Author Topic: Warlock "Fix" Brainstorming  (Read 3680 times)

Offline TenaciousJ

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Warlock "Fix" Brainstorming
« on: October 02, 2016, 01:08:43 AM »
I like the warlock concept in 5e.  However, I have a problem with the fact that its most attractive features come in the first 3 levels.  I also have a problem with the class being so focused on Eldritch Blast and Hex for optimized damage.  So an idea came to me last night when I was driving home from DMing and I bounced a few of these ideas off the warlock player who was riding home with me.  Tell me what you guys think and what needs to be accounted for to make this an improvement over current warlock functionality without getting really busted.

-Change Eldritch Blast to scale exactly like Fire Bolt does.  There's a method to the madness here but it starts with making Eldritch Blast no more attractive than other cantrips to other classes.  It's still a solid choice for high base damage, long range, and a good damage type.

-Change Agonizing Blast tp apply to all warlock cantrips instead of just Eldritch Blast.  Eldritch Blast is still the optimal ranged damage choice, but other cantrips stay competitive with it.  It probably needs some caveat for how it works with Green-Flame Blade.

-Change Eldritch Spear to double the range on warlock cantrips.  Slight nerf to functionality with Eldritch Blast but again it makes other cantrips competitive, and this change has the added bonus to make Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade work for Pact of the Blade warlocks who want to use reach weapons without being forced to take Spell Sniper to take advantage of that reach.

-Increase the push on Repelling Blast to 20 ft.  This makes more sense with the next change.

-New class feature: Insert at a level between 5 and 11 inclusive.  When you use your action to cast Eldritch Blast, Chill Touch, or Poison Spray, you cast the spell twice.  If you have the Pact of the Blade, add Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, and Lightning Lure and Sword Burst to the list of cantrips that benefit from this invocation.  It's Extra Attack for cantrips and it's worded to prevent abuse via Quicken Spell, War Caster, etc.

These changes probably eliminate the need for Thirsting Blade and Life Drinker as invocation taxes specific to Pact of the Blade.

I have not thought of an elegant way to account for Pact of the Tome in the "Extra Attack for cantrips" feature.  I want to leave the benefit to the SCAG cantrips as an exclusive benefit to Pact of the Blade so Tome doesn't tread all over its theme.

Compare the level new full invocation Eldritch Blast to the old one:
New before level 11: 2x (2d10+Cha) = 22 + 2x Cha avg.
Old before level 11: 2x (1d10+Cha) = 11 + 2x Cha avg.

 with Hex:

New before level 11: 2x (2d10+Cha+1d6) = 29 + 2x Cha avg.
Old before level 11: 2x (1d10 +Cha +1d6) = 18 + 2x Cha avg.

This is why I think the feature needs to come online a bit later than extra attack would.  It does have the disadvantage though of holding back the scaling of Pact of the Blade for levels most people don't play or don't play very long unless Thirsting Blade is left in.  However the damage is better now without Hex than the old version had with Hex, reducing the relative proportion of damage coming from Hex and freeing the warlock's choices for spell slots somewhat.

Eldritch Blast at level 11:
New: 2x (3d10+Cha) = 33+2x Cha avg.
Old: 3x (1d10+Cha) = 16.5+3x Cha avg.

Eldritch Blast + Hex at level 11+
New: 2x (3d10+Cha+1d6) = 40+2x Cha avg.
Old: 3x (1d10+Cha+1d6) = 27+3x Cha avg.

Big gap in scaling here, though Hex's relative contribution to the new version shrinks yet again.  Assuming +5 Charisma, the gap here is 11.5 damage without Hex and 8 with Hex.  As a byproduct, lower Charisma increases the gap in favor of the new version.

Eldritch Blast at level 17+:
New: 2x (4d10+Cha) = 44+2x Cha avg.
Old: 4x (1d10+Cha) = 22+4x Cha avg.

Eldritch Blast + Hex at level 17+:
New: 2x (4d10+Cha+1d6) = 51+2x Cha avg.
Old: 4x (1d10+Cha+1d6) = 36+4x Cha avg.

Assuming +5 Charisma again, the no Hex gap is 12 average and the Hex gap is 5.

Now let's look at the new Pact of the Blade using Green-Flame Blade assuming 1 target at level 5.
W = average weapon damage

New Eldritch Blast: 2d10+Cha = 11+Cha
New GFB: W+d8+Cha = W+4.5+Cha

The two are equal when W = 6.5  For a greatsword/maul, a +1 Strength mod comes out ahead.  For a polearm, a +1 Strength mod breaks even and a +2 Strength mod comes out ahead.  For a rapier, a +2 Dexterity mod breaks even and a +3 comes out ahead.  Pact of the Blade can actually gain damage by risking melee combat, even against one target.  With 2 targets within 5 feet, Pact of the Blade would clearly pull ahead because of Green-Flame Blade's secondary damage.

So after this giant wall of text, what's abusable for this hypothetical fix for optimization?  I've already considered the fighter/paladin/Assassin Rogue combo that would be available by 12 to 18 depending on where the "Extra Attack for cantrips" feature is.

I also just thought about the combination of features would make a Pact of the Blade Sword Burst into a 10 ft. radius Fireball after level 11.  It's probably balanced on a single-classed warlock but that could get incredibly abusable in a multiclass build.  Maybe Sword Burst shouldn't be on the list for the "Extra Attack for cantrips" feature.  Thunderclap similarly would need to be considered for Pact of the Tome.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 01:45:42 AM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline Nifft

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Re: Warlock "Fix" Brainstorming
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2016, 09:58:46 PM »
Hmm.

My Warlock fix would probably be something like...

1/ Fixed "+x to all Warlock cantrip damage rolls" as a class feature. That removes one Invocation tax (benefit to pure Warlock) and removes the disproportionate benefit of a 2-level dip.

2/ Invocations scale with level. For example, instead of having one "Disguise Self" Invocation and one higher-level "Alter Self" Invocation, just have one Invocation which gives you "Disguise Self" at low levels and "Alter Self" at higher levels.

3/ Invocations are never 1/day spells. They're either constant or at-will. They should be weirder, too. For example, how about an Invocation that allows you to turn into a rat, then at high level allows you to turn into a dire rat, and the capstone is that you can turn into a swarm of rats. I want stuff that's both disgusting and mechanically interesting.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Warlock "Fix" Brainstorming
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2016, 09:59:08 AM »
I was mostly just focused on the damage math because every Warlock build defaults to Eldritch Blast as the best choice in most situations after a round or two of combat.  Pact of the Blade really suffers for it.

In my own house rules, the 1/day invocations don't cost a pact slot.  That brings up their marginal value a lot without drastically altering functionality.
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Offline Nifft

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Re: Warlock "Fix" Brainstorming
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2016, 08:39:22 PM »
I was mostly just focused on the damage math because every Warlock build defaults to Eldritch Blast as the best choice in most situations after a round or two of combat.  Pact of the Blade really suffers for it.
Yeah I agree.

Eldritch Blast and Blade Pact damage should both benefit via class level, with no Invocation tax for either, and no short-cuts for dippers.

In my own house rules, the 1/day invocations don't cost a pact slot.  That brings up their marginal value a lot without drastically altering functionality.
That's valid, but I do consider the 1/day Invocations to be boring.

I'd rather replace them with something interesting... preferably, something which has good synergy with class spells, or class features, or with other Invocations.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Warlock "Fix" Brainstorming
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2016, 09:18:05 PM »
Quote
Eldritch Blast and Blade Pact damage should both benefit via class level, with ... no short-cuts for dippers.

I've softened my stance on that because ultimately dipping warlock for Eldritch Blast damage is less powerful than staying single-classed for the other Charisma casters, and in the case of paladin, a sorcerer multiclass is more powerful.  Even once the other Charisma casters get to 9th level spells, you're trading off access to extra 5th, 6th, and 7th level slots potentially that can swing a combat more effectively than adding Charisma to Eldritch Blast.
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