Feedback thread

[bhu]

I fixed Pain Totem, Darkened Eye and Pain Manifester.

I redid the Keeper capstone

Would it help if I redid Pine Benders Giant ability to say they just Wild Shape into Giants?

A lot of these earlier ones (*cough*Soulless*cough*) were requested designs so if their over the top, point them out and I will revise.

[Nanshork]

Changes look good.

For Pine Bender I was initially against it but forgot about the restrictions on HD built into Wild Shape.  I'd go with language stolen borrowed from Planar Shepherd.

"Your druid levels stack with your Pine Bender class levels for the purpose of determining the number of daily uses, the maximum HD and size (but not creature type), and the duration of your wild shape ability."  Then something about how it adds giant to the list of creature types you can wild shape into.

Yeah, Soulless is crazy.

[bhu]

I assume you mean because of the penalties?

[bhu]

Okay looking at letting him change into giants via wild shape:

There are no Gargantuan Giants, it goes from Huge to COlossal.

The benefits he currently gets as I have it written are less than what they might be via Wild Shape (I'd have to do a Level vs Hit Dice comparison to be sure, but there will be some damn wonky stuff.  As I have it written it might actually be less powerful than Wild Shape.

[Nanshork]

The penalties and you go from a normal Barbarian to losing your Con and basically turning into something else.

I'm not familiar enough with Wild Shape to be able to make an assessment.

[bhu]

I'll think about how to fix soulless and I'll do a comparison for the pine bender. 

I should warn you there's a few ... goofy classes on page 2.

[bhu]

Here's the side by side comparison (I'll add regular duid wildshape later):

Pine Bender as is:

Level 7: Medium, 1d3 Slam, +4 Str, +2 Con

Level 9: Large, 1d4 Slam, +8 Str, +4 Con, +2 Natural AC, rock throwing and catching, 40 move

Level 12: Huge, 1d6 Slam, +16 Str, +8 Con, +5 Natural AC, rock throwing and catching, 40 move

Level 15: Gargantuan, 1d8 Slam, +24 Str, +12 Con, +9 Natural AC, rock throwing and catching, 40 move

Level 16: Colossal, 2d6 Slam, +32 Str, +16 Con, +14 Natural AC, rock throwing and catching, 50 move


Pine Bender if I make it Wild Shape into Giants:

Level 7: Large, 21 Str, 8 Dex, 15 Con, +5 Natural AC,  40 Move
OR Large, 21 Str, 10 Dex, 17 Con, +5 Natural AC, 40 Move, Fly 40
OR Large, 1d6 Claw, 1d6 Bite, 23 Str, 14 Dex, 23 Con, +5 Natural AC, rend, 30 Move
OR Large, 1d4 Claw, 17 Str, 16 Dex, 21 Con, +5 Natural AC, 30 Move, Climb 20
OR Large, 20 Str, 12 Dex, 15 Con, +6 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Medium, 1d4 Claw, 1d4 Bite, 20 Str, 13 Dex, 18 Con, +6 Natural AC, cannibalize, rend, 30 Move
OR Medium, 1d3 Slam, 1d4 Bite, 15 Str, 10 Dex, 13 Con, +2 Natural AC, 30 Move, Climb 30
OR Large, 1d6 Claw, 1d6 Bite, 22 Str, 15 Dex, 21 Con, +6 Natural AC, 30 Move
OR Large, 2d6 Claw, 2d6 Bite, 28 Str, 16 Dex, 28 Con, +5 Natural AC, death throes, pounce , rend, tortured mind, 20 Move

Level 8: Large, 1d4 Slam, 29 Str, 9 Dex, 21 Con, +9 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Large, 22 Str, 15 Dex, 21 Con, +7 Natural AC, rock throwing, 30 Move, Swim 40
OR Huge, 2d4 claw, 1d8 Bite, 21 Str, 19 Dex, 18 Con, +10 Natural AC, frightful presence, 20 Move
OR Large, 1d6 Claw, 1d8 Bite, 25 Str, 11 Dex, 24 Con, +8 Natural AC, rend, 30 Move
OR Large, 1d4 Slam, 1d8 Gore, 27 Str, 11 Dex, 23 Con, +8 Natural AC, 40 Move, Burrow 10

Level 9: Large, 2d6 Claw, 1d8 Bite, 29 Str, 13 Dex, 27 Con, +11 Natural AC, dazing blow, improved grab, rake rend, 40 Move

Level 10: Large, 23 Str, 8 Dex, 15 Con, +7 Natural AC, 40 Move
OR Large, 1d6 Claw, 1d6 Bite, 23 Str, 14 Dex, 23 Con, +7 Natural AC, rend, 30 Move

Level 12: Large, 25 Str, 11 Dex, 17 Con, +2 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Large, 1d6 Bite, 31 Str, 16 Dex, 29 Con, +14 Natural AC, dazing blow, 40 Move
OR Huge, 2d6 Slam, 27 Str, 8 Dex, 20 Con, +11 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Large, 1d6 Claw, 1d6 Bite, 34 Str, 11 Dex, 25 Con, +11 Natural AC, rock throwing, cannibalize, rend, 40 Move
OR Large, 1d4 Slam, 1d8 Gore, 20 Str, 17 Dex, 25 Con, +8 Natural AC, 50 Move
OR Large, 25 Str, 10 Dex, 20 Con, +9 Natural AC, 40 Move, Burrow 5

Level 13: Huge,  33 Str, 12 Dex, 22 Con, +11 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Huge,  37 Str, 14 Dex, 25 Con, +10 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Large, 36 Str, 13 Dex, 23 Con, +12 Natural AC, rock throwing, trample, 40 Move
OR Large, 27 Str, 9 Dex, 19 Con, +10 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Large, 1d4 Slam, 27 Str, 9 Dex, 19 Con, +10 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Large, 1d4 Slam, 23 Str, 13 Dex, 19 Con, +10 Natural AC, rage, rock throwing, 40 Move

Level 14: Large, 1d4 Slam, 29 Str, 9 Dex, 21 Con, +9 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Large, 1d4 Slam, 27 Str, 15 Dex, 19 Con, +11 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Huge, 29 Str, 10 Dex, 21 Con, +11 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move

Level 15: Large, 1d4 Slam, 31 Str, 9 Dex, 21 Con, +8 Natural AC, Rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Large, 27 Str, 21 Dex, 21 Con, +11 Natural AC, 40 Move, Burrow 10
OR Huge, 1d8 Claw, 1d8 Bite, 35 Str, 12 Dex, 31 Con, +13 Natural AC, knockdown, 30 Move
OR Huge, 3d8 Claw, 31 Str, 10 Dex, 23 Con, +16 Natural AC, rock throwing, rend, 40 Move

Level 16: Huge, 33 Str, 13 Dex, 23 Con, +10 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move
OR Huge, 2d4 Claw, 2d6 Bite, 32 Str, 11 Dex, 24 Con, +11 Natural AC, rend, 40 Move

Level 17: Huge, 1d6 Slam, 35 Str, 13 Dex, 23 Con, +12 Natural AC, rock throwing,, 50 Move
OR Huge, 1d6 Slam, 31 Str, 13 Dex, 21 Con, +17 Natural AC, rock throwing, exploding rocks, 40 Move
OR Large, 1d6 Slam, 1d8 Gore, 27 Str, 17 Dex, 20 Con, +9 Natural AC, 50 Move, Fly 20

Level 18: Huge, 1d6 Slam, 1d10 Tail Slap, 39 Str, 15 Dex, 28 Con, +16 Natural AC, rock throwing, 40 Move, Swim 80
OR Huge, 36 Str, 17 Dex, 26 Con, +17 Natural AC, rock throwing, death attack, sneak attack, 50 Move
OR Huge, 1d8 Claw, 1d8 Bite, 48 Str, 9 Dex, 32 Con, +17 Natural AC, rock throwing, cannibalize, rend, 40 Move

Level 19: Huge, 1d6 Slam, 39 Str, 14 Dex, 23 Con, +14 Natural AC, 50 Move, Swim 30

Level 23: Huge, 1d8 Slam, 34 Str, 13 Dex, 21 Con, +9 Natural AC, rock throwing, 50 Move

Level 25: Large, 42 Str, 12 Dex, 28 Con, +13 Natural AC, 50 Move

Level 26: Huge, 3d6 Slam (8 with full attack), 33 Str, 12 Dex, 26 Con, +28 Natural AC, rock throwing, batter, exploding nodules, 70 Move

Level 30: Colossal, 2d6 Slam, 43 Str, 10 Dex, 37 Con, +29 Natural AC, rock throwing, crush, fling, grapple, trample, 50 Move

[bhu]

Now for regular druid.  For this one I only looked in the MM:

6th Level: Medium, 1d8 Talon, 1d3 Foreclaws, 2d4 bite, Str 19, Dex 15, Con 19, +6 Natural,pounce, Move 60
OR Medium, 1d4 Claw, 1d6 Bite, Str 14, Dex 17, Con 19, +3 Natural, rage, Move 30, burrow 10

8th Level: Large, 2d6 Talons, 1d4 Foreclaws, 1d8 Bite, Str 21, Dex 15, Con 21, +6 Natural, pounce, Move 60
OR Large, 1d6 Claw, 1d8 Bite, Str 22, Dex 13, Con 14, +4 Natural, rend, Move 30, Climb 15
OR Large, 1d8 Bite, Str 17, Dex 22, Con 17, +5 Natural, Move 20 Fly 40
OR Large, 1d8 Gore, Str 27, Dex 10, Con 17, +6 Natural, ferocity, Move 40
OR Large, 1d6 claw, 1d8 Bite, Str 25, Dex 15, Con 17, +4 Natural, rake, pounce, improved grab, Move 40
OR Large, 1d4 Tentacle (8 w/full attack), 1d8 Bite, Str 20, Dex 15, Con 13, +7 Natural, constrict,  improved grab, Move 20, Swim 30
OR Large, 2d6 Gore, Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, +7 Natural, powerful charge, Move 40

12th Level: Large, 1d6 Slam, Str 20, Dex 10, Con 16, +6 Natural, constrict, entangle, improved grab, Move 5
OR Large, 2d4 claw, 2d8 bite, Str 31, Dex 13, Con 19, +7 Natural, improved grab, Move 40

15th Level: Huge, 2d8 Bite, Str 26, Dex 14, Con 22, +3 Natural, Move 20, Swim 50
OR Huge, 2d8 Bite, 1d6 tendril, Str 28, Dex 9, Con 22, +9 Natural, swallow whole, paralysis, improved grab, Move 20
OR Huge, 2d6 Slam, Str 29, Dex 8, Con 21, +13 Natural, trample, x2 dmg vs objects, Move 30
OR Huge, 2d6 Slam, 2d6 Stamps, 2d8 Gore, Str 30, Dex 10, Con 21, +7 Natural, trample, Move 40
OR Huge, 1d8 Bite, Str 25, Dex 17, Con 13, +4 Natural, constrict, improved grab, Move 20 climb 20, swim 20
OR Huge, 1d6 Bite, Str 16, Dex 15, Con 13, +5 Natural, poison, Move 20, climb 20, swim 20

16th Level: Huge, 2d8 Gore, Str 30, Dex 9, Con 25, +11 Natural, powerful charge, trample, Move 30
OR Large, 2d4 Claw, 2d6 Bite, Str 27, Dex 15, Con 17, +6 Natural, pounce, rake, improved grab, Move 40

18th Level: Huge, 3d6 Bite, Str 28, Dex 12, Con 21, +5 Natural, swallow whole, improved grab, Move 40
OR Huge, 2d8 Bite, Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, +7 Natural, swallow whole, improved grab, Swim 60


This is just plants and animals,  But at 16th level you can become any large elemental (huge at 20th).  Unlike normal wild shape you get all special attacks/qualities (including supernatural and SLA's).

[Nanshork]

Giants do seem to have an advantage.

[bhu]

In their defense there isnt a lot of them so i went through all the Giants, and the only plants/animals I did were from the MM.  When you get into dinosaurs and Legendary animals from later books (along with weirder plants) the Druid catches up.  An then blows past the Giants at level 16 due to elemental wild shape.  With you getting all of an elementals abilities, theres no longer any reason to take plants or animals.  Why go for T-Rex when you can be a giant ball of fire with SLA's?

[Nanshork]

Well you don't get Large until 8 and you don't get Huge until 15 so that helps narrow things down a little.  Also, remember you only get extraordinary special attacks so I'm not sure how many of the abilities you listed can actually be gained by wild shape.  That means that Rock Catching can't be gained through Wild Shape without an explicit exception.

Out of what you posted, here's the best:

6/7th Level (Medium)
 - Pine Bender: 2d6 Claw, 2d6 Bite, 28 Str, 16 Dex, 28 Con, +5 Natural AC, death throes, pounce , rend, tortured mind, 20 Move
 - Druid: 1d8 Talon, 1d3 Foreclaws, 2d4 bite, Str 19, Dex 15, Con 19, +6 Natural,pounce, Move 60

Pine Bender wins here although a lot of those racial features probably aren't gained.  That's an insane 7HD creature...

8th Level (Large)
 - Pine Bender: 1d4 Slam, 1d8 Gore, 27 Str, 11 Dex, 23 Con, +8 Natural AC, 40 Move, Burrow 10
 - Druid: 1d6 claw, 1d8 Bite, Str 25, Dex 15, Con 17, +4 Natural, rake, pounce, improved grab, Move 40

Honestly Pine Bender barely wins here.

12th Level (Large)
 - Pine Bender: 1d6 Claw, 1d6 Bite, 34 Str, 11 Dex, 25 Con, +11 Natural AC, rock throwing, cannibalize, rend, 40 Move
 - Druid: 2d4 claw, 2d8 bite, Str 31, Dex 13, Con 19, +7 Natural, improved grab, Move 40

Pine Bender inches ahead with stats and AC but druid has the damage dice advantage.

15th Level (Huge)
 - Pine Bender: 1d8 Claw, 1d8 Bite, 35 Str, 12 Dex, 31 Con, +13 Natural AC, knockdown, 30 Move
 - Driud: 2d6 Slam, 2d6 Stamps, 2d8 Gore, Str 30, Dex 10, Con 21, +7 Natural, trample, Move 40

Again, Pine Bender has the stats advantage but Druid gets more damage, also more attacks with this one.

18th Level (Huge)
 - Pine Bender: 1d8 Claw, 1d8 Bite, 48 Str, 9 Dex, 32 Con, +17 Natural AC, rock throwing, cannibalize, rend, 40 Move
 - Druid: 3d6 Bite, Str 28, Dex 12, Con 21, +5 Natural, swallow whole, improved grab, Move 40

I think Pine Bender just wins this one all the way.



Looking at it that way, with the built in limitations already in Wild Shape (limited to HD, size restrictions based on level, can't get most cool stuff) it seems to be okay.

[bhu]

Thats just the MM.  Going to MM3 you can become a Fleshraker at 6th Level:

Medium, 2 claws 1d6 plus poison, bite 1d6, tail id6 plus poison, Str 17, DEx 19, Con 15, leaping pounce (free trip, grapple and full attack), poison, rakes, +6 Natural AC, Move 60

At the opposite end at level 18 you have the Dire Polar Bear:

Huge, 2d6 Claw, 3d8 Bite, Str 39, Dex 11, Con 23, improved grab (+22 grapple check!), +11 Natural, Move 50 Swim 20

I rechecked the entries, rock catching was all i got wrong, they keep the other stuff.


Then we get to elementals, where the druid gains all their abilities (unlike plants and animals): 

The Earth Weird from MM2 (Level 15):

Large, 2d6 Slam, Str 21, Dex 14, Con 17, elemental command (Can dominate elementals within 100 feet), prescience (can cast a bunch of divination spells as Su), Dr 20/Magic, elemental pool it lives in, regeneration 10 SR 25, +3 Natural AC, Move 30, Burrow 30, it also gains these Feats: alertness, dodge, empower spell, great fortitude, improved initiative, lightning reflexes, maximize spell

Spawn of Juiblex: Huge, 3d8 Slam plus slimy infestation (victim is coated by a blob you control that attacks his allies), Str 31, Dex 10, Con 24, horrific presence, sludge form (does acid and con damage by entering your space), sludge orb (ranged 2d8 plus slimy infestation), +16 Natural AC, Move 40, Climb 30, it also gains these feats: cleave, improved critical (Slam), improved natural attack (slam), power attack

Caller from the Deeps: Huge, tentacle 2d6 plus con drain, Str 26, Dex 9, Con 30, improved grab, constrict , SLA's (including summon), DR 5/-, +15 Natural AC, Swim 50, it also gains these feats: combat reflexes, improved natural attack (tentacles), swim-by attack, weapon focus (tentacles)

Living Holocaust: Small, windspike 1d6 plus 1d6 fire, Str -, Dex 20, Con 17, air mastery, burn, permanent gaseous form, holocaust winds (gust of wind doing 3d6 fire), whirlflame transformation, DR 25/ Magic, Rgeneration 5, SR 24, fly 50, it gains these feats: combat reflexes, improved critical (windspike), improved initiative, iron will, weapon finesse, weapon focus (winspike)

You can also go Invisible Stalker with permanent invisibility, even though it lacks the raw power of these others

At Level 18 theres the Storm Elemental

Huge, 2d6 slam+2d6 electricity, Str 30, Dex 9, Con 22, air mastery, 8d4 electircal damage to 1 opponent per round as a free action, 8d6 sonic and 16d6 electrical damage in a 60 ft area 1/Minute, electrical and sonic healing, DR 5/-, Move 50, Fly 100, it also gains these feats: alertness, blind-fight, cleave, improved initiative, lightning reflexes, power attack

There are feats or class abilities allowing druids to wildshape into dragons, magical beasts, aberrations and vermin as well

[Nanshork]

Sounds like Wild Shaping into giants is just fine, especially if you just make it another option so there's no gear resizing and whatnot without addition investment.

[bhu]

giant shape has been revised.  Will be thinking on what to do with soulless whilst you peek at page 2.

Be kind, the first 3 entries were April Fools Day classes...

[Nanshork]

giant shape has been revised.  Will be thinking on what to do with soulless whilst you peek at page 2.

Be kind, the first 3 entries were April Fools Day classes...

Text and Table for giant shape don't match.

In addition, you've got Pine Bender levels stacking with Druid for Wild Shape size but then giving out larger giant sizes earlier than you get them normally since you can go Druid 3/Pine Bender 1.  Why not just take out the Pine Bender giant size information?

[Nanshork]

Orcs Page 2

Voice of Gruumsh
 - Random commas in the table
 - That capstone is crazy powerful, too powerful for a full casting class

Orc Redneck
 - Reckless says "7tj"

Orc Dominatrix
 - Black Leather 7th level ability should say that it overlaps with any existing enhancement bonus
 - The prerequisites to me say Monk + Any Spellcaster but there's no support for Monk in this.  Add Monk support or adjust the feat pre-reqs please.
 - It requires spellcasting, has support for it a little, but doesn't give any spellcasting increases.  This is one of the main complaints about Arcane Archer.

Incredible Orc
 - You're slipping into Monk pre-reqs again, this class doesn't even care about grappling.
 - Regen 5 seems excessive, without a way to bypass it you're unkillable while raging.

Pandemonicus
 - You're a spontaneous spellcaster, you don't "lose" spells, you expend spell slots.  Unless you mean lose access to the spell?
 - For Demonic Transformation I'd drop the demon summoning, the capstone is fine without it and it complicates things.

Tanarruk Demonsword
 - Another spontaneous spellcaster, see my Pandemonicus note on losing spells.
 - Advanced Learning shouldn't be based on a stat, just give a set number of spells.  Otherwise, what happens if you gain/lose intelligence either permanently or temporarily?

Horn of Amon
 - Wisdom of the God should say that you cast one spell of each level per day (without saying per day it could be interpreted as one spell ever).
 - Priest of the God might be too much.

Orog Jugernaut
 - Weapon Proficiencies has placeholder text.
 - Master Blaster says "Yes. It is a bad name."

Sword of Ilneval
 - Spellsword fist level ability says "cast and spell".

Orc Spear Master
 - Style Maneuvers should specify that you only get the bonuses for a single style.

Fist of Baghtru
 - Weapon Proficiencies should be listed at the top, not the bottom.
 - I can't tell if Divine Hammer is restricted to Greatclub only, you need to standardize the language.

Luthicarite
 - Should Turn Undead be a class pre-req since this class uses that feature?
 - Should Unarmed Fighting level 2 stack with Monk levels for AC bonus?

Zombie Chief wasn't in the index, that's an interesting one.

[bhu]

Redid everything you mentioned, and am awaiting feedback!

I have also begun tinkering with Soulless.

[Nanshork]

I think you can just take "Yes it is a bad name" out of Orog Juggernaut unless you really like saying that.

Orc Spear Master wasn't adjusted.  The question is what happens if you have feats from multiple styles?  My assumption is you only get a single style from the class.

I think all the other changes look good.

[bhu]

I fixed spear master, if you like it were on to page 3

[Nanshork]

Page 3

Winter Adept
 - Wintery Armor should have a duration of longer than just 1 minute.  Going from 1 minute 3/day to permanent needs more of a progression.

Mindspear
 - The capstone is again a little much.  Always on touch attack + a soulknife fix could be a big problem.

Orog Myrmidon
 - Proficiencies should be at the top, not the bottom.