Author Topic: Discussion & Feedback  (Read 30830 times)

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #80 on: July 28, 2013, 01:25:11 AM »
I just had an interesting idea for a feat.

Blood-Linked Summoning [Ritual]
Prerequisites: Bloodstained Ritual, ability to trace any Ritual of Blood Summoning
Benefits: While one or more creatures summoned by your Ritual of Blood Summoning remain, the bond you have with them as their summoner is enhanced, protecting you. Half of all damage you would otherwise suffer is redirected to your summoned creatures (as per the shield other spell), divided as you choose among them should you have multiple such creatures summoned at once. You also gain a deflection bonus to AC and a resistance bonus to saves based on the ritual's grade. You cannot redirect more total damage in this way to the creatures from a given Ritual of Blood Summoning than half the number of hit points spent to summon them, after which the deflection and resistance bonuses are also removed.
Ritual GradeDeflection Bonus to Armor ClassResistance Bonus to Saving Throws
Minor+1+1
Least+2+2
Lesser+3+3
Greater+4+4
Advanced+5+5

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #81 on: July 28, 2013, 07:06:00 AM »
I just had an interesting idea for a feat.

Blood-Linked Summoning [Ritual]
Prerequisites: Bloodstained Ritual, ability to trace any Ritual of Blood Summoning
Benefits: While one or more creatures summoned by your Ritual of Blood Summoning remain, the bond you have with them as their summoner is enhanced, protecting you. Half of all damage you would otherwise suffer is redirected to your summoned creatures (as per the shield other spell), divided as you choose among them should you have multiple such creatures summoned at once. You also gain a deflection bonus to AC and a resistance bonus to saves based on the ritual's grade. You cannot redirect more total damage in this way to the creatures from a given Ritual of Blood Summoning than half the number of hit points spent to summon them, after which the deflection and resistance bonuses are also removed.
Ritual GradeDeflection Bonus to Armor ClassResistance Bonus to Saving Throws
Minor+1+1
Least+2+2
Lesser+3+3
Greater+4+4
Advanced+5+5

Cool beans! I'll add it.  I'll add Glyphchanter, as well... forgot to port it.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #82 on: July 28, 2013, 10:21:47 AM »
I haven't read through the Glyphchanter yet, but since I still seem to have mod privileges for this board, I modified it myself to get rid of the bbcode errors in the tables rather than bugging you about it Sirp. A couple of row tags were incorrect.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #83 on: July 28, 2013, 01:24:46 PM »
I haven't read through the Glyphchanter yet, but since I still seem to have mod privileges for this board, I modified it myself to get rid of the bbcode errors in the tables rather than bugging you about it Sirp. A couple of row tags were incorrect.
Why thank you good sir.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #84 on: July 28, 2013, 08:23:34 PM »
I'm thinking about rewriting significant parts of this system. There are enough things that don't quite work out as I'd like them that it's got the gears in my brain turning. If I get anything significant and useful, would you be interested if I ran the ideas by you, Sirp? Some of what I'm thinking about involves pretty significant divergences from the existing mechanics. I don't expect you to rewrite the whole thing, of course. I'm expecting any such rewriting to be either for personal use or for an alternate version of the ritual system side-by-side with the original.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #85 on: July 28, 2013, 08:36:24 PM »
Well, first of all check against the updated version on gitp. Other than that, I'm happy to hear your changes, and if they look better we could just make them official.
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #86 on: July 28, 2013, 08:56:04 PM »
I also still have the intention of porting all updates from GitP over to here. That task just keeps getting superseded by others.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #87 on: July 28, 2013, 09:01:56 PM »
Do you have a link to the GitP version of the ritual material?
Edit: Nevermind, found it.

The changes I'm planning on proposing are pretty significant. It's not just a few alterations here and there. It's major changes to the core mechanics and major rewrites to most, if not all, of the existing rituals and classes.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #88 on: July 28, 2013, 09:18:04 PM »
Do you have a link to the GitP version of the ritual material?
Edit: Nevermind, found it.

The changes I'm planning on proposing are pretty significant. It's not just a few alterations here and there. It's major changes to the core mechanics and major rewrites to most, if not all, of the existing rituals and classes.

The Great Ritual Schism of 2013 commences...  :tongue

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #89 on: July 28, 2013, 09:52:04 PM »
Here are some notes to start you off, so you can get a sense of what I'm looking to do.
(click to show/hide)

And the Ritualist class table.
(click to show/hide)

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #90 on: July 28, 2013, 10:09:14 PM »
Other than suggesting that the dead levels for the ritualist get filled in with something else to do, I actually really like your changes. It feels much more... developed as a system.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #91 on: July 28, 2013, 10:29:04 PM »
Well, yeah, what do you expect? This is the result of multiple years of thought gestating in my subconscious and some actual playtesting that I've done (thanks again for Sorrel in Augury). The original ritual system that we have here was built from something that wasn't designed to support its scope (the Ritual Warrior/Expert/Mage classes), and was done by people who were far less experienced (us, 2 years or so ago).

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #92 on: July 28, 2013, 10:33:13 PM »
I don't mind a massive overhaul of the system. I've been worried about it, actually.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #93 on: July 28, 2013, 11:13:29 PM »
Here are some rewritten rituals. I'm starting in alphabetical order.

Rituals
Each ritual indicates the grade or grades at which it can be traced. A ritual can be traced in a higher grade ritual slot than the grade of effects it produces, but this provides no additional benefits to the ritual's effects. Grade-dependent effects, such as the ritual's save DC and effective spell level when released, will be increased by the higher grade, even if the ritual itself does not provide any increased effects. A ritual cannot be traced at a lower grade than its minimum for which it has a listed effect, however.


Allied Covenant
(click to show/hide)


Annihilation Zone
(click to show/hide)


Call of the Undying Warrior
(click to show/hide)


Circle of Agony
(click to show/hide)


Circle of Blood
(click to show/hide)


Circle of Chaos
(click to show/hide)

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #94 on: July 28, 2013, 11:22:23 PM »
Can I suggest that we ask Prime to create a sub-board of this which we can stick the entire original system in [EDIT](or vice versa)[/EDIT]? It will definitely make things neater, and I really don't want to lose the old one while I'm still playing Ror, because, looking at your proposed changes, Garryl, while I like the way they're headed, it would definitely be a huge headache to convert him at this point.

...and that's an interesting sentence, structurally...

(There's a good chance I will convert Ror at some point, but certainly not until everything is fleshed out.)

EDIT:
For Rituals with Duration: Traced, would/could they also have an effect when discharged? Or only while Traced? And Rituals can theoretically stay Traced forever, rather than only 24hrs? With the only detriment being that they take up a slot.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 12:50:03 AM by FireInTheSky »

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #95 on: July 29, 2013, 12:50:47 AM »
Oh, on a side note, the number of known rituals for classes that only know a limited number, such as Glyphwalkers, can be decreased somewhat with my proposed changes, as they will only have to learn a given ritual once, rather than once per grade.

I'm doing a quick pass through the rituals right now, looking for what needs changing and where things need to be added. I'm about 1/2 of the way through right now. There are a lot of funny things going on with rituals that need a-fixin', IMO. Also, with the proposed addition of rote-grade rituals, some actual rituals with rote effects need to be added, naturally.

I'm going to look at the other base classes now (probably Bloodfire Seeker, followed by the Witchblood and Glyphwalker). FITS, Sirp, do either of you have any ideas for the Ritualist dead levels?

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #96 on: July 29, 2013, 01:20:00 AM »
I'm doing a quick pass through the rituals right now, looking for what needs changing and where things need to be added. I'm about 1/2 of the way through right now. There are a lot of funny things going on with rituals that need a-fixin', IMO. Also, with the proposed addition of rote-grade rituals, some actual rituals with rote effects need to be added, naturally.

My guess is that some minor-grade effects will actually be rote-grade as is, possibly with everything scaling up slightly. Also, you mentioned epic. Are you thinking those will be completely different rituals, or just scaled-up advanced versions? (Presumably it will be some of both).

Quote
I'm going to look at the other base classes now (probably Bloodfire Seeker, followed by the Witchblood and Glyphwalker). FITS, Sirp, do either of you have any ideas for the Ritualist dead levels?

Well, some of them could just be bonus Metaritual feats. Speaking of which, presumably they'll just bump a ritual up x number of grades. So a maximized lesser ritual takes up a greater ritual slot. A quickened lesser ritual takes up an advanced ritual slot, or maybe a least takes up an advanced, and you can't quicken lesser+ pre-epic (FWIW, both options are significantly less powerful than current mechanics).

There's also the Blood Magic ACF.

For Bloodfire Seekers, will Bloodfused Rituals only be rituals that have a duration of Traced? If not, and they can fuse other rituals, that's a potential source of Ritualist abilities. Meaning, maybe you can have a ritual with a duration of Traced that doesn't count against your slots (kind of replacing the old Ritual Focus ability).

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #97 on: July 29, 2013, 02:12:08 AM »
First re-draft of Bloodfire Seeker.
(click to show/hide)

I'm doing a quick pass through the rituals right now, looking for what needs changing and where things need to be added. I'm about 1/2 of the way through right now. There are a lot of funny things going on with rituals that need a-fixin', IMO. Also, with the proposed addition of rote-grade rituals, some actual rituals with rote effects need to be added, naturally.

My guess is that some minor-grade effects will actually be rote-grade as is, possibly with everything scaling up slightly. Also, you mentioned epic. Are you thinking those will be completely different rituals, or just scaled-up advanced versions? (Presumably it will be some of both).

Epic was thrown in there for 2 reasons.
1) Sirp has mentioned epic rituals in his and MM's Jewel of a Quest game, so he obviously has/had some ideas to fill in my blanks.
2) It's always good to be prepared for future expansion.

I, too, expect that epic rituals will be "some of both", as you say. As part of my proposed changes, a lot of greater and advanced rituals are getting scaled down, and some of the effects being removed certainly seem appropriate for epic play. And then, of course, it's epic levels with epic effects, so there will be a whole slew of crazy-ass abilities being thrown around on top of that.

Quote
Quote
I'm going to look at the other base classes now (probably Bloodfire Seeker, followed by the Witchblood and Glyphwalker). FITS, Sirp, do either of you have any ideas for the Ritualist dead levels?

Well, some of them could just be bonus Metaritual feats. Speaking of which, presumably they'll just bump a ritual up x number of grades. So a maximized lesser ritual takes up a greater ritual slot. A quickened lesser ritual takes up an advanced ritual slot, or maybe a least takes up an advanced, and you can't quicken lesser+ pre-epic (FWIW, both options are significantly less powerful than current mechanics).

There's also the Blood Magic ACF.

The original Ritualist got bonus feats. I took them out in the above draft not for any power issues, but because I wanted a sense of the class without them, then I couldn't quite fit them in neatly, and then kinda forgot about putting them back in altogether.

Quote
For Bloodfire Seekers, will Bloodfused Rituals only be rituals that have a duration of Traced? If not, and they can fuse other rituals, that's a potential source of Ritualist abilities. Meaning, maybe you can have a ritual with a duration of Traced that doesn't count against your slots (kind of replacing the old Ritual Focus ability).

Note that the original Bloodfused Ritual ability was, essentially, the same as the old Ritual Focus ability (except a little more open at the cost of Con damage and 8 hours tracing/casting time). The proposed replacement in the draft above is sort of the same thing as what you're suggesting (by which I mean I scrapped what I'd already written when I read this because your idea was much better). Bloodfire Seekers still get to play around with their more limited number of traced rituals on top of that, although unlike Ritualists and Witchbloods, they won't be getting the Rapid Retracing ability that makes released rituals sort of like per-encounter abilities instead of daily.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #98 on: July 29, 2013, 02:43:10 AM »
Hey, what do you think of something like this for the Witchblood, replacing most of the existing class features (but possibly keeping the bonus Bloodstained Ritual/Sacrificial Ritual feat chain)? Some of the curses would need to be altered, of course. Y'see, I was thinking about Evil Eye and Dark Whispers, and combining them together into a shared anti-Bardic Music-type ability, and then I realized I had one already written, hee hee!

Edit: Screw it, I'm writing it up like that. Dark Shepherd might be an ACF/Variant?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 03:05:10 AM by Garryl »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion & Feedback
« Reply #99 on: July 29, 2013, 06:19:08 AM »
Gah, so much after I went to bed!

Re: Call of the Undying Warrior, is that a difference between discharged and released? I think it is, just making sure.

I'm ok with making a sub-board, that's a good idea (to preserve the old stuff).

Re: Ritualist dead levels, both R and GW have the problem of what to do with their standard actions (BS attack things, WB debuff things). My suggestion is to give Ritualist a Reserve Feat-style attack based on what they have traced. Not sure what to do with GW yet.

I like your rewrites so far, including the WB rewrite, and yes Dark Shepherd could be an ACF.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.