Mage killing/Lockdown build

[Tonymitsu]

A buddy of mine is starting in a game soon and asked me about some build advice for his character.

The rules that he's said are in effect are as follows:

-Any sources open, even third party, pending DM approval.
-Starting level is 1, play will continue until everyone gets bored.
-Stat generation is obscene: the players are rolling six sets of 4d6, rerolling 1's and 2's until they are 3 or higher, and then adding ALL FOUR dice together. This means the lowest stat anyone will have is a 12, and characters will likely be averaging 16's in everything. Basically stat prerequisites are probably going to be irrelevant.
-Most fluff is NOT mutable
-Each character will be given a template (at no cost) designed by the DM, with a large number of special qualities including scaling damage reduction, scaling spell resistance, the player's choice of up to three energy resistances as they get higher in level, and removing the stat changes from aging as well as the maximum age from each race table.

My friend really, really doesn't like spellcasters on principle and really likes the Mage Slayer feat. I asked him, "That's cool, but Mage Slayer is a mostly passive effect. You stand their and screw the other guy over. What else do you want the character to do, and how do you want to deal with non-magical enemies?"

His responses were, "be sort of tanky" and "beat face with melee damage". He is quite fond of Tome of Battle and likes Warblades. He also really, really wants to do something with a spiked chain, but I think that part might be a bit more negotiable than Mage Slayer.

I've been trying to put something together for him that will suit his needs. So far I've come up with this:

Human Warblade 20
1st- EWP: Spiked Chain, Jotunbrud (RoF)
3rd- Mage Slayer
5th- Warblade Bonus: Combat Reflexes
6th- Improved Trip
9th- Warblade Bonus: Blind-Fight, Pierce Magical Concealment
12th- Stand Still
13th- Warblade Bonus: Improved Initiative
15th- *open*
18th- *open*

Or possibly this:

Human Crusader 20
1st- Extra Granted Maneuver, Combat Reflexes
3rd- Mage Slayer
6th- Blind-Fight
9th- Pierce Magical Concealment
12th- Stand Still
15th- *open* (Improved Initiative?)
18th- *open*
This character will focus on Thicket of Blades to limit mobility. Perhaps squeezing in Aberrant Blood and Inhuman reach with flaws if the DM will allow it.


I'm unsure of how else to proceed. The first one gets him pretty much everything he likes, but the second one just feels more "tanky" to me.

Is there anything else I missed? Any way I can improve on these?

[Solo]

He needs reach. I suggest you give him levels in the Drunken Master prestige class.

[phaedrusxy]

Skip Jotunbrud and just make him a goliath. Slap a level or two of barbarian on it for Mountain Rage and maybe Improved Trip without the prereqs (Wolf Totem). If you can withstand the cheese of adding yet another totem (Lion), you could also get Pounce, but of course that matters a lot less with a Martial Adept than with most melees. You'll definitely need at least one instance of Extra Rage, also.

Edit: Also, your first build isn't legal. The prereq for Improved Trip is Combat Expertise, not Combat Reflexes.

[Tonymitsu]

Edit: Also, your first build isn't legal. The prereq for Improved Trip is Combat Expertise, not Combat Reflexes.

 

Doh.



Okay, so something like:

Goliath
1. Crusader 1- Combat Reflexes
2. (Wolf totem) Goliath Substitution Barbarian 1- Mountain Rage
3. Barbarian 2- Improved Trip, Mage Slayer
6. Crusader 4- Blind-Fight
9. Crusader 7- Pierce Magical Concealment
12. Crusader 10- Extra Granted Maneuver

That should fix his stance progression to get him Thicket of Blades at level 4.
Should I be bothered by the fact that it doesn't really have room for Stand Still or Spiked Chain proficiency, or will that not matter?
Is there a better feat progression I'm missing?

[phaedrusxy]

Is he really married to the Pierce Magical Concealment? Because Blind Fight is kind of a sucky prereq, because you can (probably, depending on item availability) buy a bunch of Scout's Headbands to give True Seeing at that level for 3400 gp each and just swap them out between combats if you use one.

Another route is Knockback + Shock Trooper. You can actually get a lot of use out of all three of the options of Shock Trooper if you have Knockback, and it allows you to not even bother with Improved Trip if you want to skip it. For that version, you might go with two levels of Fighter instead of barbarian.

Stand Still is OK, but the fact that you do no damage with it makes me less enamored with it than some of the other options for melee BFC.

[Tonymitsu]

Hm, interesting.

PMC was actually my suggestion to him, so probably no, not married. At this point I'm just collecting options so he can pick the one he likes the best.

So if staying with Goliath:

1. Crusader 1: Power Attack
2. Fighter 1: Improved Bull Rush
3. Fighter 2: Knockback, Mage Slayer
6. Crusader 4- Shock Trooper
9. Crusader 7- Extra Granted Maneuver
12. Crusader 10- Leap Attack?


That does the damage, but it still doesn't solve the reach problem, and he's still losing out on the spiked chain.

How worth it would the Dungeon Crasher variant be at that point? I feel like he might get some mileage at higher levels bull rushing flying targets into the ground. And does it count for the Shock Trooper option for knocking enemies into each other.

[RobbyPants]

So if staying with Goliath:

1. Crusader 1: Power Attack
2. Fighter 1: Improved Bull Rush
3. Fighter 2: Knockback, Mage Slayer
6. Crusader 4- Shock Trooper
9. Crusader 7- Extra Granted Maneuver
12. Crusader 10- Leap Attack?

I feel this is probably the strongest build out of the ones you posted. Phaedrusxy definitely made some good suggestions.

That does the damage, but it still doesn't solve the reach problem, and he's still losing out on the spiked chain.

There's always the reach weapon + armor spikes option. Trippers traditionally use the guisarme (martial reach weapon that trips), but with Knockback/Shock Trooper, you may as well just go with something that deals more damage. Armor spikes are goofy in that they let you make "off-hand attacks" with them. How this interacts with rules of using a two-handed weapon is unclear. Traditionally, on these boards, people interpret this as working with two-handed weapons. Of course, when mixed with a reach weapon you can only ever reach with your polearm or your armor spikes, so you won't ever be using both at the same time. Check with the DM to see if he's fine with this.

Pros: save a feat on EWP.
Cons: the spikes count as a light weapon, you can't Power Attack with them, which kills Knockdown on adjacent targets.

How worth it would the Dungeon Crasher variant be at that point? I feel like he might get some mileage at higher levels bull rushing flying targets into the ground. And does it count for the Shock Trooper option for knocking enemies into each other.

I've never used the ACF before, and I don't remember the ins and outs of it, but I seem to remember it triggering just fine when bull rushing one guy into another. IIRC, you get +2d6 damage at 2nd level and +4d6 (total) at 6th level, which makes it quite the investment in dead fighter levels when multiclassing with Crusader.

Someone more knowledgeable with Dungeoncrashing can probably weigh in and give you better advice, here.

-Stat generation is obscene: the players are rolling six sets of 4d6, rerolling 1's and 2's until they are 3 or higher, and then adding ALL FOUR dice together. This means the lowest stat anyone will have is a 12, and characters will likely be averaging 16's in everything. Basically stat prerequisites are probably going to be irrelevant.

Nitpick: the average of this is actually 18. If you're rerolling all 1s and 2s, you're effectively rolling 4d4+8.

[ketaro]

Have you seen the Occult Slayer & Suel Arcanamach PrCs in Complete Arcane?
The prior is pretty straight forward hunt down pesky mages and ignore their pesky spells. The second is some of the same, but Dispelling Strike & free Extended spell for personal buffs you can get through the PrC's casting ability can also go a long way.

Don't forget to Sunder spell component pouches and/or Holy Symbols

Alternatively, beat them at their own game and be a Psion *cough* 

[Arz]

Well if you like sending them to a fate worse than death. See spellthief below...

[Tonymitsu]

@ ketaro
Suel Arcanamarch doesn't play nice with Mage Slayer, since it permanently lowers his caster level.
I didn't see Occult Slayer in Complete Arcane. I did find it in Complete Warrior.
It's... fine. I guess. Doesn't really add much to the concept for the sunk cost of Weapon Focus.
Psion (like spellcasters) aren't really his thing

@ Arz
Spellthief is almost as far away from what he wants to do as Psion.


But thanks for all of the input everyone.

[Aethyr]

I just put together a mid level tripper warblade build. Someone suggested to use mage slayer instead of knockdown as well. Any mage in a 10' radius has to move out in order to cast their spell, triggering 1 or 2 AoO. Oh ya, they can't move out because of trip! You also get some nice bonus to your saves to ignore the mages spells. Here it is:
2 Wolf/Ferocity Barbarian, rest warblade

Feats
L1: Martial Study (Crusader’s Strike)
Human: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
Flaw: Combat Reflexes
L2 Wolf Totem: Improved Trip
L3: Knock-Down (Or mage-slayer)
L4 Warblade Feature: Uncanny Dodge
L6: Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
L7 Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
L8 Warblade Feature: Improved Uncanny Dodge


Warblade (Starting at IL 2 from barb dip)
Barb lvl 1: Crusader's Strike
L1: Moment of Perfect Mind (DM), Charging Minotaur (SD), Leading the Attack (WR)
L2: Wall of Blades (IH)
L3: Emerald Razor (WR)
L4: Loose Charging Minotaur (SD), gain Iron Heart Surge (IH)
L5: White Ravens Tactics (WR)
L6: Loose Leading the Attack (WR), Gain Lightning Recovery (IH)

Stances:
L1: Punishing Stance
L4: Tactics of the Wolf
L4: Thicket of Blades (Feat)