Author Topic: The Pricing Of Invisible (metamagic) In Scrolls  (Read 2544 times)

Offline Captnq

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The Pricing Of Invisible (metamagic) In Scrolls
« on: August 25, 2017, 07:44:05 AM »
As i've continued to explore every possible permutation of metamagic, metapsionic, psi-spell, and spell template, one thing has been nagging at me. How does one price a +0 level metamagic feat on a scroll?

At first glance, one might assume it is free. After all, +0 is Zero. However, I have a different take on it, and if I am incorrect, I challenge those of you who believe so to prove me wrong.

A fireball (SL 3) is created as a scroll at caster level 10.
3x10x25=750gp

An empowered (SL +2) fireball (SL 3) created as a scroll at CL 10 would thus be:
5x10x25=1250gp

However, one could also look at it as.

(2x10 + 3x10) x 25 = 1250 gp.

So, what happens if we remove the fireball, but keep the empower? (Yes yes, the scroll would be useless, but if I used a WISH to remove the spell but keep the empowered, what would it look like?)

Well, then we would have:

2x10x25 = 500 gp.

So. Now then. What if we had an Invisible (SL +0) Fireball, then took away the fireball?

0 x 10 x 25 = 0 gp.
Right?

WRONG.

0 level spells are treated as 1/2 level for purposes of magic item creation. In this situation, JUST invisible Metamagic feat, without the spell it is attached to, would be considered a half level. So, a scroll of just invisible metamagic feat, no spell would actually be:

0.5 x 10 x 25 = 125 gp.

So, when it comes to pricing any magic item where you add +0 spell level adjustment, you would ACTUALLY be adding +0.5 to the spell level for purposes of cost calculation.
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The Pricing Of Invisible (metamagic) In Scrolls
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2017, 03:42:00 PM »


The cost of a +0 metamagic is in learning the alternative way of performing the magic by taking the feat (which means a different preparation for prepared casters or taking extra time to do it in a particular way for spontaneous casters).

My understanding was that metamagic is rated as effective spell levels as an equivalency for the relative difficulty and power expenditure of modifying the spell, which would make a +0 spell no different than a minor change to the formula.

While I would approve of tacking on a cantrip cost to the scrolls (for balance reasons, explained ingame as relative rarity), I wouldn't try to make the case that some underlying formula supports it. Metamagic costs are not spells, they are modifiers to the spell slot cost of a spell.


Counterchallenge: Give us something in the rules that says your claim is actually valid. Your entire premise is based on a theoretical scroll that can't exist within the rules except by the "make shit up" section of Wish.

A 0 level spell is treated as 1/2 of a spell level. That is true.
A +0 metamagic is NOT a 0 level spell. It is a +0 modifier to the casting cost of a spell.

Offline altpersona

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Re: The Pricing Of Invisible (metamagic) In Scrolls
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2017, 06:39:08 PM »
as house rules go, +0 = .5 seems very reasonable...

otherwise i lean more toward Nyt's thinking.
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Offline Skyrock

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Re: The Pricing Of Invisible (metamagic) In Scrolls
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2017, 07:13:39 PM »
Gonna back up Nytemare. A small cost increase to reflect the added versatility of Invisible Metamagic is good for balance, but by RAW +0 Metamagic like Invisible doesn't alter the costs.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: The Pricing Of Invisible (metamagic) In Scrolls
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2017, 07:04:30 PM »
It doesn't matter too much. Scrolls are part of teh brokenzor core materiel. They are like partially charged wands for but you can put anything in it.

And that's before metamagicks.

Offline Endarire

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Re: The Pricing Of Invisible (metamagic) In Scrolls
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2017, 09:22:42 PM »
By RAW, +0 spell slot metamagic is the same price.  Ask your GM what price mods exist.

Offline mrttao

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Re: The Pricing Of Invisible (metamagic) In Scrolls
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2017, 03:33:22 AM »
As i've continued to explore every possible permutation of metamagic, metapsionic, psi-spell, and spell template, one thing has been nagging at me. How does one price a +0 level metamagic feat on a scroll?

At first glance, one might assume it is free. After all, +0 is Zero. However, I have a different take on it, and if I am incorrect, I challenge those of you who believe so to prove me wrong.

The cost increase to the production of a scroll with a +0 metamagic feat is zero.
The cost to buy/sell them in a market should be slightly higher due to the rarity and increased skill of the creator. (the creator had to waste a feat slot for this)

That said, scrolls are really sub par compared to anything else. Like wands.

The only reasons to use a scroll (instead of selling it for cash) is:
1. It is a really rare spell that you cannot pay another wizard to copy from a trade spellbook.
2. You are a level 1 wizard, you received scribe scroll for free, and can't yet make wands, so you need to keep a stock of 20 sleep scrolls to make you into an overpowered murder machine.
3. You don't have a means to get a handy haversack (free action to withdraw a wand in combat) and want to put multiple different spells on a single scroll (yes, you can do that!)
4. it is a very situational spell that you will only use a few times so not worth wanding, despite the inefficiency of scrolls
5. you don't want to take item crafting feats, and are a wizard (have free scribe scroll)

... actually in retrospect, nevermind, scrolls are good
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 03:46:27 AM by mrttao »

Offline snakeman830

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Re: The Pricing Of Invisible (metamagic) In Scrolls
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 07:14:27 PM »
As i've continued to explore every possible permutation of metamagic, metapsionic, psi-spell, and spell template, one thing has been nagging at me. How does one price a +0 level metamagic feat on a scroll?

At first glance, one might assume it is free. After all, +0 is Zero. However, I have a different take on it, and if I am incorrect, I challenge those of you who believe so to prove me wrong.

The cost increase to the production of a scroll with a +0 metamagic feat is zero.
The cost to buy/sell them in a market should be slightly higher due to the rarity and increased skill of the creator. (the creator had to waste a feat slot for this)

That said, scrolls are really sub par compared to anything else. Like wands.

The only reasons to use a scroll (instead of selling it for cash) is:
1. It is a really rare spell that you cannot pay another wizard to copy from a trade spellbook.
2. You are a level 1 wizard, you received scribe scroll for free, and can't yet make wands, so you need to keep a stock of 20 sleep scrolls to make you into an overpowered murder machine.
3. You don't have a means to get a handy haversack (free action to withdraw a wand in combat) and want to put multiple different spells on a single scroll (yes, you can do that!)
4. it is a very situational spell that you will only use a few times so not worth wanding, despite the inefficiency of scrolls
5. you don't want to take item crafting feats, and are a wizard (have free scribe scroll)

... actually in retrospect, nevermind, scrolls are good
Don't forget that Scrolls aren't limited to level 4 and below spells.  Scrolls are perfect for higher level spells that you won't use often, but when you need it, you need it.

Examples: Revivify and Break Enchantment.
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