Author Topic: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)  (Read 12771 times)

Offline Surreal

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« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 03:37:55 PM by Surreal »

Offline Surreal

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 03:52:43 PM »
reserved for no reason

Offline nijineko

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2011, 12:19:52 AM »
Heheh. i just put those in the handbook section, too, since someone was asking for that info in the 'ask a question' section. ^^ should i delete them?
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Offline Mister Freeze

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2011, 12:34:57 AM »
Your max HP does change for polymorph and shapechange. 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

"the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score."

Another reason why it's so stupidly powerful.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2011, 01:34:07 AM »
Your max HP does change for polymorph and shapechange. 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

"the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score."

Another reason why it's so stupidly powerful.

which i believe was later changed by errata, subschool, or the new polymorph rules.
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Offline Mister Freeze

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2011, 01:42:53 AM »
Was it?  The entry in the Rules Compendium, just like the similar text in alter self that misled people in the first place, in my mind means that if your hit dice were d4s before, they don't become whatever the monster's racial hit dice are.  'Your hit points don't change' means that you don't look up the monster you change into's hit points, and that becomes your max HP.  It's still based on whatever your con score becomes.

Offline Surreal

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2011, 01:04:56 PM »
I don't remember my sources at this point, but I do recall tracking down the most recent rulings that I could find... so I'm pretty sure HP does not change. Besides, by the time you're slinging around Shapechange do you really care about HP?

Offline Surreal

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2011, 01:10:10 PM »
Heheh. i just put those in the handbook section, too, since someone was asking for that info in the 'ask a question' section. ^^ should i delete them?

Either or. Doesn't really matter; as long as the information is out there.

Offline Mister Freeze

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 02:41:17 PM »
I don't remember my sources at this point, but I do recall tracking down the most recent rulings that I could find... so I'm pretty sure HP does not change. Besides, by the time you're slinging around Shapechange do you really care about HP?

While it's true that functionally it doesn't matter, I'm a little skeptical that there was a ruling somewhere that it was reversed.  I've heard that bandied about before, but I've never seen anyone be able to give any sort of citation, so if it does exist I'd appreciate someone being able to show it, because there's probably more useful info there too.  The reason I'm skeptical is because when they revisited polymorph they specifically said that nothing about it was changing.  There's nothing in the PHB2 (where the poly subschool was introduced) or the Rules Compendium to indicate a change was ever made, either.  They both contain the same language used in the PHB that originally misled people, with no indication that it's supposed to be interpreted a different way than Skip originally clarified in the first link I posted.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2011, 03:29:27 PM »
i did a little searching through my wotc website archive (shameless plug - link in sig)... the DMG errata states that polymorphed keep original hit points.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 03:34:15 PM by nijineko »
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Offline Mister Freeze

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2011, 04:07:52 PM »
That is the exact same language that already existed with regards to hit points, there's no change there.  And again, it's not being read correctly.  As I said before, what you're reading means that you don't look up the monster you change into, and its listed max HP becomes yours.  Your maximum hit points are still based on your own hit dice (as opposed to the monster's racial hit dice) and whatever your con score becomes.  If your con mod changes, your max HP changes.  My position is supported by the fact that the original Skip Williams article I posted is from May of 2004, and the DMG errata is from March of 2004. 

edit: as an additional note, I know this makes polymorph/shapechange even more powerful than they already are, but I don't think giving out the wrong information because it's more fair is the right thing to do. 

Also, for what it's worth, metamorphosis works the same way, and it is correctly listed as changing your HP. 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 04:53:04 PM by Mister Freeze »

Offline nijineko

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2011, 04:52:31 PM »
i must have misunderstood the original question.


any chance of having poly-any-obj added to the chart?
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2011, 10:51:55 PM »
That is the exact same language that already existed with regards to hit points, there's no change there.  And again, it's not being read correctly.  As I said before, what you're reading means that you don't look up the monster you change into, and its listed max HP becomes yours.  Your maximum hit points are still based on your own hit dice (as opposed to the monster's racial hit dice) and whatever your con score becomes.  If your con mod changes, your max HP changes.  My position is supported by the fact that the original Skip Williams article I posted is from May of 2004, and the DMG errata is from March of 2004. 

edit: as an additional note, I know this makes polymorph/shapechange even more powerful than they already are, but I don't think giving out the wrong information because it's more fair is the right thing to do. 

Also, for what it's worth, metamorphosis works the same way, and it is correctly listed as changing your HP.
Interesting. I can't find the max hp change clause here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm

Offline Mister Freeze

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2011, 11:03:54 PM »
Oops, I missed that the HP changing clause is in the objects section.  Still, it works the same way, your con changes, so does you max HP. 

Offline Surreal

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2017, 02:43:21 PM »
So this is a long shot, but I was randomly visiting the site and going through some of my old threads. It looks like the images I used to have here are long gone. Do any of the mods know if they are still accessible/recoverable from the old site? Here are the urls...
Code: [Select]
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1308;image
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1310;image
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1312;image

I looked around on my old hard drive but can't seem to find the spreadsheet or image files. They were tables with side by side comparisons of polymorph/wildshape/shapechange for the columns, and in the rows it had stuff like duration, hp, ability scores, types of abilities gained, extra rules, etc etc. it's been so long I don't even remember what was all in it, but it was a good comparison chart and it'd be nice to have again.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2017, 04:28:18 PM »
Niiice, Sinfire Titan just showed up too (straight from Hurricane Irma or there 'bouts).


the 4th crawl of that thread by wayback, got it :
https://web.archive.org/web/20160307011824/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3479.0


Most of the bg-archive made it over, but perhaps that attachment
#-ing system isn't totally compatible with the new set up ... idk.


Oooo  :o they had to stretch their usual tactics a little to get it :
https://web.archive.org/web/20160324150301im_/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ld6s1cht1chclb0uv3bpip7ol1&action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1312;image

... so if that's the "1312:image" then maybe the 1310 and 1308 work
YES ---> https://web.archive.org/web/20160324151039im_/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ld6s1cht1chclb0uv3bpip7ol1&action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1310;image

and ---> https://web.archive.org/web/20160324161209im_/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ld6s1cht1chclb0uv3bpip7ol1&action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1308;image


EDIT edit --- oh and there's my old original avatar ... so pretty (sigh) ... those were the days sang archie+edith bunker zombies  :drunk
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 04:41:56 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
avatar#3 , gravitational lensing edition ... I'm way on the other side of the universe but look like pretty rings

Offline Endarire

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2017, 06:43:25 PM »
I uploaded these images to Google Drive.  They'll stay longer.

Offline Surreal

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2017, 01:48:51 AM »
Thanks guys. I linked those webarchive pics to the first post for now (hope it works). Maybe if I remember I'll actually retype or do a proper upload sometime... give me another 5 years  :lmao

Offline nijineko

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2017, 10:01:13 AM »
we're patient. ^^
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2017, 10:40:38 AM »
I could make proper tables for you if you'd like.