Author Topic: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?  (Read 4816 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« on: August 06, 2017, 05:49:09 PM »
Here's some good publicity to an old post I found:
For the record:  JaronK has, I would argue, a very reasonable tier system, based on quite good (but not amazing) optimization.  He has be behaved both reasonably and intelligently.

If you have a problem with the placement of one of the classes in the tiers, google for it, and if it hasn't been addressed before, start a thread, and we can all discuss the specifics.

Best,
David

I have quite the post about Psionic Artificers on the handbook discussion page, but thought I'd hear if anyone has handled the class in actual play, specifically if full transparency wasn't in play. I've already reproduced the entire (altered) class text for others to follow along about the variant. I'm mainly interested in how the variant changes the artificer class, so there's little need to get worked up about where to place the original Artificer in the tiers.

Offline Nifft

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Re: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2017, 03:44:07 PM »
I have not used nor DM'd for a Psi Artificer, but I've played and DM'd for a bunch of Psi-friendly games.

It seems to me that Psi Artificier exists in a scale of environments, and the rules environment will impact the class in ways that may change how it gets ranked.


Ridiculous: Spell-to-Power Erudite exists, and therefore all spells are Psionic powers, and therefore the Psi Artificer is a strict super-set of the regular Artificer, thus better than regular Artificer. This set of optimal environmental factors is probably where the T0 ranking comes from.


Normal (Magic-Psi Transparency): No such thing as a Spell-to-Power Erudite; you're limited to creating Psionic Items, which are pretty good, but probably not as good as Magic Items. T1 but below regular Artificer.


Psi Is Different: No such thing as StP Erudite; Psi can't be dispelled by magic; Magic can't be dispelled by Psi. Depends heavily on campaign details. Do Psionic powers work in Anti-Magic Fields? Are Anti-Magic Fields really common as a defense (e.g. Beholders are a major threat)? Is it plausible to live in a Dead Magic Zone where Psi works perfectly well?

Or, is this a high-magic world where everyone (except you) has a Spell-Like Ability, and lots of people have anti-Psi feats which screw you over?

You're still probably T1 but where you land in that tier may vary.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 05:50:40 PM »
iirc Nijineko said he'd played more than one Psi Arty.


I've sorta built a few.  My interest was in the Oopsies caused by so much Psi-X syndrome going on.   The MoE book specifically says the Psi Arty started as houserules on an Artificer.

Linked Power feat can be taken at level 1 (or retrained), Craft Dorje feat at level 3 (and retrained later), combined = one of the tricks on the Unbound Scroll PrC.  What this does is makes up for having to pay for augmenting instead of the free caster level boosting the non-psi gets.  And you can come out ahead by a bit, especially if your inner-accountant is running wild.
Dual Dorje helps on this, as does Dorje Mastery feat.  2WF stuff helps with dual dorje.
Dipping for Magic Mantle causes the psiisbokt crowd to get the willies.
The CPsi Powerstone nerf might have some there there, but it was unexplored.  Might be more an Incantatrix type thing, idk.
The level 11 ability interacts with Linked Power very very nicely.

There was a smidge of BRC written 3rd party stuff, that might work too, but nothing Psi Arty specific.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 01:15:22 AM »
Normal (Magic-Psi Transparency): No such thing as a Spell-to-Power Erudite; you're limited to creating Psionic Items, which are pretty good, but probably not as good as Magic Items. T1 but below regular Artificer.

Just wanted to point out that under normal Transparency rules, you're not limited to creating Psionic items.  Magic Item Compendium buffs the Craft Psionic Arms and Armor and Craft Universal Item feats to allow the creation of otherwise Magic items.  While you're not allowed to use UMD to mimic spells, you are allowed to use UPD to mimic powers.  Conveniently, "If an item includes a spell prerequisite, but the effect of the item does not directly implement that spell, then a psionic power of similar flavor can be substituted."
You still lose out because there's more Spells than Powers that exist in the game, and you can't create scrolls or wands of those effects.  But as long as you can find a Power that fits the vague "flavor" of a certain spell, you can fudge the prereqs enough to make an item.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 11:59:42 AM »
Here's some good publicity to an old post I found:
Quote from: Wikipedia
Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses. It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs.
I have quite the post about Psionic Artificers on the handbook discussion page, but thought I'd hear if anyone has handled the class in actual play, specifically if full transparency wasn't in play. I've already reproduced the entire (altered) class text for others to follow along about the variant. I'm mainly interested in how the variant changes the artificer class, so there's little need to get worked up about where to place the original Artificer in the tiers.
Obviously it's weaker than the normal Artificer.

Part of it goes back to WBL & the MiC's support of finding proper Magic Items, crafting has absolutely no value and if it costs a Feat to use it actually has a negative value and if that's all your Class is designed to do, well you should get the idea. The other thing is magic & it's support is better than psionics & it's support. For example, Power Storing Item becomes unable to access stuff like Wings of Cover, Friendly Fire, Planar Binding, Planar Bubble, Ice Assassin, etc. Another good example is how a real Artificer can use Metamagic Item to break Persist Spell in a party-buffing mechanic but without 3rd party (sic homebrew) support there is no such thing as "Persist Power".

Also fyi Transparency is the default rule, DMs have to choose the other one. That's why Transparency exceptions are noted in several Feats. Just like Psionic Feats crafting Magic Items is also part of the default rules (see mic232) which means a Psion has the bonus Feats to pick up crafting a "duel" crafting except he natively gets 7th, 8th, and 9th level Powers while be able able to abuse PP-loops for infinite Powers per Day while the Psionic Artificer still uses the Vancian magic system. Except, point to consider is certain Magical Items cannot be crafted using Psionics what so ever and due to the wonky wording of Bend Reality, Limited Wish can duplicate Powers but Bend Reality cannot duplicate Spells. So ultimately the title of greatest item crafter still goes to the Wizard, who doesn't even actually craft anything anyway: His Ice Assassins do all the work.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2017, 06:02:14 PM »
Leadership at level 12, and getting a cohort Yak Folk with Magic Mantle ... would mean a possible debate as to what works with it.

**

I played the 3.0e Lantan Arty in a tier 5 hell game (I was deferring and pulling punches even with that = ugh).
I almost got roped into playing the 4e Arty ... dodged a bullet there I do say.
No interest in the 5e Wiz Arty, I prefer some of other subtypes.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 06:05:05 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Nifft

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Re: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2017, 07:38:23 PM »
Normal (Magic-Psi Transparency): No such thing as a Spell-to-Power Erudite; you're limited to creating Psionic Items, which are pretty good, but probably not as good as Magic Items. T1 but below regular Artificer.

Just wanted to point out that under normal Transparency rules, you're not limited to creating Psionic items.  Magic Item Compendium buffs the Craft Psionic Arms and Armor and Craft Universal Item feats to allow the creation of otherwise Magic items.  While you're not allowed to use UMD to mimic spells, you are allowed to use UPD to mimic powers.  Conveniently, "If an item includes a spell prerequisite, but the effect of the item does not directly implement that spell, then a psionic power of similar flavor can be substituted."

You still lose out because there's more Spells than Powers that exist in the game, and you can't create scrolls or wands of those effects.  But as long as you can find a Power that fits the vague "flavor" of a certain spell, you can fudge the prereqs enough to make an item.
That's true so far as it goes, but I feel like spells and caster-emulation in general is the more powerful strategy.

For example: the Wand Surge feat + the unfettered heroism spell. That's one free use of any staff or wand each round, for the price of a 5th level slot. That means one wish per caster level for free. If your staff has both unfettered heroism and wish at a cost of 1 charge each, then you can cast wish all day for free -- just make sure you have a reusable way to kick start the process each day, maybe some schemas of unfettered heroism or a Dragonmark + that feat which lets you burn an SLA for an action point.

Casters can do exactly the same thing, of course, but they're generally not given Craft Staff for free, nor do they have guaranteed access to wish and all other spells -- but not merely guaranteed, the Artificer also gets access early (and then list-sniping to get some spells double-early).

(Eventually you'll just break down and take Wand Surge + Use Psionic Device on a staff of wish and unfettered heroism, which you bought off a REAL Artificer. You pay full retail price for the staff, just like a mere Wizard. This brings shame upon your clancestors. Your father commits seifuku.)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 04:04:10 PM »
Tashalatora works with Psi Arty.



 :tongue not sure why I posted this ... umm ...
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Endarire

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Re: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2017, 06:57:35 PM »
On a similar note, what do Artificers and Psionic Artificers do aside from crafting?  I've seen posts for archerficers and meleeficers, but I was left with the notion of, "Why not play another, better class?"

Offline linklord231

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Re: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 03:07:41 AM »
On a similar note, what do Artificers and Psionic Artificers do aside from crafting? 

Blast things with wands, mostly.  You can get some fairly decent damage out of Twin/Empower/Maximize/Split Ray Orb of X - and that's of course after you buff your party with whatever Persisted spells you can find.  Artificers can do most of the same metamagic tricks that Incantatrices (Incantatrixes?  Incantrices?) can do, but they blow through gold to do it. 

Artificers' power levels vary wildly depending on how much gold and magic item access the DM gives.  If the DM doesn't give out the necessary gold, or doesn't allow the players to buy the items they want, then the Arty is very useful.  If the DM gives out appropriate WBL and allows Magic Item Shops to exist (the default rules), then the Arty is basically just a Cohort class pretending to be a real class.  If the DM gives out WBL, and also compensates 100% for expended consumables, then the Arty goes back to being amazing because he's basically a Wizard without spell slots at that point.  He's much like a Fighter in that regard:  If the DM gives him an artifact sword, then he can play with the big boys.  If not, well...
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Has Anyone Actually built and played a Psionic Artificer?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2017, 10:32:40 AM »
On a similar note, what do Artificers and Psionic Artificers do aside from crafting?

Blast things with wands, mostly.  You can get some fairly decent damage out of Twin/Empower/Maximize/Split Ray Orb of X - and that's of course after you buff your party with whatever Persisted spells you can find.  Artificers can do most of the same metamagic tricks that Incantatrices (Incantatrixes?  Incantrices?) can do, but they blow through gold to do it. 

Artificers' power levels vary wildly depending on how much gold and magic item access the DM gives.  If the DM doesn't give out the necessary gold, or doesn't allow the players to buy the items they want, then the Arty is very useful.  If the DM gives out appropriate WBL and allows Magic Item Shops to exist (the default rules), then the Arty is basically just a Cohort class pretending to be a real class.  If the DM gives out WBL, and also compensates 100% for expended consumables, then the Rogues and Commoners goes back to being amazing because he's basically a Wizard without spell slots at that point (unless the wizard also gets free stuff).  He's much like a Fighter in that regard:  If the DM gives him an artifact sword, then he can play with the big boys.  If not, well...
+1
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 06:08:48 PM by SorO_Lost »