Author Topic: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven  (Read 835 times)

Offline Ryshin

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Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« on: February 13, 2018, 03:44:03 PM »
Hello, i'm trying to build and optimize a sneaky wizard.
The core classes are:
-rogue (to gain access to the unseen seer)
-unseen seer for advanced learning to get the ranger spell hunter's eye
-incantatrix to persist hunter's eye and divine power from arcane disciple (war) for full BAB

the core talents are Arcane disciple with war domanin and item familiar to maximize spellcraft and persist even lv9 spells

Before asking the first question here it is the hunter's eye spell description
Hunter's Eye:
Divination
Level: Ranger 2, Consecrated Harrier 2,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round

Your vision blurs for a moment.
When it clears, you can see through your enemies' skin to spot their arteries, organs, and other vulnerable points.
Your slice into a foe with uncanny precision, allowing you to strike a foe's vulnerable points and deal extra damage.
This spell grants you the sneak attack ability.
You deal an extra 1d6 points of damage per three caster levels.
If you already have the sneak attack ability, this damage stacks with it.


My question is: can i use the rogue variant to get an extra talent (that i will later use for the chaos shuffle combo) and by doing so renoucing to the sneak attack ability but still be able to get later on when i can persist hunter's eye the talent Craven due to the fact that Hunter's eye while is persisted give me the sneak attack ability?

Thanks

Offline Solo

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2018, 12:43:33 AM »
I do not believe so.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2018, 01:13:53 AM »
It’s really a question for your dm. I’ve seen arguments both ways. There’s a precedent for it somewhat on complete warrior, page 13 or 18 or something like that. It talks about a blackguard losing his class features if hit by something that lowered his strength below 13 (causing him to lose access to power attack, a prerequisite), but regaining them when the condition is removed.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2018, 11:41:02 AM »
Can you even prove you'll even be benefiting from Hunter's Eye at the exact moment you will level up to even select the Feat?  :plot

Also, not sure what "talent" is but given the chaos shuffle reference I'm pretty sure you meant Feat. And your Character would be better off with the Rogue's Sneak Attack rather than waiting until you can blow XP on 8th level Spells to make up for earlier choices. Just take a level of Rogue and swap out Trap Sense for the ability to Sneak Attack pretty much anything out of Dungeonscape.

If you're DM is letting you shuffle Feats you'd be better off using Elf or something instead of even worrying about trying to pick up Feats Otherwise just start out with a Human Rogue with Flaws to pick up Craven, Darkstalker, Extend & Persist, 4 Ranks in the needed Skills and to bump their cap up to Class-Skill, and you can still deal half your SA damage to Flanked Golems/Undead. Then you can just go pure caster after that.

Edit
It’s really a question for your dm. I’ve seen arguments both ways. There’s a precedent for it somewhat on complete warrior,
It doesn't include Spells through so it's not quite a precedent.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 01:58:46 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2018, 07:00:25 PM »
Urban savant
http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/urban-savant/index.html
Can get you into unseen seer with no lost cl’s. Put off craven till you get sa from us.
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Offline Vladeshi

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2018, 08:23:17 PM »
Put off craven till you get sa from us.

Unfortunately Unseen Seer does not grant Sneak Attack, it only increases existing Sneak Attack(or Sudden Strike, or Skirmish).
The following explanation has been removed due to time constraints, character limits on posts, and the DC 30 Spellcraft checks to understand large portions of it.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2018, 09:28:35 PM »
That’s a pretty strict interpretation
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Offline Vladeshi

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2018, 11:33:20 PM »
That’s a pretty strict interpretation

I will admit that I never thought of it as strict, it always just seemed to be the obvious meaning to me.

Full text for convenience.

Quote from: Complete Mage
Damage Bonus: At 1st level, the extra damage you deal
with your sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike ability
increases by 1d6. If you have more than one of these abilities, only one ability gains this increase (choose each time
you gain this benefit).
Your sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike damage
increases by another 1d6 at 4th level, 7th level, and 10th
level.

If any table I played at allowed it to grant Sneak Attack, I think I would be laughing all the way to the BBEG, have a heart attack, check if our DM has had a heart attack,
probably roll up a Wizard/Spellwarp Sniper/Unseen Seer just because I could(because I always wanted to, but I could never justify to myself playing a Blaster/Sniper caster when I could be a summoner, or a necromancer, or a War Weaver, etc.).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 12:00:51 AM by Vladeshi »
The following explanation has been removed due to time constraints, character limits on posts, and the DC 30 Spellcraft checks to understand large portions of it.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2018, 02:05:04 AM »
Other similar classes typically spell out their intent that if you don’t already have the ability then they don’t grant it. This one doesn’t say that. So by inference it should grant it.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2018, 11:17:06 AM »
It doesn't say it because it says it increases the extra damage you deal with X.

It's like arguing Words of Creation gives you Bardic Music because it can increase the bonus it grants. :banghead
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Offline Solo

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2018, 12:04:52 PM »
A level in Arcane Trickster first is called for, if that is the interpretation.

Although I'd let it slide.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 12:06:55 PM by Solo »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2018, 12:32:13 PM »
A level in Arcane Trickster first is called for, if that is the interpretation.
I think you're just trying to complicate things since Arcane Trickster requires Sneak Attack to even enter in the first place.

How about this, get a CL18 Wand of Hunter's Eye and use a Minor Schema of Metamagic Item for less than the price of a +6 Enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Persist the Spell for the next fifty days anyway. Problem solved without even needing to touch the Unseen Seer or the Incantatrix or even needing the Wizard.
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

Offline Solo

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2018, 07:39:08 PM »
A level in Arcane Trickster first is called for, if that is the interpretation.
I think you're just trying to complicate things since Arcane Trickster requires Sneak Attack to even enter in the first place.

You're right. What was that arcane prestige class that grants sneak attack? I swear there was one.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2018, 07:48:42 PM »
Unseen seer ;)
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2018, 07:53:59 PM »
You're right. What was that arcane prestige class that grants sneak attack? I swear there was one.
You might be thinking of Spellwarp Sniper except it's not really Sneak Attack. There is a few PrCs but they are kind of limited, like Magelord takes five Feats & Evasion to enter while Invisible Blade only works with Daggers and there is a Dragon-specific version in one of the books. Sadly Shadowbane Stalker is Divine based.
Would you die if you jumped from my perceived ego to your IQ? - Is 15secs of confirmation bias a goal post worth arguing for? - Ever asked a "victim" what they did to deserve it? - Are the words teen, SJW, & liberal synonyms? - "Only Sith deals in absolutes" contains a misspelled word.

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"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Keldar

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2018, 06:59:45 PM »
A level in Arcane Trickster first is called for, if that is the interpretation.
I think you're just trying to complicate things since Arcane Trickster requires Sneak Attack to even enter in the first place.

You're right. What was that arcane prestige class that grants sneak attack? I swear there was one.
Daggerspell Mage (CAdv) requires SA to get in, but gives SA at third level without any improvement clause.  So would at least stabilize any entry shenanigans.

Offline Ryshin

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2018, 01:51:52 PM »
Thanks to all of you, in the end i've decided to go with the rogue route to don't argue with my GM, the pg is gonna be pp as fuck anyway so better not leave anything in his hands for interpretation.

The full progression is gonna be:

Domain Elf Combat Wizard 1
Rogue 1
Domain Elf Combat Wizard 2
Domain Elf Combat Wizard 3
Domain Elf Combat Wizard 4
Domain Elf Combat Wizard 5
Incantatrix 1
Incantatrix 2
Incantatrix 3
Incantatrix 4
Unseen Seer 1
Unseen Seer 2
Spellguard of Silverymoon 1
Spellguard of Silverymoon 2
Spellguard of Silverymoon 3
Spellguard of Silverymoon 4
Spellguard of Silverymoon 5
Olin Gisir 1
Paragnostic Apostle 1
Paragnostic Apostle 2

Feats:

Mother Cyst, Precise Shot, Collegiate Wizard,Point Blank Shot
Item Familiar
Iron Will (Otyugh Hole Complete Scoundrel p.151)
Arcane Disciple(Competition), Spontaneous Divination (Variant)
Extended Spell
Craven
Persistent Spell
Combat Casting
Maximize Spell
Mobile-Spellcasting
Reach Spell
Feats gained with chaos shuffle by trading the 4 elves weapon feats: Dragontouched, Split Ray, Practical Metamagic (Maximize Spell), Arcane Thesis (Shivering Touch)
Spell Mastery, Random Bonus Metamagic Feat->(chaos shuffle :Singature Spell Shivering Touch)

So basically i'm gonna make a sneaky gish that can cast as a swift actrion a maximized, reach and splitted shivering touch for -36dex and then make a full attack with a composite longbow with persisted Hunter's eye, greater blink (to secure the sneak attack), divine power, wraithstrike, bite of the werebear, arcane spellsurge (with the mobile spellcasting combo to switch casting time to standard if needed) and ANTIMAGIC FIELD thanks to spellguard of silverymoon selective spell ability.

I'hope my DM won't regret saying to all of us "do your best to impress me" and i hope he's gonna be up to the task since the other players are gonna play broken characters too, i only know one is gonna be the cheater of mystra. I wouldn't know as a DM myself where to start to master this kind of PP characters especially since we are starting at lvl15 so with an almost fully functional build.

That being said got any suggestions to improve it more?

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2018, 02:31:48 PM »
Is it possible to shift your feat order around to take the rogue level at first? That would boost your skill points significantly. And your DM is seriously going to let you do the Chaos Feat shuffle thing? I don't think I've ever seen that in an actual game...
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Unseen Seer optimization - Persisted Hunter's Eye and Craven
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2018, 01:46:35 AM »
Pretty sure you could cut the rogue level by using 2 feats for Martial Stance:  Assassin's Stance. 
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