Author Topic: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!  (Read 16042 times)

Offline Rakoa

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Wow, this is really cool. Mobs were always something I liked, just the idea of an enormous horde of goblins/kobolds/orc/any stereotypically expendable minion washing over enemies like a wave of destruction...something very instinctually awesome about that. And now that it is actually effective and reasonable, I think I will give it a try.

And by give it a try, I mean make a Goblin Horde PC for my next campaign.  :D
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Offline CDTalmas

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Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 01:25:30 PM »
Regarding the following...

Quote
A mob automatically deals damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move, with no attack roll needed. Mob attacks ignore concealment and cover. A mob’s attacks are non-magical, unless the base creature’s attacks are considered magical. Damage reduction applies to mob up attacks. If a creature has armor and/or shield, add their AC bonus to the creature's DR against Mob Up. Mob Up cannot hurt a creature with enough DR to fully nullify the attacks of the base creature composing the Mob.

The damage amount and type is based on the damage the most common kind of individual of the mob would normaly deal, but multiplied by a factor based on it's BAB and increase the damage HD according to the new size.

1/2 BAB:Don't multiply
3/4 BAB: multiply by 2
Full BAB:multiply by 3

For example, a mob of 50 orc warriors with longswords would deal 12d6+6 damage to any creature inside it every turn.

The mob can also choose to deal that damage to any unattended object it is touching. So a mob could eventually bring down walls and houses, assuming it's members had enough strength.

...do you count the DR before the whole armor/shield adjustment in relation to the monster?  Let's say that we use a MMII Wortling (under the entry of Orcwort, pg. 165).  It has 1d3 + 2 damage and Poison.  If we make a mob of 20 (maximum amount, divided by 2 for being small), it would become a large mob.  Say you're fighting a Half Orc fighter 16 with AC through the roof thanks to Mithral Full Plate +3 and Lg Shield + 2 and no "natural" DR.  Does that mean that the mob will never damage the Half Orc?  Or do you not count the DR of the Armor/Shield until determining damage of the mob-up attack?  I'm just getting a quick clarification for sake of defining the mob rules.  I could imagine a Stoneskin spell would stop a mob in its tracks... or does that not count as the "natural DR" spoken of earlier?  I guess the ultimate question is "what is used to determine DR in mob rules and WHEN?"

Also, the damage would change from small to large, correct?  So 1d3 (small) > 1d4 (med) > 1d6 (large)?  Then, because of full BAB, it's x3?  3d6 + (2 x 3 = 6)?  Plus poison, of course.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 04:11:14 PM »
Simply put, you first check any DR the creature has. If it is enough to stop an attack from a single mob member, then the mob can't damage it. In contrary case, then add the creature's armor/shield bonus as DR against the mob up attack.


Also, the damage would change from small to large, correct?  So 1d3 (small) > 1d4 (med) > 1d6 (large)?  Then, because of full BAB, it's x3?  3d6 + (2 x 3 = 6)?  Plus poison, of course.

Yes.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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This is a really cool idea, but there's currently no way to interact with mobs or units except damage (and negative levels which act like damage against mobs/units) so there's not much to do when you meet them except run away or go with the slugging match (unless you have a ranged attack and they don't, in which case you win but that's still not all that interesting.)

Why not have them be resistant to status conditions, rather than straight up immune? They should probably still be immune to effects that don't encompass their whole area, but for effects that do, maybe let them apply their size modifier (+4 per category over medium) on the save?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 07:08:53 PM by Concerned Ninja Citizen »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Mmm, yeah; this is a bit weird. Amongst other things, it means that a group of eight commoners will somehow not run in terror from a Great Wyrm that would quite like the hairless apes to go away so it can get back to rearranging its treasure. Which... seems to defeat the point of a fear aura somewhat. :huh
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Offline oslecamo

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This is a really cool idea, but there's currently no way to interact with mobs or units except damage (and negative levels which act like damage against mobs/units) so there's not much to do when you meet them except run away or go with the slugging match (unless you have a ranged attack and they don't, in which case you win but that's still not all that interesting.)
1-It's indeed suposed to simplify interaction. They're kinda suposed to be like 3.0 golems, durable, raw power, and immune to most tricks out there.
2-Basic terrain still affects them at full strength. Walls and pits and whatnot suddenly matter.
3-Mobs/units need leaders to shine. Leaders can be interacted with.


Why not have them be resistant to status conditions, rather than straight up immune? They should probably still be immune to effects that don't encompass their whole area, but for effects that do, maybe let them apply their size modifier (+4 per category over medium) on the save?
Too many area effects that don't allow saves out there.

And as a counter example, here's rocks falling over a cavarly unit, many die, but the guys that managed to stay safe in the gaps can still fight just fine. Just because a bunch of them got crippled or crushed to death doesn't actually affect the guys who didn't.

Mmm, yeah; this is a bit weird. Amongst other things, it means that a group of eight commoners will somehow not run in terror from a Great Wyrm that would quite like the hairless apes to go away so it can get back to rearranging its treasure. Which... seems to defeat the point of a fear aura somewhat. :huh
The alternative is to fully defeat the point of any kind of military organization, because whitout this, in D&D grouping 8 guys togheter is just asking them to be raped by area effects.

Anyway, an idea I just had right now since I mentioned the golems would be mobs/units each having a secret weakness, something along the lines of each mob/unit having to pick one from a list:

Cowards-The mob/unit can be affected by area fear effects. They still gain a +4 bonus on saves against fear for each size category they're bigger than medium.

Cubersome-The mob/unit can be affected by area entanglements and immobilization.  They still gain a +4 bonus on saves against entanglement for each size category they're bigger than medium.

Headless Body-the mob/unit needs a leader to fuction. If it leaves the unit/mob, or is killed/disabled, then the mob/unit automatically disperses.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 08:10:05 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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The idea of weaknesses is an interesting one. What knowledge check would you require to identify a mob or unit's weakness? Is there a knowledge (military) ?

Offline Raineh Daze

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Thing is, 'eight commoners in a mob' is the exact type of group that would run in terror from the dragon. It's not military organisation in that case, it's clumping people together and hoping for the best. Honestly, this is what's weird: a mob gains all the morale and cohesion benefits that require military training and drills to achieve (complete immunity to basically every effect short of fireballing them to hell and back), despite it being a hell of a lot easier to disperse, say, the drunken contents of a pub than a smaller military unit.

I will freely admit that this is possibly my least-favourite thing out of everything of yours that I've seen. Damage sponges that automatically deal damage, are basically immune to all effects, and (if an NPC is in charge), can easily gain a powerful NPC that's got massively inflated defences from the people around him? Oh, and if the leader has any high mental stat score, the mob also gains huge benefits.

Then you get led units, which get to use special abilities as well as almost all of the defences and the ability to damage anything within reach...

I dunno, I just wouldn't think that 'make groups of weak creatures more threatening' would basically be making them vastly more annoying to deal with than most creatures of the same CR, just on the grounds that sheer damage dealt is the only applicable way to down them and most class abilities become... well, irrelevant. It just becomes a race to deal damage against something that can have... what, 90 HP whilst still being CR 3, and deal 6d6 damage automatically? Or 6d8 from anywhere within 120', moving back 20' each time. :/

Just seems kinda... draggy. And bland.

Blah. Should've written this post out ages ago, when I first got linked to it.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 10:53:32 PM by Raineh Daze »
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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"Draggy and bland" pretty much sums up my issues with the template as well, and I feel like the "immune to every status condition and combat maneuver just 'cause" part of mob anatomy is what makes it that way.

On the other hand, I appreciate the desire to make mobs not easily bypassable by any given spellcaster and the way you've got their saves working would have them lose to most area save or sucks.

The weaknesses idea is a decent compromise position between those two points. It's possible to disable a mob, but you have to figure out how first and then get access to that particular effect type.

As another alternative, maybe mobs could be partially affected by status conditions. That fits with the idea that part of the mob is taking the brunt of the attack to protect the rest. That would work with things like fear effects or fatigue/ exhaustion and maybe analogues could be set up for some others (sickened/nauseated, dazzled/blinded, maybe entangled/immobilized)

Offline oslecamo

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Ok, another idea that had today that may work better

Mob Unit's HP is between:
100%-75% max HP=Full immunity.
75%-50% max HP= Can be affected by stuff that allows saves/checks, but automatically recovers at the start of their next round.
50%-25% max HP=Can be affected by stuff that allows saves/checks, gets a new save to try to get rid off next round.
25%-0% max HP=Affected normally by stuff that allows saves/checks

Basically, as the mob/unit loses members and cohesions, it becomes gradually more vulnerable.

despite it being a hell of a lot easier to disperse, say, the drunken contents of a pub than a smaller military unit.
To be fair, a bunch of drunkards is not really a mob. A bunch of guys going in a killing/burning spree, that's a mob, and last time I checked they have to bring in shock forces to deal with those. When they can deal with them at all.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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I like the vulnerability based on remaining HP. Captures the "defense in depth" thing pretty well without being too complicated. Also works nicely with the fact that mobs have oodles of HP.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Looks a lot better. A full HP mob can use sheer volume of flesh to reduce damage, and high level character vs an army is less focused on 'who can deal damage faster'.

I have a question: if you use Summon Monster to summon multiples of a lower-levelled creature, can you form them into a mob should there be 8 or more?
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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I don't know about summon monster, but the IMC demons who summon exponentially larger groups as they move down their lists, might be able to form their troops into mobs (or units even.)

Offline Raineh Daze

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IMC?

I know I've seen something that has that sort of effect.

... honestly, I just want to overwhelm people with a bunch of celestial (honey) badgers or something equally ridiculous.
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Improved Monster Class. Several of the demons have summon abilities where you can get 1 of the highest powered, 2 of the second, 4 of the 3rd, 8 of the 4th, etc.

EDIT: Seems it's actually the Devils (the lawful infernals) who get exponential summoning abilities. An 8HD Pit Fiend, for example, can summon 8 Lemures. A 12 HD Pit Fiend can summon 8 Bearded Devils, or 32 lemures.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 01:12:31 AM by Concerned Ninja Citizen »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Ah.

... I'll just satisfy myself with trying to form a pseudonatural creature mob at some point.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Ah.

... I'll just satisfy myself with trying to form a pseudonatural creature mob at some point.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2013, 05:41:51 AM »
Changed the rules a bit to allow Dex bonus to work against mob attacks.

Offline MrRoboto

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What happens when a mob leader with Combat Casting cast cure light wounds on all members of their mob? Does the mob heal 1d8+CL x number of members?

Offline oslecamo

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Yes. Helps making low-level casters as viable leaders.