Author Topic: New take on Reserve Feats  (Read 4760 times)

Offline RobbyPants

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New take on Reserve Feats
« on: November 30, 2015, 09:54:56 AM »
I was thinking about a different take on Reserve Feats. This idea would only work if we assumed 0-level spells could be used at-will (house rules I use). The idea would be to take a feat to beef up one of these spells. It would be less powerful than what you could typically cast at any given level, but it wouldn't use up any of your spells per day.

A second note: I've changed the damage-dealing cantrips to be slightly more powerful. The feats will be based on these versions of the spells:
(click to show/hide)

In addition, Cure/Inflict Minor Wounds only heal targets below half their maximum HP.

So, with that in mind:



Burst of Flame [General]
Prerequisite: Able to cast Finger of Fire. Caster level 3+.
Benefit: When casting Finger of Fire, instead of making a ranged touch attack, you affect all targets in a five-foot radius. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. In addition, the damage cap for Finger of Fire is increased to 10d6 at 19th level. Any target that fails its Reflex save and takes damage starts on fire, taking 1d6 fire damage for every 2d6 damage the spell deals (round down). This lasts one round for every 2d6 damage the spell deals (round down), or until the flames are extinguished.


Cone of Frost [General]
Prerequisite: Able to cast Ray of Frost. Caster level 3+.
Benefit: When casting Ray of Frost change the range to 15 feet plus five feet per three caster levels and the range to a cone of equal size. Instead of making a ranged touch attack, all targets in the area take cold damage, with a Fortitude save halving the damage. In addition, the damage cap for Ray of Frost is increased to 10d6 at 19th level. Any creature who fails their Fortitude save and takes damage has their speed (all movement modes) halved for one round per caster level. Each creature can only have their speed halved by this effect once at a time, although future uses can extend the duration.


Corrosive Spray [General]
Prerequisite: Able to cast Acid Splash. Caster level 3+.
Benefit: When casting Acid Splash, if the attack roll succeeds, each creature adjacent to the target suffers one point of acid damage per die of damage dealt to the target. In addition, the damage cap for Acid Splash is increased to 10d4 at 19th level. If the target takes damage from this spell, any damage reduction it has is reduced by one point per two caster levels (to a minimum of zero) for one round per caster level. Each creature can only have their damage reduction reduced this way once at a time, but additional uses can extend the duration.


Curing Touch [General]
Prerequisite: Able to cast Cure Minor Wounds. Caster level 3+.
Benefit: When casting Cure Minor Wounds, you heal 1d6 hit points of damage per every odd caster level (2d6 at 3rd level, 3d6 at 5th, etc). You are able to heal targets above half their hit points, but they are only healed one point per every odd level once they are above half. Cure Minor Wounds always does full damage against creatures damaged by positive energy.


Electric Bolt [General]
Prerequisite: Able to cast Electric Jolt. Caster level 3+.
Benefit: When casting Electric Jolt, change the area to a line extending out to close range. Instead of making a ranged touch attack, all targets in the area take electricity damage, with a Refelx save halving the damage. In addition, the damage cap for Electric Jolt is increased to 10d6 at 19th level. Any creature who fails their Reflex save and takes damage is entangled for one round per caster level.


Force Dart [General]
Prerequisite: Able to cast Force Bolt. Caster level 3+.
Benefit: When casting Force Bolt, you may opt to cast it as a full-round action. When doing so, you may shoot a number of bolts equal to the number of attacks you'd be able to make from your Base Attack Bonus. Each attack requires a separate attack roll, and may affect a different target than previous attacks. You do not get extra attacks from Two Weapon Fighting or Rapid Shot, but you do get an extra attack if affected by Haste. In addition, the damage cap for Force Bolt is increased to 10d3 at 19th level.


[General]Thunderclap
Prerequisite: Able to cast Sonic Snap. Caster level 3+.
Benefit: When casting Sonic Snap, change the area of effect to a five-foot radius. In addition, the damage cap for Sonic Snap is increased to 10d3 at 19th level. Any creature that fails it's Fortitude save and takes damage is knocked prone (in addition to the normal effect of being deafened).


Touch of Pain [General]
Prerequisite: Able to cast Inflict Minor Wounds. Caster level 3+.
Benefit: When casting Inflict Minor Wounds, you deal 1d6 hit points of damage per every odd caster level (2d6 at 3rd level, 3d6 at 5th, etc). You are able to heal targets above half their hit points, but they are only healed one point per every odd level once they are above half. Inflict Minor Wounds always does full damage against creatures damaged by negative energy.


Zone of Disruption [General]
Prerequisite: Able to cast Able to cast Disrupt Undead. Caster level 3+.
Benefit: When casting Disrupt Undead, instead of making a ranged touch attack, you affect all targets in a five-foot radius. A successful Will save halves the damage. In addition, the damage cap for Disrupt Undead is increased to 10d10 at 19th level. Any undead creatures damaged by the spell who fail their Will save must flee from the caster for 1d4 rounds in the using the fastest means available. If they cannot flee, they cower for the duration, unless they are approached within 10 feet.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 01:32:26 PM by RobbyPants »
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2015, 10:55:12 AM »
I like the idea, but I'm not sure on the individual balance of some of these feats.

Burst of Flame maxes out at 35d6 over five rounds per target hit, not bad for a single feat. Even if enemies are going to put the fire out sooner, that's still quite a utility spell for tunneling and the like. Also possibly better than spells up to about ~4th level (for direct damage).

Cone of Frost could be interpreted as only affecting someone once ever, although that's just a wording quirk. Otherwise, pretty reasonable debuff if it lands.

Corrosive Spray is somewhat ridiculous - a free ability to strip a target of all DR it has, magical or otherwise. It's a perfect BBEG debuffer.

Curing Touch is infinite healing, slowly, but given I allow that normally, I'm not at all against it.

Electric Bolt becomes a nice little debuff, nothing too strong, mostly due to the save DC.

Force Dart strikes me as too weak compared to the others - it's only 1 extra attack unless the PC has switched away from the normal wizard track, or is buffing himself for the purpose of attacks/round. Which is rather unlikely.

Thunderclap is probably the weakest of the debuffs, but still a reasonable feat.

Touch of Pain is a necromancer special - everyone else will find it useless.

Zone of Disruption isn't as good as the others damage feats, because of its limited applicability and because it requires the caster to wade into combat to get the most effectiveness out of it. Much as it's overdone, I might give it a mild turning ability instead to make the undead flee.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2015, 12:25:12 PM »
Burst of Flame maxes out at 35d6 over five rounds per target hit, not bad for a single feat. Even if enemies are going to put the fire out sooner, that's still quite a utility spell for tunneling and the like. Also possibly better than spells up to about ~4th level (for direct damage).
I don't see that damage as too crazy at 19th level, over 6 rounds. Also, I didn't mention other houserules I'm using, which was the basis for the ongoing fire damage. I have all [fire] spells setting targets on fire on a failed save for Xd6 damage for Xd6 rounds, where X is the spell's level. So, a 4th level spell would be +4d6 for 4 rounds. This gets better than that once you hit 19th level, but it's still likely worse than the other effects of a 4th level spell.


Cone of Frost could be interpreted as only affecting someone once ever, although that's just a wording quirk. Otherwise, pretty reasonable debuff if it lands.
Good point. That can be fixed.


Corrosive Spray is somewhat ridiculous - a free ability to strip a target of all DR it has, magical or otherwise. It's a perfect BBEG debuffer.
That was the idea, but I can see it as being pretty strong. Should it allow a save, strip half as much, or what?


Curing Touch is infinite healing, slowly, but given I allow that normally, I'm not at all against it.
That was the idea. CMW is normally at-will healing, up to half HP in my games. I figured, if you were taking a feat for it, you should get something for it. The boost in the amount it heals won't be a big help in combat. It's an improvement, strictly speaking, but you're probably only using it in combat under dire circumstances.


Electric Bolt becomes a nice little debuff, nothing too strong, mostly due to the save DC.
Hmmm... I probably need to state more of my house rules when making these posts. I have all save DCs set at 10 + 1/2 HD + ability mod for everything. I did this for spells to make it so multiclassing was less punitive. It has the side effect of making low level spells effective at higher levels (when they don't run into explicit HD caps).


Force Dart strikes me as too weak compared to the others - it's only 1 extra attack unless the PC has switched away from the normal wizard track, or is buffing himself for the purpose of attacks/round. Which is rather unlikely.
My thought here was for stuff like Sneak Attack. The Acid Splatter reserve feat from CM was talked about for rogues for the same reason (multiple touch attacks per round). That was my thought, here. I agree that it's otherwise pretty weak compared to the others.

I have the option of nixing the multiple attack route and just taking this a different direction. I was trying to keep them all different, so I'm not sure what I'd do. Perhaps a built-in Bull Rush attack, or something?


Thunderclap is probably the weakest of the debuffs, but still a reasonable feat.
It was mostly meant as an anti-caster trick. I think it'd work okay as this, but yeah, it's otherwise weak. Save vs prone would be useful, but maybe too much?


Touch of Pain is a necromancer special - everyone else will find it useless.
Agreed. It was basically just an inverse of Curing Touch. A necromancer might consider taking that and Tomb Tainted Soul.


Zone of Disruption isn't as good as the others damage feats, because of its limited applicability and because it requires the caster to wade into combat to get the most effectiveness out of it. Much as it's overdone, I might give it a mild turning ability instead to make the undead flee.
It doesn't have to be centered on the caster. It'd work okay cast by a cleric or paladin, but it's a Sor/Wiz spell only. How about a 5-foot radius blast like the fire and sonic versions, and the undead flee for 1d4 rounds on a failed Will save?


Thanks for the feedback! :D
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Offline faeryn

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2015, 03:02:40 PM »
Aside from wondering why you opted to create some new 0-level spells instead of keying all of them to existing ones... The idea seems pretty solid... Though I believe it'd work out better should the 0-level spells keep their original effects from the start...

Electric Jolt is a pre-existing 0-level [electricity] cantrip... and it already functions like Ray of Frost but with electric damage...
Flare exists for a 0-level [fire] cantrip... the feat could simply act to add a damage component to the cantrip
Sonic Snap has a decent utility function in it's original form, the feat would work to enhance quite nicely if the cantrip wasn't changed beforehand.

Force is really the only one that was lacking a 0-level cantrip...


Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2015, 07:13:09 AM »
Ahhh, I thought I remembered there being a 0-level electric one somewhere. I'll change Zap to that. Technically Flare and Sonic Snap are different. Granted, flare sucks enough that I never use it. I should also come up with a new name for Sonic Snap, since there's already a spell with that name. Or, I could keep the deafening effect and decrease the damage.

I'll update the OP. Thanks!
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2015, 02:27:42 PM »
I don't see that damage as too crazy at 19th level, over 6 rounds. Also, I didn't mention other houserules I'm using, which was the basis for the ongoing fire damage. I have all [fire] spells setting targets on fire on a failed save for Xd6 damage for Xd6 rounds, where X is the spell's level. So, a 4th level spell would be +4d6 for 4 rounds. This gets better than that once you hit 19th level, but it's still likely worse than the other effects of a 4th level spell.

You're trying to catch up to me in number of house rules. This is rather impressive :D. That also makes the damage more understandable, and more in line with your table. I could see this being more in line with the other feats by having a dazzle/blindness secondary, though.

Quote
That was the idea, but I can see it as being pretty strong. Should it allow a save, strip half as much, or what?

I would probably cut it in half. Right now, it's the perfect set-up ability for TWF/Nibblers, since it allows them to stack damage with all of their attacks, rather than just one massive one. On the other hand, all it does is make that character type more useful vs an ubercharger, who doesn't care about DR at all.

Quote
Hmmm... I probably need to state more of my house rules when making these posts. I have all save DCs set at 10 + 1/2 HD + ability mod for everything. I did this for spells to make it so multiclassing was less punitive. It has the side effect of making low level spells effective at higher levels (when they don't run into explicit HD caps).

That strikes me as a little odd that Flare and Wail of the Banshee have the same DC... Strips away some of the importance of higher level spells. It also makes these fairly useful as permanent "free" BFC/SoS, which are generally considered the strongest wizard abilities anyway.

Quote
My thought here was for stuff like Sneak Attack. The Acid Splatter reserve feat from CM was talked about for rogues for the same reason (multiple touch attacks per round). That was my thought, here. I agree that it's otherwise pretty weak compared to the others.

I have the option of nixing the multiple attack route and just taking this a different direction. I was trying to keep them all different, so I'm not sure what I'd do. Perhaps a built-in Bull Rush attack, or something?

You could go down the telekinses route, or you could make the number of attacks scale more like magic missile. Is it possible under your houserules to stack enough BAB/Sneak Attack to make this a worthwhile ability?

Quote
It was mostly meant as an anti-caster trick. I think it'd work okay as this, but yeah, it's otherwise weak. Save vs prone would be useful, but maybe too much?

Save vs Staggered, maybe? That'd be a pretty strong debuff though, since few living creatures resist that condition.

Quote
It doesn't have to be centered on the caster. It'd work okay cast by a cleric or paladin, but it's a Sor/Wiz spell only. How about a 5-foot radius blast like the fire and sonic versions, and the undead flee for 1d4 rounds on a failed Will save?

I like the suggestion. It seems appropriate for a boosted disrupt undead.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2015, 07:42:08 AM »
You're trying to catch up to me in number of house rules. This is rather impressive :D.
Yeah, they're pretty extensive, and that list isn't complete, or even fully up to date.


I would probably cut it in half. Right now, it's the perfect set-up ability for TWF/Nibblers, since it allows them to stack damage with all of their attacks, rather than just one massive one. On the other hand, all it does is make that character type more useful vs an ubercharger, who doesn't care about DR at all.
Okay. I updated it in the OP.


That strikes me as a little odd that Flare and Wail of the Banshee have the same DC... Strips away some of the importance of higher level spells. It also makes these fairly useful as permanent "free" BFC/SoS, which are generally considered the strongest wizard abilities anyway.
It does make them the same, but most of the higher level spells will
  • Have more powerful status effects.
  • Have longer ranges.
  • Have larger areas.
  • Offer fewer ways to resist.
  • Have higher damage caps.
  • Have higher HD caps on their effects.
, or several of these.

And yes, this is a broadly-applied house rule, which means it will have some odd side-effects on some of the published materials. There are probably several low-level spells that have really nasty effects that would be quite usable at 20th level, but those are mostly the exception, not the rule.



...On a side note, I might be able to have my cake and eat it too, with that house rule. If my goal is to help those who are multiclassed without buffing straight-classed casters, I can use the base save DC I described earlier, and then apply a penalty to the DC for each level the spell is lower than the highest level you can cast. This would mean that an Int 26 Wizard 18 casting a 9th level spell would have a DC of 27 (10 + 9 + 8), but his 5th level spells would have a DC of 23, and his 1st levels would have a DC of 19. Comparatively, an Int 26 Fighter 9/Wizard 9 casting 5th level spells would have a DC of 27, but his 1st level spells would be DC 23.

This satisfies both keeping the caster's best spells level-appropriate on the RNG and keeps high-level spells better than low-level spells. The cost is a slight increase in complexity, but not really any more complex than the base system in the PHB (using spell level to seed the DC).



You could go down the telekinses route, or you could make the number of attacks scale more like magic missile. Is it possible under your houserules to stack enough BAB/Sneak Attack to make this a worthwhile ability?
What do you mean by going the "telekinesis route"? The trips/bull rushes?

With my house rules, a rogue could be casting Force Bolt for a feat (so, no multiclassing). So, a straight-classed rogue could progress at 3/4 BAB and full SA. Nothing crazy, but at 20th level, it'd be three bolts for 10d3+10d6 each. It'd be another approach at a flask rogue that would deal less damage, but wouldn't have to worry about carrying 100 flasks, acid/fire immunity, and could hit incorporeal creatures.

I've never personally delved into the feat rogue/sneak attack fighter variants, but strictly speaking, a SA-fighter could get a 4th attack with all of this.

It's not powerful enough that I'd be worried, but I'm assuming your concern is more of if this is even worth taking?


Save vs Staggered, maybe? That'd be a pretty strong debuff though, since few living creatures resist that condition.
Staggered seems a bit much. And, it's not that Sonic Snap has to be an anti-caster spell, but staggered hurts non-casters more.


I like the suggestion. It seems appropriate for a boosted disrupt undead.
Thanks. I updated the OP. I'm hoping an at-will, short-range, damage dealing "mini turn" doesn't obviate the Cleric's class feature. Of course, everyone always uses those Turn attempts for other uses, anyway, but still...
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2015, 10:14:54 AM »
I like the house rule adjustment with regards to DCs. It causes a little bit more calculation at the table, but is hardly going to be problematic. And it still favours using upper level abilities.

Telekinesis - bullrushes, trips, making someone levitate. If an NPC has no form of flying movement, levitating them can be a real pain in the backside. And my concerns were more just about the usefulness of the ability - plain direct damage on a caster type is usually the worst thing they can do, which is why the other feats having debuff riders was a nice change.

Sonic Snap - Maybe try making them mute? I've got an ability or two that does that. The only other conditions I can see applying are Checked or possibly Shaken, without going into straight SoD territory like Stunned or Dazed.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2015, 07:38:51 AM »
Telekinesis - bullrushes, trips, making someone levitate. If an NPC has no form of flying movement, levitating them can be a real pain in the backside. And my concerns were more just about the usefulness of the ability - plain direct damage on a caster type is usually the worst thing they can do, which is why the other feats having debuff riders was a nice change.
My only hesitation with something like levitation is that this is a rider on an orb of force. I'd figure a knockback/knockdown effect might be best.

Now, all the others have AoEs. If I'm going away from this being the multi-attack spell, then I should probably give it a 5-ft radius burst, too. Perhaps a save vs being pushed 5 ft from the center and ending up prone? Large and larger creatures get +4 to the save, and small and smaller creatures get -4.

Alternately, it could be a cone that pushes people away from the caster. Thoughts?


Sonic Snap - Maybe try making them mute? I've got an ability or two that does that. The only other conditions I can see applying are Checked or possibly Shaken, without going into straight SoD territory like Stunned or Dazed.
Deafening wrecks casting with verbal components 20% of the time, which is sort of the same thing. None of the other effects fully shut anyone down from something important (well, apart from undead fleeing with Disrupt Undead). This could be another candidate for prone (there are other sonic spells that do that). If I go this route, I'd probably want to modify Force Orb to just a straight up Bull Rush with a larger range (5ft more per 5ft of a failed save?).
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2015, 08:58:12 AM »
In that case, I'd probably go multiple attacks with pushback for force and AoE prone for sonic.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2015, 09:58:40 AM »
In that case, I'd probably go multiple attacks with pushback for force and AoE prone for sonic.
I can see multiple pushback attacks quickly pushing the opponent beyond Close range.

I'm not entirely against the multiple attacks for Force Bolt. Given the light damage, I could see extending the range to Medium for utility. I can't really see any other statuses I'd want to use for [force]. I'm having difficulty thinking of any useful effects, apart from affecting incorporeal targets. Maybe ignoring hardness of objects?
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2015, 10:35:06 AM »
Acid already does the ignoring hardness thing though, as does sonic (usually).

And is pushing an opponent out of range really a bad thing? You can use it to shove them into the AoO radius of a melee ally, or into a flank, etc., which I think is useful enough regardless of whether you can occasionally shove them a little too far to hit with the follow-up.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2015, 10:45:31 AM »
Acid already does the ignoring hardness thing though, as does sonic (usually).
Oh, you're right. I missed that they don't apply hardness, whereas the other types do.

So, the force bolts are only in Close range, you make one per attack, and each does a Bull Rush using your casting stat in place of Str, or what?
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2015, 10:55:35 AM »
I'd just grab the combat maneuver text straight out of Telekinesis, and make it voluntary whether the caster wants to use it or not.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2015, 12:59:50 PM »
That's normally allowed once per round, with the spell. I'm not sure I should be doing it multiple times a round.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2015, 01:35:56 PM »
I updated the OP with Thunderclap to drop the deafening back down to one round, but add in the prone effect. I removed the blurb I was contemplating about +/-4 save adjustment due to size, because 1/2 damage and avoiding the deafening effect are also riding on this save.

I haven't updated Force Dart yet, because I'm not sure if I want to allow more than one maneuver per round. Alternately, I could make it be Force Blast, and hit everyone within a cone for damage or be pushed back/prone. I kind of prefer the cone idea, honestly.
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Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2015, 05:12:23 AM »
You noted that you use some house rules. I think those are important to disclose beforehand so that we all be on the same page. For example - I hate using the cantrips are free/at-will house rule. It changes the class's inner workings so immensely. Yet, I do still grant a free reserve feat to arcanists because I think it's important to give them something to do every round.
It was actually pointed by Eldritch_Lord and faeryn that a good way to treat spellcasters is by changing the spells so that they are no longer fire and forget. In effect, making all of them at will. But I digress.

Regarding your actual work: I dislike it.  :pout
Sorry, but I really do.
It's not because it is unbalanced or because of a personal thing (In fact, I think it is very well thought out, mechanically sound and well presented!). What flips me off is the dependency on feat "slots". Spellcasters (especially wizards and sorcerers) have already so much that they need, and want, to cram into those oh so precious feats. That's why I grant one reserve for free.

 :D

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2015, 07:47:16 AM »
You noted that you use some house rules. I think those are important to disclose beforehand so that we all be on the same page.
That's fair, although I tried to list just the ones I thought would be relevant. The following list is about everything I've put on here, and it's not a complete list. Most of it would be off topic for the idea of these feats:

House-rules
Character creation (Rules on point buy, races, and base classes)
Skill Feats (A boost to the crappy +2/+2 skill feats. Inteneded to be given out for free to non-casters as well, to help fighters (and their friends) have nice things.)
Combat & Feats (A few revised combat rules and a lot of revised feats. Also, some new feats at the end.)
Heritage Feats for Sorcerers (I put this here since the feats are based on the power-level of the other feats.)
Alignment and Exalted/Vile Feats (Some general changes to alignment and some new/modified feats and vows.)
New Special Material Rules (Improved adamantine, mithril, etc)
Magic and Spells (Rules on casting times, boosts to Evocation, and some modifications to spells.)
New/Modified Invocations (New and modified warlock invocations)
Revised Maneuver List (Some new maneuvers, but mostly shifting the levels around of existing ones.)
Crafting, Bonuses, and WBL (Modified magic item crafting rules, free bonuses to d20 rolls, and generally removing WBL.)


What flips me off is the dependency on feat "slots". Spellcasters (especially wizards and sorcerers) have already so much that they need, and want, to cram into those oh so precious feats.
What do wizards and sorcerers "need" for feats. I was under the impression that they're pretty solid as-is with their spellcasting. The feats are icing on an already awesome cake. The only mandatory feat I know of is Natural Spell for druids.
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Offline Bronzebeard

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Re: New take on Reserve Feats
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2015, 09:15:12 AM »
What do wizards and sorcerers "need" for feats. I was under the impression that they're pretty solid as-is with their spellcasting. The feats are icing on an already awesome cake. The only mandatory feat I know of is Natural Spell for druids.

Well, it depends on your build - but some major milestones include "Augment Summoning" for summoners. There are alternative feats for other schools. Combat casting is great. Improved Initiative and/or Spell Penetration is pretty crucial. Both Metamagic feats and Item creation are quite common. Improved Familiar is handy. PrC's will more then likely require some feats (like Spell Focus or spell mastery). I can even see Point Blank Shot being utilized.

Again, it depends on your build.