Author Topic: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread  (Read 17385 times)

Offline nijineko

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2013, 12:49:39 PM »
Copied from my post in Ask A Question...

"
Slightly tangential, but Extraordinary Artisan (as well as Exceptional and Legendary) are [Item Creation] feats, and thereby legal targets for Magical Artisan, so MA applies to everything (because those three feats always apply).

no it does not. if you reread the feat you will notice the part: "When determining your cost in XP and raw materials for creating items with this feat, multiply the base price by 75%".

the feats (extraordinary, exceptional, legendary) you are trying to target itself does not create an item, it merely adjusts the cost of of making a magic item with a different feat, so magical artisan cannot apply to it. you have to apply magical artisan to a feat which actually results in a magic item.

of course, i'm sure people will argue the raw and rai of the interpretation of the words, so... whatever the dm decides in their own game, ne?
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2013, 01:03:43 PM »
Was about to say the same
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Offline nijineko

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2013, 02:22:18 PM »
Was about to say the same

you've been niji'd.  :eh
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2013, 04:34:41 PM »
Hey I only took awhile to check into it, and saw yours before even typing
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Offline Bastian

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2013, 05:13:29 PM »
Copied from my post in Ask A Question...

"
Slightly tangential, but Extraordinary Artisan (as well as Exceptional and Legendary) are [Item Creation] feats, and thereby legal targets for Magical Artisan, so MA applies to everything (because those three feats always apply).

no it does not. if you reread the feat you will notice the part: "When determining your cost in XP and raw materials for creating items with this feat, multiply the base price by 75%".

the feats (extraordinary, exceptional, legendary) you are trying to target itself does not create an item, it merely adjusts the cost of of making a magic item with a different feat, so magical artisan cannot apply to it. you have to apply magical artisan to a feat which actually results in a magic item.

of course, i'm sure people will argue the raw and rai of the interpretation of the words, so... whatever the dm decides in their own game, ne?
That would be true if the highlighted part said something like 'using this feat to create an item.' Instead it using a more ambiguous form which can be interpreted to indicate that it can be used if you are applying the feat to an item creation process. I personally don't like the fact that this interpretation is valid but sadly it is.

Offline Forumowicz

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2013, 05:31:21 PM »
It is pretty hard to argue that the statement "I created my magic weapon with extraordinary artisan feat." is invalid.

Offline nijineko

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2013, 06:43:51 PM »
It is pretty hard to argue that the statement "I created my magic weapon with extraordinary artisan feat." is invalid.

conversely, it is pretty easy to argue that the extraordinary artisan feat does not create a magic item in and of itself.
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Offline Bastian

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2013, 07:26:58 PM »
It is pretty hard to argue that the statement "I created my magic weapon with extraordinary artisan feat." is invalid.

conversely, it is pretty easy to argue that the extraordinary artisan feat does not create a magic item in and of itself.
And it doesn't need to as that isn't what the requirement is as I pointed out in my previous post.

Offline nijineko

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2013, 12:16:10 PM »
It is pretty hard to argue that the statement "I created my magic weapon with extraordinary artisan feat." is invalid.

conversely, it is pretty easy to argue that the extraordinary artisan feat does not create a magic item in and of itself.
And it doesn't need to as that isn't what the requirement is as I pointed out in my previous post.

i did understand that point. i guess i'm just disagreeing with that as the correct RAI. nonetheless, it certainly could be interpreted that way. ^^
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2013, 12:33:07 PM »
 :eh
but you could also argue that it doesn't help at all, since you can't create items with specifically the chosen feat (exceptional, extraordinary, or legendary artisan), and a total waste of a feat.

find an item that has one of those three feats as its prereq? i really really doubt there is one out there
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Offline Gazzien

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2013, 07:52:00 PM »
-shrug- I was pointing out you can appear to do it by RAW (the interpretation held by Forumowicz), but it doesn't really matter.

Honestly, though, what sane DM would let you get to a 3% craft cost, anyways, in a real game? :P

I guess if you're going high-op, but nevermind. It was my interpretation, doesn't particularly matter. However, I now did the math!
Without Bind Elemental (and assuming Magical Artisan is on something else), you're at a little over 4.7% of base price.
With Bind Elemental (assuming you found a khyber shard, made your check, and bound a Colossal elemental), you're at a bit over 3.8% of the base price.

The difference there is about 0.9%, so you have to be able to get a Khyber shard for less than 0.9% of the item's base price in order to make Bind Elemental worth it (this part was my main point anyways, not Magical Artisan), which means that at the average market price of 750gp, it's only worth it for items over 83,333.33 (infinite repeating) gp in base price.

Unless someone has a cheaper and easier way to get Khyber Shards? (Not all campaign worlds can just hop into the Dragon Below, let alone having that be practical every time you want to make an item)

Offline Bastian

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2013, 12:50:59 AM »
It is pretty hard to argue that the statement "I created my magic weapon with extraordinary artisan feat." is invalid.

conversely, it is pretty easy to argue that the extraordinary artisan feat does not create a magic item in and of itself.
And it doesn't need to as that isn't what the requirement is as I pointed out in my previous post.

i did understand that point. i guess i'm just disagreeing with that as the correct RAI. nonetheless, it certainly could be interpreted that way. ^^
I figured as such, I however was arguing only RAW. As I said, I don't like trick but it is possible given how the rule was written.

:eh
but you could also argue that it doesn't help at all, since you can't create items with specifically the chosen feat (exceptional, extraordinary, or legendary artisan), and a total waste of a feat.

find an item that has one of those three feats as its prereq? i really really doubt there is one out there
Having the feat as a prereq to the item creation, only creating the item with that feat, specifically using the feat to create the item, and so on are entirely different requirements than what is actually written there.

All it says is "creating items with this feat" which is a rather ambiguous phrase, and if you look up the definition of the word 'with', you will find that among the multitude of definitions two are really relevant. Either you use the feat to create the item or the creation of the item needs to only include the feat. Either interpretation works for RAW, while the first is much more reasonable rule wise, it is not favored one way or the other from an English perspective.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 02:04:01 PM by Bastian »

Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2013, 11:35:11 PM »
I'd like to point out another way to get (nearly) unlimited crafting xp by using planar binding. The Kocrachon from Book of Vile Darkness has Liquid Pain as an SLA at will. The feat (which would be a perfect fit for the missing feat of the monster, if not, there's always PsyRef) Supernatural Transformation reduces the casting time of an SLA to a standard action (following standard Supernatural Ability rules). The Orthon from Fiendish Codex II is in constant pain and a perfect subject for the ability. If you can make the fairly reasonable charisma checks, this is a substantially lower cost method of generating liquid pain than the current one. It isn't quite as cheap as the Level Drain method but it does allow you to craft in the middle of a level. It also is more likely to be allowed than spell traps of non-offensive spells (that way lies tippyverse). Total cost before reduction assuming you use scrolls is 2,225 GP and requires you to be level 5, assuming you use the spells off the Demonologist's list. It also uses lesser devil labor, which is generally considered your best bet when dealing with evil outsiders. Something to consider at least.

Anyone have any improvements or ideas?

EDIT: Cost is 2,630 GP before crafting, assuming you have to hire a psion to PsyRef the Kocrachon for 405 GP.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 11:39:39 PM by Mithril Leaf »

Offline Bastian

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2013, 10:25:39 AM »
I'd like to point out another way to get (nearly) unlimited crafting xp by using planar binding. The Kocrachon from Book of Vile Darkness has Liquid Pain as an SLA at will. The feat (which would be a perfect fit for the missing feat of the monster, if not, there's always PsyRef) Supernatural Transformation reduces the casting time of an SLA to a standard action (following standard Supernatural Ability rules). The Orthon from Fiendish Codex II is in constant pain and a perfect subject for the ability. If you can make the fairly reasonable charisma checks, this is a substantially lower cost method of generating liquid pain than the current one. It isn't quite as cheap as the Level Drain method but it does allow you to craft in the middle of a level. It also is more likely to be allowed than spell traps of non-offensive spells (that way lies tippyverse). Total cost before reduction assuming you use scrolls is 2,225 GP and requires you to be level 5, assuming you use the spells off the Demonologist's list. It also uses lesser devil labor, which is generally considered your best bet when dealing with evil outsiders. Something to consider at least.

Anyone have any improvements or ideas?

EDIT: Cost is 2,630 GP before crafting, assuming you have to hire a psion to PsyRef the Kocrachon for 405 GP.
While using Supernatural Transformation the Kocrachon's SLA is a good idea, using the Orthon will not really help you all that much. It is not hard to put someone in pain and no matter how you do so the subject can only produce as much liquid pain as it has points of constitution.

Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2013, 11:06:00 PM »
I'd like to point out another way to get (nearly) unlimited crafting xp by using planar binding. The Kocrachon from Book of Vile Darkness has Liquid Pain as an SLA at will. The feat (which would be a perfect fit for the missing feat of the monster, if not, there's always PsyRef) Supernatural Transformation reduces the casting time of an SLA to a standard action (following standard Supernatural Ability rules). The Orthon from Fiendish Codex II is in constant pain and a perfect subject for the ability. If you can make the fairly reasonable charisma checks, this is a substantially lower cost method of generating liquid pain than the current one. It isn't quite as cheap as the Level Drain method but it does allow you to craft in the middle of a level. It also is more likely to be allowed than spell traps of non-offensive spells (that way lies tippyverse). Total cost before reduction assuming you use scrolls is 2,225 GP and requires you to be level 5, assuming you use the spells off the Demonologist's list. It also uses lesser devil labor, which is generally considered your best bet when dealing with evil outsiders. Something to consider at least.

Anyone have any improvements or ideas?

EDIT: Cost is 2,630 GP before crafting, assuming you have to hire a psion to PsyRef the Kocrachon for 405 GP.
While using Supernatural Transformation the Kocrachon's SLA is a good idea, using the Orthon will not really help you all that much. It is not hard to put someone in pain and no matter how you do so the subject can only produce as much liquid pain as it has points of constitution.

Damn, that's a real shame. At the very least you get easy access to Standard action liquid pain though. Just getting the Kocrachon and Supernatural Transformation is cheaper than a Magic Trap of Cure Light Wounds and a Magical Trap of Liquid Pain though. So it would still be a nice addition in any of the lawful evil hospital schemes. Just keep the room in magical darkness if the fact it's a devil becomes a problem.

Offline Soft Insanity

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2013, 01:01:10 PM »
I'm not seeing Forge Ring under crafting feats and you list it as "create ring" under Midguard dwarves in the same section.

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2013, 05:26:05 PM »
Dunno if this counts, but there are a whole host of spells that do the same effects as +1 enhancements, and cost less to get as a continual item than getting a +1 at later levels.
The pricing guidelines for making items are just that guidelines, not rules and actually make note that things should be priced similar to items already available so they can't really be included. Sorry.

Sort of a problem when those items have different effective costs based on what you apply them to. If I have a +1 weapon, and an item that grants Flaming to a weapon I wield, then it would have a different effective cost than a +4 weapon and that item. This makes the spell-based version significantly different from the Weapon Enhancements they are based off of.

Looking at it like a wand: Does a Blades of Fire wand cost more to craft if you use it on a +5 weapon than it does on a +1 weapon?
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Offline Arz

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2013, 06:26:25 PM »
Ancestral weapon/relic eliminates xp cost for sacrifice. Can still use most gp reducers, especially kaorti craft to give yourself an xp cost.

Offline ZombieGirl

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2014, 08:39:07 PM »
I know this thread hasnt been posted in for a while but I would like to suggest a cheaper alternative to the whole liquid ambrosia approach by way of a psionic boon trap.

I bring to you The Pleasure Machine:

Inflict Pain is a 2nd level psion/wilder power and functions identically to the Symbol of Pain spell with some small differences. It lasts 1 round/level instead of 10 minutes/level and it is a lower level power in comparison. This all ends up being a very good thing, both for the person stuck in the machine and for crafting purposes.

Symbol of Pain lasts for a minimum of 90 minutes, that's a -long- time. Inflict Pain lasts for a minimum of 3 rounds, much safer to use in case the individual wants to eventually leave it (though why they'd want to is be beyond anyone's understanding). Secondly Inflict Pain is much easier to resist, meaning once a person is 'done' with the machine, they can mentally resist its effects (though its only partially resisted). This makes Inflict Pain just much more convenient and safer to use all around, especially if these pleasure machines are going to play an important role in your character achieving his/her goals.

Psionic auto-resetting traps cost 250gp*(power point cost)*(power point cost+2).

Inflict Pain costs 3 power, thus the cost of a Psionic auto-resetting trap of Inflict Pain would cost 3750gp by itself. This is so much cheaper than an arcane version it aint even funny. Nevermind the fact that you could use metapsionics to link it to other powers too, but this is ill advised. The cost for psionic traps scales exponentially, so its best to combine multiple traps into one area than multiple powers into one trap.

I've taken this a step further, but it also requires some things that others might constitute as cheese, but i'll explain it anyway in case it interests anyone:

In my case, by way of the thrallherd (which includes things like the Chameleon Crafting feat, southern magician, etc. and me being a spell to power erudite, i've gotten my hands on an arcane version of Lesser Restoration and have included it into the Inflict Pain trap. This way the individual doesn't get exhausted/fatigued/killed from the endless pleasure they'll be feeling with nipple clamps. This turns the aforementioned 6k psionic boon trap into an 8,000gp psionic boon trap that triggers both Inflict Pain + Lesser Restoration (paladin version since it is lvl1).

I have also created a second psionic boon trap in the same vicinity to include Grease linked to Distilled Joy via the same method, with Synesthete again as the trigger. In total it costs 15,000gp for the second trap, but its a hell of a lot cheaper than a spell clock and you get exponentially more ambrosia out of it than a spell clock could ever hope to give you. This happens if you agree with the idea that regardless of how long it takes for a spell to go off normally, it still goes off in the following round due to it being linked to the first. Thus, Distilled Joy's casting time of 1 day turns into 1 standard action simply because its being forced to go off in the following round.

Using 1 trap to pull this off, it would cost a total of 45,000 gp
Using 2 traps to pull this off, it would cost a total of 23,000 gp
Using 3 traps to pull this off, it would cost a total of 3750+750+15000 = 19,500 gp (cheapest possible)

In total, it will cost 19,500 gp to create a 'pleasure machine' like this, not including crafting cost reduction feats or additional materials (such as the actual device you're attaching these traps to). I feel this method is far easier to achieve than the one listed in the guide and so much more economically friendly. :)

Edit: cause i fail at math
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 08:55:15 PM by ZombieGirl »

Offline Endarire

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Re: The Complete Cost Reduction Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2015, 05:40:35 PM »
[This Tower]'s link is broken.  Same with all links to the WotC pre-5E release.