Author Topic: ... the UA Monk storm ...  (Read 6901 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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... the UA Monk storm ...
« on: December 09, 2016, 04:36:50 PM »
< formerly : the calm before >

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https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/monk-monastic-traditions

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« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 04:57:46 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Wilb

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2016, 06:58:35 PM »
 :bigeyes
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Offline Solo

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2016, 07:05:13 PM »
I'll take partially charged wands for 400
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Offline Childe

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2016, 12:59:01 AM »
I'll take partially charged wands for 400
This partially charged wand conjures a yuge hand. It conjures the best hands. And the Dungeon Master pays for its charges.
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2016, 02:10:16 AM »
I hope they take the opportunity to rewrite or reimagine Way of the 4 Elements.  I don't even care if it's one archetype or split into multiples.  The idea is fun but the implementation sucks.  After the entire ranger class, that archetype seems to be the most requested for a revision.
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Offline sambojin

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2016, 03:37:58 PM »
They sort of went too far into the expensive end of ki points used for the different abilities, definitely. You could quite easily go through 1/4-1/2 of your ki on just one decent attack/spell effect, which made it look too resource dependant (on top of being MAD and somewhat "light" as melee classes go). It's got some very nice abilities, but the execution was poor.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2016, 01:13:27 PM »
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/monk-monastic-traditions

Way of the Kensei:
3 level dip for this gets you Dexterity instead of Strength with a weapon.  Note that doesn't make it finesse, so still no Sneak Attacks with a greataxe.  Still, it might have some use.  This alone reinforces the Monk/revised Ranger multiclass synergy.  It's overall a very simple archetype but it addresses a lot of the issues people have with monks, but there are some RAW issues here.  Note that a "kensei weapon" is not a "monk weapon."  There's surely an oversight somewhere, because RAW, this would mean you lose the benefit of the Martial Arts feature, which means your unarmed strikes would suck and flurry would be a bit of a joke.  Though "wielding" could just mean you lose the benefit of Martial Arts while actually attacking with the kensei weapon, and you could completely forego its use for a turn to use unarmed strikes and Flurry of Blows for normal damage.  Then the kensei weapon is just a glorified shield.  If RAW and RAI align... then this is an archetype meant to buff bows and short swords at high levels or be multiclass-bait for dex fighters and rangers.

Way of Tranquility:
This seems much more RP-focused than combat-focused... at first.  You get !Lay on Hands that you can use as part of a Flurry of Blows, and you get 8 hour Sanctuary at level 3 instead of 11 like Open Hand.  Douse the Flames of War could be really, really powerful control if the monk can win initiative.  Action Surge this and gets pretty interesting.  The level 17 feature could be nuts if your party likes to summon lots of weak creatures to help set it off.  Monk level in damage per hit for a turn with a short rest recharge in exchange for letting a summoned mouse die to an errant fireball...

e: They definitely didn't proofread kensei weapons very well.  RAW it allows for Strength bows and crossbows.  A kensei dip makes a ranged barbarian work!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:46:28 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline Wilb

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2016, 02:28:58 PM »
Is it me or the Kensei is written to not forbid the use of armors?(for its subclass features)

It seems to bypass the limitations with regards to attacks with "kensei weapons" and gives an option to, as a bonus action, "beat" someone with the the weapon instead of using unarmed strike (which armor would forbid).

Have I seen it right or I'm crapping through my fingers?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:32:43 PM by Wilb »
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2016, 02:32:00 PM »
Only Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, and Unarmored Movement forbid wearing armor.  If you're willing to forego those features (and plenty of multiclass builds already are willing), then nothing is stopping you from doing it.

I wonder how it looks when the Kensei uses a bow and them pummels the target he shot for bludgeoning damage.  Does the back of the arrow snap off and spin into the target for more damage?

e: Let's actually do some math.
Level 17 Kensei
Greatsword with GWM = 2d6+10+Dex twice = 34 + 2xDex average
-add pummel = d4 = 2.5 average
-add Flurry = 1+Str twice = 2 + 2xStr average

Shortsword = 1d10+Dex twice = 11 average + 2xDex
-add Flurry = 1d10+Dex twice = 11 average + 2xDex

So flurry vs. flurry, we have: 2x(2d6+10+Dex+1+Str) > 4x(1d10+Dex)
2x(7+10+Dex+1+Str) > 4x(5.5+Dex)
36+2xDex+2xStr > 22+4xDex
14+2xStr > 2xDex
7+Str > Dex

If you have GWM, you have at least a +1 Strength modifier, so the above holds true until you get +8 Dex, or 26.  However, this isn't accounting for the higher accuracy on the shortsword routine.  Plugging in +1 Str and +5 Dex, the Kensei routine is only 3 damage higher at the cost of accuracy.

If you want to eliminate the Strength parts of this because the accuracy would be comparatively bad:

GWM + Pummel vs. Flurry
2x(2d6+10+Dex)+d4 > 4x(d10+Dex)
2x(7+10+Dex)+2.5 > 4x(5.5+Dex)
34+2xDex+2.5 > 22+4xDex
14.5 > 2x Dex

So that comparison still holds true until +8 Dex.  Again at +5 Dex, the damage differential is only 4.5 in favor of the Kensei for the cost of lower accuracy, though this one doesn't spend a ki point vs. the shortsword needing one to fall just short.  Using Martial Arts for the shortsword's bonus action instead of Flurry of Blows widens the gap to 15 in favor of the Kensei.  The Kensei's advantage does not seem to be damage, but rather its damage not falling off as badly when you're not using ki points.  The shortsword's advantage is higher accuracy for a slight trade off in damage and effectively having the option to wear a shield.

So after that mathematical analysis, I'm not really impressed by the Kensei as a stand-alone.  It's a low-level hero that tapers off and doesn't have nearly the burst potential of an Open Hand, Long Death, or Tranquility monk at high-levels.  The gimmick really boils down to accuracy control, and without GWM, it doesn't really hold up.

Level 3, no GWM, flurry vs. flurry:
2d6+Dex+2x(1+Str) > d6+Dex+2x(d4+Dex)
7+Dex+2+2xStr > 8.5+3xDex
0.5+2xStr > 2xDex
0.25+Str > Dex

So without GWM, as long as the Dexterity modifier is *1* higher than the Strength modifier, a Kensei weapon is less damage than a shortsword.  A quarterstaff scenario forces the Strength modifier to be higher, at which point, why are you playing a single-classed monk?

Level 3, no GWM, Pummel vs. Martial Arts:
2d6+Dex+d4 > 2x(2d6+Dex)
7+Dex+2.5 > 7+2xDex
2.5 > Dex

So at level 3, the Kensei has an advantage if the character doesn't already have 16 Dexterity.  A quarterstaff reduces that to 14.

At level 5, no GWM, flurry vs. flurry:
2x(2d6+Dex+1+Str) > 4x(d6+Dex)
2x(7+Dex+1+Str) > 4x(3.5+Dex)
16+2xDex+2xStr> 14+4xDex
2+2xStr > 2xDex
1+Str > Dex

Level 5, no GWM, Pummel vs. Martial Arts:
2x(2d6+Dex)+d4 > 3x(d6+Dex)
2x(7+Dex)+2.5 > 3x(3.5+Dex)
14+2xDex+2.5 > 10.5+3xDex
5 > Dex

It looks safe to conclude that without GWM, the any other melee Kensei weapon isn't better than shortsword for single target damage past level 8 when a character could reasonably expect to have 20 Dexterity.  Using a quarterstaff, the character only needs 18 Dexterity to do better on average, which is reasonable at level 5.  The non-shortsword options for Kensei weapons won't keep up without GWM.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 04:56:29 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline Cannotthink

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2016, 03:56:32 PM »
Does a kensei make the net deal damage? :plot

Offline Wilb

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2016, 04:35:25 PM »
Hand crossbow Kensei seem to be awesome considering that they can't flurry from range anyway...
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: ... the calm before the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2016, 04:58:27 PM »
Hand crossbow Kensei seem to be awesome considering that they can't flurry from range anyway...

You made me edit "melee" into the conclusion of that last long past I made.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: ... the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2016, 05:13:25 PM »
{ minor retitle and editted TenJ's link into the o.p. }

Kensei
3 attention all those Dex Fighter + Dex Pally + Dex Barb builds
6 yeah GWM for that, also rarely a sneaky nope I have no magic weapons
11 cheaper than the equivalent spell ... (my kitty avatar's Tail  want to reiterate the claim of no need for magic weapons this edition)
17 I'm sure this looks good on the maths, double advantage so to speak, but where are the Monk's save-or-sucks that need this?

Tranq-uilizer
3a Hex , now buff y'alls party
3b huh, in-combat healing is a thing now ?!  I mean the 4e c.o. guys got this stuff to work at some point.
6 see Friends cantrip, or Rogue 1
11 Hex ... but wtf  :???
17 decent , competes a bit with Healing Hands
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: ... the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2016, 05:26:55 PM »
...

Tranq-uilizer
...
11 Hex ... but wtf  :???
17 decent , competes a bit with Healing Hands

11 says, "You don't fight if I win initiative."  Better have Conjure X spells or non-damaging walls, or the BBEG sits on his hands for a minute.

17 says "That fireball killed my pet mouse.  *flurry for 4x(1d10+5+17)* Wait I dipped fighter 2 and someone hasted me, action surge! *7x(1d10+5+17)*"

Seriously, 17 says each damage roll, it's pretty huge and it recovers on a short rest.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: ... the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2016, 05:42:02 PM »
17 OH THAT !!


11 hmm I may have been thinking more like previous edition(s) Hostility system, since combat is not mandatory, but oh yeah, now you can cast Summons before a combat you Know you need, and other large scale buffings.
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Offline Wilb

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Re: ... the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2016, 06:11:59 PM »
I bet Kensei 17 / Battle Master 3 would be even better with the archery style, action surge and trick shots. Add Magic initiate for Hex and you got a quite nice nova.
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: ... the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2016, 06:42:28 PM »
I bet Kensei 17 / Battle Master 3 would be even better with the archery style, action surge and trick shots. Add Magic initiate for Hex and you got a quite nice nova.

Assuming you had a chance to pre-plan both Sharpen the Blade and Hex so you can use  Crossbow Expert for the bonus action attack:

5x(1d10+1d6+5+10+3) + 4d8 = 5x(5.5+3.5+5+10+3) + 18 = 5x(27) + 18 = 153 average

Not really a barn-burner as far as Action Surge combos go.  Action Surge works best with fighter's extra attack and/or features like the Deep Stalker's extra attack on the first turn.

Barring outside stuff like Haste, the thing I posted about the Tranquility monk would yield the following if you allowed for Magic Initiate to grab Hex and a 3 level dip to Battle Master:
6x(1d10+1d6+5+17) + 4d8 = 6x(5.5+3.5+5+17)+18 = 6x(31)+18 = 204 average

Kensei cutting out Flurry of Blows really hurts it when you're factoring in stuff like Hex and static bonuses per hit.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 06:45:11 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline 8wGremlin

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Re: ... the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2016, 11:25:51 PM »
can a Kensai with Extra attack, hit with the Greatsword then punch them in the face with an unarmed strike, then flurry normally.
Doing standard unarmed strike monk damage.

Also stunning fist with the Greatsword?

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: ... the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2016, 02:09:52 AM »
can a Kensai with Extra attack, hit with the Greatsword then punch them in the face with an unarmed strike, then flurry normally.
Yes, but...
Quote
Doing standard unarmed strike monk damage.
Attacking with the greatsword turns off the martial arts feature for that turn, meaning the unarmed strikes use strength and have 1 base damage.  The paragraph before the bullet points for Martial Arts says you have to be unarmed or only wielding monk weapons, and you can't be wearing armor or using a shield.
 
Quote
Also stunning fist with the Greatsword?
It's called stunning strike in 5e for a reason.  The feature says it works with melee weapon attacks, and greatswords are usually used for melee weapon attacks.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: ... the UA Monk storm ...
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2016, 03:45:46 PM »
Tranq 11 again ... I'm liking this more and more for a whole Party.

It's a count your ammo and plan your tactics, vs. the bbeg.
And/or a DBZ style be-yotch fest (that doesn't last like 5 episodes).

Wisdom Monk might be a thing now.
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