Author Topic: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game  (Read 8437 times)

Offline Kerrus

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I used to be really familiar with 3.5, but five years of not playing it regularly means most of that information has dribbled out of my ears. I generally like to think I have good instincts for character design, but these days I'm more familiar with other game systems.

That's why I wanted to get some help making a well optimized character for this game.

Anyways, the only thing I really know about the game is that it will be gothic horror themed- but not necessarily all undead and vampires and the like. I've talked with the GM, and any official 3.5 sourcebook or Dragon Magazine content is acceptable for character building. I don't know what the party composition is going to be- I haven't played with the other players in a D&D game in a long time, but at least one of them is likely to run some sort of melee fighty character (mainly because he never runs anything else).

I don't know that I'll need to fill the rogue/face role entirely, but for now it's a good bet that I'll want to keep things like trapfinding.


My character concept is pretty vague at the moment, the only real details I have down is that I want to be a race with some sort of alternate form. Maybe Hengeyokai, maybe a Tibbit, and that the character will be some sort of 'traveler from foreign lands investigating mysteries'.

Not entirely sure what I want for combat options- obviously maximizing sneak attack is a good idea, but I'm not sure if I should try to invest heavily in TWF, or ranged, or multiclass, or whatever. I know Master Spellthief exists, and there's a number of rogue feats for stacking sneak attack progression that I could probably convince the DM to make applicable based on the sneak attack feature.

The game starts at level 1.

Optimization doesn't have to be purely for combat, but I'm definitely leaning towards taking one of those 'only at level 1' feats that are often so useful :p

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Offline Nifft

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2016, 10:24:08 PM »
Spellthief 1 / Wizard X with the Master Spellthief feat? (Otherwise I don't have many nice things to say about Spellthief.)

Then progress into Unseen Seer, for skill points and Sneak Attack advancement.

Offline faeryn

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2016, 01:45:18 AM »
Spellthieves are fun... Nifft has a pretty decent suggestion... however you really should get Spellthief 2/Wizard X... Steal Spell Effect is a valuable ability to have, to valuable to skip out on honestly. Sacrifice 1d6 SA to steal an active spell effect from an enemy? yes please... Fighting someone who's using Mage Armor? not any more, it's now your mage armor.

Daggerspell mage is a nice prC if you choose to go two-weapon daggers...

Arcane Trickster is also good for getting SA dice, class features however are rather lacking... so use it just to fill out your remaining levels after Unseen Seer if you don't go with two-weapon daggers...


You can also take the build route I used for my spellthief... Spellthief 2/Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge X and pick up Hunter's Eye as an Archivist, and pump your Divine CL up as high as possible...

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2016, 12:26:09 PM »
Spellthief 1 / Wizard X with the Master Spellthief feat? (Otherwise I don't have many nice things to say about Spellthief.)

Then progress into Unseen Seer, for skill points and Sneak Attack advancement.
I'm having great fun with such a character now. I am going for a 3 level incantatrix dip also, for Persistent spell shenanigans, though.

I'd definitely avoid losing more caster levels, though. The second level of Spellthief isn't worth it, nor would I ever advocate using something like Mystic Theurge...

I could PM you the character build, but I don't want to post it publicly due to the nature of the game it's in...
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Offline Kerrus

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2016, 06:00:02 PM »
Thanks, I sort of expected these sorts of suggestions, but I'm not super inclined to just be 'wizard who steals spells'- I was thinking more along the lines of, say, going Spellthief 2/Duskblade X/Prc Y- and so on, building a fighty character who takes advantage of arcane strike, spell storing weapons, and steal spell to deliver spells on attacks.

Offline Arz

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2016, 06:31:03 PM »
Read my sig...

As for race, steal humanoid shape whenever needed. Admittedly a somewhat higher level option but works well with unlimited disguise self.

Also check back on that, because I see I've forgotten some edits there.  :banghead
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 07:15:48 PM by Arz »

Offline Kerrus

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2016, 06:54:12 PM »
Thanks, I'll look it over.

Also, I forgot to mention, but we're using 32 point buy (stats start at level 8) for stats. Not sure how I should allocate that, guess it depends on what my 'main non spellthief' class ends up being.

EDIT: Hmm, you know, I think I'm just gonna be a spellthief, rather than designing for some high level interaction of whatever. Charisma, dex, con. Hengeyokai or human. Thinking about Craven or Intimidating Strike for my level 1 feat. Encounter long debuffs are pretty strong at early levels.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 08:07:24 PM by Kerrus »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2016, 12:24:22 PM »
Staggering Strike is devastating, once you can meet the BAB requirement. Alter Self is a crazy good buff someone told me. :P
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 12:26:22 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline faeryn

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2016, 11:07:35 PM »
Arz your guide makes me want to make a Tibbit Spellthief with a wizard cohort and pretend to be their familiar in the next campaign I play in...

*plots a plan to get her DnD group away from Savage Worlds and back to DnD*
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 11:09:24 PM by faeryn »

Offline Arz

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2016, 07:21:21 PM »
Phaerimm are really the kings of cohorts for spellthieves. I can see the appeal of tibbits, but functionally an extra feat or SLAs are best.

...and really sorry still looking for backup files off an old comp for that handbook.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 07:25:15 PM by Arz »

Offline Kerrus

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2016, 01:22:40 AM »
After going through some sample builds, I've ended up with a very rough plan which involves being some sort of horrible combination of going Spellthief 1 / Bard 9 / Bard PrC 10, using a bow and stealth build on a dex/cha focused super elf (Lesser Celadrin).

Basically all variant rules are permissible, so currently I have an LA+1 race that's now LA+0 because of a wacky variant in the player's guide to faerun giving me all the elf bonuses, resist fire 10, +2 dex, +2 cha, -2 con, and 1/day scorching ray, and a racial bonus to perform checks and I'm planning a stealthy sniper build that volley fires arrows to steal shitloads of spells from enemies.

The party from what I know is currently two unknowns, me, and a focused specialist transmuter wizard. I'm gonna be really annoyed if I end up expected to be the party healer.

EDIT: Just swapped rapid shot (I have a flaw) for Charming the Arrow. I still need dex for stealth, but being able to have cha as my primary attribute makes advancement work much better. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 01:42:07 AM by Kerrus »

Offline faeryn

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2016, 02:15:07 AM »
>.< I ended up as the party healer on my spellthief in my last campaign... our clerics kept vanishing... it's actually the whole reason I ended up with Archivist & Mystic Theurge in the first place...

But anyways just convince the party that your a magically inclined rogue with a knack for music... they won't expect anything other than roguish antics from you then...

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2016, 01:19:43 PM »
Get the party to pitch in for wands of Lesser Vigor (or Faith Healing, if you all worship the same deity), and Healing Belts (MiC). That's about all the healing you typically need. In-combat healing is generally a waste of an action, and your resources are better spent on other ways to avoid damage and/or kill the bad guys before they kill you. Also get them to pitch in on a scroll each of Revenance and Revivify, just in case someone does get dropped in combat... It's a cheap way to bring them back without a level loss.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline Arz

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2016, 12:04:47 PM »
Okay finished that update so...

Check out my ranged and tainted builds. Normally the later won't fly since taint rules are ...ugh. Both are varients of trigger, since spellthieves are just that efficient with wands.

Also, never really got much good feedback when I originally posted this, so I would like anything other than master spellthief commentary. Because I've heard way too much of that.

Offline Kerrus

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2016, 12:36:33 AM »
Well, good news is that the party composition includes a healer.

Current party is a little wacky, but should be workable.

Players include:

Stealth Archer Spellthief (Me)
Guy Who Makes Bad Spell Choices Focused Specialist Transmuter Wizard
No Idea How Swordsages Work Swordsage
Playing My Character From Another Game Favored Soul

No, we do not have a tank, and the GM doesn't intend to hand hold or assign us an NPC. Yes I am going to be hiding all the time because holy shit we all gonna die.

EDIT: We have a temporary tank. I shelled out the 10 gp to start the game with a Pig. 31 HP, Ferocity- and I took a rank in profession cooking so if/when it dies, I can turn its corpse into food to sell for a bunch of gp to use to hire us a goddamn tank. Or just get another pig. Also he carries all my shit cause I have strength 8.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 01:04:33 AM by Kerrus »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2016, 06:44:01 PM »
At level 1, no one is the tank. Even barbarians are squishy. Everyone should have a ranged weapon, a mount (mules are cheap as dirt, and nearly as good as warhorses), and be willing to flee at the first sign of real danger. :P
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Offline altpersona

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2016, 07:31:53 PM »
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Offline Kerrus

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2016, 10:24:08 PM »
So, had our first session today. Lots of frivolous time wasters, half the party didn't have their backstories done, and two thirds of our time doing shit was spent on actually having the party get together.

In the midst of all of this, I have become Gilderoy Lockhart.

Basically for my character's backstory, he's royal blood- but a thief seduced him and stole his coronation treasure, a planar touchstone used in a ritual to fully awaken the royal bloodline. Faced with disgrace, he set off on an expedition to recover the stolen item, and has been away from his ancestral lands for four or five years. In that time he made little headway- but recently located the Thief who stole the item, and seduced the information out of the guy- that he was hired by a noble of the kingdom to steal the item and that guy still has it.

Not enough details to know which noble, or whether it was the elven kingdom or the nearby human one, but enough to know that it's probably still in his homeland area.

This is relevant to game play because it means several things.

First, he's incognito. He caused all sorts of problems when he 'temporarily abdicated', including a regent assuming charge for the next heir in line, a cousin too young to inherit- and unable to fulfill the ritual because no planar touchstone. Three guesses who hired the thief and the first two don't count.

So he's on the hook for booking it, and the masses don't know that his shit was stolen- they think he was a laze hooligan who ran off rather than assume the kingship.

Next, if he gets identified, whichever party behind the theft will probably try to have him killed, and as a level one elf with more points in charisma than wisdom, he's pretty shit at sense motive checks, so that's very likely to end badly.

Unfortunately, one of the other party members is an elf and got a high enough roll to know that he's familiar looking, but not exactly who he is.

Mechanically, I've taken a number of steps to disguise my character. He bleaches his hair so it's that white/gold blonde that elves are famous for. He uses a special soap and wears heavy cloaks so his skin is a lot paler than normal for his subtype. He talks with a different accent than his normal one.

And the part that came up recently- when making a bluff check to conceal his secrets from the party, went off on a tangent about being a moderately renowned adventurer who is the star of his own book series, including such classics as "Rel Faren tackles the Balrog in Five Easy Steps." and "Rel Faren Versus the Gnolls of Hook-Knee Swamp".


Next level I take my first level of Bard, which probably means skill points in diplomacy (currently not a class skill), and since I'm the rogue, probably sleight of hand. I have the feat for cha use for ranged attacks, and ultimately took Able Learner with my flaw so I can continue advancing cross class stuff like open lock and search.

Anyways we had our first combat encounter, us versus seven goblins.

The pig killed three of them just straight up. Every Goblin that attacked the pig missed. I killed two, and knocked another down to half health. Didn't get any sneak attacks cause the DM wouldn't let me hide behind the trees, gonna have to talk about sight lines and lighting next time- but did respectably. The party wizard did fuck all, wanted to conserve spells for the 'next encounter'. The favored soul hit a goblin for one damage with a quarterstaff, but saved the Swordsage after he took ten damage and dropped to 0- goblins throwing javelins in his face.

The swordsage ultimately killed two goblins, one of the ones I injured, and another who died to a bullrush maneuver.

The wizard still got full XP for the encounter 'because he rolled initiative' but I think it was just the DM taking pity on him. We got 150 xp each, and 20 gold from the quest giver. It'll be another couple sessions before we hit level 2.

Should be interesting.

Offline faeryn

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2016, 12:04:56 AM »
Remember you can always sneak attack when flanking... so if your DM won't let you hide just flank everything and politely direct them to the flanking and sneak attack rules when they try to deny you your sneak attacks... Since you've got yourself  pig, you've brought your own flanking partner along, just get your pig to flank the target with you...

can also invesst in a ring of blinking or a rogues blade later on if getting sneak attacks becomes to much of a hassle...

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [3.5] Help Needed: Making a Spellthief for a Gothic Horror game
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2016, 12:14:28 AM »
He's going with a ranged build. Getting into melee is probably the last thing on his to do list (and of course it is nearly impossible to flank with a ranged attack). ;)
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.