Author Topic: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization  (Read 857 times)

Offline Gruftzwerg

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Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« on: October 08, 2017, 03:09:40 AM »
Duskblade 13 / Recaster 5 / Bloodstorm Blade 2

"Welcome to my 2nd build I would like to showcase (and backup^^) here"  :)

The idea to the build was born while I was working on my Hammerdin of Moradin build and still inherits some of the fluff that is related to Hammerdin build from the game Diablo (2/3) but ain't restricted to hammers thrown.

(click to show/hide)

As a thought-lesson I had the urge to make a build who is focused on the Arcane Channeling ability of the duskblade class.

The most recommend spell (as guides already suggest) seems to be Shivering Touch which we need to get via Recaster (since it ain't a duskblade spell).

To add more awesomeness we add Bloodstorm Blade 2 to get Trow Anything, the Returning ability and Thunderous Throw which lets our ranged attacks count as melee again. If we add Whirlwind Attack on top of it, we have finished the "Shivering Tornado of Death".

And don't forget to empower+maximize via Recaster for maximum fun.
23.25 Dex dmg (average 18 + 3d6/2) to everything in range of your Trow Anything + Thunderous Throw + Whirlwind Attack (range increment of 10ft x5 = 50ft range / with Far Shot active up to 100ft!; -2 to hit for each increment above 10/20ft).
Add a keen Falchion for increased crit range (since Ability dmg can crit  :D).

FUN FACT: It gets even more silly when you think about the fact that the "Shivering Tornado of Death" can distinguish between friend or foe thx due to Whirlwind Attack only targeting your opponents in reach! Muhahaha ah ha  :lol

The 2nd spell from Expanded Knowledge need to be "Heroics". Before entering Bloodstorm Blade, you need to cast it and give you Point Blank Shot. Once you entered the PrC you don't need to bother anymore with PBS and can use it for Far Shot to double your range (up to 100ft!) or something else you want (Imp. Initiative? or speed up your epic feat progression for Distant Shot?) or just ignore the spell.


Epic Feat progression:

> Far Shot
> Point Blank Shot (just needed as prerequisite for..)
> Distant Shot

With "Distant Shot", the build can hit anything it can see/spot without any penalty at all.

"There shall stand no enemy in my sight! Crumble and shiver to death!"


As always I hope for some feedback and response^^
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 06:54:21 AM by Gruftzwerg »

Online SorO_Lost

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Re: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2017, 12:36:11 PM »
As always I hope for some feedback and response
I'm not sure Range Increments has anything to do with Whirlwind's limitation of being within your Reach but you can replace Recaster, use a Runestaff to access the Spell and there are better ways to reduce Metamagic cost without limiting your self to a twice per day trick.

Also, to scale a Sorcerer/Martial Adept/JPM can cast a Smiting Storm/Scalding Touch and use Adamantine Hurricane to deal his melee damage, +9d6/+13d6 damage, plus a Save vs Stun/Dazed, with a +4 bonus to Attack Rolls, to each opponent within reach, and can hit them each of them twice. Then I suppose if you wanted to get into it some, Raging Mongoose can give you another two attacks against the main threat and if the user were a Necropoliton with a Greater Wounding Marrow Finding Lifedrinker each hit would deal 3 Con damage and 1 Negative Level which helps to prevent them from making their Save so they lose a turn and you can smack them some more with your triple threat of death. So steal some ideas here or something.

But, welcome addition either way.
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Offline Gruftzwerg

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Re: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2017, 02:17:20 PM »
As always I hope for some feedback and response
I'm not sure Range Increments has anything to do with Whirlwind's limitation of being within your Reach but you can replace Recaster, use a Runestaff to access the Spell and there are better ways to reduce Metamagic cost without limiting your self to a twice per day trick.

Also, to scale a Sorcerer/Martial Adept/JPM can cast a Smiting Storm/Scalding Touch and use Adamantine Hurricane to deal his melee damage, +9d6/+13d6 damage, plus a Save vs Stun/Dazed, with a +4 bonus to Attack Rolls, to each opponent within reach, and can hit them each of them twice. Then I suppose if you wanted to get into it some, Raging Mongoose can give you another two attacks against the main threat and if the user were a Necropoliton with a Greater Wounding Marrow Finding Lifedrinker each hit would deal 3 Con damage and 1 Negative Level which helps to prevent them from making their Save so they lose a turn and you can smack them some more with your triple threat of death. So steal some ideas here or something.

But, welcome addition either way.

@WW & reach:
I had the discussion on the other board too. I know it's cheesy (BSB prc), but that's how it works..
We have rules for "Reach Weapons", "Natural Reach due to Size" and for "Threatened Squares", but no special explanation of "reach" itself (= no keyword). So we fall back to default english definition of "reach" which covers that fine. Further anything that defines a reach weapon is given. So there is no room to complain by RAW. If you can find a clear definition of (just only!) "reach" in 3.5 that contradicts this, I would be happy to see it.
Another important indicator is, that the Thunderous Throw ability is especially limited to "end of your turn" and not the more regular/common used "end of turn". An ability/effect if only limited to end of your turn (a less used term) if they really need to limit you due to balance reasons. And that's the case here. Otherwise BSB would also threaten those squares too making it totally op. That's the reason (imho) why it is limited to "end of your turn".

@Recaster, Runestaff, Metamagic, Smiting Storm/Scalding Touch
First the build is optimized around Shivering Touch, which deals DEX dmg and not HP dmg. Most enemies have a Dex score of less than 20 which means that this build oneshots almost everything it hits with the ranged WW. No Save, No SR, just I win & all enemies in range lose. Other spells can't compete with Shivering Touch in this point/build.
Since Shivering Touch is not a Duskblade spell, I need to get it via Recaster (Wyrm Wizard would have been the other option for this). Recaster needs 2 metamagic feats to qualify. The Runestaffs would be just there to have more charges per day. Further for most enemies just maximize (18 DEX dmg) is enough to kill em and empower ain't needed at all.
And because we want to use Whirlwind (Full Attack) with our Arcane Channeling ability, we need 13 lvls of Duskbalde to do this.

The build is straight and has nor room for changes. But it accomplishes everything it has to imho. Sure it's a build that kick in on the later lvls, but it's a build that can still hold water even in most lvl 20 and 20+ campaigns. So there is a niche for it imho.

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Re: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2017, 04:17:42 PM »
If you can find a clear definition of (just only!) "reach" in 3.5 that contradicts this, I would be happy to see it.
That's impossible. See "Reach", not "natural reach" which is you adding a word that's not there to claim the meaning is different, is a property of a Creature's Size. And a listed characteristic in stat blocks. And has it's own further defined entry under AoOs & combat. And Google/Oxford define reach as both a verb and noun to mean something in arm's length which isn't how you're trying to use the word or claim it means. But you have ignored everyone on GitP that have already told you this and posted it here, receiving the same exact points as before. Clearly there is nothing in the world that you'll accept as a "clear definition".

First the build is optimized around Shivering Touch
If that were the case I'd use a standard Metamagic cost reduction build with Reach/Chained/Widened Shivering Touch in some Arcane Fusions as spell option instead of a dedicated build to deal an even higher amount of Dexterity damage to a 60ft area. Spell Thematics can even make it look like you're tossing a giant ghostly golden hammer just like Diablo too. And you'd still have enough room to gish out so you can run around in armor and even stack on some auras too.

which deals DEX dmg and not HP dmg.
I quit playing years ago, did the Diablo 2 hammerdin nerf changed them from dealing unresistant hit point damage (like a scorching scalding touch spell) to preventing their opponent from walking away?

Also there was an officially released Diablo 2 d20 product, you should check it out. We don't get many comments on published books outside of the official ones. Optimizing D2 builds is virtually untouched.

No Save, No SR, just I win & all enemies in range lose.
:huh
Quote from: Shivering Touch
Spell Resistance: Yes

but it's a build that can still hold water even in most lvl 20 and 20+ campaigns. So there is a niche for it imho.
You need to roll a 19 (10% chance) to even affect an equal CRed Pit Fiend and it only works twice per day in a game that wants you to face four Encounters a day. And even if you overlook SR the one trick it dedicated it's self to struggles for success against some of the lowest monsters out of the ELH, the CR21 Chichimec & CR22 Anaxim, because they both require you to roll higher than average to even deplete their Dexterity. (edit: bad examples, both are immune to ability damage so their high dexterity doesn't matter)

You'll forever hate me over this exchange but stick around. Participating in a forum will do you some good and in a couple years you can come back and revisit it to make it even more powerful than before.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 04:39:50 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Gruftzwerg

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Re: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2017, 09:24:12 AM »
If you can find a clear definition of (just only!) "reach" in 3.5 that contradicts this, I would be happy to see it.
That's impossible. See "Reach", not "natural reach" which is you adding a word that's not there to claim the meaning is different, is a property of a Creature's Size. And a listed characteristic in stat blocks. And has it's own further defined entry under AoOs & combat. And Google/Oxford define reach as both a verb and noun to mean something in arm's length which isn't how you're trying to use the word or claim it means. But you have ignored everyone on GitP that have already told you this and posted it here, receiving the same exact points as before. Clearly there is nothing in the world that you'll accept as a "clear definition".
If you have read the post on gitp than you know how the discussion went. No one could provide a clear definition "reach" from the rules. A single column in a table doesn't explain anything, it's just a value.
If you look up the definition of reach weapons, everything demanded is provided by BSB Thunderous Throw ability. You have the ability to attack enemies not ancient to you with a melee attack/weapon. The ability enables me to do exactly that. If you can lead me to a real definition of "reach" in 3.5 terms, bold written as pharagraph with explaining text that trumps the regular english definition or as title for a table, than we can talk.

Here you have the 3.5 Glossary.
Look it up:
You'll find, natural reach, reach weapons, but not "reach" itself. If you can find a definition in 3.5 show me. And no, just the usage of the regular english word "reach" in the middle of a sentence or for a single column doesn't define/explain anything. Keyword need to be clearly declared, otherwise it's undefined. As I said on the gitp board, this is true for any kind of rule text and laws. You can't expect people to look the entire rules/laws to find every use of a single word to make sure you didn't miss any keywords. This would take forever and ain't practical. You need to define words clearly visible to prevent this type of discussions.



First the build is optimized around Shivering Touch
If that were the case I'd use a standard Metamagic cost reduction build with Reach/Chained/Widened Shivering Touch in some Arcane Fusions as spell option instead of a dedicated build to deal an even higher amount of Dexterity damage to a 60ft area. Spell Thematics can even make it look like you're tossing a giant ghostly golden hammer just like Diablo too. And you'd still have enough room to gish out so you can run around in armor and even stack on some auras too.
which deals DEX dmg and not HP dmg.
I quit playing years ago, did the Diablo 2 hammerdin nerf changed them from dealing unresistant hit point damage (like a scorching scalding touch spell) to preventing their opponent from walking away?

I said: "still inherits some of the fluff that is related to Hammerdin build from the game Diablo (2/3) but ain't restricted to hammers thrown." Did I say, this is the D2 Hammerdin? If you would pay attention when you read my stuff, maybe we would have lesser confusion.
And the fluff that the build still inherits is the "whirling weapon around you".
And as already said: I need either Recaster or Wyrm Wizard to get Shivering Touch on my spell list. Recaster is the better solution, since the metamagic abilities are useful compared to the stuff Wyrm Wizard would give.
Sure you could go for a "standard Metamagic cost reduction build" as you said, but the amount of cheese/reduction needed won't be allowed on many tables. And that was not my intend. My Intend was a Arcane Channeling build. If you would like to make a build with standard Metamagic cost reduction, it's you choice.


Also there was an officially released Diablo 2 d20 product, you should check it out. We don't get many comments on published books outside of the official ones. Optimizing D2 builds is virtually untouched.
I had the box, but most stuff got lost over the years.. But as said, it was just a tiny bit of fluff that inspired me to this build, nothing else.

No Save, No SR, just I win & all enemies in range lose.
:huh
Quote from: Shivering Touch
Spell Resistance: Yes

but it's a build that can still hold water even in most lvl 20 and 20+ campaigns. So there is a niche for it imho.
You need to roll a 19 (10% chance) to even affect an equal CRed Pit Fiend and it only works twice per day in a game that wants you to face four Encounters a day. And even if you overlook SR the one trick it dedicated it's self to struggles for success against some of the lowest monsters out of the ELH, the CR21 Chichimec & CR22 Anaxim, because they both require you to roll higher than average to even deplete their Dexterity. (edit: bad examples, both are immune to ability damage so their high dexterity doesn't matter)
Oh, somehow I did got the SR part wrong in my mind, sry for that..^^. But since the build is focused on that ability/spell, you should expect items to compensate that at least a bit.
And only the metamagic boosters are limited per daily use. The build can still spam WW with Shivering Touch "normal" each round (and kill everything within a few rounds). Further, you won't need maximize & empower at the same time for most encounters. Maximize is enough for most enemies. So you can save your daily charges for the important stuff.

You'll forever hate me over this exchange but stick around. Participating in a forum will do you some good and in a couple years you can come back and revisit it to make it even more powerful than before.
I don't hate you. I'll really like to discuss rules and that's what we are doing^^. It's just that neither of us could convince the other so far, but that's life/normal on boards and in reality  :)

Online SorO_Lost

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Re: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2017, 05:32:27 AM »
Clearly there is nothing in the world that you'll accept as a "clear definition".
If you have read the post on gitp than you know how the discussion went. No one could provide a clear definition "reach" from the rules.
:eh

I need either Recaster or Wyrm Wizard to get Shivering Touch on my spell list.
18,000gp or less says you can get it on your Duskblade's List without using either of those.

but the amount of cheese/reduction needed won't be allowed on many tables.
I just want to lampshade this for a moment, please repeat out loud. "My original assumption was based on redefining reach and overlooking several key details to create, as I previously described it, "just I win & all enemies in range lose" build using several books, a very potent PrC that reduces metamagic costs anyway, and one of the most powerful ability-damage-based spells in the game in a clear combination they were not intended to be."
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 01:04:38 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2017, 07:15:50 PM »
The Rules Compedium has a definition for Reach on pg18 (in the section covering AoOs):

Quote
Reach
Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of
only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks
only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However,
Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons might
threaten more squares than a typical creature. Creatures larger
than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more, so they
threaten all squares within that reach, including diagonal ones.
Creatures smaller than Small typically have a natural reach of
0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. Since
they have no natural reach, such creatures don’t threaten the
squares around them at all. See Size, page 116.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 07:35:29 PM by TC X0 Lt 0X »
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Offline Nifft

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Re: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2017, 07:23:20 PM »
Spring Attack requires BAB +4, so you can't take it at level 3.

Expanded Knowledge is a [Psionic] feat that learns you a power, not a spell feat for spell-spellers what spell up spells.


Those are two of the shallower flaws; I see the deeper dysfunctions have already been addressed.

Offline Gruftzwerg

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Re: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 06:53:27 AM »
The Rules Compedium has a definition for Reach on pg18 (in the section covering AoOs):

Quote
Reach
Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of
only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks
only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However,
Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons might
threaten more squares than a typical creature. Creatures larger
than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more, so they
threaten all squares within that reach, including diagonal ones.
Creatures smaller than Small typically have a natural reach of
0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. Since
they have no natural reach, such creatures don’t threaten the
squares around them at all. See Size, page 116.

"Most creatures" = no strict rule / but doesn't affect the discussed ability anyway

Later the text just talks about reach weapons and creatures smaller than small. Again nothing that affects the BSB ability.
I don't see how the text helps you to rule against it??

As far as I see, there ain't been provided any reliable rules that would be against the way I interpreted the BSB ability rule-wise. I'm still open, if you can point me to something I may have missed,. But as said, I already have worked for a longer time on this topic and I am very confident with my point of view.


Spring Attack requires BAB +4, so you can't take it at level 3.

Expanded Knowledge is a [Psionic] feat that learns you a power, not a spell feat for spell-spellers what spell up spells.


Those are two of the shallower flaws; I see the deeper dysfunctions have already been addressed.

Oh yeah, seem to have missed the SA BAB requirement. But could be solved with feat rearrangement (take Empower @lvl3 and delay the rest).

And the build is talking about the Expanded Knowledge "ability" of the Recaster, not the psionic feat!

PS: Sorry for the delay in my response, I did had to much RL stuff to do the the past weeks.. ;)

btw: the intention of the build was a solid duskblade WW build which can hold it's own in most (combat) situation. Sure you can build more powerful builds with full casters and such, but that was not the intention. My intention was to take a medicore class, namely Duskblade, combined with another medicore Feat (WW) and make it into a deadly build.  The build leaves still enough room to be playable on most tables and can still be easily countered if needed by the DM.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 06:55:27 AM by Gruftzwerg »

Online SorO_Lost

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Re: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2017, 10:12:01 AM »
"Most creatures" = no strict rule / but doesn't affect the discussed ability anyway
Actually several creatures have natural reach, and you can get grafts/spells/items/feats to increase it further, and by using that phasing it can cover all exceptions and include yours within it. But the difference between those creatures and your arguments is they have rules stating they can and you're unable to understand the difference because you choose not to. And that's just one of the reasons why you've got three people here, and several others else where, telling you that you're wrong.

But as said, I already have worked for a longer time on this topic and I am very confident with my point of view.
Of course, you're a normal human for your generation & age. Just like everyone else.

The Backfire Effect
The Misconception: When your beliefs are challenged with facts, you alter your opinions and incorporate the new information into your thinking.
The Truth: When your deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, your beliefs get stronger.


So follow along with them and go a head and blame something.
btw: the intention of the build was a solid duskblade WW build which can hold it's own in most (combat) situation. Sure you can build more powerful builds with full casters and such, but that was not the intention.
Yeah just like that. Maybe in a few years you can revisit this.  :)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 10:21:46 AM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Gruftzwerg

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Re: Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2017, 09:20:34 AM »
"Most creatures" = no strict rule / but doesn't affect the discussed ability anyway
Actually several creatures have natural reach, and you can get grafts/spells/items/feats to increase it further, and by using that phasing it can cover all exceptions and include yours within it. But the difference between those creatures and your arguments is they have rules stating they can and you're unable to understand the difference because you choose not to. And that's just one of the reasons why you've got three people here, and several others else where, telling you that you're wrong.

As already said:
"Most Creatures" doesn't force you into any rules. It just talks about how most creatures and reach weapons work. The sole part that somewhat defines Reach (in the Rules Compendium) is "Threatened Squares".

Further:
Quote from: Reach from Rules Compendium
.., so they
threaten all squares within that reach, including diagonal ones.
Quote from: Threatened Squares from Rules Compendium
If you’re considered armed, you threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack,...

-Reach & Threatened Squares (General Rules) gets Trumped by Thunderous Throw (Special Rule)-

Because Thunderous Throw allows me to make melee attacks (until end of my turn) up to 50ft away, I threaten them until end of my turn (which means no AoO in most chases since it's only on my turn).
And if I threaten them (until end of my turn..), they have to be within my reach.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't see any evidence so far, why it shoudn't work. Only facts (imho) why it should work. So pls give me more details about your opinion: how the rules work (in your opinion), or what I may have missed/failed on my thoughts?

______

again thx for the feedback, your interest & time to everybody  :)