Author Topic: Character Generation and Discussion  (Read 24165 times)

Offline Drammor

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #80 on: July 17, 2017, 01:48:25 PM »
Your question leads to a can of worms I was hoping we wouldn't need to address. Using simple DCs to cover something as complex as Diplomacy is something I'm not comfortable with in the first place, since at all levels, Diplomacy is an easy skill to pump. It really becomes a question of whether you're optimized enough to pass a check with statistical reliability, whether you're using the Burlew solution or not.

There are more complex simulations we could use, but I'm loathe to make 3.5 any more simulationist than it already is. If you have suggestions that result in neither more complicated simulations nor single axis Boolean operators, then I'm all ears. Otherwise, I suppose I can start work on a different subsystem that will hopefully address these problems without getting too crazy.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Rekmond

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #81 on: July 17, 2017, 02:23:58 PM »
Is anyone even planning to make it a problem though? The system is flawed, no argument, but it works fine until people start going out of their way to break it.

I'll admit, Wild Empathy uses the same rules as Diplomacy Checks, but even then I'm not making every animal I meet Helpful. Nor do I ever intend to do so.


I'd think it fits in with your optimization level rule honestly, check what kind of tomfoolery someone can manage, and if need be, pull out a hammer and take the Diplomacy rules back to the forge.
I want to be born. To live. That is all I want. -Aura

Offline Drammor

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #82 on: July 17, 2017, 03:10:34 PM »
I could take a page from Legend and go with a social bartering system, tripped by a sufficiently high check, sort of like how Knowledge is a-ok for anyone up to 10.

Like... and I'm just throwing ideas at a wall here, but any check of DC 20 or greater requires a social encounter. In a social encounter, each player starts with N tokens, and they can earn or lose tokens based on a number of opposed checks equal to the avenues of address they attempt. Then, at the end of the encounter, they "purchase" their results with tokens, from among the possible results they vied for. Players might start with a number of tokens equal to their Cha mod, and stand to gain or lose up to 2 at a time for making a request.

I could even update the Diplomacy feats and tricks to reflect this system. It wouldn't take me but a couple of hours.

It's complex and simulationey, but still an abstraction I can wrap my head around, and it stops players from turning enemy factions into fanatic followers without serious investment.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 04:29:21 AM by Drammor »
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Vladeshi

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #83 on: July 17, 2017, 06:09:24 PM »
Like... and I'm just throwing ideas at a wall here, but any check of DC 20 or greater requires a social encounter. In a social encounter, each player starts with N tokens, and they can earn or lose tokens based on a number of opposed checks equal to the avenues of address they attempt. Then, at the end of the encounter, they "purchase" their results tokens, from among the possible results they vied for. Players might start with a number of tokens equal to their Cha mod, and stand to gain or lose up to 2 at a time for making a request.

I kind of like this idea.
I wasn't planning on making it a problem, but something like this might help prevent my +21 Diplomacy and +29 Intimidate from rolling entire armies out of our way by accident.
The following explanation has been removed due to time constraints, character limits on posts, and the DC 30 Spellcraft checks to understand large portions of it.

Offline Archon

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #84 on: July 17, 2017, 08:49:02 PM »
Like... and I'm just throwing ideas at a wall here, but any check of DC 20 or greater requires a social encounter. In a social encounter, each player starts with N tokens, and they can earn or lose tokens based on a number of opposed checks equal to the avenues of address they attempt. Then, at the end of the encounter, they "purchase" their results tokens, from among the possible results they vied for. Players might start with a number of tokens equal to their Cha mod, and stand to gain or lose up to 2 at a time for making a request.

This sounds pretty cool, I'd you can get something hacked together with out too much pain on your part. I like the idea of negotiation being possible, and of it having consequences, negative and positive, which are not, "welp, that encounter is negated by one roll you automatically passed at trivial cost"

My character is pretty social too. I think maybe +28 diplomacy, and a pretty high intimate. I did take some actual diplomancy stuff, like warlock for beguiling influence.

Offline Rekmond

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2017, 08:51:19 PM »
*looks at his +20 diplomacy*

Somehow I get the feeling I focused elsewhere. Least I know I'm a decent frontliner.
I want to be born. To live. That is all I want. -Aura

Offline ketaro

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2017, 12:48:20 AM »
I'm an Orc.
It's a bloody miracle I even have +10 Diplomancy :p

Offline Drammor

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2017, 09:34:06 PM »
Here's what I derped up in the last 24 hours.

(click to show/hide)
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Archon

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2017, 09:45:13 PM »
Here's what I derped up in the last 24 hours.

(click to show/hide)

This seems pretty good. I like it a lot

Perhaps the main thing it could use is functions for the other social skills, like intimidate and sense motive.

(How does rushing a check work in this context. Naberius lets me do the for free.)

Offline Drammor

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2017, 09:50:42 PM »
Making the initial Diplomacy check still requires 1 minute to work, as normal. Rushing the check makes it take 1 full-round action, instead, but imposes a -10 penalty on the check. Naberius lets you do this without the penalty.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Archon

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2017, 09:51:33 PM »
Ah sure. Cool cool.

Offline Drammor

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2017, 11:27:00 PM »
If this system appeals to everyone, I'll get started on the feats, Intimidate and Sense Motive.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Rekmond

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2017, 04:33:00 AM »
So how much more work do people estimate needing to do?

I could likely be done tomorrow if I just sat down and bought gear.
I want to be born. To live. That is all I want. -Aura

Offline Archon

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2017, 04:42:09 AM »
So how much more work do people estimate needing to do?

I could likely be done tomorrow if I just sat down and bought gear.

I have to compile a bunch of notes into the character sheets for my cohorts.

My followers are horrifically incomplete, and don't have gear purchased right up to the line of their WBL, but the broad strokes are there - I think choosing their feats and a rough outline of what skills they have would be enough to let me calculate everything else when I need to.

What do other people think (noting that I currently have 46 types to write up if people think I should).

I might want to do actual character sheets for the level 8-9 ones though.

If I left the broad strokes of the followers in place and didn't do them in detail, I could probably finish by tomorrow too.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2017, 07:09:59 AM »
I'm nowhere near done. If everyone else is ready to go, I'm ok with sitting this game out... if other people have a lot of work, then I'll keep chugging away.
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Offline Vladeshi

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2017, 01:19:36 PM »
I still have to buy gear for everyone and finish up a cohort, oddly enough my followers have all been done for weeks before all of my characters except for gear.

On the subject of gear, since some Pathfinder is permitted, I would like to request permission to use Muleback Cords from the Advanced Players Guide.
They are a 1000 GP Wondrous item that increases your Str by 8, but only for carrying capacity.
The following explanation has been removed due to time constraints, character limits on posts, and the DC 30 Spellcraft checks to understand large portions of it.

Offline Drammor

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #96 on: July 20, 2017, 01:49:57 PM »
Muleback Cords are a-okay.

Seriously though, can I get some feedback on that Diplomacy system?
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Vladeshi

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #97 on: July 20, 2017, 02:09:57 PM »
Muleback Cords are a-okay.
Yay! I love these things.

Seriously though, can I get some feedback on that Diplomacy system?
It feels a little over-complicated and it will probably take a few uses of it before I feel that I understand it and am comfortable using it, but that is how all new mechanics feel to me.
Overall it looks good, it will probably need some playtesting to make sure that you didn't miss a huge problem, but that is why you have us. :D
You might want to also post it in the Homebrew section to see if you can get feedback from some of the posters that are not involved with this pbp.
The following explanation has been removed due to time constraints, character limits on posts, and the DC 30 Spellcraft checks to understand large portions of it.

Offline Rekmond

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #98 on: August 01, 2017, 09:28:20 AM »
It's very very quiet.
I want to be born. To live. That is all I want. -Aura

Offline Archon

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Re: Character Generation and Discussion
« Reply #99 on: August 01, 2017, 09:33:33 AM »
It's very very quiet.

I'm still here. I'm nearly done, too.