Author Topic: 5e Race Evaluation  (Read 31490 times)

Offline caelic

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5e Race Evaluation
« on: August 25, 2014, 12:32:22 PM »
So which races in 5e are the pick of the crop, and which ones are not so great?

1. DWARF: Dwarves always seem to be solid, and they're pretty solid here.  A bonus to Constitution is useful for anyone, and the speed issue is slightly less pronounced than in 3.5.  Mountain Dwarves, I'd say, are the slightly stronger choice: +2 to STR and CON makes for a great fighter, and access to medium armor is very helpful for classes with limited or no armor proficiency, like wizard.

2. ELF: I'm honestly not hugely impressed by elves in this edition.  Dexterity is a very useful stat, but most of their other abilities seem to be there mainly because they were there in previous editions.  They get proficiency in Perception, which is useful.  They get immunity to sleep, which is...well, useful if someone casts Sleep on you.  There's nothing BAD here, but I'm not seeing much that makes me go "Wow!" either.  High Elves get a bonus to Intelligence, which is useful if you're going to be a wizard, and a free wizard cantrip, which is really more useful if you're not going to be a wizard.  Wood elves have the interesting "Mask of the Wild" feature, which allows them to hide when lightly obscured and could lead to some interesting Rogue builds.  Drow...how can I put this nicely? I can't.  Drow suck.  Sunlight sensitivity is a HUGE penalty, and in no way balanced out by improved darkvision and a couple of once a day spells.

3. HALFLING: Setting aside the truly grotesque halfling artwork that seems to be prevalent in this book (did they open up a toxic waste dump near the Shire?  Does that account for the hideous mutant on page 26?) Halflings have some interesting abilities.  Again, a bonus to Dexterity is always good, because Dexterity is one of the most valuable all-around stats in 5e.  Lucky, though, is the real gem.  The ability to reroll natural 1's on attacks, saves, AND ability checks?  Yes, please.  A halfling auto-fails 1 in 400 times, as opposed to 1 in 20; that's a pretty big advantage.  Of the subraces, the Lightfoot's "Naturally Stealthy" ability has already stirred up a lot of argument over whether it can be used in combat or not; if so, it's very powerful coupled with the rogue's Cunning Action.  The Stout's resistance to poison is nice, but hardly game-breaking.

4. HUMAN: It looks like human's still going to be the go-to choice, particularly variant human.  The basic human ability--+1 to every stat--is actually quite strong, especially in a point buy system, but the variant human's +1 to 2 stats, extra skill proficiency, and extra feat allows for a much more tailored character.

5. DRAGONBORN: Okay, I'm going to say it: I don't get why Dragonborn is a base race.  I never have.  It seems like a highly niche race to me that doesn't fit well in every campaign.  Clearly, though, a lot of people have love for the lizard-dudes.  Statwise, though, they're underwhelming.  +2 to Str and +1 to Charisma isn't all that useful a package, except maybe to a Paladin or a Strength-based bard.  The breath weapon is, effectively, a cantrip with limited uses.  Resistance to one type of energy is nice, but niche.  Overall, unimpressive.

6. GNOME: Has anyone else ever felt like WotC just doesn't know what to do with Gnomes?  I mean...they know what to do with Dwarves, they know what to do with Halflings, but Gnomes have always felt like they fluctuate between smaller Dwarves and bigger Halflings, except when they're embracing the "Tinker Gnome."  Intelligence, sadly, is a dump stat for most classes apart from Wizard in this edition, so a +2 Int is useful for a few builds, and sub-optimal for everyone else.  Gnome Cunning is actually rather nice; advantage on saving throws is important, and this makes gnomes a lot more survivable.  Of the subraces, I think the Forest Gnome is slightly better.  Speaking with moles isn't the sexiest ability in the game, but it's useful--quite a bit more useful than "I can make a music box or one of those annoying little monkeys that bangs cymbals together, and it lasts for a whole day before falling apart!"  Seriously: if you're going to give them the ability to tinker, make it MEANINGFUL.  Not "I can make one of three specific things, only one of which has any practical use whatsoever, and none of which actually last, so I can't even pick up a few silver pieces by selling them."

7. HALF-ELF: Now, half-elves seem to have gotten some love in this edition.  An extra two proficient skills of your choice is a big deal in a system where most classes only GET two or three proficient skills.  A total of +4 to stats is on the higher end of the scale; a lot of classes use Charisma, so a +2 there is pretty good, and the other two points go where you want them.  Toss in Darkvision and the elven resistance to sleep and charm, and you have a race which is, IMO, pretty clearly superior to elf, and an all-around winner.

8. HALF-ORC: Solid.  +2 STR and +1 CON isn't quite as nice as the Mountain Dwarf, but is a nice fighter-y mix.  Proficiency in Intimidation is useful--extra skills are always welcome.  Relentless Endurance may be the half-orc's gem ability; given how many healing abilities there are in the system, staying on your feet a little bit longer could easily get you back into the fight.  Savage attacks will synergize well with a Champion fighter.

9. TIEFLING: Again, I get that a lot of people like them.  Mechanically, I'm not loving them.  +1 Int and +2 Cha doesn't seem like a great combination to me, given that your class is likely to rely on one or the other, not both.  Resistance to fire is nice, but again, the once a day spells don't seem all that compelling to me.  I think the main reason to choose a Tiefling in this edition is "I want to play a Tiefling," and maybe that's not a bad thing.


Thoughts?


Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2014, 01:57:39 PM »
Due to the more rapid gain of base stats in 5e, and with the cap at 20 for any stat, I don't see the racial stat adjustment being that great of an evaluation of a class. You will likely end up with a +1 advantage over another racial choice for a few short levels, but there's an inevitability in having 20 in your primary stat(s).

As you stated under Dwarf, I think the additional racial abilities are far more valuable, as per the dwarf wizard you noted.

Similarly I would absolutely take energy resistance on a Dragonborn. As a caster, you'd otherwise be sinking your concentration into maintaining Protection from Energy.*

*Granted, I don't know what the magic item landscape looks like yet.

Offline linklord231

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2014, 02:04:11 PM »
I find it odd that the only way to get +2 Wis is with the variant human taking a feat that gives +1 Wis. It seems like a pretty significant oversight.
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Offline caelic

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2014, 03:53:09 PM »
The thing is, Nunkuruji, in games that allow feats, those stat increases aren't a given; you need to decide whether to take a stat increase or a feat, and some of the feats are pretty crucial (War Caster for a pure caster comes to mind.)  Having a +2 to your primary stat means one less ability boost you need to devote to it, and therefore, one more feat you can pick up.

I agree, though, that other abilities are what make or break the race.

I'm honestly not sure if I'd give the overall not to human or half-elf, but those would be my top two.

Offline linklord231

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2014, 04:58:40 PM »
Quote
Having a +2 to your primary stat means one less ability boost you need to devote to it, and therefore, one more feat you can pick up.

This.  So far at least, it seems like MAD is an even worse thing to suffer from than it was in 3.5 because it's so difficult to increase your abilities.  Most classes only need 1 ability score maxed out, or maybe 2.  If you start at a 17 in one and a 16 in the other (the highest you can get with point buy), you can increase the 17 to 20 by level 8 (+2 at 4, pick one of the feats that give +1 to that ability at 8) and the 16 to a 20 by level 16.  That means you only get 1 feat to pick from freely throughout your whole career. 

If you instead roll stats, it seems like you have a pretty good chance of getting at least 1 16, which means you could have 2 feats to pick from. 

It seems to me that your best bet is to roll your stats first, then decide from there whether you should be a Variant Human or a race with +2 to your high stat.  If you roll and your highest two stats are a 15 and a 13, you're best off as a human.  If you get at least one 16 or higher, you should probably be a +2 race. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2014, 05:08:08 PM »
Got it. Feats we're really covered in basic rules, don't have my hands on the PHB yet.
I guess then it comes down to whether the racial boon is on par with a feat.

Offline Wulfrak

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2014, 05:32:32 PM »
Trigger Warning: Flavor

I have noticed something really interesting in my group.  A lot more people are building a lot of their characters around the basic idea of "i want to play race x."  When we are asking each other what we are building, almost everyone is saying "I'm building a (race) (class)" or "(race) (class) (background)" instead of just saying "I'm building a (class)."  It seems like people are choosing classes to fit their races instead of races to fit their classes, and it really showed at the gaming table, as there was a lot more role- playing as opposed to roll-playing than usual.  In a party of six this past sunday, there was only one human- our group's main power gamer- but he then chose fighter instead of wizard.  Speaking of humans, I think people are really excited about the fact that human isn't the far and away best racial choice for basically anything.  Regardless of whether some other race is the absolutely most optimal choice for this and that, people are relishing the freedom to build something different that is still good.  People have even been building odd race-class combinations- a Drow Monk comes to mind- that aren't actually as bad as you would think they would be.  Certainly not optimized, but certainly not unplayable either.

Offline linklord231

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2014, 10:18:33 PM »
The default human is actually kind of lousy for most builds. Sure you get 6 stat points, but statistically only 3 of thrm are gonna have any effect. And because not every class needs every stat, youre better off having one high stat than a bunch of mediocre stats.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2014, 07:16:29 PM »
Drow Monk? This your group or are you stalking me? :P

Offline Prime32

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2014, 07:27:42 PM »
I'm just waiting for them to release some way to sneak attack with spells. Then using High Elf to pick up shocking grasp becomes a lot more interesting...

Offline Shadowhunter

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2014, 08:30:01 PM »
I'm just waiting for them to release some way to sneak attack with spells. Then using High Elf to pick up shocking grasp becomes a lot more interesting...

You're referring to the part of Shocking Grasp that mention attacking someone wearing metal armor grants advantage, I presume?

Offline Prime32

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2014, 08:48:42 PM »
Yep.

Offline Arz

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2014, 11:58:55 AM »
I'm just waiting for them to release some way to sneak attack with spells. Then using High Elf to pick up shocking grasp becomes a lot more interesting...

As long as its an attack roll (melee, ranged, or spell) it works. Look at arcane trickster to get some hideous amount of dice. Now if only there was a feat to improve crit chances and you coulddouble that.

Offline Prime32

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2014, 12:13:50 PM »
As long as its an attack roll (melee, ranged, or spell) it works.

Quote from: Sneak Attack
The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.

Offline Shadowhunter

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2014, 12:17:43 PM »
I'm just waiting for them to release some way to sneak attack with spells. Then using High Elf to pick up shocking grasp becomes a lot more interesting...

As long as its an attack roll (melee, ranged, or spell) it works. Look at arcane trickster to get some hideous amount of dice. Now if only there was a feat to improve crit chances and you coulddouble that.

Quote
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly
and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can
deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with
an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The
attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.

You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another
enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy
isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on
the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you
gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack
column of the Rogue table.

Emphasis mine. Pretty sure that exclude spells.
Of course, Arcane Tricksters can use Mage Hand to grant themselves advantage on their attack as a bonus action at 13th level. Won't work all the time, since the Mage Hand needs to be within 5 feet of the target and you might need your bonus action to move the Mage Hand into place.

Offline Prime32

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2014, 12:21:21 PM »
So far a "thug rogue" who takes 2 levels of barbarian for Reckless Attack seems decent.

Speaking of future material, if there's ever a way to get cantrips onto other spell lists then go Half-elf Warlock 2/Cleric (Knowledge or Light) 8/Wizard (Evoker) 10. Add Int, Wis and Cha to your eldritch blasts. :p
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 12:48:52 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Arz

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2014, 12:27:19 PM »
Dragonborn loves barbarian
Weapon meet breath weapon. Breath weapon meet 24 Constitution. Produce a wonderful berserkergang together.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 06:49:14 PM by Arz »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2014, 06:39:36 PM »
I lack the medium/high maths skills to figure this out.
But some roll "4d6 drop 1" results are gonna be > or >> to Point Buy.
If a good at maths guy wants to tackle the Vegas style odds ...  :) :bigeyes

Especially if you want Feats instead of stat bump(s) and have dump stat(s).
To make it work, you'd have to have a DM Ruling that your PC can go with
Step #3 first, then apply Step #1 racial stat bumps, then Step #2 pick Class.

If so, I'm willing to make a semi-educated guess and bet, that ~2 in 5 PC builds,
would be better with Rolling; and solidly so, as more books come out.


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Variant Humans and Half Elves, make for a simple comparison.
Subtract off the similar stuff and you're left with: 

the 1 bonus Feat ... versus

+2 Cha ; or +1 Cha and +1 to another stat
Fey saves thingy
Darkvision
Any 1 skill prof
Elvish language

Near obvious choice, depending on classes.
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Offline Dictum Mortuum

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2014, 03:46:21 AM »
Hold on, I'm going to use science (that I haven't used since my university years!).

Since we've got a 27 point buy, that means that we can distribute 4 points to each attribute and have 3 point buy points to spare. Let's say that we create the following spread: 12,12,12,13,13,13.

Using anydice, we've got the following chances: http://anydice.com/program/4617

So, for a single stat roll, we've got the following chances:

Chance that the roll will be higher than or equal to 10: 82.5%
Chance that the roll will be higher than or equal to 12: 61.6%
Chance that the roll will be higher than or equal to 13: 35.5%

Based on these chances, I'm going to calculate the chance of getting a stat array of 12 or higher. The chance of getting that stat array using point buy is 100%, but you don't have the chance of getting any higher score.

This is a binomial distribution with six events, success probability is 61.6% and we want 6 successes. Turns out that the chances are about 5.4%, which is quite small.

However, it's safe to assume that you won't need all six of your stats to be higher than or equal to 12 - you might get away with four out of six for instance.

This is a binomial distribution with six events, success probability is 61.6% and we want 4 successes. Turns out that the chances are about 31.8%.

Finally, when rolling, the chances that all your scores will be higher than or equal to 10 is 31.5%.

Assuming that I didn't mess up too badly, I'd say that point buy is still cool.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 04:30:40 AM by Dictum Mortuum »
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Offline IlPazzo

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Re: 5e Race Evaluation
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2014, 04:42:14 AM »
You can easily find the distribution by googling "4d6 drop lowest distribution". This site here is very good in that you can input a lot of different roll methods and get the distribution for that: http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/diestats.php

You can easily show that the average roll with 4d6 drop lowest is about 12.39 with a deviation of 2.85 (of course average and deviation is not a good description of such an asymmetrical distribution).

This other guy shows the distribution separated into "ability 1" (the highest) to "ability 6" (the lowest) with averages for every ability (third graph, averages noted on brackets):
http://catlikecoding.com/blog/post:4d6_drop_lowest

We notice what we always knew: 4d6 drop lowest averages to better scores that point buy, but with a wide distribution.
And this is why min/max-ers usually prefer point buy. Reliability is an important factor when you build in advance.

I personally prefer to roll stats prior to choosing race and class OR using point buy if I already choose the class.



On 5e races now, I too feel like the chance to swap ability increase with feats makes racial ability modifiers kinda boring. Every character will want at least a couple feats. No one will ever want default human, and choosing between variant human and a different race will just be a matter of how important the rest of the racial abilities are to your character or if you want to grab that feat at level 1 or later.
This makes me sad as a minmaxer and happy as a role player. No more All Human parties because feats or picking a race only for the ability scores.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 04:44:45 AM by IlPazzo »