Author Topic: Niche Rating for Classes Discussion  (Read 2267 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Niche Rating for Classes Discussion
« on: December 31, 2015, 11:46:00 PM »
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11843 is the original. Yes I'm aware its not in the handbooks forum yet. I am also aware I double some BFC entries. I'll move it when people start helping. If that happens, I'll look over the original comments.

Format. Please post all proposed changes in tabular format so that I can quickly analyze what you what. That, and I can lazily copy and paste without having to parse things myself. Just quote me and adjust the numbers if you don't understand the formatting.
Bad example: Q: "I think Fighter should have 1 higher in scouting?" A: "I refuse to reparse things. Print a table row, please."
Good example: Q: "
ClassMeleeRangeMoveTankScoutTrapsBuffHealBFCUtilityIntelFaceDominateSoDDebuffStealSummonPanicAvg
Fighter234355564565564665x.xx
" A: updated.

Make sense?

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Niche Rating for Classes Discussion
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2016, 10:18:36 PM »
Very interesting way to put things :-)
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Offline eggynack

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Re: Niche Rating for Classes Discussion
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2016, 03:47:22 PM »
Weird suggestion, but it may be worth deleting the... 18th column, I guess? Y'know, summoning in its entirety. I've always thought it was more of a method of filling niches than a niche in and of itself, ever since the original original thread. Might require more thinkery than more standard, "Alter this number," changes, but it's worth considering. As is, the system kinda double counts stuff like meat shield, battlefield control, or even occasionally healing or domination. Y'know, all that stuff that summoning does.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Niche Rating for Classes Discussion
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2016, 11:24:30 AM »
I have considered that. There are 2 things that kept it in:

A) DMs who wish for 3e to be balanced, won't allow SLAs on summons (see my complete 3e fixes). This means summons won't heal/dominate/BFC, etc right out of the gate.
B) whiles summoning does provide some DPS and some tanking, it does those by creating additional allies/targets for enemies. This is not the case when a party member simply cranks up their damage or HP.

Feel free to paraphrase the previous threads' comments, if you'd like.

Offline eggynack

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Re: Niche Rating for Classes Discussion
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2016, 12:01:52 PM »
A) DMs who wish for 3e to be balanced, won't allow SLAs on summons (see my complete 3e fixes). This means summons won't heal/dominate/BFC, etc right out of the gate.
I don't think it makes much sense to do these assessments in what is effectively a house ruled environment.

Quote
B) whiles summoning does provide some DPS and some tanking, it does those by creating additional allies/targets for enemies. This is not the case when a party member simply cranks up their damage or HP.
There's definitely some unique ground covered by summoning, what you've mentioned in addition to the action economy benefit. I suppose my big issue is that the unique region for summoning was never especially well established, and evaluations were never done on the basis of that well established niche. One solution, then, could be to do the rankings in what is essentially the environment you posited in that first quote, but because those abilities fall more into other niches, rather than because they don't exist. So, for example, unicorn summoning would fall mostly under healing and maybe buffing, and a relatively small amount of its existence would fall into summoning itself.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Niche Rating for Classes Discussion
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2016, 01:16:07 AM »
for example, unicorn summoning would fall mostly under healing and maybe buffing, and a relatively small amount of its existence would fall into summoning itself.
I'm fine with that.

What I was trying to avoid was the "I can cast ice assassin, so I can do anything" kind of loopiness that simply never sees play. Maybe if your DM is tippy, you could do that, but most DMs frown at summoning mirror mephits. I hope you see where I'm coming from. I will try to consider the RAW more heavily in that area, though. Feel free to glance over the summoning column and post some adjustments for me.