce the total cost of applying the metamagic to less than 1.
- Darkness Comes/Daylight Glows: May wish to change it to a caster level bonus/penalty instead of directly influencing the SP caps. Reduce the cost of casting the spell rather than providing bonus SP.

Some random ideas that might fit as seeds, fortes, metamagic, class features, or whatever, I dunno.
- When dispelled, spell ends 1 round later rather than immediately.
- After casting a spell, the next spell you cast within 1 round that uses all of the seeds involved and at least one more seed costs 1 SP less to cast.
- If a spell you cast has no effect as you cast it (no targets, everyone makes their save to negate/stopped by SR, etc.), regain 1/2 the SP spent to cast it.

I shall keep these in mind (and I like them), but despite what immediately follows this sentence, we should probably focus on seeds. (I know, do as I say, not as I do :banghead).

Seeds I shall largely leave to you and Nans. I mean, I'll poke my head in with ideas and such when I have them, and I'll comment on balance and wording once things get close to completion, but I'm certainly not scouring the books for seed concepts.

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Went through the list of Psionic feats on D&DTools. Surprisingly few that were good (once you removed those already converted).

Ack, the text size! Noooooooooo! (Close yer tags :) )

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2016, 05:38:46 PM »
Metamorphosis Seeds General Rules
- All metamorphosis seeds allow you to choose a type of non-templated living creature and gain abilities based off of that creature's monster listing. The chosen creature can have a challenge rating no greater than the target's -2 (Minimum CR: 1/2). A PC's challenge rating is its ECL.
- All metamorphosis seeds have creature type limitations, you can choose any creature with that type as long as they fall within the CR limitations and do not possess a template.
- If you only target one creature use single-target options.
- If you target multiple creatures use multiple-target options. In addition, each target has to have the same options chosen for the seed and the CR limitation for the chosen creature is based off of the lowest CR target.
- Metamorphosis seeds can only only target the caster and/or their allies.

These all look good.

Nature's Gift:

"Otherwise uses the damage" includes damage boost from Improved Natural Attack feats. I don't think we want that.

Dragon Form:

I think we can reduce the cost of this a little. Ten seems a bit high, given the existing CR restriction, especially in light of the cost to be an Outsider. On that note, Dragon, Elemental, and Outsider should all have the same cost, honestly. They're the same strength.

Fey Form:

Says animal instead of fey.

Woodland Form:

Magical beast and plant are expensive - they cost more than turning into an outsider or aberration, and they aren't as good. Cost needs to be reduced.

The [blank] Form Seeds can now grant all EX abilities at the extra five points effect (it goes with DR/Energy Resistance/SR).

I'm not sure why you felt the need to add this in, but it needs to be stripped out immediately. Allowing other Ex abilities is exactly what breaks balance in shapeshifting. There's a reason this wasn't in the list of "safe" abilities to allow.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2016, 06:05:15 PM »
Metamorphosis Seeds General Rules
- All metamorphosis seeds allow you to choose a type of non-templated living creature and gain abilities based off of that creature's monster listing. The chosen creature can have a challenge rating no greater than the target's -2 (Minimum CR: 1/2). A PC's challenge rating is its ECL.
- All metamorphosis seeds have creature type limitations, you can choose any creature with that type as long as they fall within the CR limitations and do not possess a template.
- If you only target one creature use single-target options.
- If you target multiple creatures use multiple-target options. In addition, each target has to have the same options chosen for the seed and the CR limitation for the chosen creature is based off of the lowest CR target.
- Metamorphosis seeds can only only target the caster and/or their allies.

These all look good.

Cool.

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Nature's Gift:

"Otherwise uses the damage" includes damage boost from Improved Natural Attack feats. I don't think we want that.

I did that on purpose.  Example: Dire Tiger does 2d4 damage with it's claws.  It has INA (Claw).  2d4 isn't on the INA chart.  How much damage does it do without the feat?

I'm sure there are other examples out there.

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Dragon Form:

I think we can reduce the cost of this a little. Ten seems a bit high, given the existing CR restriction, especially in light of the cost to be an Outsider. On that note, Dragon, Elemental, and Outsider should all have the same cost, honestly. They're the same strength.


I did say the costs were off.

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Fey Form:

Says animal instead of fey.

Fixed.

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Woodland Form:

Magical beast and plant are expensive - they cost more than turning into an outsider or aberration, and they aren't as good. Cost needs to be reduced.

As dragon.

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The [blank] Form Seeds can now grant all EX abilities at the extra five points effect (it goes with DR/Energy Resistance/SR).

I'm not sure why you felt the need to add this in, but it needs to be stripped out immediately. Allowing other Ex abilities is exactly what breaks balance in shapeshifting. There's a reason this wasn't in the list of "safe" abilities to allow.

Then you can never breathe water, walk on a web as a spider, or a bunch of other useful and thematic abilities.  I see that as an issue.



What do you want to change the costs to?  It's your system so you know what balance point you're looking for.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2016, 06:29:46 PM »
I did that on purpose.  Example: Dire Tiger does 2d4 damage with it's claws.  It has INA (Claw).  2d4 isn't on the INA chart.  How much damage does it do without the feat?

I'm sure there are other examples out there.

Fair enough. Trust WotC to screw things up.

Then you can never breathe water, walk on a web as a spider, or a bunch of other useful and thematic abilities.  I see that as an issue.

I know. But on the other hand, it allows things like the Tarrasque's Carapace and Regeneration, among other bits and pieces lower down the CR totem. A Kyton's regeneration is nearly as good and is CR 6. It's better to throw out flavourful abilities and retain balance than the other way around.

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What do you want to change the costs to?  It's your system so you know what balance point you're looking for.

Hmm. I'll have a think.