Author Topic: I disagree with a statement by Josh  (Read 79533 times)

Offline Vasja

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 109
  • I always edit posts just after posting.
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #140 on: December 16, 2011, 09:46:21 AM »
if playing multiple games makes you better, not doing so makes you worse than someone who does.  That's math.

This is not the logical or mathematical conclusion. If playing multiple games increases player skill it does not imply that a player who plays one game is less skilled.

Ex: Player A plays every RPG known to man, sucks at each one. Player B plays two RPGs, but is a good player.

On the other hand, the conclusion that [ Player A < Player A + more games ] is a valid conclusion (assuming that the premise is true).
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 09:53:47 AM by Vasja »

Offline Kajhera

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 707
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #141 on: December 16, 2011, 09:52:50 AM »
Okay, I've studied GURPS, BESM, d20 modern, d20 future, so on. We just never actually play them. If we like something well enough from a d20 system we ... houserule it into D&D. So yeah, we wind up with BESM gunbunnies and d20 future mutations ... because we're weird.

Makes it difficult to convince people to actually try another RPG. xD

Offline archangel.arcanis

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #142 on: December 16, 2011, 10:04:17 AM »
SneeR

First off, you are taking this too seriously.
second "Basket" had proven to be not only a stupid hypocrite but agressively interested in mocking and makeing trouble.  I started out assuming that BB was not all wind... but you are not BB.
Josh repeatedly calling her biscuit after it was made clear that wasn't her name is being a douche. It really doesn't matter that she was mocking or hypocritical, which you have been through most of this thread BTW. As one of the BGs you get some extra leeway, this is your house after all, but that doesn't mean you can totally ignore the rules here.

Quote
As for the Socratic method, do you mean to tell me that you have completely understood the mechanisim for everything you ever learned, before you learned it?

How meta right
As SneeR said you aren't using the Socratic method the way it is described. You are making assertions for answers without ellaborating on them and you certainly aren't asking any questions (which would probably be useful to you making your point as it would get us thinking about things in a certain light).


Quote
And so:
if playing multiple games makes you better, not doing so makes you worse than someone who does.  That's math.
This is a false dichotomy. I disagree with the assertion that it is absolutely going to make you better, but even with that as an assumption it is still wrong. Assuming it makes me better to play more games, it doesn't have any bearing on if I'm better than someone else. They may not have needed the experience in a different system to have learned the same lessons. Ironically this is the same issue I see in the kids I teach martial arts to. They don't see their own improvements, because they are too focused on how they stack up to other people.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #143 on: December 16, 2011, 10:12:59 AM »
...
the Socratic method is when you ask questions and say things to make others think of the answer.  The best thing about it is that the other person must participate to get any sort of answer, and if they don't i know they are not really asking a question.  People not actually interested in the question are a waste of my time. 
There is considerably more to the Socratic method than this.  A lot of it involves (a) asking the right questions and (b) ensuring that there is a baseline of knowledge from which they can construct interesting responses to those questions.  If I were to start quizzing someone using an unknown terminology and ranking system, then I'm not being Socratic. 

I have to agree with Archangel and Meg above:  I gently prodded that I thought Josh could be much better in his online communication, especially if he is going to use idiosyncratic definitions for terms.  And, the upshot is that I start heavily discounting or ignoring everything that is said.  Though in this thread that might not be too bad a thing.

@"better" games
I have no problem, nor do I see a problem, in making a value judgment as to what makes a better or worse game.  I also think it's completely obvious that you want a game that does best what you want it to do.  I think that borders on the tautological.

However, these games also all come with their own baggage.  D&D's baggage is, I think, sufficiently well-documented.  I don't want to derail into bashing Burning Wheel, even though there are things in it I good and truly like.  For example, I really really like the Duel of Wits, which is the sort of mechanic, if memory serves, started this thread.  But, telling someone like me who was interested in a social intrigue game "go play Burning Wheel b/c it is a 'better' game" is not going to work.  The judgment that it is a "better" game is highly multidimensional, including things like character creation, gameplay, product support, and so on. 

When BG did reviews on the podcast, they were reasonably clear as to what their ranking system was, though I remember it being pretty mushy -- "fuck yeah!" is hard to quantify. 

Offline Stabbald

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #144 on: December 16, 2011, 10:21:47 AM »
if playing multiple games makes you better, not doing so makes you worse than someone who does.  That's math.

No, it's a fallacious argument.

You might as well further suggest that just because a neurologist studies a narrower medical field than a general practitioner, he is "worse" at medicine.

Offline BG_Josh

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #145 on: December 16, 2011, 10:39:46 AM »
A) you want to discuss the socratic method, start a thread. The bad news isthat kind of meta education has to apply to something you already know well.

B) it is math. And that statement is "logically true" use it as a learning example.

Offline Kajhera

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 707
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #146 on: December 16, 2011, 10:45:15 AM »
Do you think that someone could play many games and still be a poor gamer?

Offline Vasja

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 109
  • I always edit posts just after posting.
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #147 on: December 16, 2011, 10:46:16 AM »
B) it is math. And that statement is "logically true" use it as a learning example.

A = player A skill (one game)
B = player B skill (one game)
S = skill gained from playing multiple games

You propose:

A + S > B

This can be true. It is, however, not a logical argument. Counter-example:

A = 10, B = 50, S = 20
A + S < B !!

Offline BG_Josh

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #148 on: December 16, 2011, 11:06:33 AM »
Do you think that someone could play many games and still be a poor gamer?

"If" is the key word.  It allows us to seperate the argument.

Offline BG_Josh

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #149 on: December 16, 2011, 11:10:13 AM »
B) it is math. And that statement is "logically true" use it as a learning example.

A = player A skill (one game)
B = player B skill (one game)
S = skill gained from playing multiple games

You propose:

A + S > B

This can be true. It is, however, not a logical argument. Counter-example:

A = 10, B = 50, S = 20
A + S < B !!

No I propose that if A+S>B then B<A+S

Offline Kajhera

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 707
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #150 on: December 16, 2011, 11:12:29 AM »
Do you think that someone could play many games and still be a poor gamer?

"If" is the key word.  It allows us to seperate the argument.

Er, where do you plan to insert that exactly - oh, your argument, right.

Here's your first statement logically.

A: X plays multiple games.
B: X is better at gaming.
A implies B.

If A is false (X does not play multiple games) then B could be anything and the statement would be true. So your statement does not in fact imply that not A implies not B.

What your statement does imply is that if X is not better at gaming, X does not play multiple games.

So ... being worse at gaming makes you play fewer games. This what you meant to say?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 11:14:29 AM by Kajhera »

Offline archangel.arcanis

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #151 on: December 16, 2011, 11:13:21 AM »
Do you think that someone could play many games and still be a poor gamer?

"If" is the key word.  It allows us to seperate the argument.
So I'm guessing the outright statement of playing multiple games makes you a better gamer on page 5 is just missing its "if".

added quote for convenience:
Quote
First playing multiple games refreshes and energizes you in different ways.
Second, you become a better gamer overall when you play multiple games.
It seems amazing that you would always want to play the same game.  Why not have a variety?

Offline Kajhera

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 707
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #152 on: December 16, 2011, 11:15:43 AM »
Ah, I was working with "if playing multiple games makes you better, not doing so makes you worse than someone who does." Which I'm pretty sure he meant.

Offline archangel.arcanis

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #153 on: December 16, 2011, 11:19:37 AM »
Ah, I was working with "if playing multiple games makes you better, not doing so makes you worse than someone who does." Which I'm pretty sure he meant.
That is how I understood it as well, but he is telling us that wasn't his intention now. So we either have to assume he made a dumb argument and is back peddling from it or assume he has issues communicating his point via text (which is a known issue for him). Guess which I'll side with until proven otherwise.  ;)

Offline BG_Josh

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #154 on: December 16, 2011, 11:23:20 AM »
Do you think that someone could play many games and still be a poor gamer?

"If" is the key word.  It allows us to seperate the argument.
So I'm guessing the outright statement of playing multiple games makes you a better gamer on page 5 is just missing its "if".

added quote for convenience:
Quote
First playing multiple games refreshes and energizes you in different ways.
Second, you become a better gamer overall when you play multiple games.
It seems amazing that you would always want to play the same game.  Why not have a variety?

No.  It's true. It's just not mathamatically provable (as far as I know).  Remember I reasponded to a question in the second instance.

Offline Vasja

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 109
  • I always edit posts just after posting.
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #155 on: December 16, 2011, 11:23:57 AM »
Ah, I see now. Thanks for the clarification, archangel.arcanis. [I hate how you can't write tone into certain sentence structures. Therefore.... have a smiley  :)]

I would probably disagree with the statement that it's true in all cases - some people do not work the same way creatively and do not benefit from sidelong experience, not to mention the fact that 'a good gamer' is a fairly fluid measurement - but I agree with it in the general.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 11:25:48 AM by Vasja »

Offline archangel.arcanis

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #156 on: December 16, 2011, 11:28:26 AM »
Do you think that someone could play many games and still be a poor gamer?

"If" is the key word.  It allows us to seperate the argument.
So I'm guessing the outright statement of playing multiple games makes you a better gamer on page 5 is just missing its "if".

added quote for convenience:
Quote
First playing multiple games refreshes and energizes you in different ways.
Second, you become a better gamer overall when you play multiple games.
It seems amazing that you would always want to play the same game.  Why not have a variety?

No.  It's true. It's just not mathamatically provable (as far as I know).  Remember I reasponded to a question in the second instance.
I see as the argument shifted some due to the question, rather than you defending the quoted statement you were addressing a similar but different issue.

Offline BG_Josh

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #157 on: December 16, 2011, 11:35:28 AM »
Ah, I was working with "if playing multiple games makes you better, not doing so makes you worse than someone who does." Which I'm pretty sure he meant.
That is how I understood it as well, but he is telling us that wasn't his intention now. So we either have to assume he made a dumb argument and is back peddling from it or assume he has issues communicating his point via text (which is a known issue for him). Guess which I'll side with until proven otherwise.  ;)

I like how you were flatly demonstrated to be at fault for not understanding and you manage to justify your mistake, even when you know it's one.

Offline Kajhera

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 707
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #158 on: December 16, 2011, 11:39:57 AM »
Ah, I was working with "if playing multiple games makes you better, not doing so makes you worse than someone who does." Which I'm pretty sure he meant.
That is how I understood it as well, but he is telling us that wasn't his intention now. So we either have to assume he made a dumb argument and is back peddling from it or assume he has issues communicating his point via text (which is a known issue for him). Guess which I'll side with until proven otherwise.  ;)

I like how you were flatly demonstrated to be at fault for not understanding and you manage to justify your mistake, even when you know it's one.
Clarifying would be more helpful than criticizing misclarifications I think.

Offline archangel.arcanis

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
    • View Profile
Re: I disagree with a statement by Josh
« Reply #159 on: December 16, 2011, 11:42:11 AM »
Ah, I was working with "if playing multiple games makes you better, not doing so makes you worse than someone who does." Which I'm pretty sure he meant.
That is how I understood it as well, but he is telling us that wasn't his intention now. So we either have to assume he made a dumb argument and is back peddling from it or assume he has issues communicating his point via text (which is a known issue for him). Guess which I'll side with until proven otherwise.  ;)

I like how you were flatly demonstrated to be at fault for not understanding and you manage to justify your mistake, even when you know it's one.
The problem was that we weren't getting your point due to the miscommunication. That happens on the internet a lot, especially when text isn't the best mode of communication for most of the people involved. Once you came and made it clearer what you actually meant the issue was dropped. I wasn't putting fault anywhere honestly. I made a snarky comment about the 2 most likely scenarios, since it wasn't just me who was wrong about interpreting your statement. I even put a  ;) to show I was just messing with you.